Glitches in Lemmings (old thread)

[Clam]

Following on from discussions in the latest iteration of the challenge thread, it looks like the time has come to share our knowledge of glitches, rather than keeping them to ourselves. My reasoning is as follows: By now, most if not all of the glitches in the original Lemmings game (at least on DOS/Amiga) have been discovered. Most people know some of them, and a lucky few (I include myself as a recent addition to this category) are aware of pretty much all of them. Not only does this mean that some of us can build levels or invent challenges that can't be solved without this knowledge, but (IMHO more importantly) designers continue to build levels that are rendered almost trivial by some glitch or other. As such, I would like to compile a list of all the known glitches in the Lemmings games, including different ports and also sequels. Perhaps the sequels could have their own threads - we'll see how this works out.

How do we define a glitch? I'd say the word describes any behaviour that is unexpected given a good knowledge of the basic game mechanics - i.e. something the original designers wouldn't have known about. This definition probably isn't watertight, but we can decide on a case-by-case basis what is a glitch and what isn't.

Feel free to discuss anything glitch-related too - this sort of discussion has been sorely lacking in the past.

I'll start with some that have been posted before.


DOS/Amiga Lemmings

• Giant Leap - Jumper lemming climbs up through a wall after the gap it was about to jump into is closed up by a builder
• Blocker pushing lemmings through a wall
• Nuke glitch - When you nuke the level the game calculates your percentage based on the number of lemmings that have entered the level, rather than the total number in the level
• Miner falling through terrain while leaving it intact
• Climbing up when stuck inside terrain
• Miner crossing 1-pixel gaps
• Climber comes away from the wall slightly when it hits a ceiling and falls
• Blockers make steel areas destructible
• Climbers transition to walkers for one frame when the terrain they are climbing on is removed - you can then make them build in mid-air
• Right one-way walls cannot be mined
• Various steel-destruction glitches where the terrain that the lemming tries to destroy is not part of the steel area. EXAMPLE: Top 7 rows of a steel area can be bashed through - this includes the top of the level and in fact cannot be prevented by better placement in this case

[Dullstar]

Which one is used in the Tricky 28 challenge?

[Luis]

In the PSP Lemmings, you can make the Lemmings walk on top of the level and all you can see is their feet. You can beat Mayhem 12 and 28 this way. I don't know if this works in the SNES version since I haven't played that in a long time.

[Clam]

Which one is used in the Tricky 28 challenge?

I might add some slightly better descriptions at some point.

In the PSP Lemmings, you can make the Lemmings walk on top of the level and all you can see is their feet. You can beat Mayhem 12 and 28 this way.

You can do that in Windows lemmings too, except you can't see them at all. Mayhem 28 can also be backrouted using the "bashing top of steel" glitch that I mentioned.

[Dullstar]

Awl!  There's a glitch that makes Upsidedown World nearly impossible.  When I assign a lemming to a miner, it makes one gap then turns right around.

This is the right one way arrow glitch.  Not fun!
I had to use Lemmings Encyclopedia to help find a substitute solution on which this would not be a problem.

[Clam]

It's my most hated level for that reason. Most glitches are fun (and maybe a little annoying from a level design perspective), but this one just plain sucks.


Anyway, there's a couple of others I forgot to mention earlier, such as...

*SPOILERS again*

Direct drop - lemmings falling onto an exit from a height will exit and be saved instead of splatting. This one is quite common among levels made by new designers...

Lemmings falling into water are swept along by the waves unless there is terrain nearby (and sometimes even if there is - I haven't figured this out). If they fall into the edge of the water object and there is no terrain next to it (you can often remove this ground using diggers), then they will float in mid air when they drown.

If you make a builder lemming into a climber when he shrugs, he will start moving straight away, and be stuck in the shrug animation until he encounters an obstacle. For some reason this works in Original lemmings but not ONML. (The recommended level for trying this out is Fun 19 )

One-way arrow trigger areas take precedence over steel areas. (Note to Fleech - this is how I backrouted your level )

Blockers cancel out trigger areas. This includes exits!

Release rates above 99 and up to 250 can be built into levels (as seen in geoo's "Palace o/t once hacked lemmings"), and are slower than a rate of 1.

[Fleech]

One-way arrow trigger areas take precedence over steel areas. (Note to Fleech - this is how I backrouted your level )

Aha! Thanks. I've already taken out the arrows in the updated version but that's useful to know for the future.

I don't really understand the Giant Leap glitch. When is a lemming considered to be a jumper?

I found out yesterday (not that I'm claiming it to be a new find ) that you can get lems stuck in the ceiling. It came in very handy for getting 100% on the last level of the Companion demo.

[Clam]

I can see this thread is de-backrouting future levels already

I don't really understand the Giant Leap glitch. When is a lemming considered to be a jumper?

That's when a lemming hoists itself up a step of 3 to 6 pixels. They only move upwards at 2 pixels per frame, so if they are jumping into a tiny gap, there's time to fill the gap while the jumper is moving.

I found out yesterday (not that I'm claiming it to be a new find ) that you can get lems stuck in the ceiling. It came in very handy for getting 100% on the last level of the Companion demo.

You mean "Congratulations!"? How could that possibly be useful there? Unless...

[Fleech]

Oops, haha. I meant the Covox demo.

[Clam]

Wait, you weren't talking about "Congratulations!"... yet you've led me to a most remarkable discovery

If you don't know what I'm talking about, open this level in Lemmix and turn on trigger areas. You may find these smileys useful:

[Fleech]

I've just looked.

 

 

Very cool find!

[Dullstar]

Can you post a screenshot?

[geoo]

Can you post a screenshot?

You could also, like, just open the level in Lemmix, and view the trigger areas...


On a different note, I finished the levelpack I mentioned in the 'OhNo! More Challenges' thread, which is showing off variations of a certain glitch:
http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=118
EDIT2: link changed to levelpack database
EDIT: Missing steel ClamSpammer mentioned below added.

First level is designed so that one can find the solution by regular means, and encounter a side effect, the actual glitch.
In the second level, you are supposed to apply that glitch, and subsequently encounter another aspect of it.
In the third and fourth level, the title gives you instructions on what the level is about.
The final two levels are for applying what you've learned in the previous ones.

Notably all solutions are supposed to stand out, i.e. being easy to find, as opposed to regular levels where the intension is to hide them.

Any solution that does not involve the glitch is a backroute, obviously.
Apart from the first two levels, the solutions are comparatively elegant and not too hard to execute.
The first two are a bit messy because I had to eliminite alternative solutions, which is difficult if the level doesn't take real advantages of the glitch just showing it off.

[Clam]

Neato 

I've solved the first four so far. Level 4 is missing a steel object, which you may want to put in

Level 3 is very nice. You'd be hard pressed to come up with a simpler level that requires this particular aspect of the glitch.



Sorry Dullstar, I must have missed that post somehow. Still, it's not difficult to open up a level in Lemmix.

[-H0ru5-]

I didn't read these comments, only downloaded the pack. Yes, I encountered something interesting, but dunno how to solve it yet. 
By and by...

[Dullstar]

I don't have the covox demo.  I actually found a glitch in one of my levels, but I decided its fine, since the intended solution would have to modified to fix it.  Besides, I'll say the three builders are there for people who don't realize that lemmings can fall any distance if it lands on an exit trigger area.

[Clam]

The level I mentioned isn't part of the covox demo (whatever that is. I haven't heard of it ). It's the last of the special ONML levels that came with the Lemmings Strategy Guide.

