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Messages - namida

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L3D also allows the assignment of permanent skills while sliding. I could see valid arguments either way on this one for NL.

Engine Bugs / Suggestions / Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« on: April 07, 2020, 07:30:43 pm »
Some updates to the consideration list:

- I've moved both kinds of projectile skills to the "strong contenders" list
- I've noted the Rocketer (suggested by Crane in another topic) and the Creator (with the caveat it would need a better name) as a "willing to consider" - I will note that neither seemed very popular so they're not likely to happen, though
- I've moved Runner to "ruled out", the more I think about it / read discussion about it the more I'm convinced that, even if it has "coolness" appeal, I don't believe it has enough puzzle potential (outside of finnicky execution levels) to really compete with most of the other ideas being raised

I will also reiterate (or state for the first time - I'm not sure if I actually posted this, or just thought it) that I may be willing to consider multiple skills if there's considerable overlap in their implementation, while also not having too much overlap in functionality. A projectile constructive skill + a projectile destructive skill that share the same arc, and just have different visuals + different effects on impact, is a perfect example of such. I'd still need to be convinced both are worthwhile though - this is only leniency for the "implementation difficulty" side of the decision, not the whole decision.

NeoLemmix Main / Re: Objects from Lemmings 3D - viable for NeoLemmix?
« on: April 07, 2020, 07:21:21 pm »
My main justification for why we would need trampolines in NeoLemmix is that I've found out Jumpers often need to be provided in huge quantities (20+). Lemmings 2: The Tribes reflects that, as well.

Before we consider this, do you have an example that needs 20+ lemmings to become jumpers, and couldn't just eg. build across the gap instead, or not have the gap in the first place, or use a teleporter, or reduce the lemming count (or perhaps, save requirement) so the quantity of jumpers needed isn't huge, etc?

Engine Bugs / Suggestions / Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« on: April 06, 2020, 10:57:30 pm »
Do you seriously think this will fly with the people who voted for the removal of radiation and slowfreeze? :P (And the removal of timed bombers much earlier...)

Actually, I can see why this might be considered acceptable even to people who didn't like radiation / slowfreeze / timed bombers - the terrain isn't permanent, but it still gets created exactly where you assign the skill. You don't have to mess around with "where do I start the assignment, so that the lemming will be in the right place when it ends?", which was the biggest argument against all of those. I'm not particularly keen on this idea, but I wouldn't immediately dismiss it as "not a good fit" in the same way timed bombers / etc are.

The SuperSwimmer, on the other hand, is as Strato says - essentially just an alternate-animation platformer (or builder, if they move upwards too), and thus not going to happen.

Engine Bugs / Suggestions / Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« on: April 06, 2020, 07:36:29 pm »
All I've stated is that 12.11 is the earliest this skill could happen. I haven't ruled out that it will be later.

Challenges / Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« on: April 06, 2020, 01:14:37 am »
Here's my replays for MazuLems 1 & 2. The 2 diggers for MazuLems 2 is also 4-bashers.

NeoLemmix Main / Re: Three Things I Love About NeoLemmix
« on: April 05, 2020, 10:06:48 pm »
Thanks for catching me up on the history there, Proxima: I wonder who chose the 8 new skills originally added to the set, then?

They were entirely my own choices, mostly based on "this sounds cool" logic rather than giving real proper thought as to how useful they'd be. Fortunately, most of them turned out to be at least fairly useful; although in all honestly I'd say that if I weren't averse to culling skills under any circumstances, the Disarmer would probably be gone by now (and possibly the Stacker too; but the rest would survive).

Does it give an actual error message, or does it just suddenly exit? If there's an error message, what does it say?

NeoLemmix Main / Re: EXPERIMENTAL BUILD: Jumper
« on: April 05, 2020, 08:51:21 pm »
Both of the above issues should be fixed in the update uploaded just now. :)

Level Design / Re: Splat and danger hatches: yay or nay?
« on: April 05, 2020, 04:19:15 am »
Extremely high hatches can be used to prevent backroutes in some cases: for example, if there is an updrafted teleporter where the lemmings land, you can't build over the teleporter because then they'll splat on the bridge. There are probably better examples that that, but hopefully you get my point.

And that is a great example of when you should use a splat start. Just in terms of backroutes though, you'd have to be careful that the player can't bypass it by placing the builder precisely.

