Author Topic: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner  (Read 11599 times)

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Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #15 on: July 12, 2023, 10:08:26 PM »
Got it!

Here's the pop sound effect from Dos Lemmings 2
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #16 on: July 13, 2023, 12:10:27 AM »
I slowed the video to a crawl and counted every frame of the lemming's footstep movements against the balloon frames.
I definitely can only see 8.

And then, the other 9 whilst the lem is floating upwards ;P

Got it!

Here's the pop sound effect from Dos Lemmings 2

Brilliant, thanks! :)



I've made a good amount of progress with the Ballooner, got a basic implementation sorted, vertical-upwards motion with a slight diagonal drift, only a single terrain check and a few skill/state interactions so far. I'll upload a demo video soon.

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #17 on: July 13, 2023, 12:37:18 AM »
Here's another pop sound.

With that first one I forgot I had my soundblaster sound card set to enable slight chorus and reverb.

This one is full 48000 hz sample rate and has no effect on it. just the raw sample.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #18 on: July 13, 2023, 01:05:59 AM »
This one is full 48000 hz sample rate and has no effect on it. just the raw sample.

Thanks again, Jeremy, much appreciated :)

Here's a video demo of the Ballooner skill as it is currently.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #19 on: July 13, 2023, 04:53:20 PM »
:lem-mindblown:

This has to be the fastest record for skill implementation I've seen so far. :thumbsup:

(Of course, by "implementation", I mean "functional enough for a test / video demonstration"; not to imply that this were already confirmed as a permanent feature of SuperLemmix. :D)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2023, 09:26:13 PM »
The Ballooner is close to being ready for pre-release testing!

I'd like to include this and one other skill in 2.5 - so, we need to decide which.

Let's discuss that here.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2023, 10:21:21 AM »
Apparently, you activate SuperLemming when programming SuperLemmix :lem-mindblown: .
It's only been a few days since the first suggestion, and here we are already! :thumbsup: Great work, WillLem!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2023, 01:05:24 AM »
The Ballooner is now ready for pre-release testing!

It's more or less fully implemented. We have top-to-toe collision detection, skill shadow, low-res animation, basic transitions and skill/object interaction sorted. Need to add editor, talisman and hotkey support (and a hi-res animation) - but these should be done in time for the pre-release.

Would anyone like to volunteer to give this one a test flight?



Questions that need answering:

1) The Ballooner should change diagonal-drift orientation, as in the above gif. However, we could make it so the lem stays facing the same direction. Which do we prefer?

2) When reaching the top of the level, should the Balloon pop as it does when reaching overhead terrain, or should they bob around at the top until the skill is cancelled (current behaviour)?
« Last Edit: March 09, 2024, 10:11:29 PM by WillLem »

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2023, 01:41:04 AM »
My vote:

1. He should change direction. Anything else would seem wrong to me. But, I'm not completely sure.
2. It should pop. Couldn't it bob forever otherwise?

I wanna be a ballooner tester too!

With Lemmings 2 changing balloon direction does NOT change lemming direction. I'm not suggesting we copy that, but they
might have done this for good reasons. (Bumping sides pops too) Testing might help.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2023, 02:00:57 AM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2023, 05:46:41 AM »
Great job, WillLem! :thumbsup: Here's my take on your questions?

Quote
Questions that need answering:

1) The Ballooner should change diagonal-drift orientation, as in the above gif. However, we could make it so the lem stays facing the same direction. Which do we prefer?

2) When reaching the top of the level, should the Balloon pop as it does when reaching overhead terrain, or should they bob around at the top until the skill is cancelled (current behaviour)?

1) If the drift direction changes, but the lemming stays facing the same direction, that would make the Ballooner fly backwards. If that's what player's want, we can talk about the "Backwards Walkers" gimmick again. :D But so far, if we keep thinking of the Ballooner as an upward Glider, then just like the Glider changes the direction it faces when changing its drifting direction, so should the Ballooner. In short, keep it as it is right now. ;)

2) Isn't the ceiling still deadly? What happens in Lemmings 2: The Tribes, where the ceiling is deadly, too?
??? I would expect the balloon to carry the lemming beyond the upper level border, and would therefore expect the lemming to die. :evil:
This would be an interesting restriction, to prevent the player from just assigning the Ballooner anywhere they want. Keep in mind the Ballooner can get over a lot of obstacles that Climbers can't get over, so they need something to balance out this power. And the potential danger of a lemming going beyond the level border (which, to be fair, can happen to Climbers, too) does not only seem interesting to me, but might even be vital in preventing the Ballooner from becoming overpowered.

If the level designer makes the ceiling solid by placing terrain all across it, then of course the balloon would pop, just like it does when it hits overhead terrain anywhere else in the level.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2023, 01:40:44 PM »
1. He should change direction. Anything else would seem wrong to me. But, I'm not completely sure.
---
With Lemmings 2 changing balloon direction does NOT change lemming direction
so far, if we keep thinking of the Ballooner as an upward Glider, then just like the Glider changes the direction it faces when changing its drifting direction, so should the Ballooner

The Ballooner doesn't have to be an upwards Glider, it can be whatever we want it to be. Turning around does seem the best way to go, but let's try it both ways and see which we prefer.

2. It should pop. Couldn't it bob forever otherwise?

It bobs around until cancelled by Walker, Shimmier or Jumper. So, effectively, the lemming becomes unavailable and it becomes a matter of strategy whether a cancelling skill is used to "rescue" a Ballooner from the top of the level. Speaking of which...