[Fleech]

The Covox demo is also knows as Save The Lemmings. I've just had a quick search and it's availalbe to download at Lemmings Universe if you're interested.

[ccexplore]

DOS/Amiga Lemmings

I've just started reading this thread thanks to the lack of communications on where the forums ended up at.  Just want to say that a few of the glitches you listed are specific to DOS.  I'll add details once I finish catching up.

[Clam]

Are they? I've never played the Amiga version so I thought they were pretty much the same.

@Fleech: I've downloaded the covox demo, and I still have no idea what you were talking about.

Back to glitches. A while back I found a few glitches with the left side of the map (which for most purposes acts as a solid wall). Like the blocker glitches, these could be used in levels which can't be solved in any other way. Does anyone else know about these?

[Fleech]

@Fleech: I've downloaded the covox demo, and I still have no idea what you were talking about.

My solution to the JackLemmings level was far from elegant and there is probably a simpler way to save 100%, which may be why what I've said makes no sense to you. In any case, getting stuck in the ceiling helped me at least.

[Clam]

Ohhh... you mean the invisible ceiling at the top of the map. Yeah, I can see how it could be useful on that level. And yes, there is a much easier way to get 100%. This requires the use of one or two turnaround tricks, which in themselves border on glitchiness (though they're probably better described as exploits of the game mechanics).

[ccexplore]

Are they? I've never played the Amiga version so I thought they were pretty much the same.

They are mostly the same.  Having gone through your list, the only two that doesn't work are the nuke glitch, the shrugger->climber glitch, and the direct drop.  Not on your list but another DOS-specific one is the trick on pausing the game to gain about 2 seconds (eliminated the time waiting for the lemming trapdoors to open).  I have to re-check the glitch on mining right one-way walls.

Back to glitches. A while back I found a few glitches with the left side of the map (which for most purposes acts as a solid wall). Like the blocker glitches, these could be used in levels which can't be solved in any other way. Does anyone else know about these?

I'm not aware of anything specifically glitchy about the left side.  In looking at the programming, it actually did a pretty consistent job of checking the left side of the map and treating it as a solid wall, but I suppose it's possible they forgot to do the check in certain cases.  I did use the left-side-acts-like-wall technique for my 100% solution to Wild 12 but that's about it.

[ccexplore]

I think I've pretty much covered the old thread (for the DOS version at least), except for Wicked 7.

Ok, the secret to Wicked 7:

The game keeps a map of interactive objects' trigger areas to check if a lemming walks into one.  The blocker's effects is actually done via trigger areas, a sort of "blocker's field" if you will.  Notably, the field is not tied directly to the blocker itself.

Normally, when you create a blocker, the game saves the original trigger areas at where the blocker is, then writes the "blocker's field" trigger areas into the map.  Then normally, when the blocker stops blocking (either the ground it stands on is removed, or it explodes), the game restores the original trigger areas into the map to remove the blocker's field.

Notice that the game assumes the blocker hasn't moved from the time it saves the original trigger areas and the time it restores them.  This assumption however is wrong:  when you explode a blocker, after the countdown goes to zero, it first transitions to a lemming that yells "Oh no" and shudders, before it finally explodes.  And the shuddering lemming will fall if you remove the ground it stands on.  Yet the blocker's field is only removed when the explosion happens.

As a result, when the blocker is moved this way, the game will "restore" the original trigger areas into the wrong place in the map (where the lemming ends up exploding, as opposed to where it was originally blocking).  So you get two effects:

1) the blocker field remains
2) the original trigger areas get transferred into the new position

My lose-4 solution to Wicked 7 make use of #1.

[Clam]

I know about those glitches (otherwise I couldn't have solved all of geoo's original levels), but I can't figure out how to apply them to Wicked 7. Still, I'm sure your explanation will be enlightening to some


And from your post it looks like you aren't aware of the left-wall glitches. The problem with the left wall is this:

When a lemming walks into a wall (any wall, not just the edge of the map), it actually goes into the wall slightly as it turns around. This is what allows you to dig out steel or one-way arrows by bashing in the opposite direction. At the left edge of the map, this means the lemming is actually positioned off the map for one frame. Beyond the edge of the map, the game doesn't detect terrain, so the lemming is actually walking on nothing for a moment. In most cases, the game handles this well - but there are exceptions .

This can be combined with another known glitch (one that has been mentioned in this thread) to produce an even more remarkable effect.

[ccexplore]

The problem with the left wall is this:

<snip>At the left edge of the map, this means the lemming is actually positioned off the map for one frame. Beyond the edge of the map, the game doesn't detect terrain, so the lemming is actually walking on nothing for a moment.</snip>

Hmm, I'm definitely not aware of that.  I'll need to review the code again to see the details, but I can definitely see how the game might've set the boundary for left-side turnaround off by one pixel, and neglect to check for falling in that case, allow you to walk on nothing for that frame.

Incidentally, have you verified that this works in DOS Lemmings (being played in DOSBox or directly)?  If this glitch only works in Lemmix, then it's something we should fix in Lemmix, given it was meant to clone DOS Lemming's game physics exactly.

[Clam]

Just checked. It doesn't work in DOS ONML.

[ccexplore]

Just checked. It doesn't work in DOS ONML.

I just checked the game's programming, and indeed it skips the checks for fall detection during the left-boundary turnaround for walkers, so what you said about the lemming walking on air at that frame is possible.  The question I think might hinge on the details of where exactly DOS Lemmings/ONML clips the terrain graphics at the level boundaries.  This is an area of the game's programming that I haven't fully investigated (because it's a pain), but I suppose the question will need to be answered at some point for Lemmix to match DOS Lemmings at the boundaries.  (It's not the first time; we had to fix Lemmix once to support with the ceiling-bash glitch, because it turns out that partially depends on the game reading pixels off the top of the map by actually reading from the topmost row of pixels on the map.)

Based on my theory, I think you should be able to make the glitch work even in Lemmings/ONML/CustLemm, if you explicitly "clip" the terrain yourself at the turnaround boundary, using eraser terrain pieces.

[Clam]

Aha. I've tested another level and observed the glitch behaviour. For the record:

Crazy 18 - Terrain extends off the edge of the map. Glitch observed in Lemmix, but not DOS.
Fun 23 - Terrain doesn't extend off the edge of the map. Glitch observed in Lemmix and DOS.

That seems to be consistent with what you've just said.

[Clam]

It's probably worth noting with regards to this glitch that it is possible to place steel areas off the left side of the map. I'm not aware of any level that does this though.

Interactive objects can't be positioned off the left side of the map (when you load the level it disappears, and actually ends up a LONG way off to the right), which takes away a potential use for the glitch. The best you can do here is to place the object on the map and (politely ) ask the player to load the level in Lemmix, move the object to the left and then start the playtest mode.

EDIT: OK, it IS possible to place objects out to and X position of -16, but no further. The point is that you can't place an exit far enough off screen that its trigger is off the screen. (You can get some mean hidden traps though ) However, if you place it like this in Lemmix and playtest it, the lemmings will exit as they turn around at the left wall.


I should also mention the falling blocker/bomber glitch, which I've forgotten thus far. When a lemming blocks or starts the "oh no" animation when there is no ground underneath it, it falls down. This is part of the trick where a miner falls through a piece of ground without breaking it, and also features in my backroute solution to a recent custom level.

