Author Topic: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings" (Read 44210 times)

namida · « **on:** February 17, 2015, 12:56:45 PM »

Well, here's the first publicly-available results of the efforts to get Cheapo levels running on NeoLemmix.

One warning, this is quite a large file compared to most NeoLemmix players. This is fairly unavoidable without some major changes to NeoLemmix's formats; the DAT compression algorithm simply isn't made with having every level as an 18-bit color VGASPEC in mind. I've implemented a few tricks to reduce this, but it's still fairly large. These days that shouldn't be an issue for most people, but there's your warning, just in case.

This is using the NeoLemmix V1.29n player.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ocpi57ywjmzusjb/CopycatLemmingsNeo.exe
http://www.neolemmix.com/old/neolemmix/CopycatLemmingsNeo.exe

By the way, the cheat code is...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also - if you prefer it over the Amiga musics (I'll get around to including the genuine Copycat / Cheapo ones eventually!), the music pack from either Orig or LPI will both work perfectly fine with this.

Issues, Complaints, Oddities, Etc

When reporting an issue, if you can, please let me know:
- Does the issue occur when playing in a genuine copy of Copycat Lemmings?
- Does the issue occur when playing in a genuine copy of Cheapo?
(I would've thought the answer would always be the same for both of these, but I have actually found one issue which I thought was a problem with the conversion due to a different behaviour from Copycat Lemmings, only to find out that Cheapo behaved exactly the same way.)

Issues that have been fixed in updates
- First release had a bug where objects that were meant to be horizontally flipped weren't, while objects that were vertically flipped were also horizontally flipped. This was fixed in the second version.
- Up to second release had a bug where no one-way-right arrows were converted (lefts were fine). This was fixed in the third version.
- Under Copycat/Cheapo mechanics, lemmings cannot pass thorugh a diagonal corner gap like they can in Lemmix / NeoLemmix. The 4th version adds a tweak in "Cheapo Mode" to alter this mechanic.
- Some different traps weren't working, now due to trigger areas being too high. One example is Fun 25. This was fixed in version 5.
- Since applying the diagonal-gap fix, it seemed lemmings can only step up by up to 5 pixels maximum instead of 6. This was fixed in version 5.
- Finally found and dealt with the proper source of the trap issues in verison 6; this actually arose from a difference in trigger areas between Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo.

Mechanics differences that have significant impacts
- Block-Bombing levels still have blockers, even though the norm is to remove them in NeoLemmix versions (due to the instant bombers). At this point, I have no intention to change this; I may reconsider later.

Verified bugs/issues
None at the moment

Reported bugs/issues I haven't checked on yet
None at the moment

Things that might look like problems but aren't
- Fun 27, a small part of the exit is visible. Nothing is wrong here; it was like this in the original Copycat Lemmings too.
- Direct drop works. This is just standard NeoLemmix mechanics; but with that being said, this worked in Copycat / Cheapo too anyway.

Wafflem · « **Reply #1 on:** February 17, 2015, 01:14:59 PM »

Alright, testing this player right now.

Some mistakes I've noticed:
Fun 3 - The fire blower on the left side is flipped in the wrong direction.
Fun 16 - The jaw trap is not working.
Fun 26 - The fire blower on the left side is in the wrong direction, while the one on the right side appears to be over the terrain.
Fun 27 (spoilered):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Simon · « **Reply #2 on:** February 17, 2015, 01:21:09 PM »

Just what the doctor ordered! Thanks for the efforts.

-- Simon

namida · « **Reply #3 on:** February 17, 2015, 01:23:22 PM »

I'll check out the other ones soon; as for Fun 27, I'm not sure whether this is what Essman intended, but it's definitely the same in the authentic version of Copycat Lemmings.

namida · « **Reply #4 on:** February 17, 2015, 01:41:20 PM »

Okay, I've found the source of the issue with objects that should be flipped horizontally. When determining whether to set the "flip horizontal" flag, it's actually checking the "flip vertical" flag and deciding based on that instead. (However, it is correctly using the "flip horizontal" flag to determine if an entrance should be left-facing.)

So, don't worry about reporting further issues relating to objects not being properly flipped horizontally; I've tracked down the source of this one.

Wafflem · « **Reply #5 on:** February 17, 2015, 01:50:58 PM »

Thanks!

Note that I'm using the cheat code and skimming through each level, so I may be missing some mistakes.

One thing I've noticed is that levels involving bombing (like Tricky 11 and 16) seem to easier now due to the fact that they are instant bombers.

Tricky 8: A lemming on the left side can slip through the gap between the two triangles.
Tricky 10: Did direct drop ever work on Cheapo? Because that's how I solved this level. (replay attached)
Tricky 14: (replay attached)

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

On another note, overall, this is a challenging pack so far compared to the Original Lemmings.

namida · « **Reply #6 on:** February 17, 2015, 01:55:53 PM »

If the apparent error relates solely to terrain, I can almost guarantee it was like that in the original too. Unlike (Neo)Lemmix, (Super)Lemmini and Lix, in Cheapo the level maps are actually just one giant image (hence why every level had to be made into a VGASPEC for the conversion). It does provide pieces you can put together to make the level, but it doesn't remember what pieces you've put where - it's essentially like copying and pasting them rather than building the level out of pieces.

Thus, the terrain will be exactly the same in this as it was in the original. Objects, and possibly level stats (though I think I've ironed out all the stats bugs) are what you especially need to look for, as well as any levels that just plain don't work (crashing the game or whatever).

And yes, Cheapo had direct drop. In fact, it worked the same way there that it virtually always has in NeoLemmix - there doesn't even need to be terrain underneath the exit, a faller can use an exit in mid-air (as many Sky levels have demonstrated).

One mechanics difference that might actually come up is with the diagonally-adjacent pixels thing. In Lemmix and NeoLemmix at least, a lemming could slip through a gap like this (with X representing where there's a pixel of terrain):

XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX

However, in Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo, they can't fall through such gaps. This might make a difference on some levels; indeed this would seem to be the case on both Tricky 8 and Tricky 14. I don't really want to make a mechanics change though, so I might see if Essman is okay with making slight alterations to these levels to account for this difference.

namida · « **Reply #7 on:** February 17, 2015, 02:39:33 PM »

I'm about to test the version which fixes the horizontal flip problem, as well as another (less severe) error that may arise from horizontal flipping. If (or rather, when) all goes well, I'll upload the improved version here.

Wafflem · « **Reply #8 on:** February 17, 2015, 02:42:29 PM »

There seems to be a one-way wall mistake in Taxing 19 underneath the vertical line of steel.

Also, I don't think that bone with the small gap on the left of Tricky 14 is a mistake; that small gap in the repeat Taxing 22 is covered.

In Mayhem 5, shouldn't the lemmings come out facing left on the left trapdoor? I'm not sure because I haven't really played the Copycat version of this level.

Tricky 27 and Mayhem 13 have fake steel, but I'm not sure if Autosteel covered those fake areas.

namida · « **Reply #9 on:** February 17, 2015, 02:59:59 PM »

Quote from: DynaLem on February 17, 2015, 02:42:29 PM

There seems to be a one-way wall mistake in Taxing 19 underneath the vertical line of steel.

I'll look into it.

Quote

Also, I don't think that bone with the small gap on the left of Tricky 14 is a mistake; that small gap in the repeat Taxing 22 is covered.

