Poll

If you could pick one of these...

Laser-Blaster (angled)
6 (35.3%)
Two new skills: Projectile constructive, projectile destructive (with same arc)
4 (23.5%)
Slider (either temporary or permanent)
6 (35.3%)
Jetboarder
1 (5.9%)

Total Members Voted: 17

Author Topic: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill  (Read 11163 times)

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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #210 on: July 22, 2020, 07:14:06 am »
My standpoint is still that I am ok with projectiles and an angled laser blaser, as they provide something that we completely lack right now: Range.

As we already have a lot of similar methods that can achieve almost everything the slider can with ease (glider, floater, updrafts, force fields and tons of options to simulate the turnaround), I still stand by that it is a waste of a skill slot at our current state. The explanations and proofs to this were discussed excessivly before. Of course people see level potential at first glance here, but on a second look I guarantee that in almost all scenarios the slider can be substituted with something we have right now with little to no hassle.
The only cases where it cannot be substituted very easily would be the case where it gets combined with a ton of other movement skills, but especially with the new jumper I think our parkour options are big enough already and a new constructive or destructive skill would be a better addition.
Would we make a new engine and decide which skills we want in there then the slider could be an excellent idea, now it isn't.

So both of the other options (projectiles and laser blaster) would have my blessing as they are way less redundant and provide something that we don't have right now.

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #211 on: July 22, 2020, 09:29:22 am »
Quote
Do you think we can narrow it down to a contest between these three now?

I don't think it's very likely that any other viable options will come along at this point, but there's no harm in leaving the topic open until I'm ready to start the "let's see which of these shows the most potential" phase.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #212 on: July 22, 2020, 09:30:23 am »
Thanks for the response, namida! ;)

@others:

I do think the Downward Builder has been officially discarded. However, as I said before, I think, the basic concept of a Downward Builder could be combined with a constructive range skill:

By implementing the L2 Roper with a fixed trajectory. (namida definitely stated there will be no "assign the skill, assign the direction", but a fixed-angle Roper would throw his projectile much like the Spear Thrower would, except there would be a rope attached to it that can act as a bridge. If the projectile itself is shaped like a spear, I proposed to call this skill "The Harpooner" :D ; if it's shaped like an "anchor" or hook, as in L2, I'd suggest to just stick with the Roper.)

The important part about this is that the rope can tear when the distance is too long, but the projectile (the anchor / hook) keeps flying. Thus, it could still serve as a thrown projectile, just like a (Spear) Thrower would. For example, to break falls by slamming the anchor by itself into a wall, or to make a ceiling that prevents a Climber from going up. Here the flat spear shape might come in handy, as IchoTolot pointed out earlier, because a spear could serve as a ceiling for a Shimmier. This is not possible in L2 (Climbers just climb through the spear), but it would be consistent with NeoLemmix physics.


Secondly, I think there is a case to be made for the Laser Blaster being a "destructive projectile skill".

The pairing is currently framed as "one creative, one destructive projectile", but we could potentially interpret it more liberally as "one creative, one destructive ranged skill".

The Roper would be a ranged constructive skill that indeed also uses a projectile - it's just much more flexible than a mere (Spear) Thrower, without being as broken as the L2 Roper that can single-handedly replace Builders and Platformers in many cases.

The Laser Blaster would be a ranged destructive skill. It could still achieve a lot of the purposes of an explosive, Bomber-like projectile (e.g. denting ceilings and walls to stop Shimmiers / Climbers, although some of those cases might require steel in order to stop the Laser Blaster at the right point). But it could also act like a Fencer at a distance or an upward Digger.

(Dullstar's comparison to the Fencer is actually a point in the skill's favour in my book, because in contrast to him, according to his own words, that is, I've been getting a lot of uses out of the Fencer! :P
It's also noteworthy that Fencer tunnels are the only ones that are too narrow for Shimmiers. I'm pretty sure this wouldn't be the case with diagonal Laser-Blaster tunnels, since digging diagonally upward through the ceiling would of course lend itself very well to Shimmier interactions.
The problem for the Shimmier would probably not be insufficient height of the tunnel, but its steep increase. We were talking about potentially having Laser-Blaster tunnels with an altitude-to-longitude ratio of 6:1, i.e. just enough for regular Walkers to ascend over.)


Thus, my degree of support for the two-projectiles option depends heavily on what skills would count as potential candidates for these ranged constructive and destructive skills.

If it's already predictable that the destructive skill will be some sort of Bazooker / Mortar and the creative skill a (Spear) Thrower, then I'd consider those too limited. I'd rather just have the Laser Blaster or Slider on its own, in that case.

If however the destructive ranged skill can technically also be the Laser Blaster, and the creative skill the hook of a Roper (with the option of having the rope attached to the hook), then I'm all in! :thumbsup:

This would be two L2 skills for the "price" of one, and two very flexible ones. That might actually be enough to make me drop my support for the Slider.


Quote from: WillLem
for instance, Slider>Jumper would have to be possible for it to be a worthwhile skill

Yes, that is definitely possible in L2, and I don't see any reason why it shouldn't be in NeoLemmix if the Slider were to become the skill of choice. ;)
« Last Edit: July 22, 2020, 09:37:27 am by Strato Incendus »
My packs so far:
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Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #213 on: July 22, 2020, 09:33:28 am »
Quote
The pairing is currently framed as "one creative, one destructive projectile", but we could potentially interpret it more liberally as "one creative, one destructive ranged skill".

No we couldn't, because the reason the two are paired is specifically because of the extent to which they can share code. If they follow the same path, have the same collision detection etc, and all they need to do differently is create vs destroy terrain (and display a different graphic), this is barely more work than one skill.

On the other hand, having a typical projectile constructive skill + the ranged laser blaster is very much two seperate skills in terms of workload.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #214 on: August 07, 2020, 06:06:20 pm »
Thanks for the explanation, namida! Sorry, I must have missed it initially. I hadn't thought of coding similarity, but is totally makes sense.

In that case, as announced previously, that's me out on projectiles. My support goes to either the Slider or the Laser Blaster. And it seems like the poll is in accordance with this.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline namida

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Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new skill
« Reply #215 on: August 07, 2020, 07:05:08 pm »
The main goal of the poll was to eliminate any major underdogs (in this case: the jetboarder), not to outright pick winner(s). While the projectiles did get less votes, it wasn't enough of a margin to rule them out by any means.

Decisions between the remaining three might ultimately be decided by a poll (to clarify, this would be an "after some serious discussion about their potential + maybe even test runs"), but that will come later - as I've said, V12.11 is the soonest we'd be getting a new skill; for V12.10 the focus is on the menu adjustments.
« Last Edit: August 10, 2020, 07:45:41 pm by namida »