[Dullstar]

The trigger areas of water can be in the wrong place, causing a lemming to drown because it hit the trigger area instead of the terrain, because the trigger area is elevated SLIGHTLY higher.  In these cases, the lemmings are supposed to land on the terrain, not in the water.

For example, in Pea Soup,  if you put holes of the exact shape and size of the water, the lemmings would not drown instead of land on the "pea," because they would land on the "pea" like they were supposed to.  Trigger areas are only visible to the eye in the Lemmix level editor.  No wonder you'll be taken by surprise when the lemmings drown when they would normally land on the terrain instead.

[Mr Kiwi]

Just Dig! on Game Gear has no bottom floor... Well, it is there, but cannot be seen.

[Tsyu]

Just Dig! on Game Gear has no bottom floor... Well, it is there, but cannot be seen.

Really? I can see it just fine.

[Dullstar]

Could your Game Gear have a bad bottom screen?  At least, you have that large lemmings collection, so I would assume that you have the actual game.

If you aren't using a game gear, it could be a glitchy emulator.

Some games have had multiple versions, might Game Gear lemmings have been one of them?  (if you aren't sure what I'm talking about, think getting cheats.  For example, for The Legend of Zelda:  Ocarina of Time, when getting cheats you have to know if you have 1.0, 1.1, or uh, 2.0?  The last one could have been 1.2 instead, as I don't remember because I don't cheat on that game anymore).

[Clam]

I've finally figured out Wicked 7 .

Anyway, this isn't really a glitch, and certainly doesn't warrant the spoiler warnings associated with this thread, but it's still slightly messed up. On Crazy 18 and 19, as well as Wild 18, there is a gap between the lower edge of the water objects and the bottom of the screen. On Wild 18, there's also two water objects next to each other that are placed at different levels. With a bit of bomber timing, you can get two lemmings to drown at the same time and have one floating over the other . I'll post a pic if you want, but it's pretty easy to do (you don't even need to change the release rate).

[Clam]

While searching the old forum for info on 3-trapdoor entrance order and fake objects, relevant to the 1 minute solutions thread, I've stumbled upon something else. Another steel-digging glitch. Some of you know this already - in fact, the people who posted about it are still active on this forum -  but it's new to me. It seems to work like this:

If you have two lemmings under the cursor, and the one that has priority for selection can't be assigned a digger for whatever reason (but NOT if it is standing on steel), then the game doesn't check for steel on the second-highest priority lemming. So, if you click on the lemmings with the digger tool selected, the second-priority lemming will dig even if it is on steel. It only digs down 1 pixel (since the game detects steel as normal afterwards), but you can do it multiple times in succession as long as you have the other lemming under the cursor.

Interestingly, the use of this glitch can't be saved in a Lemmix replay. There's a similar glitch where you can build with a lemming that is stuck at the top of a level, where it can't normally build, but it's not terribly useful.

[Dullstar]

Interestingly, the use of this glitch can't be saved in a Lemmix replay.

O_o

Strange.
Maybe we should make a "Glitches in Lemmix" thread which doesn't relate to any SPECIFIC glitch, but all glitches in Lemmix, which may just be something like, "Hey, x glitch doesn't work in Lemmix!"

It's certainly a lot easier to fix glitches when there are people to tell you what these glitches are!  Otherwise, a glitch could slip by unnoticed.  Of course, there are ALWAYS going to be some glitches.  I certainly wouldn't blame Nintendo for the glitch in Super Metroid that allows you to skip a whole boss just because it's so hard to pull off, therefore highly unlikely to be noticed by the testers!  Things like that could occur in any given game project.

[Clam]

(whoa, this just turned into a wall of text. key points in bold)

Here's something I just found while using the cursor steel-digging glitch on Mayhem 12. Keep in mind here that the steel area matches up exactly with the steel terrain.

After using the glitch to get through most of the steel, the remaining piece is at least 8 pixels across (this is the furthest you can get with the first digger still under the cursor). To get through this width of steel takes at least two basher strokes (the most you can take out at once is 7 pixels), which should mean the basher doesn't work at all. And yet it goes through.

I'm testing things as I type this. It only seems to work when the basher is above the level of the floor where the exit is. If I try it at floor level, or more than 4 pixels above, it doesn't work.

And it gets weirder. I move the exit away and it stops working. If I move the exit to the left, it lets me bash through the left part of the steel. And a bit more testing shows that it's caused by the exit top, not the exit itself. Other objects don't seem to work. Wherever I move this object (or place new ones), the steel becomes destructible below the left side of it.

Now I'm sure you're curious and want to see this for yourself. Open up the level (Mayhem 12, "The Far Side") in Lemmix and do the following:

- Move the top part of the exit down 4 pixels.
- Copy the object and place two more, one 8 pixels to the left and the other 16 pixels to the left
- Run the level and bash through the steel.
And then move some things around to see what happens.

I'm going to test it in DOS now. I have my doubts as to whether it will work...
EDIT: Wow, it works in DOS. However, I've only got it to work in the dirt tileset. It works for miners, diggers and bombers too, if you use them in the right spot.

Mayhem 12 is the only level where this has any effect. I checked Tricky 27, but the areas don't overlap at all. In theory, this works for VGASPEC levels too. The original special graphics levels don't have steel though. (Don't worry geoo, Supaplex Tricks isn't affected )

I've pinned down the exact area affected. See the attached screenshot. The trigger area on the left is the area where steel is canceled by the exit top piece (I placed a coupe of rock traps to make this). It lines up with the DOS grid, so (for example) moving the object one pixel to the left has the same effect as moving it 4 pixels to the left - the breakable steel area moves left by 4 pixels.

[Clam]

Split into a second post to avoid confusion... here's the other thing I wanted to mention. This relates to bombing through steel with blockers. When I did the following (on Tricky 9, it will likely work on other levels too):

- Let two lemmings out at RR99
- Set the first one to bomb, then the other about half a second later
- When the first one stops walking, turn the second one into a blocker

The first lemming explodes and makes a hole in the steel, and then the second one falls and explodes. However: If the second lemming falls to the lowest part of the hole created by the first (that's 8 pixels down - this will happen if you place the blocker close to the first lemming), the explosion doesn't make a hole (and because it's a blocker, you can't place another blocker to make it blow a hole). Otherwise (7 pixels falling or less), it does make a hole. As a result, you can get through 15 pixels of steel with this setup, but not 16. Obviously, you can get through 16 with a different setup, but that's not the point.

Can you (ccexplore or anyone else) explain this? Does the falling blocker cross some invisible threshold between 7 and 8 pixels?

[ccexplore]

And it gets weirder. I move the exit away and it stops working. If I move the exit to the left, it lets me bash through the left part of the steel. And a bit more testing shows that it's caused by the exit top, not the exit itself. Other objects don't seem to work. Wherever I move this object (or place new ones), the steel becomes destructible below the left side of it.

Yep, that's correct.  DOS Lemmings does not actually have a way for an object to specify "no trigger area" (other than fake objects, ie. index 16 or higher).  So for decorative objects like the exit top, the best it can do is to specify the smallest trigger area possible (4x4) in what's supposed to be the upper corner of the object (but because of the same miscalculation that places one-way-wall trigger areas off by 4, it's more like (0,-4)), and set the trigger area effect to "none".  And because objects' trigger areas override steel, you get the behavior you see in Mayhem 12.

[edit: hmm, actually based on your picture and your description, it seems that the area being canceled out is much lower than I expected.  I'll have to check groundXo.dat for the dirt set to see if the positioning of the exit-top object's trigger area is in the unusual position depicted in your screenshot]

[edit2:  okay, it looks like in the dirt and crystal sets (0 and 4), the exit-top has an unusual 8 (width) x 4 (height) trigger area at (x+4,y+12) where (x,y) is the object's position, which matches with your screenshot.  I haven't looked at other types of objects or the ONML/Holiday graphics sets in detail yet to say whether there are anything unusual in those.]

In original Lemmings/ONML, the only other types of object that has such a trigger area setup are the entrance trapdoors, and the flag objects (which aren't used in any 1-player levels).  Holiday Lemmings however, I think every type of object except the exits would have this trigger area setup, although I don't know if there are any levels where you can make use of it.

This was mentioned (though not in the context of steel-destruction glitches) obliquely in my documentation on groundoX.dat files.

Note that because Lemmix doesn't properly handle object indices, it's good to double-check applications of this in the actual DOS game, to make sure the object causing this effect isn't fake in the actual DOS game.

[ccexplore]

When I did the following (on Tricky 9, it will likely work on other levels too):

- Let two lemmings out at RR99
- Set the first one to bomb, then the other about half a second later
- When the first one stops walking, turn the second one into a blocker

<snip>

Can you (ccexplore or anyone else) explain this? Does the falling blocker cross some invisible threshold between 7 and 8 pixels?

You're seeing the Wicked 7 glitch in action, together with the effects of alignment on trigger areas.  The blocker's field is setup starting at (x-4,y-6) [actually, rounded down to nearest multiple of 4 to align with grid].  In the context of Tricky 9 you get the following:

Code: [Select]

...
.L.
SSS
where "." is air, L is where the blocker is standing (also air), and S is the first 4 rows of pixels of steel the blocker is standing on.

Because of the Wicked 7 glitch in your setup, when the blocker finally explodes, the game restores the saved trigger areas above into the blocker's new position after it has fallen into the explosion pit of the first lemming.  But the restored trigger areas must align with the DOS grid, whereas the blocker's new position doesn't.

The end effect is that in both the case of 7 pixels down and 8 pixels down, even though the blocker's final position is different, the trigger areas are restored in the same position in both cases.  Namely, the top 8 rows of pixels of steel turns into nothing.

Code: [Select]

...    ...
.L.    ...
SSS -> ...
       .L.
       SSS
But the blocker would be standing immediately above the steel in the 8-pixel case, and not in the 7-pixel case.  So no steel taken out in the former but in the latter.

[Clam]

[edit: hmm, actually based on your picture and your description, it seems that the area being canceled out is much lower than I expected.  I'll have to check groundXo.dat for the dirt set to see if the positioning of the exit-top object's trigger area is in the unusual position depicted in your screenshot]

I was just about to mention that before you edited it in. It might be worth checking the files for the positions of these areas on other objects, just in case. I just checked another exit top (Pillar tileset) and it is as you described - the "trigger" area is above the left corner.
(edit: I'm trying it with a trapdoor now (dirt tileset) and it isn't working. This one must be different too)

Note that because Lemmix doesn't properly handle object indices, it's good to double-check applications of this in the actual DOS game, to make sure the object causing this effect isn't fake in the actual DOS game.

Along these lines, is this "bug" specific to DOS, or does it affect Amiga too? If it does, there might be potential for different results in Amiga (or the corrected DOS version, for that matter) in levels where water objects bring the total number of objects to more than 16.

But the blocker would be standing immediately above the steel in the 8-pixel case, and not in the 7-pixel case.  So no steel taken out in the former but in the latter.

Thanks. That makes sense.


(edit) One more thing...

And because objects' trigger areas override steel, you get the behavior you see in Mayhem 12.

I just realised, that applies to ALL trigger areas, not just these fake ones (and one-way walls, which I mentioned earlier). And that means...
It IS possible to drown the lemmings in Flurry 8, Vacation in Gemland. I've always wanted to do that.

[Dullstar]

(whoa, this just turned into a wall of text. key points in bold)

Here's something I just found while using the cursor steel-digging glitch on Mayhem 12. Keep in mind here that the steel area matches up exactly with the steel terrain.

After using the glitch to get through most of the steel, the remaining piece is at least 8 pixels across (this is the furthest you can get with the first digger still under the cursor). To get through this width of steel takes at least two basher strokes (the most you can take out at once is 7 pixels), which should mean the basher doesn't work at all. And yet it goes through.

I'm testing things as I type this. It only seems to work when the basher is above the level of the floor where the exit is. If I try it at floor level, or more than 4 pixels above, it doesn't work.

And it gets weirder. I move the exit away and it stops working. If I move the exit to the left, it lets me bash through the left part of the steel. And a bit more testing shows that it's caused by the exit top, not the exit itself. Other objects don't seem to work. Wherever I move this object (or place new ones), the steel becomes destructible below the left side of it.

Now I'm sure you're curious and want to see this for yourself. Open up the level (Mayhem 12, "The Far Side") in Lemmix and do the following:

- Move the top part of the exit down 4 pixels.
- Copy the object and place two more, one 8 pixels to the left and the other 16 pixels to the left
- Run the level and bash through the steel.
And then move some things around to see what happens.

I'm going to test it in DOS now. I have my doubts as to whether it will work...
EDIT: Wow, it works in DOS. However, I've only got it to work in the dirt tileset. It works for miners, diggers and bombers too, if you use them in the right spot.

Mayhem 12 is the only level where this has any effect. I checked Tricky 27, but the areas don't overlap at all. In theory, this works for VGASPEC levels too. The original special graphics levels don't have steel though. (Don't worry geoo, Supaplex Tricks isn't affected )

I've pinned down the exact area affected. See the attached screenshot. The trigger area on the left is the area where steel is canceled by the exit top piece (I placed a coupe of rock traps to make this). It lines up with the DOS grid, so (for example) moving the object one pixel to the left has the same effect as moving it 4 pixels to the left - the breakable steel area moves left by 4 pixels.

(wall of text, will not be edited to determine what is being looked for).  Do you have to perform the steel glitch for this to work?  Nope!  That's what makes this the perfect glitch!  Heh heh, easy to perform.

[ccexplore]

[edit2:  okay, it looks like in the dirt and crystal sets (0 and 4), the exit-top has an unusual 8 (width) x 4 (height) trigger area at (x+4,y+12) where (x,y) is the object's position, which matches with your screenshot.  I haven't looked at other types of objects or the ONML/Holiday graphics sets in detail yet to say whether there are anything unusual in those.]

I browsed through all the sets in Lemmings, ONML and Holiday Lemmings, and it looks like the two objects mentioned above are the only ones that have the "unusual" trigger area.  All the other ones are the usual (x, y-4) 4x4 triggers.

The browsing did bring to attention that in ONML, some of the traps are also split into two parts like the exit, and the part that's not animated would have a potential steel-canceling trigger area.  This includes the left and right lizard traps in set 1, and the golden horizontal "zap gun" trap in set 3.

[Clam]

What about trapdoors? I've tried a few of these and they don't seem to cancel steel in that spot.

[ccexplore]

What about trapdoors? I've tried a few of these and they don't seem to cancel steel in that spot.

Hmm, looks like you can add this to the list of Lemmix glitches.  I've attached a modified version of Taxing 4, with one of the entrances moved so that the lemmings that come out of it will start off directly on the spot where the steel has been canceled.

If you replace the original level in level002.dat of DOS Lemmings with this modified level and play the game in DOS, you can dig on the steel area, as seen in the screenshot.  On the other hand, Lemmix doesn't let you do that.

[Clam]

Wow, now that's something

I wonder if it would be a good idea for Lemmix to display these "inert" trigger areas, so we can watch out for them when we make new levels. Maybe there are some levels already in existence that can be backrouted because of this?

[Dullstar]

Probably not if you have to edit object locations to do it.

[Clam]

I've had a look through a bunch of custom levels. There are certainly a few places where steel is canceled by inert triggers, but you'd need a fairly specific arrangement to actually create a backroute with these. Steel canceling with actual trigger areas seems to be much more common.

Probably the best one I found was a remake of the Lemmings 2 level "So close but so far away". The trigger on the exit top piece cancels a bit of steel and makes it a bit easier to glitch through - although with the available skills, there are easier backroutes on offer...

It's easy enough to contrive a level that exploits this though

[ccexplore]

Probably not if you have to edit object locations to do it.

To clarify, the steel-canceling in my modified Taxing 4 actually comes from the entrance trapdoor that isn't moved.  I only moved the other entrance to save you the trouble from having to build yourself into that tiny place.

I do agree that, given the usually tiny sizes of the "inert" trigger areas, you're far more likely in real levels to encounter steel canceling by actual trigger areas.

[Clam]

It's easy enough to contrive a level that exploits this though

So easy, in fact, that I've gone ahead and done it

Here's a couple of levels that demonstrate this glitch. One with a lizard, and one without.

[Clam]

I just found something while playing Taxing 8 ("The Art Gallery") as part of the "minimum skills" thread. Remember how you can make miners fall through terrain without actually breaking it? Well, I've just found that bashers can too. It requires a very specific terrain formation, which this level provides, but on the plus side, you don't need a second skill (like the blocker used in the miner trick) - the lemming just falls.

The spot you have to bash from is beneath the left side of the rightmost ball - there's a light-blue colored pixel of terrain that the lemmings walk on. If you bash to the right from this spot, the lemming will take one swing, slide across and down, and then fall.

[Clam]

Weird graphics bug in Holiday Lemmings. I've actually known about this for a while, but I couldn't get a screenshot since it's quite rare.

That strange looking green thing is a lemming that has just been assigned the digger skill. It appears like this very briefly, and then continues digging as normal. There doesn't seem to be any pattern to the occurence of this glitch - it didn't happen again when I replayed the level and made the lemming dig in the same spot.

[ccexplore]

Weird graphics bug in Holiday Lemmings. I've actually known about this for a while, but I couldn't get a screenshot since it's quite rare.

That strange looking green thing is a lemming that has just been assigned the digger skill.

Actually, I think you can see this in Lemmings and ONML as well.  To see it, I believe you need to pause at a very specific time, namely between the game having processed the skill assignment but haven't yet gone to update the lemmings for the current frame.  Since there're no delay between the two, it's rare indeed.

The "green blob" happens because internally when you assigned a lemming a digger, the game sets its starting animation frame number to a special number, which the game recognizes and does the special extra terrain removal on the digger's first stroke.  This number however does not point to any real graphics, and the game ends up trying to interpret as graphics whatever is in memory after the digger's last animation frame, and ends up with the garbage that is the green blob you see.

[Clam]

I've seen this happen without pausing the game. That's how I noticed it originally - as a green thing that shows up for a moment and then disappears.

[Dullstar]

Hmmm...  do you think you might be able to capture a video of it sometime?

[Clam]

At the moment? Unfortunately, no. It doesn't want to work now. " title="Angry" class="smiley" /> Maybe it didn't happen without pausing

On the other hand, I did find something else. If you have a lemming under the cursor when you quit a level, and then play the level again (or start any other level), the lemming info (eg. WALKER 1) will show up on the status bar until the first lemming enters the level.

[Minim]

In the PSP Lemmings, you can make the Lemmings walk on top of the level and all you can see is their feet. You can beat Mayhem 12 and 28 this way.

You can do that in Windows lemmings too, except you can't see them at all.

Using Windows lemmings, try solving Havoc 15 using that method!

[Dullstar]

At the moment? Unfortunately, no. It doesn't want to work now. " title="Angry" class="smiley" /> Maybe it didn't happen without pausing

Well, next time it happens or something like that.  You don't have to do it right away.

[Minim]

If you want to play a level featuring several glitches download ISteve05 from the level pack downloads and play the last level. His level solution uses FIVE different glitches out of the 11 that Clam Spammer noticed.

[Dullstar]

That's a lot of glitches.  Unfortunately, I have trouble executing glitches.  The only one I've been able to pull off other than the bash through steel by moving the objects glitch was the nuke glitch on Ice Station Lemming.

[Minim]

You can't do the nuke glitch on the level I mentioned.

[Dullstar]

Obviously I can't do that level then.

[namida]

o_O

Holy crap. This one is MASSIVE. Only works in DOS, not Lemmix. Hard to explain, so I'll just show a video. Using it, you can beat "Living On The Edge" with no builders at all. o_O

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IzsQiB560EM

[Minim]

Hmm... maybe Tame 20 can be solved without builders as well with this glitch. There was another replay on it once which I lost. It wasn't on youtube it was downloadable.

[namida]

I tried that, but it doesn't seem to work. I managed to get 48% with it, but 50% is just out of reach...

[Minim]

I've got that as well. " title="Angry" class="smiley" /> You're not the only one Proxima

[Fleech]

I got that message as well, but I got around it. You're not missing much. It's a Rick Roll.

[Minim]

A Rick Roll? What's this?

[Fleech]

Here's the vid linked to above if you really want to know. It should work whatever country you're in. Wiki is a better option though.

[Dullstar]

Oh please.  That is a glitch?  That's not in any Lemmings port to date.

[Clam]

So, you take my absence as an opportunity to vandalise my thread? Not cool. " title="Angry" class="smiley" />

Hmm... maybe Tame 20 can be solved without builders as well with this glitch. There was another replay on it once which I lost. It wasn't on youtube it was downloadable.

FYI: Tame 20 can be done without builders. This trick was discovered way back on the old old forums. (Unless you knew that already).

[ccexplore]

So, you take my absence as an opportunity to vandalise my thread? Not cool. " title="Angry" class="smiley" />

Eh, I thought it was a nice change of pace for somone to throw in something completely frivilous. A mini-fast for the thread if you will.   And at least the video wasn't anything offensive or controversial.

[namida]

You all got rickrolled.

[Proxima]

FYI: Tame 20 can be done without builders. This trick was discovered way back on the old old forums. (Unless you knew that already).

So, remind me, does that mean all of Tame can be done with just one builder?

[Minim]

Yes, that's right. The only builder you're counting is the one used in Level 13.

[namida]

o_O
Those other than 13 and 20 are all simple as (apart from two which are a bit tricky, but still clearly possible), but how the heck can you do 13 with one or 20 with none? Replays plz?

[ccexplore]

I did post the replay for Tame 20 a while back on the Lemmings File Archive.  here.

You'd have to ask ClamSpammer for Tame 13, although I think it's based on the same concept as Tame 20.  I just took a look and it looks like those thin red pillars on the left are just wide and short enough to allow you to create enough 6-pixel steps to get up from them.  [edit: never mind, I can't do math apparently] When I first did Tame 20 back on the old old forums, there was no Lemmix, so I wasn't particularly kin on trying Tame 13 even though I expected it to work with 1 or 2 builders.

[Clam]

It does use the "Tame 20" trick, but as far as I can tell there's no way to dig out enough steps from the pillars without using at least one extra builder. Instead I did something completely different, using another glitch.

[ccexplore]

Whoops, my bad, I thought 115 - 75 is 30. No more doing math in my head.

I guess this leaves the following as the only way I see to get it to work.  Hint: it won't work on anything besides the DOS version:

You'll create a climber-only path to the exit after using the Tame 20 trick, send the first 20 or so lemmings to the exit, and cut it off in time with the nuke glitch so that the save percentage remains 50% or above.

[geoo]

It does use the "Tame 20" trick, but as far as I can tell there's no way to dig out enough steps from the pillars without using at least one extra builder. Instead I did something completely different, using another glitch.

I just found a solution that saves 100% (50/50) with a single builder on Tame 13.
EDIT: Yeah, Tame 13. " title="Angry" class="smiley" />
Hint:

Use more than 6 steps!

If no-one minds, I can post the replay.

[Clam]

I just found a solution that saves 100% (50/50) with a single builder on Tame 20.

Did you mean Tame 13

[geoo]

Yeah, that's supposed to be Tame 13. " title="Angry" class="smiley" />

[Dullstar]

I don't think anyone minds the replay being uploaded.

[Clam]

Yeah, you may as well upload it now.

[ccexplore]

Okay, here's my guess:

You used a blocker standing on an adjacent pillar to prevent lemmings from falling off the pillar, and also to turn them around to climb more steps going in the other direction.  Maybe it looks something like this:

   xxx
   x 
   x 
   x 
   x 
   x 
xxxx 
xxxx 
x     
x     
x     
x     
xx   

I guess you'd free the blocker later with a digger and make both of them climbers to finish it off.

Though I'm still not 100% sure how the steps would be constructed, since it looks like you won't be able to create some of them by digging all the way from the top.

Very nice job. I'd love to see the replay too.

[geoo]

Yes, this is pretty much the basic idea to my solution.

Here's the replay of it:

[Clam]

Wow. Just wow.

 

[ccexplore]

That is truly the coolest thing I've ever seen in Lemmings.   You'e got to archive it in the Lemmings File Portal.  I also have a very strong urge to turn the replay into a youtube video if I could get acceptable screen recording working.

[Proxima]

What software are you using for screen recording? I could try to help you with that.

[namida]

...That is by far the most creative and genius solution I've ever seen to any lemmings level ever.

[Dullstar]

There's something for Ubuntu, but I don't know how to stop it... 

[geoo]

Ok, uploaded it to the Lemmings File Portal.
Feel free to put a video of the solution on YouTube.

Funny thing is that all the time I assumed ClamSpammer actually had found a solution that saved >25 lemmings, i.e. more than just the climbers and only fell a few Lemmings short of the 100%. I never thought of nuking (I assume it is the key to that solution). I only read ccexplore's notion about nuking after I had already found my solution, the knowledge of the existance of a 1 builder solution was what actually made me give it another try; long time ago I had already tried a 1 builder solution to that level but given up prematurely.

[Clam]

Oh, I didn't actually say this before. Yes, I used the nuke glitch and just saved the 20 climbers. This was at a time when the nuke glitch was the strategy du jour (in my mind at least) and I was trying to find as many uses for it as possible

[ccexplore]

Here's the youtube video of geoo89's solution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by3MunMkw1M

As it turns out, it's pretty easy to get decent screen recordings off of Lemmix, if I just set the screen resolution low enough and set the capture framerate to something low like 20 (since the actual game uses a low framerate anyway).

[Pooty]

Wow, that is absolutely brilliant. I can't imagine how long it took for you to come up with that method, geoo. It blows my mind. 

Now, as you can probably tell, I play the SEGA Master System version of Lemmings. While the game does hold together suprisingly well, there are a few glitches:

• There are at least two glitches common between the DOS and SMS versions: Miners clearing one-pixel gaps, and climbers pulling away slightly from the wall when they hit the ceiling and fall.

• If you time it well, you can turn a digger into a blocker, and it will float in mid-air for a very brief moment. It will then become a walker again after realising it's not standing on anything.
  

  This can be used to rescue 100% on Taxing 6 (Compression Method), the hole bypassing the trap.

• If there are less than 30 seconds remaining, the clock will continuously blink. If you pause when the clock is visible (and unpause when it's not), the clock will not run down. Apparently, I can beat Mayhem 3 (It's Hero Time) in just over 30 seconds. 

• If you pause the game the moment a shrugging builder turns back into a walker, the lemming will animate in a very weird way. It will go through pretty much all the animations in the game. After a while (the time it takes to build 1¹/₄ bridges), he will shrug once more. You could attempt to perform the glitch again, or let him walk on.
  

  Using this method, it might be possible to rescue 100% on Mayhem 2 (The Boiler Room). However, I have not been very successful so far.

[namida]

Mayhem 2 in Master System is possible to acheive 100% on without any glitches. Easy, no, possible, yes. In general, unless a level requires blockers or bombers for creating the actual path, you can acheive 100% on it in the Sega version. The only exceptions are Fun 11 and Taxing 28, and it should be obvious why 100% is impossible on these two. Fun 11 requires either builders, miners or diggers - which are the three skills you don't have. (You could do it if you had 20 Climbers and Floaters instead of 10, but that would destroy the point of the level anyway.) Taxing 28 should be obvious (for the record, Mayhem 10 is possible despite a similar setup because the fall is much smaller in the SMS version and you still get all 3 floaters, as well as RR1 functioning as MUCH slower).

[Pooty]

Mayhem 2 in Master System is possible to acheive 100% on without any glitches. Easy, no, possible, yes.

Fair enough.   I have tried for a while, but I keep running out of builders. Another problem I get is I can't contain the lemmings long enough to finish building the route to the exit with builders alone. I've also tried connecting a bridge to the column beneath the finish, but the lemmings bang their heads before it's complete.

I haven't given up yet, though. When I get back home tonight, I'm thinking that my dear beloved climbers might have a say, and tackle the problem from a different angle.

Edit: YEEESS!! That Climber idea worked a treat. 100% achieved on Mayhem 2.

[namida]

Congratulations.

By the way, is your avatar photoshopped, or is there actually an editor for the SMS version out there?

[Pooty]

Photoshopped, i'm afraid. Lemmings for the SMS isn't programmed as simple as the other SMS games i've looked at. For the most part, it makes sense, but i'm not sure how the game pieces the levels together.

Anyway, that's a different topic for another time.

I have found more glitches for the Master System version, and they involve bashers. Controlled pausing and unpausing will freeze a basher while the other lemmings keep moving. Timing is crucual in order to see this work. Not often enough will not trigger the glitch. Too often will also freeze the walkers.

The other glitch is bashers can pass through blockers if timed well.

[Minim]

It IS possible to drown the lemmings in Flurry 8, Vacation in Gemland. I've always wanted to do that.

I love to do it as well. Can you show me a replay under the "Blooper solutions" topic?

[Clam]

Hey, that's a great idea! I'll do it right now.

[Fernito]

I was trying namida's Tricky 12-no builders challenge when I discovered by accident that you can make a basher get stuck between 2 blockers so he bashes to infinity. There must be "basheable material" in both directions in order to this glitch to work.

Well, you guys probably already know about this glitch (didn't read the whole thread, sorry). Anyway, I attached a replay. The glitch happens when the clock shows 5:20, so feel free to fast forward it 

[Minim]

Well, you guys probably already know about this glitch

No! You have just found a completely innovative glitch!

[Fernito]

OMG! Did I?

[Clam]

Like everything else in Lemmings, this has been discovered already. In fact I wouldn't even consider it a glitch, rather a (admittedly bizarre) combination of intended game mechanics.

Don't let this discourage you - I've been there before. Several times, in fact. I thought I'd found something completely new when I found that falling "oh-no"ing blockers take trigger areas with them - and then I found a custom level, made years ago, that uses this in its solution.

[Fernito]

haha, don't worry. As soon as this "pseudoglitch" happened to me, I supposed that I wasn't the first one finding it

PS: would love to play that custom level that uses the blocker-trigger area glitch you mentioned Do you have a link or something?

[Clam]

If you've played a lot of custom levels, then you may well have seen it before. I won't post the link here though - I doubt the author would mind if I did, but just to be absolutely sure, I'll PM you instead.

[chaos_defrost]

Here's the youtube video of geoo89's solution:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=by3MunMkw1M

As it turns out, it's pretty easy to get decent screen recordings off of Lemmix, if I just set the screen resolution low enough and set the capture framerate to something low like 20 (since the actual game uses a low framerate anyway).

It's quite a bit late, but this is one of the most amazing videos I've ever seen. Not even one of the most amazing Lemmings videos, but the most amazing videos of any kind.

[Dullstar]

Has this glitch been discovered yet?

Lemmings 2 Glitch, see attachment.

The glitch may have something to do with the 16x8 tiles thing, but I don't know.  Either way, it's interesting.

[Pooty]

Odd. I wonder how that happened. Clearly some funky tile stuff at work here. Did the trapdoor look like that as and after it opened, or did it revert?

[Dullstar]

I didn't notice it at first, so I don't know.  If anyone can find out how to make it happen, I'd love to know.

[Adam]

A couple of Sega Master System glitches, and one semi-glitch.

If a faller doesn't splat when landing on water, they can be saved by building immediately as they hit on water. Similarly, once a digger has finished digging and is about to fall, you can make the digger build a platform on thin air.

On levels with multiple entrances, when you build over one entrance, the bricks are copied onto other entrances.

You can stop diggers with blockers, they will stop digging and start walking in the direction they were going.

[Clam]

Has this glitch been discovered yet?

Lemmings 2 Glitch, see attachment.

The glitch may have something to do with the 16x8 tiles thing, but I don't know.  Either way, it's interesting.

I just tried to reproduce this, but without success. I managed to get the lemmings a position identical to those in your pic, but the trapdoor appeared normal. Strangely, while the lemmings were all in the same positions in my game, their animation frames were different - the blocker was looking the other way, the two lemmings on the right had their arms in different positions (meaning their animations were 4 frames off compared to yours), and the crowd on the left looked different too (perhaps drawn in the opposite order?) I'm using the "fixed" version of L2, maybe that has something to do with it.


And while I was testing this, I found something even weirder. I set the blocker to explode, and while it was counting down, the two lemmings on the right struck an invisible wall (which didn't exist before or after this occurence) and turned around. See attached pic: note that the blocker is counting down to explode, and the lemmings on the right are spaced exactly the same as in Dullstar's pic.

I have managed to reproduce this behaviour on another level (Classic 1). The key to making it work seems to be the basher. If you set the blocker, use a basher (anywhere seems to work) and then explode the blocker, then there's a chance you might notice something odd.

[Clam]

I'm surprised this hasn't got a much greater response, considering how bizarre it is. Anyway, I think it would be better for Lemmings 2 glitches to have their own thread, so I'm going to start one now.

Link to new thread

[alfonz1986]

Another borderline glitch is when digging down an edge (a few pixels out) if you turn the lemming into a blocker he stops digging and falls down as a walker straight away.

One more: When digging down if another lemming travelling the opposite direction is made into a digger at the exact same location as the original digger. He takes over and the other lemming is freed. So now you have a digger facing the opposite direction. Very useful for crowd control without builders.

[Yawg]

I would say both of those phenomena fall under the category of obscure (or familiar, for some  ) game mechanics.  For example, the digger+blocker combo simply takes advantage of the fact that a digger only needs one pixel under him to keep digging, and it can be on his extreme left or right (actually, the pixel doesn't even have to be under the digger of course; the "digger field" extends one pixel beyond his feet on both sides), whereas a blocker needs a couple pixels of terrain directly under his feet to remain a blocker.

The second "glitch" is similarly dependent on subtle (albeit probably intentional) game mechanics. If a digger has no terrain under him within his "field", he stops digging, and a second digger can create this situation quite easily.

Doubtless, however, these are both very useful mechanics for us level authors to take advantage of 

[GigaLem]

What are the most known lemmings gliches?

[Yawg]

As far as I know, all currently known glitches are listed towards the beginning of this thread.

[Clam]

Giga was asking for the "most known" glitches. I'd guess that removing steel by digging near it (if you consider it a "glitch") is probably one of the better known ones, since it's easy to do by accident.

[alfonz1986]

To be honest, the game would be such a pain in the ass without the steel glitch. For instance if you're bashing/digging a long way only to find there was a single pixel overlap with the steel and he stops dead. The game probably would have had worse reviews for frustration! Plus the fact it opens up all these interesting opportunities for us diehards.

[Yawg]

True, but steel glitches can also be the bane of level designers and players alike. For example, when a steel area doesn't align exactly over the steel and while it looks like you can bash right under/over it, the field actually extends beyond the graphical steel and your basher still stops.

Or when, no matter how you position your steel, the fact that it can be blown up/ bashed through makes it completely impossible to prevent back routes to your otherwise well-constructed level. I would personally like very much to some day create levels in a popular editor with perfected steel mechanics.

[Clam]

To be honest, the game would be such a pain in the ass without the steel glitch. For instance if you're bashing/digging a long way only to find there was a single pixel overlap with the steel and he stops dead.

In Lemmings 2, diggers can overlap steel slightly and they won't stop. The steel remains intact though, so you end up with a narrower tunnel rather than no tunnel at all.

True, but steel glitches can also be the bane of level designers and players alike. For example, when a steel area doesn't align exactly over the steel and while it looks like you can bash right under/over it, the field actually extends beyond the graphical steel and your basher still stops.

Yep, steel areas being separate from steel terrain is a PITA. Especially since the steel objects have to align with the 4x4 grids, whereas steel terrain doesn't (and in some cases, can't because of its dimensions).

I would personally like very much to some day create levels in a popular editor with perfected steel mechanics.

L++ has similar steel mechanics to Lemmings 2. And better still, you can play levels made in Lemmix without any changes. Other mechanics differences might cause problems in existing levels, but for now it's as good as you're going to get.

[ccexplore]

I would personally like very much to some day create levels in a popular editor with perfected steel mechanics.

L++ has similar steel mechanics to Lemmings 2. And better still, you can play levels made in Lemmix without any changes. Other mechanics differences might cause problems in existing levels, but for now it's as good as you're going to get.

As a quick if futile reminder, there's also Cheapo, which behaves similarly with regards to steel. Yes I know, no one seems to be using it anymore, and its levels and styles are not compatible with Lemmix or L++.  On the other hand, there're more existing levels out there created for Cheapo than L++.  Anyhoo...

[alfonz1986]

New glitch?