Not a mistake; as I said, I can almost guarantee there'll be no terrain mistakes. However, unless I'm recalling wrong (or Copycat functioned differently from Cheapo in this regard, which is unlikely but definitely not impossible), in genuine Copycat Lemmings, lemmings can't pass through those diagonal corner-gaps.

Quote

In Mayhem 5, shouldn't the lemmings come out facing left on the left trapdoor? I'm not sure because I haven't really played the Copycat version of this level.

I'll check what happens on the authentic version.

Quote

Tricky 27 and Mayhem 13 have fake steel, but I'm not sure if Autosteel covered those fake areas.

None of these levels use autosteel. Autosteel only works with levels using regular terrain pieces, not VGASPEC levels. As I've mentioned, every level converted here is done as a VGASPEC for technical reasons (though the converted graphic sets do include the terrain pieces, so it's perfectly possible to build a level the way you're used to using these sets; it's just not possible to convert existing Cheapo levels to a layout of terrain pieces, it can only be done as a VGASPEC). Therefore, all steel is done using the more traditional method of steel areas. And thus, if no steel area existed there in the Cheapo version, no steel area will exist there in the NeoLemmix version.

~~Anyway, I've uploaded Attempt 2 now. This should fix the horizontal flip issues, as well as the non-working traps in some levels.~~ Disregard that. I didn't properly add all the fixed versions of the levels into the EXE (though it should fix all the non-working traps, as that was a graphic set issue and all of those were added). Only the Fun levels have been fixed in regards to flipped objects; I'll get a version where *all* levels are fixed uploaded soon.

namida · « **Reply #10 on:** February 17, 2015, 03:30:21 PM »

Okay, now there's a fixed version uploaded. This should fix most, if not all, issues with flipped objects and triggered traps.

Wafflem · « **Reply #11 on:** February 17, 2015, 03:36:24 PM »

Quote from: Simon on February 17, 2015, 01:21:09 PM

Just what the doctor ordered! Thanks for the efforts.

-- Simon

Off-topic but Copycat-related, but I've always wondered, where did that guy and cat/beast hybrid thingy come from? Are these original characters created by Essman, or did they come from a show or something?

namida · « **Reply #12 on:** February 17, 2015, 03:49:18 PM »

^ No idea about that.

I checked on the two issues you mentioned (Taxing 19 and Mayhem 5).

Mayhem 5, there is nothing wrong here. The lemmings come out facing right in the authentic version too.

However, Taxing 19, there is definitely a MAJOR issue you've uncovered here - the other half(ish) of that wall, including the spot inbetween the two sections of one-way-lefts, is meant to be one-way right. But in fact, all one-way-rights appear to be missing. The cause of this is basically that, I assumed that they'd be listed in the XML file as "RightArrows" since one-way-lefts are "LeftArrows", but they're actually listed as "RightArrow" (no S on the end). Thus, the convertor didn't recognize them at all. I'll upload another update soon - might just give it a bit longer to see if any other issues surface first.

Essman · « **Reply #13 on:** February 17, 2015, 04:54:34 PM »

Quote from: namida on February 17, 2015, 01:55:53 PM

However, in Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo, they can't fall through such gaps. This might make a difference on some levels; indeed this would seem to be the case on both Tricky 8 and Tricky 14. I don't really want to make a mechanics change though, so I might see if Essman is okay with making slight alterations to these levels to account for this difference.

Make any changes necessary to the level to make them playable. I'm excited to try this out and play through the old levels and see if they are any good.

Essman · « **Reply #14 on:** February 17, 2015, 04:59:14 PM »

Quote from: DynaLem on February 17, 2015, 03:36:24 PM

Off-topic but Copycat-related, but I've always wondered, where did that guy and cat/beast hybrid thingy come from? Are these original characters created by Essman, or did they come from a show or something?

Everything was guaranteed unoriginal! Those images are from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Does_the_Sun_Shine%3F_(The_Sun_Is_a_Mass_of_Incandescent_Gas)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Oso

Essman · « **Reply #15 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:01:21 PM »

Quote from: namida on February 17, 2015, 03:49:18 PM

The cause of this is basically that, I assumed that they'd be listed in the XML file as "RightArrows" since one-way-lefts are "LeftArrows", but they're actually listed as "RightArrow" (no S on the end). Thus, the convertor didn't recognize them at all. I'll upload another update soon - might just give it a bit longer to see if any other issues surface first.

Damn, I was trying to write the tool too fast and didn't test it enough. I can change it to "RightArrows" if you want. Or maybe it's too late.

Wafflem · « **Reply #16 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:01:31 PM »

Quote from: Essman on February 17, 2015, 04:59:14 PM

Quote from: DynaLem on February 17, 2015, 03:36:24 PM
Off-topic but Copycat-related, but I've always wondered, where did that guy and cat/beast hybrid thingy come from? Are these original characters created by Essman, or did they come from a show or something?

Everything was guaranteed unoriginal! Those images are from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Why_Does_the_Sun_Shine%3F_(The_Sun_Is_a_Mass_of_Incandescent_Gas)&_%28The_Sun_Is_a_Mass_of_Incandescent_Gas%29=
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Oso

Thanks!

Also, in Cheapo, I think there was one with a lemming's head on a human body. Where did that come from?

namida · « **Reply #17 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:08:03 PM »

It's literally a one-character change in the source code of my convertor to make it look for "RightArrow" instead, so it's no huge deal. However, it might be beneficial if anyone else wants to make use of the extracted files and doesn't expect that abnormality. Just let me know either way.

As for the styles, rather than ask you to make sure whatever info I decide would be handy is present, I'm going to make LemSet automatically generate the required information when it runs (some of it might actually be easier to make NeoLemmix use directly, rather than apply at conversion-time, even). So, don't worry too much about that either. The biggest thing is the screen start Y position, since there's no real way around that.

Essman · « **Reply #18 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:09:15 PM »

Quote from: DynaLem on February 17, 2015, 05:01:31 PM

Also, in Cheapo, I think there was one with a lemming's head on a human body. Where did that come from?

I drew all the lemmings pictures, like that head. The body is from Victoria Adams of the Spice Girls. The original source of that image is lost in time.

Essman · « **Reply #19 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:14:20 PM »

Quote from: namida on February 17, 2015, 05:08:03 PM

It's literally a one-character change in the source code of my convertor to make it look for "RightArrow" instead, so it's no huge deal. However, it might be beneficial if anyone else wants to make use of the extracted files and doesn't expect that abnormality. Just let me know either way.

As for the styles, rather than ask you to make sure whatever info I decide would be handy is present, I'm going to make LemSet automatically generate the required information when it runs (some of it might actually be easier to make NeoLemmix use directly, rather than apply at conversion-time, even). So, don't worry too much about that either. The biggest thing is the screen start Y position, since there's no real way around that.

