Closing this because Benedict (new player, I exchanged some email with him) got it running perfectly on the Mac.

I'm happy that Lix compiles and runs well on the Mac now, even though we've never found the true reason for this #381. SiegeLord was happy to chalk an Allegro problem up to a known 2018 bug on OSX. Given that, I'm content closing this, hoping that the same Mac bugfix also fixed this #381.

If anybody runs into troubles on Mac again, feel free to file new bugs!

-- Simon

It's likely that the designers of [Lemmings 3D and Lemmings Revolution wanted to bring it [variable spawn interval] back because they simply preferred it being there.

More likely is that the L3D and LR designers were told to remake L1, and copied L1's methods of physics interaction without questioning anything.

After all, they weren't DMA. DMA designed L2 and L3 with fixed spawn interval, then stopped making Lemmings. DMA's Lemmings either have fast-forward or variable spawn interval, never both.

If you add additional features that are only used a few times, you're requiring the player to learn more stuff, only to forget about it again (and then maybe not think of it anymore when it's finally needed again, or conversely try to apply it everywhere without needing it). It can often feel tacked on.

Yeah, this is my reasoning too. In the end, it's a design decision.

With "additional features", we mean features of Lix's physics here, not features that help the player tell the computer what the player has in mind.

Rationalization for Lix's design to fix SI per level: VSI wouldn't pull its weight as a game mechanic: VSI would be a third way of control, next to skills and nuke. Diluting the fundamental design here -- everything happens via skills wherever possible -- would need far more support than mere player convenience.

That said, I'm still going to play Lix and maybe I'll at least see the benefits of its exclusion from the game, even if it's not my personal preference.

That's my hope, too!

-- Simon

I split off everything about the spawn interval into Spawn Interval fixed per level, 2020.

Forestidia created Progress to next level without getting back to menu, thanks!

WillLem's graphical lag is from the old machine, his new machine runs Lix well. That's great to hear.

Can the Lix Runner be cancelled with a Walker? Also, does it speed up all skills or just the walking state?

Cannot be cancelled. It's a permanent ability like climber.

The runner walks faster, and the runner jumps higher and further. Nothing else is accelerated.

-- Simon

Right, this is fixed per level. This was a substantial design decision. Rodents are controlled via skill assignments, and a player-variable spawn interval ("VSI") would be alien to this core game idea.

Reply by WillLem: Would it? I disagree here, and I also think it's a shame that the makers of Lemmings never developed the idea of using RR control except for in that one level in Oh No!.

Tradition is a weak argument: We aren't trying to replicate Lemmings 1. There is already vanilla Lemmix for that... To be helpful for the player is not a good argument for a game rule either.

Reply by WillLem: Neither of these would be my main arguments for its inclusion. I would turn mainly to its tactical potential, not to mention its usefulness as a way of speeding up the release of the crowd generally. It's not "helpful" in the same way a player-assist tool is, it's more... immersive, I suppose; it puts the player in charge of all facets of the game, not just the skill assignments, which opens up more possibilities for inventing solutions.

I dislike too many levels with only one solution: this style of play gets very frustrating after a while, and you start to feel like you might as well be playing Sudoku. It's good to vary it up a bit, give the player options.

Hmm. I feel there must be better game designs than either VSI or runner to bunch the rodents.

Reply by WillLem: I appreciate your wanting to find alternative solutions to this idea rather than just cull VSI. But - why cull VSI at all if you acknowledge that it has some use? Why not offer VSI and Runners? Then, level designers & players alike can choose which method to use and when...

That's true and release rate certainly wasn't my favorite cull, but at the same time, even in games like NeoLemmix where it remained, how often does one run into levels where changing the release rate is actually used for puzzle purposes?

Reply by WillLem: It comes up in Lemminas a few times, particularly for time-related talisman solutions. I'm always looking for creative ways to include it in levels without making them too difficult. I suspect that, as time goes on, I'll get better at this, and notice its absence from Lix all the more. That said, I'm still going to play Lix and maybe I'll at least see the benefits of its exclusion from the game, even if it's not my personal preference.

though it did make a comeback in Lemmings 3D and Lemmings Revolution.

Reply by WillLem: It seems to be a preference-based thing, then, rather than an essential part of the game. It's likely that the designers of these games wanted to bring it back because they simply preferred it being there.

Ironically, I've always felt such an alternative actually makes the goal of bunching lemmings more fiddly to execute compared to a release rate change.

Reply by WillLem: Exactly! It seems to run counter to the philosophy that Lemmings should be fuss-free, execution-wise! Who wants to mess about assigning Runners to bunch Lemmings when you can just get the desired gap with the click of a -/+ button? That said, I suppose it does mean that you can bunch them in places other than out of the entrance hatch, and in a slightly more controlled (albeit fiddly) way.

Still, whatever its effectiveness and pitfalls may prove to be in multiplayer, it sounds reasonable to at least offer as one more thing the player can use or not use as they see fit during multiplayer games.

Reply by WillLem: This underlines my philosophy when it comes to Lemmings, and indeed gaming in general: give the player the option, and let them decide whether or not it ought to be part of the game. Of course, I realise this isn't always practical or necessary, but it's a good rule of thumb in that it generally encourages positive and inclusive design choices.

Just to be clear, it has been discussed whether NL should cull them too, but the decision was that it isn't going to happen. That definitely isn't going to change now

Reply by WillLem: I should coco, too!

Moved from thread: WillLem's thoughts about Lix

- No release rate control - or if there is, it isn't obvious

Right, this is fixed per level. This was a substantial design decision. Rodents are controlled via skill assignments, and a player-variable spawn interval ("VSI") would be alien to this core game idea.

Considering a Lix player who has not played Lemmings, would they miss VSI, or feel that the design is incomplete in this area?

Tradition is a weak argument: We aren't trying to replicate Lemmings 1. There is already vanilla Lemmix for that.

To be helpful for the player is not a good argument for a game rule either. It would also be helpful to pause lixes in place arbitrarily, or to have unlimited walker skill, or to teleport up to three lixes per level. The assisting tools such as framestepping should be powerful indeed, but not the gameplay mechanics; the mechanics should make a reasonable whole.

I find the floater and runner weak, too. Were I to start from scratch without preexisting levels by our community, I would cut both of these. I'm sure we can do better, the slider is already more interesting than the floater.

VSI was easier to cull than either of these two. And at the time of the VSI cull, the runner's existence was one of my main arguments for the VSI cull, thus I didn't consider the runner's cull for a while.

Ironically, I've always felt such an alternative actually makes the goal of bunching lemmings more fiddly to execute compared to a release rate change.

Interesting. I agree that the runeer doesn't feel nice to cluster, either.

But I would have thought that the bunching would be much easier because you can bunch exactly where you need it. I guess the runner's permanent future speed, after you achieved the bunching, throws wrenches in your ideas?

The bunching via VSI feels so remote to everything else we do with the rodents. It must be planned far in advance. Hmm. I feel there must be better game designs than either VSI or runner to bunch the rodents.

-- Simon

If the push is really this strong, I can reconsider the end-of-level box.

Still, I should first make it much more catchy in the level browser, printing the results where the preview would be. We can then argue how much this helps for the flow.

-- Simon

Link to the video.
Hope this is helpful! Here's a summary of the key points in the video:

This is incredibly valuable. It's very hard to observe first-time use otherwise. Thanks!

- Gameplay seems a little bit slow, I ended up playing with Fast Forward on quite a lot

This comes from lag.

Lix is supposed to run at 60 fps with 15 phyu/s. You seem to reach 15 to 20 fps and roughly 12 phyu/s, which increase to 15 to 20 phyu/s (matching fps) with the normal fast-forward (intended to run at 1 phyu/frame, or 60 phyu/s). Turbo-fast-forward performs 9 phyus per frame.

This is a problem. I don't know why you have lag this bad. Is your machine 15 years old?

If it's a reasonably current Windows 10 machine, maybe the lag comes from outdated Allegro 5 libraries that I ship with Lix. I should update those, they're already 3-4 years old. I'll tell you once I do that!

Question: what are "Scale 150/200 and 300" for?

Depending on your resolution, the game wants to load its icons at 100% (= base data/images directory), 150%, 200%, or 300% magnification. It picks the largest that still fits. This depends mainly on the vertical component of the resolution.

There is much more to reply to. Until later!

-- Simon

Even if it's Lix's lack of proprietary Lemmings assets, it would be nice to know for sure about that motivation to not try Lix. Then I can leave this thread behind in mind.

I still hope to learn about deeper issues than purely the assets.

-- Simon