Author Topic: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"  (Read 19232 times)

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Offline namida

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NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« on: February 17, 2015, 12:56:45 pm »
Well, here's the first publicly-available results of the efforts to get Cheapo levels running on NeoLemmix. :)

One warning, this is quite a large file compared to most NeoLemmix players. This is fairly unavoidable without some major changes to NeoLemmix's formats; the DAT compression algorithm simply isn't made with having every level as an 18-bit color VGASPEC in mind. I've implemented a few tricks to reduce this, but it's still fairly large. These days that shouldn't be an issue for most people, but there's your warning, just in case.

This is using the NeoLemmix V1.29n player.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/ocpi57ywjmzusjb/CopycatLemmingsNeo.exe
http://www.neolemmix.com/old/neolemmix/CopycatLemmingsNeo.exe

By the way, the cheat code is...
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also - if you prefer it over the Amiga musics (I'll get around to including the genuine Copycat / Cheapo ones eventually!), the music pack from either Orig or LPI will both work perfectly fine with this. :)



Issues, Complaints, Oddities, Etc

When reporting an issue, if you can, please let me know:
- Does the issue occur when playing in a genuine copy of Copycat Lemmings?
- Does the issue occur when playing in a genuine copy of Cheapo?
(I would've thought the answer would always be the same for both of these, but I have actually found one issue which I thought was a problem with the conversion due to a different behaviour from Copycat Lemmings, only to find out that Cheapo behaved exactly the same way.)

Issues that have been fixed in updates
- First release had a bug where objects that were meant to be horizontally flipped weren't, while objects that were vertically flipped were also horizontally flipped. This was fixed in the second version.
- Up to second release had a bug where no one-way-right arrows were converted (lefts were fine). This was fixed in the third version.
- Under Copycat/Cheapo mechanics, lemmings cannot pass thorugh a diagonal corner gap like they can in Lemmix / NeoLemmix. The 4th version adds a tweak in "Cheapo Mode" to alter this mechanic.
- Some different traps weren't working, now due to trigger areas being too high. One example is Fun 25. This was fixed in version 5.
- Since applying the diagonal-gap fix, it seemed lemmings can only step up by up to 5 pixels maximum instead of 6. This was fixed in version 5.
- Finally found and dealt with the proper source of the trap issues in verison 6; this actually arose from a difference in trigger areas between Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo.

Mechanics differences that have significant impacts
- Block-Bombing levels still have blockers, even though the norm is to remove them in NeoLemmix versions (due to the instant bombers). At this point, I have no intention to change this; I may reconsider later.

Verified bugs/issues
None at the moment

Reported bugs/issues I haven't checked on yet
None at the moment

Things that might look like problems but aren't
- Fun 27, a small part of the exit is visible. Nothing is wrong here; it was like this in the original Copycat Lemmings too.
- Direct drop works. This is just standard NeoLemmix mechanics; but with that being said, this worked in Copycat / Cheapo too anyway.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2015, 03:16:25 pm by namida »
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Wafflem

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #1 on: February 17, 2015, 01:14:59 pm »
Alright, testing this player right now.

Some mistakes I've noticed:
Fun 3 - The fire blower on the left side is flipped in the wrong direction.
Fun 16 - The jaw trap is not working.
Fun 26 - The fire blower on the left side is in the wrong direction, while the one on the right side appears to be over the terrain.
Fun 27 (spoilered):
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
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Offline Simon

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2015, 01:21:09 pm »


Just what the doctor ordered! Thanks for the efforts.

-- Simon

Offline namida

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2015, 01:23:22 pm »
I'll check out the other ones soon; as for Fun 27, I'm not sure whether this is what Essman intended, but it's definitely the same in the authentic version of Copycat Lemmings.
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Offline namida

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2015, 01:41:20 pm »
Okay, I've found the source of the issue with objects that should be flipped horizontally. When determining whether to set the "flip horizontal" flag, it's actually checking the "flip vertical" flag and deciding based on that instead. (However, it is correctly using the "flip horizontal" flag to determine if an entrance should be left-facing.)

So, don't worry about reporting further issues relating to objects not being properly flipped horizontally; I've tracked down the source of this one.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Wafflem

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2015, 01:50:58 pm »
Thanks!

Note that I'm using the cheat code and skimming through each level, so I may be missing some mistakes.

One thing I've noticed is that levels involving bombing (like Tricky 11 and 16) seem to easier now due to the fact that they are instant bombers.

Tricky 8: A lemming on the left side can slip through the gap between the two triangles.
Tricky 10: Did direct drop ever work on Cheapo? Because that's how I solved this level. (replay attached)
Tricky 14: (replay attached)
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

On another note, overall, this is a challenging pack so far compared to the Original Lemmings.
YouTube: www.tinyurl.com/YTWafflem
Twitch: www.twitch.tv/Wafflem467

Have level designer's block right now? Have some of my incomplete levels for LOTS of ideas!

Offline namida

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2015, 01:55:53 pm »
If the apparent error relates solely to terrain, I can almost guarantee it was like that in the original too. Unlike (Neo)Lemmix, (Super)Lemmini and Lix, in Cheapo the level maps are actually just one giant image (hence why every level had to be made into a VGASPEC for the conversion). It does provide pieces you can put together to make the level, but it doesn't remember what pieces you've put where - it's essentially like copying and pasting them rather than building the level out of pieces.

Thus, the terrain will be exactly the same in this as it was in the original. Objects, and possibly level stats (though I think I've ironed out all the stats bugs) are what you especially need to look for, as well as any levels that just plain don't work (crashing the game or whatever).

And yes, Cheapo had direct drop. In fact, it worked the same way there that it virtually always has in NeoLemmix - there doesn't even need to be terrain underneath the exit, a faller can use an exit in mid-air (as many Sky levels have demonstrated).