SuperLemmini / Re: Feature requests for next version of SuperLemmini
« on: April 04, 2020, 09:20:38 pm »
Ideally, I would prefer SuperLemmini to promote general inclusion: so, there'd be no reason a relatively even-minded player who may prefer NeoLemmix couldn't also play and enjoy a pack of levels in SuperLemmini occasionally

Jacks of all trades are generally masters of none. This would result in an engine not ideal for anyone, in a landscape where most preferences do already have an ideal engine.

Me and my gf recently grabbed a couple of Worms games off Steam. We're already familiar with the series in general (we've got Battlegrounds on PS4 via PS Plus and we play it every now and then), but we grabbed two - the newest one (Worms WMD), and the newest 3D one (I forget the exact name but it had "Mayhem" in it).

WMD is very good - it seems to take the general gameplay of Battlegrounds and improve on it well; although I do have to say I much prefer Battlegrounds' UI. On the other hand, I wasn't so impressed by the 3D one - definitely got to give them credit for trying, and some impressive technical achievements to make it work, but ultimately I just feel Worms doesn't translate very well to 3D in practice - as much as it sounds like "Worms 3D" would be an awesome idea in theory.

NeoLemmix Main / Re: Hidden objects in NL, part 2
« on: April 04, 2020, 07:34:09 pm »
I'd generalize people's philosophy around no hidden stuff as more an express desire to not be visually misled or surprised.  Perhaps you don't agree or don't feel as strongly about it as others, sure that's understandable.  Clear physics mode will definitely take away the lie or the surprise, but then whatever you wanted to accomplish by hiding the thing, you are not accomplishing it anymore since it isn't hidden anymore.  So what exactly did you accomplish?

One case here can be where hiding is a side effect of something else - perhaps for example, the level creator wants a setup where you must dig a tunnel to the exit. However, in such cases, usually you can make the exit (or other object) at least partially visible, enough that its presence will be noticed (but the trigger area itself remains buried). For example, LPIII's once-per-rank level - the exit is buried in terrain, but the top of it sticks out so you can see where it is.

(Ironically, this level also gives an example of bad use of hidden objects which is preserved for historical reasons - it contains a hidden teleporter, hinted at only by the existance of a not-hidden-but-VERY-hard-to-spot receiver).

Level Design / Re: Splat and danger hatches: yay or nay?
« on: April 04, 2020, 07:06:49 pm »
I don't see them as an "avoid at all costs" thing, although they can be annoying.

The "no issue" type can also be combined - perhaps you need to let the first lemming go ahead as a floater, then the second one becomes a stoner, so that the third doesn't walk off a bridge before the first one finishes building it (which if there wasn't that gap via the 2nd being the stoner, he would). This could turn into a larger puzzle because the next question is how to get that floater to somewhere (maybe near another entrance) where it looks like the floater would be needed. etc.

"Floater frenzy" type levels should be avoided as much as possible, or if they can't be avoided or turned into a "low save" (because the "floater frenzy" setup is also important to the level in other ways - as in, important to the puzzle working, not just "I feel this should be part of the level just because I say so"), the lemming count should be kept to to the minimum that makes it still work. Alternatively, if the only reason is "I want to force all lemmings to be floaters / gliders from the start", just pre-assign the skill in question.

If dealing with the fatal fall is limited to "assign floater to first lemming (or first two lemmings, one blocks), and build", outside of easy open-ended levels, it's pointless - not to mention potentially a backroute risk due to the extra skills - and the entrance should be lowered. The fatal fall should in some way play into the overall puzzle (or alternatively, dealing with it - in and of itself - should be a puzzle) rather than just being there "for the sake of it".

Open-ended levels that include a splat / danger start as one of their obstacles is fine, IMO.

NeoLemmix Main / Re: Hidden objects in NL, part 2
« on: April 03, 2020, 07:13:47 pm »
precise skill placement [...] a complete non-issue, and yet it still vehemently rejects these things as being an occasionally valid part of the game.

When a design absolutely requires precision, well, let the solution be precise.

When a design doesn't need precision, why force the player to be overly precise?

and hidden objects

The puzzle will never gain anything from hiding, thus don't hide.

-- Simon

WillLem is coming from a different position here: One where he's interested more in the action / exploration aspect, rather than the puzzle.

In that context, while it doesn't appeal to me, and doesn't fit NL's (or for that matter, Lix's) philosophy; it's not impossible to see where he's coming from.

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