OK, the latest update of the level extractor has the fixed Y position and uses RightArrows:
https://github.com/spadapet/cheaplevel/blob/master/Publish/CheapLevel.zip?raw=true

If you don't really need the style object types in the level XML file, then I won't add it yet. It's just not trivial because the style file might be around when doing the extraction.

namida · « **Reply #20 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:20:57 PM »

I need to get the information on the style from somewhere, but it makes more sense for me to do that myself when converting the style. This way, I don't need to ask for an update whenever I realise "oh hey, there's this other piece of information I need too" - for example, I realised that when dealing with horizontally flipped objects, the original width of them may be important (since due to format limitations, some need to be padded a bit with blank space - all terrain pieces and objects need to have a width divisible by 8 in NeoLemmix, since this was a limitation that existed in the DOS formats (virtually all of NeoLemmix's file formats are just modified / extended versions of the DOS Lemmings formats; the only major exception is the level format which is completely custom - and with that being said, for a long time it used a level format too that was just an extended version of the DOS one, but eventually it got to the point where this was no longer practical)). Chances are more things will come up, so if I just handle it on my end in the tools I'm making/using, it's less work for you and less waiting time for me.

One other thing - did you ever have a proper logo for Copycat Lemmings? Just thinking that if you do, I could put that into the title screen, instead of the crudely-drawn one that's there at the moment.

Obviously it's not a huge deal if you don't.

namida · « **Reply #21 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:38:01 PM »

I've put "Attempt 3" up now. This one fixes the one-way right issue in Taxing 19 (and any other levels that have one-way-rights). Some horizontally-flipped objects may still be very slightly out-of-line; but I would think that at this point, any level that isn't impossible (or overly-easy) due to mechanics differences (most notably the diagonal-gap difference) should be in a completely playable, if maybe not quite perfect, state by now.

Wafflem · « **Reply #22 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:41:46 PM »

Quote from: namida on February 17, 2015, 12:56:45 PM

Also - if you prefer it over the Amiga musics (I'll get around to including the genuine Copycat / Cheapo ones eventually!), the music pack from either Orig or LPI will both work perfectly fine with this.

Hm, they don't seem to work and still play the Amiga musics.

I downloaded those from the NeoLemmix website.

Essman · « **Reply #23 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:42:30 PM »

Quote from: namida on February 17, 2015, 01:23:22 PM

I'll check out the other ones soon; as for Fun 27, I'm not sure whether this is what Essman intended, but it's definitely the same in the authentic version of Copycat Lemmings.

I intended that to give a little bit of help to perceptive people.

Essman · « **Reply #24 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:48:20 PM »

Quote from: namida on February 17, 2015, 05:20:57 PM

One other thing - did you ever have a proper logo for Copycat Lemmings? Just thinking that if you do, I could put that into the title screen, instead of the crudely-drawn one that's there at the moment. Obviously it's not a huge deal if you don't.

There's no logo. I was more interested in learning how to program

namida · « **Reply #25 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:49:18 PM »

Quote from: DynaLem on February 17, 2015, 05:41:46 PM

Quote from: namida on February 17, 2015, 12:56:45 PM
Also - if you prefer it over the Amiga musics (I'll get around to including the genuine Copycat / Cheapo ones eventually!), the music pack from either Orig or LPI will both work perfectly fine with this.

Hm, they don't seem to work and still play the Amiga musics.

I downloaded those from the NeoLemmix website.

You did rename them to CopycatLemmingsNeo_Music.dat, right?

Wafflem · « **Reply #26 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:51:04 PM »

Renamed them, and works now, thanks!

namida · « **Reply #27 on:** February 17, 2015, 05:57:54 PM »

Remember when trying to use a music pack with (Neo)Lemmix: the filename (excluding the extension) should always be the same as the EXE, with "_Music.dat" on the end.

(With that being said, not all players support them - for example, LPIII doesn't.)

ccexplore · « **Reply #28 on:** February 17, 2015, 07:48:30 PM »

Quote from: namida on February 17, 2015, 01:55:53 PM

One mechanics difference that might actually come up is with the diagonally-adjacent pixels thing. In Lemmix and NeoLemmix at least, a lemming could slip through a gap like this (with X representing where there's a pixel of terrain):

XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX XXXXXX

However, in Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo, they can't fall through such gaps. This might make a difference on some levels; indeed this would seem to be the case on both Tricky 8 and Tricky 14. I don't really want to make a mechanics change though, so I might see if Essman is okay with making slight alterations to these levels to account for this difference.

Hmm, doesn't seem like it'd be that hard to make a mechanics change option for this, I may be able to help. That said, there are enough other subtle differences here and there that I'm sure it's inevitable to run into other cases where it'd be simpler to just alter the affected level anyway.

namida · « **Reply #29 on:** February 17, 2015, 08:27:44 PM »

I doubt it'd be hard to modify the mechanics to make an option for that (though if I was going to do that, it'd almost certainly go hand-in-hand with the 80px fall distance which I guess would then get renamed "Cheapo mode" or something). But, I'd rather avoid having too much different mechanics sets on the engine - currently, outside of gimmicks (which are more a one-level thing, I'm sure you've at least seen how they work once or twice by now), there's only two mechanics-changing options - normal fall distance vs 80px fall distance (which was only implemented for Cheapo purposes) which is set on a per-level basis, and timed bombers vs untimed bombers which can only be set for packs as a whole.

namida · « **Reply #30 on:** February 19, 2015, 03:52:44 AM »

Uploaded a new update. This one changes the behaviour with those diagonal corner gaps on levels where the 80px fall distance is set (which I'm now calling "Cheapo Mode", since I'm using it in general for Cheapo-conversion mechanics tweaks).

Let me know if you find any more issues.

Wafflem · « **Reply #31 on:** February 19, 2015, 04:31:58 AM »

The trap in the bottom left of Fun 25 is still not working.

namida · « **Reply #32 on:** February 19, 2015, 04:34:45 AM »

Weird. This one did work fine at one point. Previously, I was moving trigger areas downwards by one pixel, but I reverted this behaviour when it caused a lot of traps to not work (due to their trigger being too low). However, this one now seems to be too *high*. Assuming all traps worked in the original version and no errors anywhere along the conversion process whether in Essman's tool or my own (I'll check on all of these), this would suggest Cheapo may have been checking more than one pixel for trigger areas...

Essman · « **Reply #33 on:** February 19, 2015, 05:32:06 AM »

Quote from: namida on February 19, 2015, 04:34:45 AM

Assuming all traps worked in the original version and no errors anywhere along the conversion process whether in Essman's tool or my own (I'll check on all of these), this would suggest Cheapo may have been checking more than one pixel for trigger areas...

I looked at the sprites and the object info that came from the style extractor, and it all seems correct. The hit box area for that smasher trap is four pixels wide and two pixels tall, covering the middle of the trigger pad (one pixel above it too).

namida · « **Reply #34 on:** February 19, 2015, 06:06:18 AM »

So then, in NeoLemmix the trigger area should be the pad and one pixel below it (as NeoLemmix, like DOS lemmings, uses the pixel below the lemming's foot to check). I'll check on this to see if there's some error somewhere in the conversion on my side.

namida · « **Reply #35 on:** February 19, 2015, 08:32:44 AM »

Alright - I checked; fixing the issue with this makes the Fun 12 (or somewhere around there xD) trap not work again. So, I'd say that either Cheapo was checking more than one pixel, or possibly was checking for trigger areas mid-step when lemmings step up a diagonal. (I did test both traps in genuine Copycat Lemmings to see if they worked properly there, and they do.) I did wonder if it might be an issue with calculating the hitbox in the conversion tool; but both traps' hitboxes are the same size so this is very unlikely. One possible simple workaround that shouldn't be an issue for many levels (if any at all) is to, instead of moving the hitbox down one pixel, just increase its height by 1.

One other thing I noticed was that the Fun 12 trap is meant to have "No Overwrite" set, but doesn't. I'll have to look into this too.