One mechanics difference that might actually come up is with the diagonally-adjacent pixels thing. In Lemmix and NeoLemmix at least, a lemming could slip through a gap like this (with X representing where there's a pixel of terrain):

      XXXXXX
      XXXXXX
      XXXXXX
      XXXXXX
      XXXXXX
      XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX
XXXXXX


However, in Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo, they can't fall through such gaps. This might make a difference on some levels; indeed this would seem to be the case on both Tricky 8 and Tricky 14. I don't really want to make a mechanics change though, so I might see if Essman is okay with making slight alterations to these levels to account for this difference.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline namida

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2015, 02:39:33 pm »
I'm about to test the version which fixes the horizontal flip problem, as well as another (less severe) error that may arise from horizontal flipping. If (or rather, when) all goes well, I'll upload the improved version here.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Wafflem

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2015, 02:42:29 pm »
There seems to be a one-way wall mistake in Taxing 19 underneath the vertical line of steel.

Also, I don't think that bone with the small gap on the left of Tricky 14 is a mistake; that small gap in the repeat Taxing 22 is covered.

In Mayhem 5, shouldn't the lemmings come out facing left on the left trapdoor? I'm not sure because I haven't really played the Copycat version of this level.

Tricky 27 and Mayhem 13 have fake steel, but I'm not sure if Autosteel covered those fake areas.
« Last Edit: February 17, 2015, 02:54:17 pm by DynaLem »
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Have level designer's block right now? Have some of my incomplete levels for LOTS of ideas!

Offline namida

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #9 on: February 17, 2015, 02:59:59 pm »
There seems to be a one-way wall mistake in Taxing 19 underneath the vertical line of steel.

I'll look into it.

Quote
Also, I don't think that bone with the small gap on the left of Tricky 14 is a mistake; that small gap in the repeat Taxing 22 is covered.
Not a mistake; as I said, I can almost guarantee there'll be no terrain mistakes. However, unless I'm recalling wrong (or Copycat functioned differently from Cheapo in this regard, which is unlikely but definitely not impossible), in genuine Copycat Lemmings, lemmings can't pass through those diagonal corner-gaps.

Quote
In Mayhem 5, shouldn't the lemmings come out facing left on the left trapdoor? I'm not sure because I haven't really played the Copycat version of this level.
I'll check what happens on the authentic version.

Quote
Tricky 27 and Mayhem 13 have fake steel, but I'm not sure if Autosteel covered those fake areas.

None of these levels use autosteel. Autosteel only works with levels using regular terrain pieces, not VGASPEC levels. As I've mentioned, every level converted here is done as a VGASPEC for technical reasons (though the converted graphic sets do include the terrain pieces, so it's perfectly possible to build a level the way you're used to using these sets; it's just not possible to convert existing Cheapo levels to a layout of terrain pieces, it can only be done as a VGASPEC). Therefore, all steel is done using the more traditional method of steel areas. And thus, if no steel area existed there in the Cheapo version, no steel area will exist there in the NeoLemmix version.



Anyway, I've uploaded Attempt 2 now. This should fix the horizontal flip issues, as well as the non-working traps in some levels. Disregard that. I didn't properly add all the fixed versions of the levels into the EXE (though it should fix all the non-working traps, as that was a graphic set issue and all of those were added). Only the Fun levels have been fixed in regards to flipped objects; I'll get a version where *all* levels are fixed uploaded soon.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline namida

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #10 on: February 17, 2015, 03:30:21 pm »
Okay, now there's a fixed version uploaded. This should fix most, if not all, issues with flipped objects and triggered traps.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Wafflem

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #11 on: February 17, 2015, 03:36:24 pm »


Just what the doctor ordered! Thanks for the efforts.

-- Simon

Off-topic but Copycat-related, but I've always wondered, where did that guy and cat/beast hybrid thingy come from? Are these original characters created by Essman, or did they come from a show or something?
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Have level designer's block right now? Have some of my incomplete levels for LOTS of ideas!

Offline namida

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #12 on: February 17, 2015, 03:49:18 pm »
^ No idea about that.

I checked on the two issues you mentioned (Taxing 19 and Mayhem 5).

Mayhem 5, there is nothing wrong here. The lemmings come out facing right in the authentic version too.

However, Taxing 19, there is definitely a MAJOR issue you've uncovered here - the other half(ish) of that wall, including the spot inbetween the two sections of one-way-lefts, is meant to be one-way right. But in fact, all one-way-rights appear to be missing. The cause of this is basically that, I assumed that they'd be listed in the XML file as "RightArrows" since one-way-lefts are "LeftArrows", but they're actually listed as "RightArrow" (no S on the end). Thus, the convertor didn't recognize them at all. I'll upload another update soon - might just give it a bit longer to see if any other issues surface first.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Essman

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #13 on: February 17, 2015, 04:54:34 pm »
However, in Copycat Lemmings and Cheapo, they can't fall through such gaps. This might make a difference on some levels; indeed this would seem to be the case on both Tricky 8 and Tricky 14. I don't really want to make a mechanics change though, so I might see if Essman is okay with making slight alterations to these levels to account for this difference.

Make any changes necessary to the level to make them playable. I'm excited to try this out and play through the old levels and see if they are any good.

Offline Essman

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Re: NeoLemmix version of "Copycat Lemmings"
« Reply #14 on: February 17, 2015, 04:59:14 pm »
Off-topic but Copycat-related, but I've always wondered, where did that guy and cat/beast hybrid thingy come from? Are these original characters created by Essman, or did they come from a show or something?

Everything was guaranteed unoriginal! Those images are from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_Does_the_Sun_Shine%3F_(The_Sun_Is_a_Mass_of_Incandescent_Gas)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Oso