Quote from: bsmith on June 15, 2015, 02:36:04 AM
How is the next host decided anyways?

If you would like to host one, then it's you!

(wait, how did I got here? )

-- Simon

Thanks. I'll try to put it in the tooltips for now.

You're making a reasonable case against the buttons. Then, tutorial + tooltips seems to be the best we can do, other than fat in-your-face advertisements that obscure the main play area.

I will make two options: one to show tooltips, one to show skills on hotkeys. This was demanded a couple years ago already, I should have done it earlier.

-- Simon

Quote from: namida on June 13, 2015, 04:20:55 PM
increased the "a gimmick of your choice in NeoLemmix" to two gimmicks

-- Simon

Excellent ideas.

QuoteGoals: Each team scores 10 x Chasers x (Beaters + 1) x 2 if at least one Keeper.

How does the 'if' connect to the equation? I assume this means "stuff x2 if at least one keeper, stuff x1 if no keeper."

-- Simon

Quote from: Nepster on June 10, 2015, 07:29:07 PM
why namida turned out to be the most popular answer to Q10? He explicitely announced that he would not be the host this time!

Nobody else underlines.

And namida liked the second-answers round, and would have liked more participation on that.

Thanks for hosting!

-- Simon

In late July/early August 2015, geoo will be back in Germany. We're aiming for a meetup in Göttingen, with Ichotolot and me.

Nepster, you're also from Germany. Do you live reasonably close to us?

Are there any other users who'd like to come around? We've already tried to persuade Akseli, with limited success:

<Simon> I'm not too sure whether Akseli would like to visit us, his first gut reaction to me meeting Ichotolot was "how can you be sure the guy won't attack you?"
<geoo> We could turn your cellar into a sauna and lock him up in there for 7 days
<Simon> or he could learn C++
<geoo> yes, let's offer a free C++ or D course to Akseli, he'll definitely bait and then we banish him into the sauna
<geoo> damn should have said that off the record

You do not have to be a programmer! We can teach you will have a great time no matter what!

<Akseli> good stuff in the logs of the morning
<geoo> haha Akseli, are you coming over?
<Akseli> wait, I'll finish my porridge and answer after that
<geoo> that's a yes! welcome, it's gonna be fun
<Akseli> haha
<Akseli> I haven't been travelling for ages

-- Simon

Koan list only.

White koans:
AAA(A*)   DOGSSS    GAMING  MIRE      SPAM
ABC       DUG       GGG     QQQQ      SSS
AKALAZAM  FIQQ      GITSMH  QQQQFIRE  SSSSSS
AMEN      FIRE      GNIGMA  QQQQQQQQ  STR
AYZ       FIREQQQQ  GOD     Q{16}     S{9}
CLAM      FREAK     GYMHIT  REQQ      YAZ
DDD       GAM       MEAN    RIFE      YIU
DIG       GAME      MEGA    SITE      ZYA
DOG       GAMERS    MIGHTS  SMH
DOGAAA    GAMESS    MIGHTY  SMIGHT

Black koans:
A          DOGCC      FIREQQQ      ING                 OA        SITES
AA         DOGE       FIREQUISITE  KLZM                OL        SOMETHINGDDD
BAC        DOGENIGHT  FIRER        LIX                 POOL      SPAMGOD
BBB        DOGF       FIRES        LOOP                Q         SS
BBBB       DOGI       FIREY        MEANT               QQ        SSSS
BBBBB      DOGRST     FIRST        MIGHT               QQQ       SSSSS
BBBBBB     DOGS       FREAKKK      MIGHTYCC            QQQQQ     TE
BCA        DOGSS      FREAKY       MIGHTYDDD           QQQQQQ    THMIG
BCD        DOGSSSS    FRQQQQ       MIGHTYDOGGY         Q{12}     TTT
BLACK      DOGT       GAMER        MIGHTYFREAKY        Q{65536}  TTTT
BLACKPOOL  DOGTOR     GAMERST      MIGHTYGGGGGG        Q{65537}  TTTTT
CCC        EEE        GAMES        MIGHTYMIGHTY        RK        TW
DDDD       EERIE      GAMESSS      MIGHTYMIGHTYMIGHTY  RMEGA     WHITE
DDDDD      ET         GIT          MIGHTYQQQQ          RS        Y
DDDDDD     FFF        HHH          MIGHTYS             RST       ZIX
DOGA       FIGHT      HOT          MIGHTYSSS           RTS
DOGAA      FIR        HOTLIX       NIGHT               S
DOGC       FIREQ      HPT          NS                  SERIF

(x)* is a repetition of (x) 0 or more times.
(x){n} is a repetition of (x) exactly n times.