Nepster · « **Reply #36 on:** February 19, 2015, 11:27:09 PM »

Just played through Fun. There were two things that bugged me:
- Lemmings step up only 5 pixels instead of the usual 6. Thus Fun 2 and Fun 23 seem to be impossible now.
- Lemmings get trapped by roots on earth levels. This happens for example on Fun 10 (if one builds up to the rightmost root) and again on Fun 23. This is no problem in Fun, just slightly annoying to me.

namida · « **Reply #37 on:** February 20, 2015, 03:13:50 AM »

Huh. It worked before the diagonal-gap tweak. I'll have to double-check on this. (I would guess both are caused by the same thing.)

namida · « **Reply #38 on:** February 21, 2015, 07:03:49 AM »

Uploaded a new attempt. This fixes the jumper distance as well as that *all* traps should be working now.

I've also thought of (though not yet implemented) a way to bring down the filesize a bit without needing to modify or add any formats.

It may slow down the conversion process though.

Wafflem · « **Reply #39 on:** February 21, 2015, 12:08:35 PM »

The lemmings still get trapped in the big roots in the dirt levels as Nepster described (e.g. Fun 23).

namida · « **Reply #40 on:** February 21, 2015, 12:21:02 PM »

This happens on the genuine version too; it's not unique to the NeoLemmix port. When he mentioned that before, I assumed he was talking about not being able to step up them when he should be able to; thus why I got confused and thought it was the same issue.

On a side note, I've looked at the other two issues listed under known issues:
- The objects not getting "no overwrite" properly: This is actually a difference between the true Copycat Lemmings levels and the Cheapo versions of them these were based on. And in fact; this trap not working (the one in Fun 12) is also an issue that's also present in the Cheapo versions of these levels, but not the genuine Copycat Lemmings. Thus, I guess there's nothing wrong with the code setup that was making this trap not work; instead this level is what's faulty - my initial method of "just move the trigger area down by one pixel" is perfectly fine!
- The horizontal flip issue, I still haven't come under any cases where this affects any Copycat Lemmings levels; regardless, I've added code to work around this issue as I can almost guarantee there will be Cheapo levels where this does come up involving custom styles (or possibly even the ONML ones).

EDIT: The first point, on even closer investigation, it appears the issue with Fun 12's trap might actually be with a difference in this object's trigger area between Copycat and Cheapo.

namida · « **Reply #41 on:** February 21, 2015, 02:33:58 PM »

Uploaded attempt 6. This reverts the conversion of trap trigger areas to the way it was handled in the older versions (ie: same trigger area but moved down one pixel, to account for the difference in where Cheapo checks for trigger areas vs where NeoLemmix checks for them), with a manual tweak to the bear trap in the dirt style as this seems to have a difference between Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo. There's also a tweak to Fun 12 to set the bear trap there to No Overwrite just as it was in Copycat Lemmings; this is again a Copycat/Cheapo difference.

Finally, flipped objects should no longer be moved slightly off-position.

I haven't yet made that attempt to optimize the file sizes. That's the next goal, if no more issues arise (and I think it's safe to say they should mostly be ironed out by now).

I myself finally played this to some detail - not the entire game or even close; I so far played the first half of Fun, and the first handful of levels of Tricky and Mayhem (as well as a few other random ones). Definitely some great levels in here!

Essman · « **Reply #42 on:** February 21, 2015, 02:49:19 PM »

Quote from: namida on February 21, 2015, 02:33:58 PM

Uploaded attempt 6. This reverts the conversion of trap trigger areas to the way it was handled in the older versions (ie: same trigger area but moved down one pixel, to account for the difference in where Cheapo checks for trigger areas vs where NeoLemmix checks for them), with a manual tweak to the bear trap in the dirt style as this seems to have a difference between Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo. There's also a tweak to Fun 12 to set the bear trap there to No Overwrite just as it was in Copycat Lemmings; this is again a Copycat/Cheapo difference.

I apologize for the bugs and differences in those games. Sorry that you have to deal with them now, but I really appreciate this work. Playing these levels again is really fun!

namida · « **Reply #43 on:** February 21, 2015, 02:52:24 PM »

It's no worries! There's always subtle differences between engines - even the DOS versions of Orig and OhNo have some mechanics differences between each other, and DOS CustLemm has some differences again. Even within NeoLemmix, which attempts to be as consistent as possible (outside of "Cheapo Mode"), LPIII and LPIII Bonus Pack have one slight difference from all other players (specifically relating to the spawn point of lemmings dropping from entrances), while custom-built players have the option to choose between the instant and timed bombers (though use of timed ones is discouraged; but the option is there). In general, most levels are playable across any engine that supports all the features they use, unless they rely on unusual quirks or glitches.

Also, I remember back many years ago when I first discovered Cheapo and was bugging you on an almost-daily basis for "how do I do this" or "can you do this for me" and you helped out probably far more than you should've (maybe you remember the horribly-drawn "Lightning" graphic set I asked you to put together an STT file for?) - so I guess in a way, this is returning the favor!

That being said, if there's any other differences you know of off-hand that may affect the levels significantly, let me know so I can account for them sooner rather than later.

Essman · « **Reply #44 on:** February 21, 2015, 03:09:45 PM »

Quote from: namida on February 21, 2015, 02:52:24 PM

That being said, if there's any other differences you know of off-hand that may affect the levels significantly, let me know so I can account for them sooner rather than later.

I don't remember anything detailed about the physics in those games

But I do have the source code for the games. Even though it's really poorly written uncommented beginner C++, I can do research to answer detailed questions about the physics. Or I can give you the code as necessary. But just playing the old games in an emulator or something is the best way to see how they worked.

namida · « **Reply #45 on:** February 22, 2015, 07:44:02 AM »

That should be fine (although some people might find use for it if you were to release it). I plan to play through this pack properly soon, to see if I can notice any issues - but I think most things have been ironed out by now!

And if that's the case, it's probably about time to fix the other issues that need to be done for the NeoLemmix update (which don't relate to Cheapo in any way), and put the update and tools out so that people can start converting any Cheapo content they see fit.

I'm not looking forward to getting the editor up to scratch for this, though... it'll need a major overhaul in some regards, but on the other hand, these things were long overdue even without taking Cheapo into account anyway.

Wafflem · « **Reply #46 on:** February 22, 2015, 02:04:19 PM »

Quote from: namida on February 22, 2015, 07:44:02 AM

I'm not looking forward to getting the editor up to scratch for this, though... it'll need a major overhaul in some regards, but on the other hand, these things were long overdue even without taking Cheapo into account anyway.

What parts of the editor are you overhauling?

namida · « **Reply #47 on:** February 22, 2015, 03:28:44 PM »

It's mostly behind-the-scenes stuff. However, it's very possible I may also finally get rid of the "Compile Styles" option (and just load styles directly). It won't be anything that'll make the editor harder to use.

namida · « **Reply #48 on:** February 23, 2015, 06:33:38 AM »

Okay, well it seems that there's no remaining major issues, so time to tackle some optimization issues. I'm attempting to write code that tries to recognize any terrain pieces in the level image that match ones from the graphic set, and thus blank out those parts of the image and use regular terrain pieces instead. This should considerably reduce the filesize.

