December 2015 Level Collaboration

[mobius]

DynaLem's post in the last contest thread sparked my sudden interest in this:
I'm willing to host another collab project. If there is any interest.

But I think that if we do, we need to make stricter [or better] rules on it. The "super collab project"  from 2014 which DynaLem posted a link to turned out a little disorganized and we ended up with a level that wasn't solvable because people lost interest.

Perhaps we should agree before hand on somethings like: starting with a set of skills?
I think, again, we should first make a list of people who want to join and then the level will be edited in that order; if their turn comes and a person lost interest they can just bow out and the next person can go ahead. Maybe a rule stating that the level must be solvable at all times [after every edit].
Also perhaps the rule of "do not tamper with the past additions to the level" should be re-thought. Obviously completely redoing someone else's work isn't fair but as-is making a decent level is certainly difficult [with the rules I made up from the 2014 project]

So this isn't started yet, but If you're interested in participating please post with any suggestions and preferences you have; especially like what platform you'd like to use.

[namida]

I'd say the only engines we should really consider for this are NeoLemmix or Lix. L1 / traditional Lemmix has all the glitches, and more importantly, has a limit of how many pieces can be in a level, which could become problematic for such a project. (Super)Lemmini's absence of fine-control features is undesirable, and I think this might be why Lemmini is losing popularity (and why SuperLemmini never really got much of a foothold).

Of the remaining two; the advantage for NeoLemmix is its L1-like-ness and presence of the graphic sets we're all used to (and, I think more people are familiar with the NeoLemmix Editor (or at least the regular Lemmix editor, from which it isn't a huge jump to the NeoLemmix one) than the Lix editor); while the advantage for Lix is that it's cross platform and thus may allow for a larger number of participants. I could see either one being a good choice for this.

Perhaps we should agree before hand on somethings like: starting with a set of skills?

I would think that if we're going for a pre-determined set of skills, it should be something fairly generic - perhaps an "X of everything". Alternatively, we could go with an approach of "first design the level, then work together to see what kind of challenging stats and skillset we can come up with".

[mobius]

I pretty much figured it would either be NeoLemmix or Lix, doubtful enough people would be interested in the others so I didn't even mention it. Actually I think I'll enforce right now; it's going to be either of those two.

I would think that if we're going for a pre-determined set of skills, it should be something fairly generic - perhaps an "X of everything". Alternatively, we could go with an approach of "first design the level, then work together to see what kind of challenging stats and skillset we can come up with".

That's not a bad idea; of having maybe two separate parts; first the layout/map then the skills.
If there are lots of different opinions I might make a poll.

[Wafflem]

I am glad you are considering doing this again!

I will gladly participate in the collaboration. I am thinking that we could do something similar to the Contest #3 Tag-Team contest - design the terrain first and do not add any objects, change skills or level stats, etc. Once everyone agrees that the terrain layout looks good enough, then we can proceed to add the objects, skills, time, level stats, etc.

I'm thinking NeoLemmix for the engine since a majority of the people use NeoLemmix and tons of NeoLemmix packs have been released this year.

[Simon]

ended up with a level that wasn't solvable because people lost interest.

You could make solvability an invariant: Every changeset shall be submitted with a solving replay.

That's good practice anyway in level design, even if it's more effortful.

rule of "do not tamper with the past additions to the level" should be re-thought.

Yes. I feel that rule was too low-level.

At the highest level, a puzzle is a collection of ideas. The player needs to find the series of correct ideas that lead to a solution. It's nice if the ideas bind together under a common theme, or interleave with each other. You wouldn't want to kill ideas in full from a level. But you can keep ideas mostly intact even under massive restructuring of terrain.

Perhaps we should agree before hand on somethings like: starting with a set of skills?

first design the level, then work together to see what kind of challenging stats and skillset we can come up with

design the terrain first and do not add any objects, change skills or level stats, etc.

For the same reason (puzzle is collection of ideas), skillset and gadgets should be neither fixed beforehand, nor tacked on as an afterthought. They change hand-in-hand with the ideas found in the level.

-- Simon

[mobius]

some good suggestions. I'm thinking the rules will go something like this;

[After the beginning, which I haven't totally figured out yet, suggestions welcome]

Either:
next participant may add between (some fixed number of terrain pieces, haven't decided a good number yet)* And may remove or change some terrain pieces from previous entries* I think we can say; stats may be changed almost freely? This is something that; while certaintly can change the level quite a bit, isn't as personal as a terrain layout.
Now each entry must be a solvable/working level on it's own; it doesn't matter if the level is stupid easy, if you only want to lay a foundation for the next participants to work on, but it must be solvable, with a replay.