I observed something weird that happens with a climber when he reaches the top of a wall that has one overhanging pixel. Sometimes the climber is able to climb past the pixel, other times he hits his head and falls. I did some messing around with such a situation in Wild 11 and it seems that whether or not he falls depends on the height at which he started climbing. If u notice as the lemming climbs, he pulses up and down at a steady pace. Im guessing something to do with this cycle determines whether or not he climbs through.

Sounds like an interesting idea for a custom level 

Heres a replay of what I found on Wild 11:

[geoo]

Yeah, I noticed this strange behaviour in a level of mine once where it ruined some attempts at the solution.
That glitch also works in reverse:
Assume you have a one-pixel gap (a horizontal gap, in this case) atop a wall and a ceiling above, while you'd expect the lemmings to always climb up, there are instances, depending on the climbing height again, where they don't. Here's a small sketch as for what I mean:

Code: [Select]

######## <-- ceiling
         <-- one-pixel gap
####
####     <-- you climb this wall
####


[alfonz1986]

I came across an interesting and rather efficient way to dig a crowd control pit into steel. Its requires 2 blockers, 2 diggers and a basher to free one of the blockers assuming ur wanting to save 100%. Also it works best when the lemmings are falling onto the steel either from the portal or a ledge so that they can walk through the blocker without being deflected.

I know there are other ways to dig pits in steel but I think this is the most elegant method I've come across, also with the highest success rate.

I've replayed two examples from Tricky 13 and Tricky 9.

Its a pretty solid start if ur going for the Tricky 9 100% no builder solution 

[namida]

I would say both of those phenomena fall under the category of obscure (or familiar, for some  ) game mechanics.  For example, the digger+blocker combo simply takes advantage of the fact that a digger only needs one pixel under him to keep digging, and it can be on his extreme left or right (actually, the pixel doesn't even have to be under the digger of course; the "digger field" extends one pixel beyond his feet on both sides), whereas a blocker needs a couple pixels of terrain directly under his feet to remain a blocker.

The second "glitch" is similarly dependent on subtle (albeit probably intentional) game mechanics. If a digger has no terrain under him within his "field", he stops digging, and a second digger can create this situation quite easily.

Doubtless, however, these are both very useful mechanics for us level authors to take advantage of 

The latter is hardly a new idea. Although I've found other (arguably much neater) solutions since, my original intended solution to To The End (From the LP+ DOS Project, and earlier, LP3 on Cheapo) used the dig-under-a-digger-to-stop-him trick very excessively.

[Minim]

Bump. I've discovered a new glitch while I was creating a new level for Holiday lemmings. I've brought the level here to show you along with a Lemmix replay too (This level has Christmas Graphics, so it's worth playing on the H93 version).

The glitch involves a lemming climbing up to the top and walking on the first time, but when there is a stair placed at the bottom of the floor he will then climb up and fall back down again when he reaches the top.

I wonder how this has happened.



Mod Edit: Restored attachments.

[ccexplore]

Um, take a look at a few posts above (reply #125), geoo described exactly the same thing you're seeing.

I can tell you that if you make the pixel at (580,110) not terrain [the bottom-left corner pixel of the steel block right above the one you are climbing), the problem should go away.

Probably not worth explaining how it comes about, but basically, there are basically two things the game needs to check a climber for:

  1) whether it has reached the top of the wall, and therefore can start transitioning back to walking
  2) whether it hits its head on an overhang and should fall

You'd think that the game would do both things on each frame where movement occurs, but instead, it's more like during 4 animation frames it does #1 only, and then during the next 4 frames it does #2 only, and so forth.  And also it only changes the lemming's vertical y-position during either #1 or #2 only (forgot which one off top of my head), but before doing the "hits head" check.  The basic end result of this strange, incomprehensible order of processing is that, depending on height of climb, in some cases a climb would succeed despite an overhang, while at other times a "false overhang" like the one you have could still abort the climb.

What can I say, climber mechanics in Lemmings is full of strange behavior.  I believe the very first post of this thread already listed like 2 or 3 more well-known glitches about climbers......

[Gronkling]

Some lemmini glitches:

• Climbers climbing through terrain when stuck- Just like DOS but the the lemming rises faster
• Skipping 1 pixel gaps with miners- Same as DOS
• Giants leap - Same as DOS
• Bashing through arrows- Needs special requirements that I'm not sure on.
• Bashers stopping one pixel for the edge of terrain- Usually annoying but good for crowd control
• Building through one pixel walls
• When a blocker is placed just next to a wall and a climber climbs up it the climber gets pushed to the right.
             V-- Climber ends up here
         X <--Blocker
  ####
  ####<-- Climber climbs here
  ####
  ####
• Climbers randomly fall when they reach the top- Not sure what causes this
• Climbers get stuck with miners if you time it right - See the second level on this video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SC6qIiTUWb4 (Starts at 1:42)
• Climbers are walkers for 1 frame if terrain is removed- Same as DOS
• Lemmini crashes if the climber glitch hits the ceiling of the level
• Miners turn around when they hit the edge of the level
• Terrain can be hidden of the side of the map
• Miners/Diggers can be stopped with a well timed blocker
• When a climber finishes climbing it floats as a walker for 1 frame where only a blocker can be assigned - Completely useless 

I think that's all I know of in lemmini.

[ccexplore]

Cool!  It's amazing how many of the PC Lemmings glitches carry over in some form to Lemmini.  During Lemmini development I explicitly did not try to steer the developer into matching mechanics and glitches with PC Lemmings, since it already started off with hi-res graphics so it seems pointless to make it fully emulate PC Lemmings.  And yet so many familiar glitches in Lemming still carry over.  Wonder how many are be design (ie. maybe someone else wanted Lemmini to copy a glitch in PC Lemmings and the developer obliged?!?) and how many are by accident?

[Gronkling]

All the lemmini only glitches have a 99.9% chance of being unintentional. The others i'm not sure about. The giant leap glitch and climber glitch could be intentional because they are very useful for challenges and are quite strange meaning that the effects would be quite hard to program accidently. Those glitches are also extremely useful for challenges, levels and backrouting. Also there is no steel glitches in lemmini even though nearly all systems have it. This could show that glitches were not deliberately put in because they probably would have put in at least one steel glitch.
Oh well, it's still a mystery. 

Also another glitch/useful game mechanic that works in DOS and lemmini:

Skills can be assigned whilst the climber glitch is happening due to the fact that lemmings turn into walkers for one frame. This could be when they turn around so is probably not a glitch but it is extremely useful.

EDIT:

New extremely weird glitch:

Climbers skip over 1 pixel gaps sometimes. I can't really explain much so see the level and replay on the attachment. I'll research this some more.

More info: This is caused by the fact that once lemmings have finished climbing they are elavated by one pixel for one frame. As there is only one pixel for it to climb into it gets stuck in the terrain above the gap. It is near the edge so it gets pushed to the side and just starts climbing up the wall again. You can use other skills whilst the lemming is stuck in terrain for one frame. Using a blocker will make the lemming just go through the pixel gap and carry on as if it were a normal gap. This is basicaly the glitch I described in the above post which I said was 'Completely useless'. You can also use a basher which stops the lemming climbing but it stays facing the same way so it starts climbing the wall straight after it has finished falling. Finally you can use a miner but this it just makes it mine normally apart from the fact it is one pixel higher then it should normally be. Floaters and bombers can also be applied but you can use those anywhere anyway. Diggers and builders can not be used. If there is a ceiling above the pixel gap the lemming just falls down as if there was no pixel gap at all.