For first attempt, it's only going to look for pieces in their normal orientation, but once I get it working, I'll attempt to identify flipped pieces as well. In many cases, particularly with rough-edged sets, this won't completely remove the need for a VGASPEC, but should cut down on how much of the level uses one, the result being most of the VGASPEC will be blank space, and therefore, a much smaller filesize. Of course, the tradeoff is that the conversion will be a lot slower.

EDIT: It's working well. Very slow performing, but functionally perfect. Without yet implementing any handling for flipped pieces, it already cuts the filesize nearly in half for Fun 5 (a straight-edged level); it isn't so effective on Fun 1 (a rough-edged level).

EDIT: I've made some minor optimizations that should speed it up, as well as working on adding support for flipped pieces (any combination of horizontal and vertical flipped states). I've also applied a (rather kludgy) fix that should prevent it repeatedly duplicating pieces with repetitive designs (such as the striped pillars in the Marble (aka "Pink") style), but rather cover them in as few pieces as possible. I'm no expert on image processing so there's only so much I can do, though ultimately, it should be good enough to work, even if it's not as optimal as potentially possible. In terms of speed, I can think of ways to further optimize it, but I'm going to worry about getting the current attempts to work first, then I can look at improving the speed.

Okay, after some further testing, adding support for flipped pieces definitely helps further. On the other hand, I also experimented with running more than one pass - the improvement it offers is negligable, especially compared to the extra time it takes (whereas a single pass isn't overly time consuming). Additionally, multiple passes seems to give minor oddities that don't appear with a single pass. So, I'm limiting the tool to single-pass only (for now anyway).

namida · « **Reply #49 on:** February 23, 2015, 09:46:31 AM »

Seems to be working well, so I'm running the first full-scale test run. From the first 10 levels of Fun alone, it's cut about 100KB off the total filesize.

Comparisons:

Level 1: 51KB > 49KB (3.9% reduction) [Dirt]
Level 2: 31KB > 17KB (45.2% reduction) [Pillar]
Level 3: 23KB > 8KB (65.2% reduction) [Fire]
Level 4: 108KB > 96KB (11.1% reduction) [Crystal]
Level 5: 71KB > 50KB (29.6% reduction) [Marble]
Level 6: 74KB > 69KB (6.8% reduction) [Dirt]
Level 7: 25KB > 18KB (28.0% reduction) [Pillar]
Level 8: 102KB > 90KB (11.8% reduction) [Crystal]
Level 9: 75KB > 55KB (26.7% reduction) [Marble]
Level 10: 129KB > 126KB (2.3% reduction) [Dirt]

Overall: 684KB > 573KB (16.2% reduction)

As you can see, the straight-edged tilesets benefit far more than the rough-edged ones, but all of them benefit at least a bit.

EDIT: For all of Fun; 1.66MB > 1.41MB (15.1% reduction)
This is including the LEVEL000.DAT file, which has increased in size by only 7KB.

Tricky: 1.46MB > 1.10MB (24.7% reduction)
Taxing: 1.31MB > 0.98MB (25.2% reduction)
Mayhem: 1.60MB > 1.07MB (35.6% reduction)

And in total, for the EXE:
8474KB > 7089KB (16.3% reduction)

While still very large, this is definitely an improvement!

I'll test it out a bit myself before I upload anything.

EDIT: Goes without saying that there'd be some issues... xD Time to look into it...

EDIT: Looks like the issue is a very minor one, and solely in the LVL files, not the VGASPECs. It can be fixed with a simple adjustment to them, without the need to reprocess all the levels. I'm also doing some multi-pass test runs to see if this is what was causing the problem with multi-pass terrain building. (It's very plausible that it was, and running extra passes could potentially offer a huge improvement on some levels.)

EDIT: This was indeed the problem, or at least, a two-pass conversion comes out fine on the one level I tested it on (where I was noticing issues before). Time to try 4-pass conversions and a different level.

EDIT: All worked perfectly! There's some oddities in which exact pieces it uses for what purposes (which of course is invisible to the end player), but the resulting level is pixel-perfect to the directly-made-to-VGASPEC one at a much smaller filesize.

And since multi-pass is working now, I'm running the conversions again with four passes rather than one; we'll see how much of a difference this makes. (The two levels I was using as primary test runs were Fun 1 and Fun 5; on the former 4-pass makes a noticable difference from 1-pass, while on the latter it's negligable - but 1-pass already does a lot on the latter.)

Nepster · « **Reply #50 on:** February 23, 2015, 02:15:22 PM »

Could someone please check whether Mayhem 25 "Opposable Lemming" is solvable in the NeoLemmix version.
Everything else works perfectly fine now (using V6).

namida · « **Reply #51 on:** February 23, 2015, 02:45:55 PM »

Quote from: Nepster on February 23, 2015, 02:15:22 PM

Could someone please check whether Mayhem 25 "Opposable Lemming" is solvable in the NeoLemmix version.
Everything else works perfectly fine now (using V6).

Confirmed possible.

namida · « **Reply #52 on:** February 23, 2015, 04:44:31 PM »

So, trying with 4-pass, it doesn't seem to give much of an improvement in filesize on most levels, especially considering how much longer it takes to run (nearly 5 hours since I launched it; one rank is finished and two others are very close, while Mayhem has a fair way to go).

Relative to 1-pass:

Fun: 1.41MB > 1.37MB (2.8% reduction)
Tricky: 1.10MB > 1.07MB (2.7% reduction)
Taxing: 0.98MB > 0.94MB (4.1% reduction)
Mayhem: 1.07MB > 1.00MB (6.5% reduction)

Overall reduction on the EXE was only about 150KB.

However - it's also very possible this is due to subtle differences between the Copycat and Cheapo graphic sets (something as simple as a terrain piece having one pixel that's off just by a slight amount in just one of the RGB values could make the program not detect the piece in the level image); indeed I've noticed some pieces not being detected when I can see very little reason why they wouldn't be, or some levels having leftover pieces in the 3rd or 4th runs where from a quick look at the level map I'd've expected it to pick up everything on the first pass. I'll do some test runs with true Cheapo levels at some point and see how the results look there.

Essman · « **Reply #53 on:** February 24, 2015, 03:23:58 AM »

On Fun 1, the lemmings get stuck in the bottom left corner because they won't fall off the screen walking left. I think I had them walk off the screen and die in the clones. Not 100% sure though.

Anyway, I wonder if I can still beat my own levels. It would be funny to record myself playing the levels (just need the time).

namida · « **Reply #54 on:** February 24, 2015, 04:45:49 AM »

Meh, fell asleep waiting for Mayhem to finish. It's done now, and I'm about to build and test a player with the results. It's not looking like it's going to cut a very large amount off the filesize though; 1-pass seems to be the limit of what's beneficial here.

Essman: If I remember correctly that is indeed how Cheapo performed; DOS also does that on the right (but not on the left, which just acts as a wall). Virtually every clone acts differently with regards to the sides of the levels (eg: SuperLemmini treats them as walls with somewhat unique properties; whereas NeoLemmix just treats them as steel walls); however, unless there's a level where this actually makes a difference, I'm not going to change it (to keep things simple, and keep NeoLemmix fairly consistent).

namida · « **Reply #55 on:** February 24, 2015, 03:18:15 PM »

NeoLemmix V1.29n has now been released, and with it, a proper (non "attempt beta") release of Copycat Lemmings NeoLemmix version. I've updated the links in the first post to reflect this; there's also now a neolemmix.com link as well as a DropBox one.