Importantly; this number is only a guidline that you should use while making your entry and if you find you must go slightly over or under to complete the idea you have that's okay.
*I think we can use the trust system here, pretty much only change the previous entries to remove a backroute or a thing that's wildly in the way of the solution you're trying to provide. Like Simon said, you can sometimes even make major changes but still keep the original idea of the level there.

For the beginning my only ideas so far are to poll the terrain or randomly select a terrain. Of course now with either Lix or Lemmix you can pretty much mix and match terrains [in Lemmix there is the epic tile set which contains all the originals together...]

I may start a small level myself [myself being the first person in line] Or I might decided to go later because my ideas are exactly flowing at the moment. I could make a poll if people want that.

Also [depending on how many people participate] I think people can go more than once, but not twice in a row.

[ccexplore]

This reminds me of a collaborative level thread back in an old incarnation of the forums, apparently already over 10 years ago (July 2005) at this point.

http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=280.0

(Good job Tim for the super-descriptive thread title [/sarcasm]. Good thing I still remember one of the participant's username off top of my head and was able to find the thread via a search off of that.)

Most of the people are no longer here.  The "guest" on that thread is me (yep, back in those innocent days before the proliferation of spambots and trolls, you could actually post without being a registered user).

The rules at the time were fairly restrictive, and it definitely introduces some issues with our first try, but in spite of all that we still managed a decent level out of it, mostly due to the talent of some of the participants.  It may be good to review the thread to get some ideas of what worked well and what didn't, and from there tweak the rules we'd use this time around.

(I don't know if I still have any of the files referenced in that thread, probably not but I'll look if I have time and there's interest.)

[mobius]

thanks, it's a good idea to look at that thread again.

I actually knew about that, it's what gave me the idea for the first one I did a year ago. And actually; both levels they made back then we put into the Revenge of Lemmings. The first one featured in the link you posted was left unsolvable [or unfinished] so I edited it, but the other [crystal] level  was a decent difficult & finished level.  I never found the thread for the crystal one I think...

[ccexplore]

The first one featured in the link you posted was left unsolvable [or unfinished] so I edited it, but the other [crystal] level  was a decent difficult & finished level.  I never found the thread for the crystal one I think...

Hmm, if I understood correctly it should be the same thread that has the crystal one (I'll have to look at your Revenge pack to see if it's indeed the level I'm thinking of)?  I know for a fact that I only participated in one, and the level I worked on used the blue crystal set in LemEdit, and it was most definitely solvable and fairly finished (in fact, I was complaining at various points about how tricky it got for the later participants in the chain to add to the level or the solution ideas), and "decently difficult & finished level" definitely would be my assessment at the time.  It was hard to tell from reading the thread that there was even a level before the crystal one, though it did mention "group 1" and "group 2" even towards the beginning of the thread, so I guess there must've been a group 1 and I participated in group 2?

This post in the thread was when I posted my contribution to the level chain I participated in (the file download link on geocities is now defunct of course).  According to the thread, Proxima even made a Cheapo version of it shortly after it was completed.

[Clam]

I'm interested in participating. I'd prefer to use Lix but happy to go with the majority.

Having the level be solvable at each iteration is a great idea - that way each iteration can stand on its own, and we have something to show whenever we stop adding to it. Potentially you could even get more than one viable level along the way.

(I don't know if I still have any of the files referenced in that thread, probably not but I'll look if I have time and there's interest.)

There are some on the lemmings file portal. It's not complete though (there's only one WIP version of the crystal level, which I presume was "group 1").

I've only skimmed the old thread so far, but probably will give it a proper read some time. It's a lovely bit of forum history

[GigaLem]

If im correct its a.....
Christmas Lix level pack?
If so i'd be happy to fire up lix again

[namida]

If im correct its a.....
Christmas Lix level pack?
If so i'd be happy to fire up lix again

If that's what you think is going on here, I think you really need to re-read the posts, or at the very least read the topic title. Reading messages is generally quite important if you want to understand what's being said.

[Nepster]

I'm interested in participating, too. But this approach differs greatly from my usual way to create levels, so I am not sure whether I will be able to contribute something useful to the level. Let's see, what the future brings.

Christmas Lix level pack?

Well, a level pack consisting of one single level (having mutiple authors) made around Christmas (though likely not entirely Christmas-themed) for a Lemmings engine yet to be determined (but maybe Lix).
See here or follow the link ccexplore posted above for previous examples of such projects.

[mobius]

FYI: So far; I have; DynaLem, Clam and Nepster, have said they definitely want to join in some fashion or another, but the others need to clarify if they actually plan to participate or not. I should've made it more clear; say "sign me up" or something like that if you'd like to be on the list. It's first come-first serve. There's no pressure for time; it's going to be a while before we begin.

The first one featured in the link you posted was left unsolvable [or unfinished] so I edited it, but the other [crystal] level  was a decent difficult & finished level.  I never found the thread for the crystal one I think...

Hmm, if I understood correctly it should be the same thread that has the crystal one (I'll have to look at your Revenge pack to see if it's indeed the level I'm thinking of)?  I know for a fact that I only participated in one, and the level I worked on used the blue crystal set in LemEdit, and it was most definitely solvable and fairly finished (in fact, I was complaining at various points about how tricky it got for the later participants in the chain to add to the level or the solution ideas), and "decently difficult & finished level" definitely would be my assessment at the time.  It was hard to tell from reading the thread that there was even a level before the crystal one, though it did mention "group 1" and "group 2" even towards the beginning of the thread, so I guess there must've been a group 1 and I participated in group 2?

This post in the thread was when I posted my contribution to the level chain I participated in (the file download link on geocities is now defunct of course).  According to the thread, Proxima even made a Cheapo version of it shortly after it was completed.

Okay, so the first level was the crystal level. It had no name that I could find so I called it "compilation". I should put your name in the credits for that level, since you're "guest".

The [second one I'm guessing] is a hell level, which they suggetsed names for; including; "Edge of Oblivion, Highway to Hell" This level; no one I asked could find a solution to it. And from reading the thread it seemed not quite finished [although near it]. I think this one also had a "guest" author but I need to check and no idea who that might be except tseug who also used a guest account often?

[ccexplore]

Okay, so the first level was the crystal level. It had no name that I could find so I called it "compilation". I should put your name in the credits for that level, since you're "guest".

The thread seems to make it fairly clear who worked on the level.  Seems like there are 6 people total?  Looks like Insane Steve also worked on it.  Given the collaborative nature I'd say all people involved on that level should be credited.  (I'll edit here when I have time to re-read the thread to gather the exact sequence of people).

I thought the last person in the chain was supposed to give it a title or something like that (hmm wait, was that person me? ).  If the title's missing, I'd say it's fair game to just come up with whatever feels right.

The [second one I'm guessing] is a hell level, which they suggetsed names for; including; "Edge of Oblivion, Highway to Hell" This level; no one I asked could find a solution to it. And from reading the thread it seemed not quite finished [although near it]. I think this one also had a "guest" author but I need to check and no idea who that might be except tseug who also used a guest account often?

I don't remember working on anything like what you described, so yeah, the "guest" there probably is tseug.  I stopped reading the thread past the post where I posted my contributions; did they no longer require the intermediate in-progress versions of the level to remain solvable for the second one?

[mobius]

Don't worry about the other credits; I already credited everyone that was included. I got all my info from a note document that was zipped with the files that was archived somewhere [DynaLem could probably tell you where]. But it was the final state and it included everyone except "guest" who they apparently didn't know was you. They seemed to call you guest on the forum too.

Oh forgot about the title; Shvegait titled it: [from page 8]

Oh, and I called the level "Collaboration", of course because of the whole concept behind the level, but also because of how the climbers have to work together.

I didn't get to the next one yet, reading old long forum threads takes time.


Anyways; it looks to me like they didn't start with any real well detailed rules but they made a very successful level anyway by working together pretty well. Teamwork wins.

[namida]

I'll be happy to join in if it's a NeoLemmix level. I haven't quite figured out how to work the Lix editor properly yet, though... although on the other hand, I guess this could be a good reason to do so. What the heck... sign me up either way!