2) Isn't the ceiling still deadly? What happens in Lemmings 2: The Tribes, where the ceiling is deadly, too?[/b] ??? I would expect the balloon to carry the lemming beyond the upper level border, and would therefore expect the lemming to die. :evil:
This would be an interesting restriction, to prevent the player from just assigning the Ballooner anywhere they want.

...the SLX level top isn't deadly, it's modelled on the Amiga L1 level top and its various interactions (doesn't turn Builders, but does prevent lemmings accessing the top of the level). This was done mainly so that Jumpers and Projectiles can continue their arc back into the level, but also because I don't want the top and sides to be deadly in general.

Just to confirm - yes, Ballooners disappear out of the top of the level in L2. And yes, this means that preventing Ballooners from accessing the top of the level becomes part of the challenge of using them. This is worthwhile.

Hence, the decision to have them bob around at the top - they become unavailable until the Ballooner skill is cancelled, which I think is better than having them disappear altogether; the top of the level is still a threat, but the lemmings can still be rescued - best of both worlds. This means that they can be used in more interesting ways, by both designers and players.

Having said that...

If the level designer makes the ceiling solid by placing terrain all across it, then of course the balloon would pop, just like it does when it hits overhead terrain anywhere else in the level.

...whilst it is important to take potential level design into account, I generally prefer to be a voice saying "let's not worry too much about level design specifics." The reason being that what I've observed tends to end up happening is the conversation gets bogged down in hypothetical scenarios, the overall concept gets lost, and decisions get made which unnecessarily limit the skill's versatility and range for the sake of only one of many possible uses.

we can talk about the "Backwards Walkers" gimmick again

SLX most likely won't be getting any of the skill/movement-affecting gimmicks - for the most part, I think it's a good thing these were removed.

The only gimmicks I think were worthwhile are:

- Superlemming (which has be re-inroduced in SLX as of 2.4!)
- Frenzy (which is available as a "Play Without Pressing Pause" talisman rather than forced on the player)
- Karoshi (which I'm thinking might also be good as a talisman, but since talismans require the level to have been completed, I'm not sure how this would work)
- Wrap (which will be implemented as soon as I can figure out how to move lemmings across large distances without crashing the game!)
- Rising Water (alongside Wrap, we can potentially re-make some of the Revolutions levels in SLX! It also has the potential to make the Swimmer a more interesting skill. If re-implemented, it will probably be its own object type, and, like in Revolutions, will likely be triggered by a switch)

Beyond that, I've looked over the list of old gimmicks many times and the others are all mostly very tiresome once the novelty has worn off. So, just making this clear before there are any actual suggestions to bring these back (I realise your comment may have just been in passing).

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2023, 10:08:36 AM »
Quote
...the SLX level top isn't deadly, it's modelled on the Amiga L1 level top and its various interactions (doesn't turn Builders, but does prevent lemmings accessing the top of the level). This was done mainly so that Jumpers and Projectiles can continue their arc back into the level, but also because I don't want the top and sides to be deadly in general.

Thanks, I discovered that in the meantime. :evil: The top edge makes sense with the projectiles, and won't affect that many of my levels, given how the ceiling was solid in Old Formats, so I already had to add terrain on a lot of older levels when converting them to New Formats. The non-lethal left and right edges however will require more changes to my existing material, since this is essentially a return to Very-Old Formats NeoLemmix (1.43), minus the ability to climb the level sides.

But as for the Ballooner, yes, I guess having them bop around at the top level edge is better - because if they do go beyond the upper level border, like a projectile, but don't die there like in Lemmings 2, then we'd have lemmings that are still considered to be in the level, but are no longer accessible.

Quote
...whilst it is important to take potential level design into account, I generally prefer to be a voice saying "let's not worry too much about level design specifics." The reason being that what I've observed tends to end up happening is the conversation gets bogged down in hypothetical scenarios, the overall concept gets lost, and decisions get made which unnecessarily limit the skill's versatility and range for the sake of only one of many possible uses.

Alright, thanks for the explanation! :D This is a very different approach than in (especially New-Formats) NeoLemmix, but I welcome it! :thumbsup: Leaving more autonomy to the designers of individual packs, rather than limiting the skill for everyone.

Quote
SLX most likely won't be getting any of the skill/movement-affecting gimmicks - for the most part, I think it's a good thing these were removed.

The only gimmicks I think were worthwhile are:

Oh wow, I wasn't aware you were even considering bringing some gimmicks back at all, on top of everything you're already doing for SuperLemmix. :lem-mindblown:
I didn't expect to see any gimmicks ever again. So I'll be happy for any single one we might eventually end up getting! :thumbsup:
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2023, 03:08:13 PM »
"and, like in Revolutions, will likely be triggered by a switch"...


I think we should get some new switches that look like toggle switches too. Toggled left for off, and right for on like revolutions.
I just like the look, it's nothing to do with copying revolutions really.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2023, 03:21:37 PM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #28 on: August 03, 2023, 10:34:09 PM »
I'm happy to announce that the Ballooner is now confirmed for inclusion as a new skill in SuperLemmix 2.6! :lemcat:

Here's a demo video showing the Ballooner in action. A recent update added the ability to pop balloons with airborne projectiles!

« Last Edit: March 09, 2024, 11:59:55 PM by WillLem »

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Ballooner
« Reply #29 on: August 04, 2023, 11:11:07 AM »
Great job, WillLem! :thumbsup: I look forward to trying out the skill myself!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels