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Messages - Proxima

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NeoLemmix Levels / Re: Lemmings Redux
« on: Today at 07:04:33 am »
So, the voting was rather inconclusive. Only four people voted, which isn't too surprising -- Redux polls haven't been getting much attention, and a lot of people aren't all that interested in talismans. There was one vote for 36, one for 40-48, one for 50 and one for 50+. So all I can really glean from that is that overall, increasing the number is favoured, but no specific number is favoured. So I'll look through the recent feedback, make decisions, and see what we end up with.

Firstly, based on feedback and having another look at the levels myself, I am withdrawing these from consideration:

* SNOW JOKE, 1 basher: This is done by bashing under the entire level and building up to the exit from the right. It's interesting that this is possible in NL, but doesn't feel talisman-worthy; and it would be impossible on the original level due to the time limit.
* SEGA Four, no climbers: Neither commenter liked this one very much.
* With a twist of lemming, please, no climbers: Namida found this "too fiddly" and Minim wasn't a fan either.

These were liked by both commenters and are definitely going in:

* No justice for the hero, save 100%
* ROCKY ROAD, 2 builders (maybe as a replacement for the current talisman)
* Steel Block Party, no builders

That means the minimum we can now have is 37 (if the PoP YoR ToP talisman and ROCKY ROAD's existing talisman are dropped), while the maximum is 47, if we keep both those and all the ones still under discussion. (We could, of course, include others not on the current list, but since no-one has suggested any and the discussion isn't attracting much interest, I would like to get it wrapped up as soon as possible.)

I need to check ROCKY ROAD, since namida (in discord) implied that it's possible to save 100% with only 2 builders, which seems improbable.

I'll have a play through all the talismans still under discussion and make a final decision, taking feedback into account, in the next week or two, so this is the last chance for anyone else to chime in with their opinions.

When clicking on a talisman with a save requirement, the popup displays the requirement in the form "Save XX / YY" where YY is the total number of lemmings + neutrals + zombies on the level.

Zombies should not be included, because they are hostile entities and saving them isn't part of the goal.

Challenges / Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« on: November 29, 2020, 04:51:36 am »
The remainder of Windy and first half of Stormy, solved by me, namida and nin10doadict. There are a lot of levels in this bunch where the result is just "you need all the given skills", but since we started looking at PimoLems, it makes sense to finish the pack:


11 "From Pillar to Post" - 2 bombers, 1 builder, 2 diggers
12 "Break the Ice" - 2 climbers, 2 floaters, 7 builders
13 "Up the Abacus" - 2 builders, 2 bashers
14 "The Landing Strip" - 2 climbers, 1 bomber, 2 builders, 2 miners
15 "For the Greater Good" - 1 climber, 2 builders, 2 diggers
16 "Try To Compromise Before You Cue" - 2 blockers, 2 bashers, 1 digger
17 "X Marks Nothing" - 1 climber, 1 floater, 3 builders, 1 basher
18 "Underground Water Storage" - 1 basher, 1 miner
19 "Mizmaze" - 1 climber, 1 bomber, 1 builder, 1 basher
20 "Nick of Time !" - 1 climber, 1 floater, 10 builders, 4 bashers


1 "Pop'n'top" - 2 climbers, 2 bombers, 1 builder, 2 bashers, 1 miner
2 "Bibbledi-Bobbledi-Boo" - 1 floater, 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
3 "Diamond Ribs" - 2 climbers, 2 floaters, 1 builder, 6 bashers
4 "Rule of Three" - 1 climber, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 9 builders
5 "Timing & Space" - 1 bomber, 3 builders, 1 basher
6 "A Breezy Breeze !" - 1 bomber, 4 builders, 1 basher
7 "Diving Area" - 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 builder, 3 bashers, 2 diggers
8 "Broad Pit" - 1 climber, 2 floaters, 2 bombers, 1 blocker, 8 builders, 2 bashers, 1 miner
9 "A Matter of Pragmatism" - 1 climber, 3 blockers, 2 bashers, 1 digger
10 "Erbalunga" - 2 builders, 3 bashers, 3 diggers

NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« on: November 28, 2020, 06:03:52 pm »
For the customed music to work properly, I noticed that you have to put the "music from the pack" files in the "music" folder directly, and not in a subfolder. So, ok ! ;) (However, I imagine that there must be some method to leave the music files in a subfolder ???)

The level files contain pointers to where they expect the music to be. So if the level file has the line "MUSIC PimoLems_01" then it will look in the main music folder, but if it says "MUSIC PimoLems\PimoLems_01" then it will look inside a subfolder called "PimoLems".

That's why the zip file I posted not only exports the music to a subfolder, but also has all the level files fixed to point to that subfolder.

Challenges / Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« on: November 28, 2020, 08:57:12 am »
And the first half of Windy:

1 "Have A Lem Soda" - 2 builders
2 "Return to the Fold" - 1 climber, 4 builders, 1 miner, 1 digger
3 "You Lempty-Headed Creatures !" - 1 bomber, 1 miner
4 "Sandcastles in the Sand" - 7 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
5 "How Do I Turn Back ?" - 3 builders, 1 basher
6 "Diggers Mania" - 6 blockers, 3 builders, 11 diggers
7 "Take on the World !" - 7 builders, 1 digger
8 "Step by Step" - 2 bashers, 1 digger
9 "The Hiking Tour" - 1 climber, 1 floater, 5 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
10 "Me sorry, me lost..." - 1 climber, 1 basher, 1 digger

Challenges / Re: [NeoLemmix] Skills you can't live without
« on: November 28, 2020, 06:22:57 am »
We're better at starting packs than finishing them :P so here are the results for PimoLems/Calm, done by me and namida.

Some of these may be considered backroutes or at least unintended, especially Calm 2 no floater / no miner, Calm 5 no builders and Calm 17 no bashers, but since this is an easy rank and most levels are any-way-you-want, I hope these are not going to lead to any changes to the levels.

1 "The Bad Beginning" - None
2 "Training Day" - 1 climber, 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 miner
3 "We Are Lem-Bob-Omb!" - 4 bombers
4 "Emerald Cave" - 4 builders
5 "Better Run for Shelter" - None
6 "Lemming Falls" - None
7 "Lemstones" - 1 floater, 2 builders
8 "Cloud-Covered Stalactite" - 2 bashers
9 "The Strange Relics of Lemnos" - None
10 "It's a Kind Lembourhood" - 7 builders
11 "Minimal Design" - 3 builders
12 "These Ain't No Jedi Swords" - 1 climber, 1 miner, 3 diggers
13 "Lems, Stock, and Barrels" - None
14 "Pagoda St" - 2 builders
15 "Find Your Way Up !" - 3 builders
16 "Don't Look Down !" - 4 builders
18 "Clumps" - 2 blockers, 2 builders
19 "Iron Industry" - 2 bashers, 2 miners, 2 diggers
20 "Spring Break !" - 10 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner

NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] PimoLems [Difficulty: Medium]
« on: November 28, 2020, 04:08:34 am »
For anyone who wants it: I've made an all-in-one zip of PimoLems and its music. The music will automatically download into a subfolder of the music folder, and all levels have been edited to correctly refer to the music inside the subfolder.

NeoLemmix Main / Re: [ALL PACKS] Packs Featuring Repeat Levels
« on: November 27, 2020, 06:09:39 pm »
Some trivia concerning repeat levels in original Lemmings:

* There are exactly 40 pairs of repeat levels and 40 unique levels.
* All repeat pairs, other than We all fall down, have one level appearing before Tricky 14 (MENACING !!) and one after.
* The furthest separated repeat pair is Fun 4 and Mayhem 20.
* Fun 3 (Tailor-made for blockers) and Fun 22 (A beast of a level) are the only Fun levels with no repeat. Creating the "missing" repeat of Fun 3 has been extremely popular among custom level designers, to the point that one such repeat is titled "Lemming Cliche".
* Repeat pairs are produced by what is called "oddtabling": only one level has its full data present, while the other has an "oddtable" that refers to its counterpart for terrain and has its own data for level stats and skillset. NeoLemmix used to offer oddtabling, but no longer does in new-formats.

NeoLemmix Main / Re: [ALL PACKS] Packs Featuring Repeat Levels
« on: November 27, 2020, 05:16:16 pm »
Lemmings Redux

The list of repeats is much shorter for Redux, because it was a deliberate decision to trim most of them out -- indeed, during the early stages of development we discussed the possibility of going for a completely repeat-free pack, but decided against it because some repeat pairs had merit -- a few tutorial levels have good repeats; there were a couple we wanted to keep in the 20-of-all section; Genesis has some pairs where both levels are distinct puzzles (although the only one where we actually kept both levels, "Fall and no life", has a slight terrain difference, so doesn't count by the strict definition).

