Poll

Would you be interested in seeing wrap support implemented?

Yes, I would like to use it
8 (88.9%)
Yes, but only to play other people's levels that use it
0 (0%)
No, I'd rather NeoLemmix didn't support it
0 (0%)
I have no preference either way
1 (11.1%)

Total Members Voted: 9

Author Topic: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]  (Read 3629 times)

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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #15 on: May 15, 2019, 09:01:28 pm »
The main problem with the gimmick-implementation (which used the red rectangle) was, that one could never be sure where the lemming would reappear when moving out of the level boundary.

I get your point, though I feel like the minimap can maybe help make it a little easier to work out where the lemming would reappear?

While I can imagine levels being created that could make it tricky to keep track of where the lemming would go, I think in most well-designed levels, there are probably only limited areas where lemmings are expected to cross a wrapping level boundary.  So while I slightly prefer the "yellow rectangle", "true" implementation of wrapping, I can probably live with "red rectangle" as well.

Regardless of red/yellow rectangle, still not sure how much wrapping really adds to singleplayer level design. :-\

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #16 on: May 15, 2019, 09:23:06 pm »
Quote
Regardless of red/yellow rectangle, still not sure how much wrapping really adds to singleplayer level design.

That's another thing: Wrap was rarely used as a gimmick and I can see the benefits are way more multiplayer related than singleplayer. Even in Lix there don't seem to be that many Wrap singleplayer levels, while a good part of the multiplayer levels use it.

So it might be better to ignore Wrap and focus on things that enrich the variety and/or comfort of level design by a much larger margin.

Offline mobius

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #17 on: May 16, 2019, 10:42:20 pm »
Then we would need another way to tell the player that wrap is active though. ???

Sorry but if a player cannot tell the level wraps around... are they dumb? you scroll and it never stops, how long can it take someone to figure out what's going on? When they play for the first time sure, it takes some getting used to like everything but not after that. I never had a problem like this when playing lix. (single or multiplayer).

In any case if this was a feature I'd be okay with (but still not prefer) a rectangle to indicate boundaries but definitely insist this option (in one or any direction).

You can definitely do some interesting things with it, just look at some Lix levels or some from Revolution (bounce around the world, turn on tune in switch on). But I also agree it's not the biggest thing on my list at least that could add fun stuff to the game.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #18 on: May 16, 2019, 11:56:55 pm »
Then we would need another way to tell the player that wrap is active though. ???

Sorry but if a player cannot tell the level wraps around... are they dumb? you scroll and it never stops

IchoTolot is specifically talking about the "red rectangle" implementation where the scrolling doesn't wrap.  Scrolling stops at the level boundaries even with wrapping on, it's just the lemmings themselves (and the way they interact with terrain) that will honor the wrapping.  So you can't scroll past the boundaries, but you will see the lemming disappear and reappear on the opposite boundary as they walk across a boundary.  Another way to think of this is like the classic Pac-Man game--as you move off the top you reappear at the bottom, it doesn't scroll to make the area that was at the bottom to show up at the top.

In contrast, the "yellow rectangle" implementation is like in Lix where the scrolling also wraps, so indeed you can "scroll and it never stops".

Starting from an implementation that has no support for wrapping, it is likely less work to get to a "red rectangle" implementation where scrolling doesn't wrap and only the lemmings and physics do, versus the "yellow rectangle" implementation where scrolling also wraps around.

Offline mobius

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #19 on: May 17, 2019, 12:15:41 am »
oh yes, sorry I forgot about this. Just to clarify (not that I expect this will be implanted anytime soon anyway) I would be strongly against this [wrapping not visible via scrolling]. If there's going to be wrapping; it should be done like Lix; with infinite scrolling possible.
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Offline namida

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #20 on: March 22, 2020, 06:32:33 am »
I think it's time to consider whether or not wrap is going to happen. I've put a poll up to gauge how much interest there is in it - if there isn't much, we'll get the possibility ruled out now, and if there is enough, it can be added to the list of things to do before NL is wrapped up.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2020, 07:55:24 am »
Very much in favour, for 3 reasons:

1. It's a cool effect, and adds a whole new dimension to the game (quite literally) 8-) Having played through most of the wrap levels from Strato's Lemmicks, I'd probably say these are the most enjoyable of all the gimmick levels, and they take some solving! The puzzle potential is off the charts.

2. We should also have SuperLemming back as well (this isn't a reason for Wrap, I know, but I'm very tired)

3. It's possible anyway: invisible teleporter with a 1-frame animation will simulate it well enough. If it was implemented as an actual feature, this would be all the better because it would be much less fiddly to design the level, with the added bonus that it would no longer be seen as misleading because of the invisible teleporters.

Just to open up discussion on this third point: if implemented, should the wrap be visible?

I've endeavoured to make the (currently invisible) teleporters used in the Wraparound levels in Lemminas visible, purely in view of feedback that the use of invisible teleporters to simulate wrap is potentially misleading because wrap is not currently implemented. I've created a custom resizable object that basically just glows gently, and put it around the edge of the level like a frame. At first, I didn't like it and I wished I could just get away with using the darn invisible teleporters, but then after a few minutes of playing the level like this, and just looking at it... it's actually quite mesmerizing and cool, and makes it even more obvious to the player what's happening.

So, maybe visible wrap could work (and players would always know when it's been implemented)... but, non-visible wrap is also acceptable (EDIT - as long as it's made obvious in other ways, such as terrain placement, level title, etc), and would probably ultimately get my vote when it comes down to it.

Offline namida

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2020, 07:58:18 am »
Quote
2. We should also have SuperLemming back as well (this isn't a reason for Wrap, I know, but I'm very tired)

This will not be happening.

Quote
Just to open up discussion on this third point: if implemented, should the wrap be visible?

Absolutely. Ideally, the level would essentially scroll infinitely, repeating itself. Failing this, some very clear indication would be given, or perhaps the level display would not repeat itself infinitely but at least be tiled in a 3x3 pattern. An invisible wrap of any kind is out of the question and will not be happening.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2020, 08:10:01 am »
This will not be happening.

Poor SuperLemming. He got introduced to us, and then was never seen again... :crylaugh:

Absolutely. Ideally, the level would essentially scroll infinitely, repeating itself.

This could be interesting, but... I can't help but think that implementing the wrap in this way would, in effect, just manifest as an infinitely long (or tall) level with a repeating design.

I can't help but think it would be far better to have it as one-screen, but the lemmings simply walk off one side and back in the other. For this, the wrap would have to be visible. I've attached my custom (resizable) "edge_glow" object so you can give it a look: I recommend making it so that only about 2-4px are visible around the edge, but by all means try it with the full 8px width and see what you think.

(N.B. If you don't like the colour, it can be very easily recoloured and be made more transparent, etc.)

Offline Dullstar

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2020, 09:12:27 am »
I don't have strong feelings about whether or not to implement wrap, but I would say that infinite scrolling makes it easier to keep track of stuff happening around the level boundaries. I would be against a wrap feature without infinite scrolling.

My expectations would be infinite scrolling and the ability to toggle horizontal and vertical wrapping independently of each other.

In the editor, on wrap levels, terrain pieces overlapping the boundaries should probably appear on the other side, though I'm not sure infinite scrolling would really make sense in the editor.

As many features go, it's hard for me to say if I would use it or not. If it's there and I think of an idea that would benefit from it, I'll use it, but generally I try to avoid making levels purely for the sake of using a particular feature, since historically those tend to be my worst ones (they often don't reach a level of quality I consider acceptable to release anymore). The only reason I created Shimmier Sort for a contest, for example, was because I had a vague level idea that was already close to one of the contest rules. In past contests where I set out from the beginning to create a level for the contest rules, my levels felt very forced - so I don't do that anymore.

Offline WillLem

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2020, 09:27:44 am »
Could infinite scrolling be optional, i.e. a checkbox for "Infinite Scrolling For Levels With Wrap Effect" in the F3 options?

Offline namida

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2020, 10:10:20 am »
I'm definitely open to a user-side option to turn on or off the infinite scrolling. If I can implement it, I want infinite scrolling to at least be available, but yeah - I'm okay with an option to disable it.

Quote
My expectations would be infinite scrolling and the ability to toggle horizontal and vertical wrapping independently of each other.

Yes, I also envision it as the two dimensions being set individually.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #27 on: March 23, 2020, 07:05:50 pm »
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Having played through most of the wrap levels from Strato's Lemmicks, I'd probably say these are the most enjoyable of all the gimmick levels, and they take some solving! The puzzle potential is off the charts.

Thanks for the kind words, WillLem! :thumbsup: Since the Lemmicks levels require both horizontal and vertical wrap, I'm happy to hear namida is considering to enable both independently!

In fact, the wrap gimmick and its puzzle potential was one of the main things that got the idea for Lemmicks started. I actually liked the gimmick so much that I had already tried emulating it in version 10.13 before, in the Pit Lems level "Wraparound revival". It worked in a similar way to your Lemminas level, but both vertically and horizontally (and the teleporters were visible :P ).

So yeah, if it wasn't clear enough, I fully support any re-introduced gimmick we can get! :thumbsup: And I'll happily convert my Lemmicks levels from the Circular rank (=those featuring wrap) to New Formats if this happens! ;)

(I'll probably have to hand these levels from one version of the editor to the next, i.e. from 1.43 to 10.13, from there to 12.6.5, then cleanse levels, then convert to the newest version, but eventually, I'll get there! :D I didn't do this earlier because I thought there was no way these levels would ever become playable in New Formats, obviously...)

"Turn this club around", the only pre-existing song level not featured on the Encore rank from Lemmings World Tour, could then be added to Pit Lems remastered, together with all the other wrap levels! :thumbsup: (It won't be added to World Tour in hindsight, since wrap is not possible in Old Formats, and I want to maintain both versions of this particular pack and keep them as comparable as possible.)
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Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #28 on: March 23, 2020, 11:25:59 pm »
I actually liked the gimmick so much that I had already tried emulating it in version 10.13 before, in the Pit Lems level "Wraparound revival". It worked in a similar way to your Lemminas level, but both vertically and horizontally

Wraparound Part II also has vertical wrap as well as horizontal. ;P

But yes, looking forward to this getting implemented officially rather than having to do the fiddly teleporter workaround!

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Wrap? [DISCUSSION] [PLAYER]
« Reply #29 on: March 23, 2020, 11:44:39 pm »
I'm a little surprised namida didn't outright drop this based on implementation complexity, though perhaps it's helped by having previously implemented (even if long since removed) in some limited form as a gimmick?  Based on Simon's comments on how the implementation went for Lix, even the variant without infinite scrolling seems pretty non-trivial.  Even if you forbid terrain and objects in the level from straddling the bonndaries, the terrain added or removed by lemmings skills you'd probably still want to honor the wraparound.

If anything, feels like a double-speed kind of skill (which I seem to recall namida already ruled out on grounds of implementation and testing difficulties) might be easier implementation-wise--you'd more or less basically just run the regular physics one extra time in the frame for the subset of lemmings that possess double-speed.