There's no difference between this and the previous attempt version, except a smaller filesize by about 1.5MB, and that it now says "Levels V1n Player V1.29n" instead of "Attempt 6" for the version number on the title screen's scroller. So, unless you're wanting to look for any issues in it (which I haven't noticed any), there's probably no major need to update.

EDIT: Actually, I can think of two reasons - the update now allows you to view your lemmings saved / time / score records for each level, and if you're using Forced Gimmick options, the bug where that would turn off "Cheapo Mode" is now fixed.

GigaLem · « **Reply #56 on:** February 24, 2015, 11:54:50 PM »

I wonder if there could be a Oh no more copycat lemmings

namida · « **Reply #57 on:** February 25, 2015, 02:10:25 AM »

I doubt Essman intends to make any more levels anytime soon (not that I'd complain; he definitely has some neat levels so far!), considering that Copycat Lemmings is over 15 years old now. So, unless someone else makes it... but then, "Copycat Lemmings" is kinda his pack name, just like "Lemmings Plus" is mine or "cLemmings" is exit's.

Essman · « **Reply #58 on:** February 25, 2015, 04:08:10 AM »

Quote from: Giga on February 24, 2015, 11:54:50 PM

I wonder if there could be a Oh no more copycat lemmings

Well... maybe. I sure hope so. After all these years I haven't lost interest in lemmings (although I don't play much anymore, mostly read and watch videos) and I haven't lost interest in writing a new better clone game. It would take a while, but maybe..

namida · « **Reply #59 on:** February 25, 2015, 04:49:11 AM »

We had a recent discussion about the possibility of new clones, and the general consensus was summed up nicely by an XKCD comic about standards... still, if you can see a space that no existing clone fills (nor is willing to fill) it may be worthwile.

(it also has to be considered that this topic involved someone saying "hey, I have these wonderful ideas, you should all make them", not "I'm going to make this...", so there is that difference)

But whether it's on a new engine, or a currently-existing one, I'd definitely love to see more levels from you!

Essman · « **Reply #60 on:** February 25, 2015, 06:21:40 AM »

Quote from: namida on February 25, 2015, 04:49:11 AM

We had a recent discussion about the possibility of new clones, and the general consensus was summed up nicely by an XKCD comic about standards... still, if you can see a space that no existing clone fills (nor is willing to fill) it may be worthwile. (it also has to be considered that this topic involved someone saying "hey, I have these wonderful ideas, you should all make them", not "I'm going to make this...", so there is that difference)

But whether it's on a new engine, or a currently-existing one, I'd definitely love to see more levels from you!

My goal wouldn't be to make one game to rule them all, or to even be compatible with any existing games. My career is software programming and I often work on personal projects, so I would work on something for myself and release it when it's ready. My previous project was a space invaders "clone" available on my site:
http://www.ferretfacegames.com/

Now I'm thinking of a Lemmings-like game... I'll post a link to that site in the future if something is available.

GigaLem · « **Reply #61 on:** February 25, 2015, 07:28:35 PM »

Quote from: Essman on February 25, 2015, 04:08:10 AM

Quote from: Giga on February 24, 2015, 11:54:50 PM
I wonder if there could be a Oh no more copycat lemmings

Well... maybe. I sure hope so. After all these years I haven't lost interest in lemmings (although I don't play much anymore, mostly read and watch videos) and I haven't lost interest in writing a new better clone game. It would take a while, but maybe..

Copycat versions of ONML tilesets maybe?

namida · « **Reply #62 on:** February 25, 2015, 07:31:56 PM »

Cheapo includes the ONML tilesets, but unlike the Orig ones, they're not remade, they're just copied straight from ONML. They do contain some pieces ONML doesn't though, such as 90-degree rotated versions of the straight bars in the snow tileset, and steel in the bubble tileset (well, NeoLemmix / newer versions of Lemmix include steel in the Bubble set nowadays, but vanilla ONML sure didn't).

New tilesets at the moment seem to be fairly rare... there's the odd one showing up now and then for Lix, and there's a decent chance that whenever I announce a new project, it also means a new NeoLemmix tileset or two. Traditional Lemmix, Lemmini and SuperLemmini aren't getting much at all. That being said, expect to see a LOT of the old Cheapo tilesets (and there were a LOT of these) showing up on NeoLemmix too in the near future.

Essman · « **Reply #63 on:** February 27, 2015, 12:12:14 AM »

Quote from: namida on February 25, 2015, 07:31:56 PM

Cheapo includes the ONML tilesets, but unlike the Orig ones, they're not remade, they're just copied straight from ONML.

I drew my own version of the original styles because I didn't know how to take screenshots of a DOS game and use the graphics in my own code. I even drew all the lemming animations myself, pixel by pixel.

Akseli · « **Reply #64 on:** March 08, 2015, 12:15:33 PM »

Started this pack last Friday, my solutions are attached to this post. Notes:

- I downloaded this game from DynaLem's post here.
- I didn't know what to expect, but yet again I played a big levelset that surprised me positively. Many nice puzzle levels, no trivial builder-heavy levels at all.
- Though at least in the last rating I pondered in almost every level if I backrouted it in some way because of saving lots of spare skills and lemmings. Otherwise difficulty curve was pretty nice through the game.
- All level titles have capitalization only in the first letter, I'd guess this is not intentional.
- The hardest level was Mayhem 25: "Opposable lemming", where I gave up too early thinking my solution lacks two builders. Like Nepster, I looked at namida's solution. Congrats namida, you beated both me and Nepster.

When was this pack released for cheapo in the first place?
Thanks for this playing experience, guys!

namida · « **Reply #65 on:** March 08, 2015, 12:20:04 PM »

About the level titles, I can say for sure there's no issues with converting them (apart from that any titles longer than 32 characters would get cut off, but there again, I think Cheapo had a shorter length limit for titles anyway). So, if they're that way in this version, they would've been like that in the original too. Now that I think about it, IIRC Cheapo displays all level titles in all-uppercase anyway, even though they're not like that in the level files, so it probably wouldn't've been noticable until now.

Mayhem 25, I can only assume that some mechanics difference between Cheapo and NeoLemmix (most likely relating to builders) makes this level much harder in NeoLemmix than it originally was. I'd try it out on genuine Copycat Lemmings if my computer didn't run it really slow... actually, I have a new PC now, I should see how it runs on that (though from what I hear, in general Cheapo / Copycat don't run well on newer PCs).

Essman · « **Reply #66 on:** March 08, 2015, 05:57:11 PM »

Quote from: Akseli on March 08, 2015, 12:15:33 PM

When was this pack released for cheapo in the first place?
Thanks for this playing experience, guys!

I created these levels in 1998 for a DOS Lemmings clone game that I made, before I wrote Cheapo. Thanks to namida for converting these levels and getting them playable again.

Quote from: Akseli on March 08, 2015, 12:15:33 PM

- Though at least in the last rating I pondered in almost every level if I backrouted it in some way because of saving lots of spare skills and lemmings. Otherwise difficulty curve was pretty nice through the game.

Backroutes are not surprising. By now people have figured out lots of tricks to backroute levels in ways that I couldn't imagine back then. As long as it's fun though.

Thanks for the comments!