[mobius]

Since it's sort of evenly split I'm thinking about hosting two: one each for NoeLemmix and Lix, but probably not at the same time, unless anybody wants that. In any case I'm considering NeoLemmix first because currently I'm more familiar with that. I haven't gotten used to the major changes in Lix yet.
I'll wait a while for more people to join but if they don't we'll go ahead with 5 people including myself. I'm thinking of using some random method to determine the graphic set, then I'll begin by making a very sparse and simple level.

...
NaOH invented a program for Lix that makes a randomly generated level which could be useful for this project.

[mobius]

Welcome to Lemmings forum's fourth level collab project!!


Currently the participants are:

1 mobius
2 DynaLem
3 Clam Spammer
4 Nepster
5 namida
6 IchoTolot

It's not too late to join; you may join even after it's begun, you'll simply be added to the end of the list.

Platform: NeoLemmix
link to download/info: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=1921.msg48205#msg48205

Rules:
When it is your turn [beginning at #1] Download the latest version of the level in this topic.

----you may add terrain pieces, objects,steel etc. to the level. I've decided not to pick some arbitrary number of pieces. Add as much or as little as you feel necessary; The important thing is to remember this is a group effort and that you add enough to the level to add a little of your personal touch.

-----You may remove terrain added by persons before you. But be considerate. Don't completely destroy the idea or artwork created by the previous volunteers. Rules can't adequately describe this process: Communicate! If you're not sure about what to do/if it's okay, post in this topic and talk to the people who came before you and ask questions.

----You may adjust all of the stats in any fashion. Again; communicate with us on these decisions.

----Once you've made an update that you're happy with;  Upload the changed level here in this topic along with a replay of your solution. NOTE: yes, IT MUST BE SOLVABLE in it's current state, meaning it will be solvable at any stage so it doesn't matter how many people we have (in that regard anyway). How difficult the level is will be up to the participants, particularly the final few participants. Also: please rename the file with a number and/or your name.

----Please try to have your entry done within a week's time. If it will take longer please post and let us know. If you want to withdraw or swap places with somebody else, just ask.

---Communicate with the other participants on not just your part but how you think the level is going. If you have some plan or idea of the direction the level could take; talk about it.

Because I happen to have a huge folder of partially completed levels lying around, I decided be the first person in line and I started with this. To DynaLem; download the level in this attachment to begin.

It's difficult for me to gauge how much to start with so to the next and later participants; I'm okay with just about any changes to my part. You may delete terrain or move it around. Especially the skills and stats which I kind of chose arbitrarily. This layout is supposed to be a template that can base some hopefully more interesting level off of.


-----------
on me and ccx's earlier discussion: I read through the whole topic and so it seems like indeed the 2nd LemEdit level was not really completed and no one was able to solve it+ it seems like the Cheapo level [3rd, or actual 2nd collab] was abandoned. I like to ask Proxima about that.

[Wafflem]

This will be fun!

Just a clarification question: Can I also add objects in addition to the terrain pieces I add (traps, locked exit/unlocked button, one-way arrows, etc.)?

[mobius]

yes, thanks, I fixed that in the rules. You can add objects and anything else.

[IchoTolot]

As I see it now, well möbius you can put me at position 6    
I think I'm joining in

[mobius]

alright, sounds good. I added you.

[Wafflem]

Alright, here!

Added:
-more terrain and steel
-water
-locked exit/unlock buttons
-walkers

Changed:
-Removed builders, bombers and diggers.
-The level can be solved with just one basher and miner along with the other skills, but I kept the basher and miner at 10.
-Changed to the third music of Lemmings, but anyone is welcome to change it.

[mobius]

nice! It's already a good level.

I have notified Clam it's his turn.

Btw, I thought of another rule if everybody's okay with it: At each stage; the author can do with that version of the level as he pleases [that is; put it in their own pack as a co-created level in it's current state]

[mobius]

since Clam is going away he's going to switch to the end [or after who's ever turn it is when he gets back]

So Nepster is next, I've notified him.

[Nepster]

And here is a new version already.

Goal of this change: Make the level bigger to have more space to play around.

Main change: I just mirrored the level.

Secondary changes (feel free to do whatever you like with these):
- 20 lemmings instead of 10 lemmings, because the number of hatches doubled as well. RR set to 50, because RR 1 is sooo slow.
- Removed some of the steel, that I thought ugly and saw no use for.
- Removed two unlock buttoms and kept only the necessary ones.
- Moved a few parts (e.g. the hatch) one or two pixels to have them properly centered.

