Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Pit Lems  (Read 18749 times)

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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Pit Lems
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2020, 07:06:32 PM »
Yeah, that's what I feared - in hindsight, once you know the solution, you can definitely see how the information about the ceiling helps.

I regarded it as a general hint on Old Formats, not a hint on this specific level. But of course, the association is created if it doesn't become relevant until a particular level.

That's why I mentioned it explicitly on the very first Lemmicks level, so that I wouldn't have to bring it up again later. I just expected the player to know it at this point (but still, some players regularly forgot about it again). But as said before, Pit Lems didn't include this hint on level 01 to remember it for later, because at that time, those were the current physics that didn't require any explanation. Therefore, at the time of Pit Lems' original release, I wouldn't have given anyone this hint who didn't ask for it.

Now however, I couldn't be sure whether you were more used to New Formats or Old Formats, and thus, if you were aware of the physics differences. ;) If not, there wouldn't have been any way for you to solve the level, and this would have been unfair towards you. Basically like hidden information, resulting in a binary win condition (see the thread in level design). But of course, there was no way of asking you whether you were aware of the differences, without the question itsrlf already giving you a hint this might be relevant for the level. ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Pit Lems
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2020, 11:30:16 PM »
And Pit Lems is done! :) Feedback for the pack and final two ranks to come later on.

I regarded it as a general hint on Old Formats, not a hint on this specific level. But of course, the association is created if it doesn't become relevant until a particular level.

Yea, I can see that now, and to be fair, I happened to still reason and figure out the solution correctly on my own, so therefore you didn't really give anything away. However, moving forward let me make it clear that just because I stated I'm currently stuck on a level it doesn't mean I'm asking for a hint :P Generally, the clearest way I indicate to the author that I need a bit of a hint is if I send my best replay attempt. There were a couple of levels I did that for in United, and Icho gave me a vague hint that didn't give anything away so that allowed me to think and still figure out the solution for myself. Even if I don't, I will play it safe and attach a NO HINTS YET to my post.
 
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Therefore, at the time of Pit Lems' original release, I wouldn't have given anyone this hint who didn't ask for it.

That's exactly what I did. I WASN'T asking for a hint at all, all my post was letting you know was that OMFG 20 was stumping me for the time being.

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Now however, I couldn't be sure whether you were more used to New Formats or Old Formats, and thus, if you were aware of the physics differences. ;)

Oh for sure I'm more used to New Formats (my United posts span 6 months, but I started playing United since September of last year, so really I've been used to New Formats for an entire year). On the other hand, I did play some packs for Old Formats in between whenever I got really stuck on United, but in total I have pretty much only spent about a month with Old Formats. With Lemmicks for very Old Formats, it was about a month as well.

Yes, I was well aware of the physics differences between Old Formats and New Formats in regards to the borders, but having played New Formats for a way much longer time, I was definitely bound to forget. That was certainly the case a few weeks ago when I started playing Old Formats again after 4-5 months since the last time I played Old Formats. When you stated to remember the differences, I remember thinking other than the level borders, I don't know any other differences. Deadly sides I remember, what I didn't remember was the solid ceiling still carried over from very Old Formats. As I mentioned before, there was some level (don't remember which one) in Paralems where I encountered the ceiling and was taken by surprise that the lemmings didn't die. Thus, I was aware of the solid ceiling before I reached OMFG 20, and so the fact that I got stumped simply meant it didn't occur to me that the ceiling was integral to the solution.

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If not, there wouldn't have been any way for you to solve the level, and this would have been unfair towards you. Basically like hidden information, resulting in a binary win condition (see the thread in level design). But of course, there was no way of asking you whether you were aware of the differences, without the question itsrlf already giving you a hint this might be relevant for the level. ;)

Actually, I didn't think the level was unfair in any way. OMFG 20 is completely 100% fair. The ceiling being part of the solution is not really hidden information in the same sense of hiding stuff inside walls, for example. That's hidden information, with the deliberate attempt to troll, and as I understand that's highly frowned upon by most of the community. However, the ceiling is not hidden information. Level borders are always present, but whether or not you will be able to interact with them depends on the level. Again, I'm well aware of the differences in regards to the level borders between Old Formats and New Formats. It just never occurred to me to use the ceiling to my advantage and therefore I didn't think outside the box (almost literally there for this level) enough, especially since there is even a lot of inconsistency among the different platforms. I grew up with the Dos version of Lemmings, and I know the ceiling to be solid on it. The easiest level to encounter it is Going Up in the Mayhem rank. However, there is a difference in that if you build up high enough, eventually the lemmings will place a brick and continue walking in the same direction instead of turning around. Then if you really build into the ceiling, eventually that one lemming will get stuck. I believe the right side is deadly, but the left side is not, and so attempting to go off the right side in the starting area is easy to do and will result in the lemmings dying. I know the left side is solid, and the easiest level to encounter that is NO PROBLEM in the Crazy rank of ONML.

Anyway, just reporting that I have all of Pit Lems solved and I will post my thoughts on the pack and feedback for the OMFG and FML ranks later on :)
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Pit Lems
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2020, 06:34:29 AM »
All rightie, I've attached my entire replay collection for the pack. Since I already gave you feedback for the first three ranks of the pack, this post is for feedback on the final two ranks, OMFG and FML.

OMFG Rank (click to show/hide)

FML Rank (click to show/hide)


Overall, Pit Lems is many times better than your first pack, Paralems. I definitely enjoyed the levels/puzzles here way more. Though the pack immediately starts off difficult, I definitely felt appropriately challenged and didn't get too overwhelmed with the difficulty. Let's see what LOA has in store for me when I get to it. From what I seen and read, it appears that you aren't pulling any punches at all with that pack, so maybe for even someone like me it will be quite difficult. Nevertheless, I don't mind difficult packs and I'm willing to take them on, the same way I took on United. But first, I think I'll be taking on your flagship pack LWT for Old Formats before pre-testing LOA. Plus, as has been suggested by you, I should wait until you have patched all the levels based on Armani's replays/feedback first before I play the pack. I think that's a good idea. Now that I have finished Pit Lems, I've given you even more levels to look at so that you can fix them for Pit Lems Remastered :P

In summary, excellent job with a well-done pack! :thumbsup: I loved it a lot, way more compared to Paralems. The only time I felt bored with the pack was from the pointless repeats, but otherwise I absoluely loved the way so many of the levels gave me enough of a challenge to keep me engaged and the satisfaction that came from figuring out the solutions. I definitely highly recommend this pack to anyone who hasn't played it yet, but at the same time I also agree with you that I wouldn't recommend Paralems. I simply played it because again I thought I wouldn't mind those generally hated elements most of the community frowns upon, as well as since I already started playing the pack, my personal preference of always finishing what I start.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0