Essman · « **Reply #67 on:** March 08, 2015, 11:43:16 PM »

Quote from: namida on March 08, 2015, 12:20:04 PM

Mayhem 25, I can only assume that some mechanics difference between Cheapo and NeoLemmix (most likely relating to builders) makes this level much harder in NeoLemmix than it originally was. I'd try it out on genuine Copycat Lemmings if my computer didn't run it really slow...

There is a difference in builder head-hitting physics. Here is an attached picture of the intended solution for Mayhem 25.
The builder was supposed to hit his head after building two steps, not one.

kaywhyn · « **Reply #68 on:** November 14, 2020, 08:46:25 PM »

I played this pack several months ago, but I unfortunately didn't have any replays, so I went back and rectified that last night and finished off the rest of the pack earlier today. So, here is my complete set of replays for Copycat Lemmings. This is for NL v1.43, and AFAIK this pack cannot be converted to New Formats for technical reasons, mostly owing to how this started off as a Cheapo pack. So, these replays probably won't be of interest to anyone but Essman, but once again I'm simply attaching my replay set just for the sake of completeness and sticking to how I plan to eventually post my replays for all level packs I play here on the forums, in addition to possibly any LPs or video solutions I upload to my Youtube. Also, I believe the fall distance before splatting is much larger than it usually is in NL? Probably that's the way it is in Cheapo, but I don't know for sure since I have never played or tried Cheapo.

Regarding my experience, besides bsmith's level pack, this is the very first time in months that I have played very old formats NL. The absence of skill shadows took me by complete surprise and so made some of the levels a bit annoying, but at the same time it's at least identical to playing the game on the other platforms/engines, since they don't have it either, so I didn't mind. Fortunately, if one wants this experience of playing without skill shadows, the v12.10 NL now has an option to disable them. Not sure if I'll disable them, though, since I'm very used to them now. The most annoying is how there's no hotkey setting to go to the last skill assignment, and so I had to make do with the 1 and 5 second rewind hotkeys.

Regarding the pack, this is a very well-done pack. Despite the clunkiness of the v1.43 NL player, I enjoyed and liked almost every level in the pack. It's very similar to Geofflems but is much easier IMO. In particular, I absolutely loved the wide variety of levels in the pack, and the solutions of the Fun levels here are interesting and not dull like many of the Fun levels of the original Lemmings. Fun 27 - I know it's around here somewhere comes to mind. As the title suggests, it's a find the hidden exit type of level, but it's very easy and there are indications on where to look. This is a level where the title gets cut off, and I think there are several others, but this is just a drawback of the v1.43 NL player. No real challenge until you get late into the Taxing and Mayhem ranks.

This time around, the pack was a much faster solve for me than I remembered despite not having any replays due to not having the setting to automatically save successful replays at the time I first played the pack months ago. Even for my second playthrough of the pack, I still agree that the hardest level of the pack is Mayhem 25 - Opposable Lemming, although this time I had a much easier time with it, probably because I pretty much still remember the solution from when I first played the level. It's still a difficult level due to the builder checks in this NL version, though.

I don't get the point of Taxing 5 - More armatage shanks, the repeat of Tricky 16 - Armatage shanks, since the solutions are exactly the same.

namida · « **Reply #69 on:** November 14, 2020, 08:51:32 PM »

Quote

Also, I believe the fall distance before splatting is much larger than it usually is in NL? Probably that's the way it is in Cheapo, but I don't know for sure since I have never played or tried Cheapo.

Indeed. Copycat / Cheapo had a fall distance of 80px rather than DOS's 64px, which is what NL's is based on (minus some inconstencies where in practice, the fall distance would depend on what the lemming was doing before it started falling).

That aside, there is also another minor difference: Lemmings will step up, rather than fall through, a "checkerboard" arrangement of solid and nonsolid pixels. This is also how Copycat / Cheapo behaved, and some levels rely on this.

Proxima · « **Reply #70 on:** November 14, 2020, 08:54:41 PM »

Quote from: kaywhyn on November 14, 2020, 08:46:25 PM

This is for NL v1.43, and AFAIK this pack cannot be converted to New Formats for technical reasons, mostly owing to how this started off as a Cheapo pack.

It can; it would just be a lot of work, and no-one has stepped up to do the work yet. As you noted, the fall distance is higher in Cheapo (as well as other game-mechanics differences), and older versions of NL had a "Cheapo mode" to support Cheapo physics in levels directly converted from Cheapo. Dropping the support for those physics means that every level would have to be edited by hand so it still works in NL physics (and, if possible, so that backroutes that were intentionally prevented are still impossible).

I would be quite happy to do the work myself if no-one else steps up, but it would come behind a lot of other priorities (Redux, NL conversions of the original games, my own packs, and conversions I am working on of other old content).

kaywhyn · « **Reply #71 on:** November 14, 2020, 09:09:17 PM »

Thanks for the info, namida and Proxima!

Very insightful and helpful.

Quote from: namida on November 14, 2020, 08:51:32 PM

That aside, there is also another minor difference: Lemmings will step up, rather than fall through, a "checkerboard" arrangement of solid and nonsolid pixels. This is also how Copycat / Cheapo behaved, and some levels rely on this.

I've seen this discussed elsewhere on the forums. I think I know what is meant by "checkerboard" arrangement, but can you expand on this in regards to Lemmings mechanics? Just so I know that what I'm thinking it is is exactly what is meant by it. Yes, I know what a checkerboard looks like.

Quote from: Proxima on November 14, 2020, 08:54:41 PM

Quote from: kaywhyn on November 14, 2020, 08:46:25 PM
This is for NL v1.43, and AFAIK this pack cannot be converted to New Formats for technical reasons, mostly owing to how this started off as a Cheapo pack.

It can; it would just be a lot of work, and no-one has stepped up to do the work yet. As you noted, the fall distance is higher in Cheapo (as well as other game-mechanics differences), and older versions of NL had a "Cheapo mode" to support Cheapo physics in levels directly converted from Cheapo. Dropping the support for those physics means that every level would have to be edited by hand so it still works in NL physics (and, if possible, so that backroutes that were intentionally prevented are still impossible).

Yea, I had a feeling it technically is possible. I just didn't think about how it might differ from converting those packs that originally started off as a pack on this NL version but without, say, Cheapo mechanics or anything else that wouldn't be compatible with New Formats. If I'm not mistaken, those are much easier to convert. Now that you mentioned it, that makes sense that converting Copycat Lemmings would be a very laborious task, since the pack relied on Cheapo mechanics and so editing manually by hand when converting is the way to go.

Quote

I would be quite happy to do the work myself if no-one else steps up, but it would come behind a lot of other priorities (Redux, NL conversions of the original games, my own packs, and conversions I am working on of other old content).

I understand. i'm not going to do it, though, particularly since I still have not worked extensively with a level editor and have yet to get into level designing myself, which is probably very advisable before I get into stuff like converting. Regardless, I have no interest in converting any pack over. Instead, I rather play levels than design

namida · « **Reply #72 on:** November 14, 2020, 09:30:19 PM »

Quote

Dropping the support for those physics means that every level would have to be edited by hand so it still works in NL physics (and, if possible, so that backroutes that were intentionally prevented are still impossible).