-- Simon

The general rules of the game disallow the empty koan. It's not part of the koanspace.

The reason is pragmatic: In the tabletop game, a marked empty koan looks like a stray marking stone.

Allowing the empty koan is a minor variant, and it doesn't affect the game. If you want to test the empty koan, then do it. Secret rules can be evaluated on the empty koan in the normal fashion. ("The X is Y" fails if there are no X, or if there are more than one X, or if there is exactly one X that is not Y.)

-- Simon

Right. Edited.

My instinct was to avoid a weird mix of regular expressions and math, but it's probably the only concise notation. >_> Let c be a letter, n >= 3. Then c{n}, which denotes n times the token c, is white iff n divides id0(c). This is true even for A, B, C, because no number >= 3 divides 1 or 2, and all numbers divide 0.

Having this for same-letter koans, there is obviously some magic happening at 3, and some method to mangle non-same-letter koans. The given example koans for anagram-changes-buddha were 3 letters long.

New koans:

SOMETHINGDDD
MIGHTYDDD
MIGHTYCC
ABC
BAC
AYZ
ZYA
YAZ
BCD

-- Simon

No?

Let id0 be the function on single letters that maps A to 0, B to 1, C to 2, ..., Z to 25.

Then Proxima's half-rule states: For each letter c that is not A, a koan that contains exactly n >= 3 copies of c [and nothing else, EDIT Simon after namida's reply] is buddha iff id0(c) divides n. Equivalently, that koan is budda iff there exists a natural number m with id0(c) * m = n.

The marked koans violate this, because the koan BBB is black. (Everything of the form B{n} with n >= 3 appers to be black.) Also, namida mentioned there exist two letters, such that koans consisting only of copies of that letter are always black.

Noes, I can't read properly. n divides id0(c) is the claim. That would make B and C the two letters that make only black same-letter koans.

-- Simon

Hi, yes, you're welcome to make many posts in a row, each is valuable and appreciated much. Thanks.

Ideas for directonal-select buttons: Right, it's what you've suggested. I imagine the button to take one click, then either be active until it's deactivated, or be good for only one assignment. For more fine-grained and fast assignments, the user should learn the hotkeys, as usual. The dead-space problem you're suggesting is very real. (To compare, skill buttons never become dead space, since they show information.)

Thinking about removing modifiable spawin interval: The idea isn't as far-fetched as it sounds. L1 and ONML have Flow Control, which is a single level out of 220 to be designed entirelly around it, and the harder WAFD need it too. Killing only one level is acceptable for the greater good.

The critical opinion is how player-modifiable spawn interval helps execution, and people have reported 5 to 10 levels from the 240-level community pack where it's integral to the solution. When culture has grown over the design, the culture locks the design in place.

(To compare this with one-way arrows: I don't have one-way arrows either, because I deem them unnatural and weird to draw. That doesn't stir up opinions as much as culling the spawn interval. A few level ideas won't be possible, but the level design space remains wide open still. It's harder to take them out than not introducing them in the first place.)

Exact setting of spawn interval: I've taken this as a feature request. The spawn interval in-game buttons could be replaced by a single button. This pauses the game and opens a modal dialog (hehe) where the user can precisely set the spawn interval. Or something. But precise control is a must, if we want to keep the user-changable spawn interval at all.

Tutorials to introduce directional select: We have this in the batter tutorial, and we want to make a dedicated tutorial level at some time. The longer the tutorial session becomes, the fewer people will play through it all. OTOH, even if it's discoverable from the main UI, people might disregard it as hard-to-use via buttons, and not bother to learn it either.

Tutorial for right-click scrolling: This is new even to players who have played other Lemmings-like games. Those won't play through tutorials, but would need to know it still. The only alternative to tutorials seems to be aggressive advertizing for RMB-scrolling whenever the user scrolls a lot with the screen edges.

Button for right-click scrolling: Very interesting, could be doable. Let's see what ideas this spawns.