General remarks:
- Even though the level is currently symmetric, it does not need to stay this way.
- The level still allows for lots of solutions, inculding one that still uses only one of the bashers and miners. The attached solution uses more skills however.

[mobius]

wow that was fast Nepster. I will notify namida his turn's up.

edit; also I totally forgot to say: nice additions to the level so far, by both DynaLem and Nepster.

[namida]

Goal of this change: Let's inject some challenge, now! Sure, people might change the challenge... but we have some, at least.

Main change: Added some steel, and a trap and an unlock button per side, near the middle. Also a tiny bit at the sides. Level remains symmetrical.

Secondary changes:
- Skillset changes: 10 Climbers -> 1 Climber; 1 Blocker -> 0 Blockers; 0 Platformers -> 10 Platformers
- Changed the music (because newer version)
- Slightly adjusted the positioning of the left side's one-way arrows for a more symmetrical look.

[mobius]

wow, this is really moving along quickly. Nice changes, again.
I've notified Icho.

[IchoTolot]

The goal of my turn was to create a 1.0 version of an interesting solution + getting the decoration in there. So that it could theoretical be a release worthy level by now and prob could be used in a pack.

I mostly left the initial level terrain setup as it is. I just did the following things:

- adding steel to the edges to prevent backroutes
- editing the steel in the middle to make the solution in my mind possible
- lowering the water by 4 pixels

To implement the solution I edited the skill panel drastically:

- Walker      10--->4
- Blocker        0--->2
- Basher      10--->4
- Digger         0--->1
- Climber       stays at 1
- Platformer 10--->1
- Miner         10--->2
- Cloner         0--->2

I couldn't resist to add the decoration (remove it if it's too much or you need the space!).
Also a proposal for a title has been added as well as a custom music track.

I think I did a little too much in this step as I read over this again , but when I am on to sth I have problems leaving it in an unfinished/unpolished state. Well remove stuff as you like to gain room for more changes

[IchoTolot]

Edit: Removed one more digger  (now 1 instead of 2) as I saw it wasn't nessesary           Attachment updated!

[mobius]

as of now it's a decently tough level. [I didn't even get a chance yet to play namida's version so it could've been there as well] This went a lot quicker than I expected, thanks for participating.
I'll try to solve it tonight/in the days ahead.

I'm guessing Clam is away already or about to go away. He said he'd either switch or drop out. But I'll let it up to everyone else on how to call this. I'd like to give him a chance to contribute so I say we wait for him before calling it finished. There's the matter of backroute fixing as well.

Some comments:
Some things are not symmetrical: in particular;

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

the collumns under the left side are closer to the center piece so that you can dig at the last collumn then platform to the center part easily but on the right side you can only "glitch" dig/platform. That is; it's farther apart so a gap is left since you must dig at the farthest edge of the collumn then platform in order to reach. Idk if this plays any part in the solution or not.

[IchoTolot]

as of now it's a decently tough level. [I didn't even get a chance yet to play namida's version so it could've been there as well] This went a lot quicker than I expected, thanks for participating.
I'll try to solve it tonight/in the days ahead.

I'm guessing Clam is away already or about to go away. He said he'd either switch or drop out. But I'll let it up to everyone else on how to call this. I'd like to give him a chance to contribute so I say we wait for him before calling it finished. There's the matter of backroute fixing as well.

Some comments:
Some things are not symmetrical: in particular;

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

the collumns under the left side are closer to the center piece so that you can dig at the last collumn then platform to the center part easily but on the right side you can only "glitch" dig/platform. That is; it's farther apart so a gap is left since you must dig at the farthest edge of the collumn then platform in order to reach. Idk if this plays any part in the solution or not.

A gap in the platform would be fatal for the solution, so it only works right now on the left side. But maybe some symm things are yet to be done in further steps (if the solution should stay similar).

[namida]

Spoilers for my version (click to show/hide)

My version of the level required platforming towards the middle from both sides. I didn't notice any inequality in the distance - if there was, then 10 Platformers was still enough to cover the solution entirely; IIRC my solution used all the skills except for 4 bashers.

[IchoTolot]

Noticed a typo in the levelname

Attached the lvl file with the corrected title. (replay is still functional as no other changes have been made)

[IchoTolot]

I've attached a new version + replay that makes the pillars on both side symmetrical -----> solution is side independent.


As it went quite for a while in this thread: Consider this the final version + add this in the community dropbox?