Not only this, but Cheapo does not store the terrain as a list of pieces, but rather, as a bitmap. So as far as terrain goes, every level is essentially a single large terrain piece. This still doesn't make it impossible - you could use that as a starting point and work with erasers, or just remake the level altogether - but it's yet another problem to overcome.

ericderkovits · « **Reply #73 on:** November 14, 2020, 09:48:49 PM »

yes, I wanted to convert it, as I love converting but I found converting copycat lemmings too difficult to do. I think it is as Namida says the tiles are not stored as pieces so I wouldn't even know what to do. And I'm not going to spend the time redrawing the levels from scratch.

kaywhyn · « **Reply #74 on:** November 15, 2020, 03:33:57 AM »

Regardless of who does the conversion, whether it's Proxima because no one else wants to or someone else steps up to, for the time being you can simply set up v1.43 and play the pack, if you can get past minding the clunky controls of the NL player. There's definitely no hurry to bring this pack to the New Formats ASAP. It sounds like it'll definitely be done at some point in the future thanks to Proxima (depending on if no else decides to do it), whether it ends up being a really long time from now or not. Doesn't matter to me at all. I'm simply thankful that the older NL players still exist for packs like these so that they can still be played. This is a well-done and very high quality pack with so many great and awesome levels, so that was definitely what kept me going to solve all the pack. Not to mention it's my 2nd playthrough of the pack, and I definitely enjoyed the pack way more this time around. I said the same thing with Lemmicks, where the high quality levels kept me engaged with the pack, and the positives of the pack more than outweigh the clunky v1.43 controls.

Essman · « **Reply #75 on:** November 15, 2020, 11:33:59 PM »

Quote from: kaywhyn on November 14, 2020, 08:46:25 PM

I don't get the point of Taxing 5 - More armatage shanks, the repeat of Tricky 16 - Armatage shanks, since the solutions are exactly the same.

Thanks for the review and level replays kaywhyn! I figured out what to download and how to watch your replays.
The two Armatage Shanks levels were more difficult when the bombers had to count down from 5. The second copy probably required perfect timing, but now with instant explosions it's much easier.

kaywhyn · « **Reply #76 on:** November 16, 2020, 02:14:50 AM »

Quote from: Essman on November 15, 2020, 11:33:59 PM

Thanks for the review and level replays kaywhyn! I figured out what to download and how to watch your replays.

Wow, so nice to hear from the author of his pack that originally started from Cheapo. It's like I came back to play this pack that's now available for NL at just the right time and you happened along to see that someone recently played your pack. You should definitely feel honored that your pack continues to live on due to how it got converted to NL. This honor goes to namida for converting the pack and making it playable in very old formats NL. I myself am glad this pack is available for NL, as I absolutely agree that this pack of yours is very high quality due to the many awesome levels and definitely deserves to be made playable in more modern engines. Most importantly, it's a very approachable pack for many since it stays quite easy throughout, even in the Taxing and Mayhem ranks. I definitely felt no real challenge until late into the Taxing and Mayhem ranks. That's not a bad thing at all. I love packs of any difficulty.

Since this was also brought up in recent discussions, do you have any plans to fix up the pack, or at least convert and make it available for the most recent New Formats NL? Seems like plenty of people here would love to see the pack playable in much more modern NL versions, as the one the pack is available and playable on is extremely outdated and no longer has any support in terms of fixing up bugs. Not to mention that the player controls are far clunkier than the newest NL versions and is what turns many people away from v1.43. However, as can be seen in the discussions, it would be extremely laborious to do so due to how much manual editing by hand needs to be done, and so far no one has really stepped up to do it. Now that you've been on again, perhaps you might consider converting it, but if not then it's fine. Whatever you decide to do with your pack we'll just have to respect your wishes.

I'm not sure if you been using NL or how much exposure you have had to it in the time you haven't been on, so I'm probably bringing this up way too soon for you and should take a step back and slow down so that you can catch your breath and bring yourself up to speed with it. Then again, I think you have known that your pack has been available for NL for quite a while in past login sessions. Again, I don't know your history with NL and so I shouldn't be making any assumptions.

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The two Armatage Shanks levels were more difficult when the bombers had to count down from 5. The second copy probably required perfect timing, but now with instant explosions it's much easier.

I believe these levels have exactly identical layouts. The only difference is what skills are available, with the Taxing repeat having less skills, but the solution I use in both are exactly the same, which is why I don't understand the point of these levels, since there isn't much to distinguish between the original and the repeat level. Even if the bombers were timed, the levels are still easy, and the solutions are still identical.

Essman · « **Reply #77 on:** November 16, 2020, 03:56:08 AM »

Quote from: kaywhyn on November 16, 2020, 02:14:50 AM

Wow, so nice to hear from the author of his pack that originally started from Cheapo. It's like I came back to play this pack that's now available for NL at just the right time and you happened along to see that someone recently played your pack. You should definitely feel honored that your pack continues to live on due to how it got converted to NL. This honor goes to namida for converting the pack and making it playable in very old formats NL.

I was still subscribed to this thread so it was cool to see more replies. Namida did an amazing job converting my old level pack, I'm very grateful. I made them using a very basic level editor. Testing and organizing levels was not smooth at all, so there are some blunders like the two nearly identical Armatage Shanks levels.

Quote from: kaywhyn on November 16, 2020, 02:14:50 AM

I myself am glad this pack is available for NL, as I absolutely agree that this pack of yours is very high quality due to the many awesome levels and definitely deserves to be made playable in more modern engines. Most importantly, it's a very approachable pack for many since it stays quite easy throughout, even in the Taxing and Mayhem ranks. I definitely felt no real challenge until late into the Taxing and Mayhem ranks. That's not a bad thing at all. I love packs of any difficulty.

Thanks! If I start playing again I'm definitely looking for the easier packs to start with.

Quote from: kaywhyn on November 16, 2020, 02:14:50 AM

Since this was also brought up in recent discussions, do you have any plans to fix up the pack, or at least convert and make it available for the most recent New Formats NL? Seems like plenty of people here would love to see the pack playable in much more modern NL versions, as the one the pack is available and playable on is extremely outdated and no longer has any support in terms of fixing up bugs.

No plans, but if I had the time I'd choose to recreate/redesign all of the old Copycat levels using the standard graphic styles. Basically start each level from scratch and keep a similar solution, or rework it as necessary. Just have to learn the new level editor and take it slow (if I find some time...)

kaywhyn · « **Reply #78 on:** November 16, 2020, 04:08:35 AM »

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No plans, but if I had the time I'd choose to recreate/redesign all of the old Copycat levels using the standard graphic styles. Basically start each level from scratch and keep a similar solution, or rework it as necessary. Just have to learn the new level editor and take it slow (if I find some time...)

Sounds great!

I absolutely enjoyed your Copycat Lemmings pack to the max, especially this second play through this time around. I would had posted in this topic earlier when I had played through the pack months ago earlier this year, but I didn't realize that I didn't have the setting to automatically save replays if successful enabled. So, I remedied that by playing through the pack a few nights ago to get my replays for the pack so I can share them with you/this community and provide awesome feedback

Nice to finally meet you and see you on here again. Welcome back.

jkapp76 · « **Reply #79 on:** August 22, 2021, 11:17:06 PM »

Can anyone post a working link to this old pack?

kaywhyn · « **Reply #80 on:** August 25, 2021, 01:10:58 PM »

@Jeremy Here you go

Copycat v1.01

You need v1.43nF of the NL player to play the pack, which you can download here: Neolemmix v1.43nF

jkapp76 · « **Reply #81 on:** August 26, 2021, 12:29:59 AM »

Thanks! I been wanting to play with this.