As last resort, tinker with edge scrolling: RMB scrolling and egde scrolling can be selected independently in the options menu. Per default, both are active. I want the user's instinct to lead them to an implemented scrolling method. I could make the edge-scrolling speed option faster by default, so RMB-scrolling becomes less of an improvement. Alternatively, I could disable edge scrolling by default, but I'd rather not do that.

Mantra about GUI design: Correct, hiding non-critical stuff in menus is normal, and the functions discussed in this thread are too time-critical for a menu. The hotkey/RMB is the correct trigger. The button would only be for discoverability. Of course, this leads to the question: If discoverability is the problem, not having the button per se, there is maybe a different solution. Excellent push into an important, fresh direction.

Anyway, thanks for your valuable input, also for the IRC discussion. I have had guests over in real life, I'd have participated more otherwise!

-- Simon

Thanks. Yeah, I feel too that something crispy is missing for the RMB scrolling.

With the release rate (spawn interval), I'm most concerned about whether it eases execution, or even is flat-out required for the solution. If you consider it useful here, then I'd rather leave it in.

If its only use were saving time, turbo-fast-forward >>> is often enough, even without minimal spawn interval = fastest release rate.

-- Simon

Right, many functions don't need buttons on the main in-game interface: Sound, music, save/load replay, etc., even if they react to hotkeys during the game.

Super-important stuff gets a button on the main playing screen, and less important stuff gets a switch in some in-game menu. Such a menu isn't needed often, so it can be bigger and clunkier than the in-game panel. In-game hotkeys can be described there, which makes it useful as a help screen, too.

-- Simon

Hi folks,

while ranting about Neolemmix's undiscoverable keyboard controls, I have remembered the corresponding design gaps in Lix.

• Definition (discoverable): A program function, or user interface element, is discoverable if new users will stumble upon it during their normal use of the program. Curiosity will lead them to trying the function, and observing how it works.
  

Any application with a graphical user interface needs this. My usual recommendation is to make a graphical button for the function, and inform about functionaliy or hotkeys in a tooltip.

More important functions should be more discoverable. You can get away with putting less important functions in drop-down menus or the like. What's outright bad, however, is to hide useful functionalities only on hotkeys. Triggering this function by accident will seem like a bug. If the user learns about this function at all, it's from word of mouth, or study of the documentation, which nobody wants to read.

vi can get away with its ton of undiscoverable hotkeys, because it's a text-based-interface editor, not one with a graphical interface.

Lix has these undiscoverable functions:

• Right-click scrolling. Hold right mouse button (RMB), then move the mouse around to scroll. This is much faster and more precise than the scrolling at the screen edges. While RMB is held, the cursor shape gets four little arrows. But it's not 100 % obvious what those arrows mean, and many users don't press RMB at all.
• Directional select. Hold a key to assign only to left-lookers, hold a different key to assign only to right-lookers. This makes singleplayer much nicer, and is absolutely critical in multiplayer.

Idea for RMB scrolling: When the user scrolls at the screen edges, shape the cursor into the four little arrows, too. This is a minor improvement, we probably need more.

Idea for dir select: This needs to be at least as prominent as the release-rate changers. Do we even need those? In multiplayer, it's forbidden anyway to change the rate. How many levels use that in singleplayer? I feel it's mainly panel clutter, and it's much less important than directional select. If necessary, I can try to fit both functions on the panel.

-- Simon

Rant dump for completeness. Nothing in it is urgent.

[17:09] <SimonN> wtf, neolemmix has too many undiscoverable keys
[17:10] <SimonN> Mantra: for each function that you bind to a key, make an on-screen button with the same functionality, maybe give it a tooltip with the hotkey
[17:10] <SimonN> You can break this guideline for really, really obvious things like ESC menu
[17:10] <SimonN> even for that, some games have an OSD button
[17:12] <SimonN> discoverable == you will somehow find the thing during your normal use of the program, and curiosity will lead you to trying it. A row of OSD buttons is very discoverable
[17:13] <SimonN> the mantra is broken in Lix with directional select, and that is bad, ideas are welcome on how to teach the newb (tutorial not sufficient)
[17:14] <SimonN> and no no no, don't display hints in a modal dialog box, modal boxes suck unless they're preventing you from data loss
[17:14] <SimonN> (modal == popup that forbids clicks to everything behind it)

-- Simon