Group#Title Version AGroup#Title Version BDifferences
Gentle2Only floaters can survive thisQuirky2It's Lemmingentry, WatsonSave requirement & skillset
Gentle4Now use miners and climbersLunatic4No added colours or lemmingsLem count, save requirement, release rate & skillset
Gentle7Builders will help you hereZany19Postcard from LemminglandLem count, save requirement & skillset
Gentle17You Live and LemLunatic21The Steel Mines of KesselSave requirement & skillset
Gentle22Let's be careful out thereManic14Come on over to my placeSave requirement & skillset

Engine Bugs / Suggestions / [SUG][PLAYER] Suggestions for menu icons
« on: November 27, 2020, 08:03:23 am »
Firstly, now that it's decided that the save requirement icon will use the Crystal exit, the release rate icon should use the Crystal trapdoor to match.

Secondly, I just noticed this, but the hourglass icon has a little sand in its lower half, while the upper half is full. The falling of sand would obviously leave some empty space in the upper half. (The in-game icon gets this right.)

Engine Bugs / Suggestions / Re: [DISC][PLAYER] The final new object types
« on: November 27, 2020, 07:13:00 am »
This is one of the reasons I don't like the idea of this object, to be honest. A perfectly backroute-proof level, to my mind, is just as arbitrary as a trivial "Just (Skill)" level; it might as well be a tutorial level. The first 7 levels of Lemmings are about as backroute-proof as that game gets! ;P

In other words, it's not giving the player any options other than to "paint by the numbers" and follow the exact intentions of the level designer. Levels like these can, on occasion, be quite fun if they happen to reveal a certain trick or if they have one of those "aha!" moments when you realise how to traverse a particular obstacle, but too many of them can just start to feel like you're following instructions rather than playing a game.

This is why I think it's important to distinguish the concepts of "backroute" and "unintended solution". There isn't a sharp dividing line, but the way I've expressed it before is that a backroute feels more like bypassing the puzzle rather than engaging with it. If a level has a glaring backroute (and doesn't get updated to fix it) then solvers who spot the backroute first, in most cases, won't bother continuing to search for the intended solution (especially since sometimes there are trick levels where something that looks like a backroute actually is intended) and so they won't get that satisfying "aha" moment and won't get to appreciate the elegance and cleverness of the level's design.

Some great levels have just one possible way to solve them, like "Fall and no life" from Genesis (Manic 20 in Redux). Others can have a variety of solutions and still be excellent levels, like Redux's version of "Let's go camping". (And since the Genesis original of that level was plagued by an extremely obvious backroute, that one is a very clear case where fixing the backroute made it a much better level.)

Challenges / Re: [NeoLemmix] Fastest Time Records
« on: November 27, 2020, 03:09:05 am »
It was bothering me that The Crankshaft was the only Gentle level with a listed time above 2 minutes, so I messed around a bit :P

EDIT: Replaced the replay with a more serious attempt at optimising.

Also, It's hero time in 39.53, another one where I am pretty certain this is the absolute minimum possible.

Challenges / Re: [NeoLemmix] Fastest Time Records
« on: November 27, 2020, 02:52:44 am »
If it was a backroute, why would they make a second version of the level instead of just fixing the first one? It's always felt clear to me that the platform is there because you are meant to use it in the first level -- which is why the second one is (intended to be) harder.

Anyway, I've started having a look from the beginning, but these are laborious to do so I'm only doing them in small chunks. Here are my improvements for Gentle 1-16. Gentle 6 (A task for bombers) is obviously impossible to improve further, but even on levels as simple as these, it's hard to make guarantees for most of them.

Most of these are just optimisations of the standard solutions with skill spamming and interrupted miner staircases, but a couple are more interesting -- especially 15 (Darkness of the royal family) in 31 seconds and 16 (A beast of a level) in 55 seconds.

Especially because such an alphabetical list would have to be updated whenever new tilesets come out. Simply adding new lines between existing ones would be straightforward, but if the order index is required in addition to that, such a manual changing of the order numbers would have to be done every time a new tileset comes out.

Leave gaps. For instance, if the indexes for proxima_tile, proxima_persia and proxima_minesweeper are 160, 161 and 162, then have strato_autumn (or whatever comes next) at 180 in case I make more styles later.

Great questions :thumbsup: I'll do my best with them....

Favourite trick:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

If I were allowed to make one change to one skill: The laserer's range should be much less. At the moment it's around 240 pixels, which is larger than most levels; I would suggest at most 80.

If I could choose only one of the skills: Slider. The spearer and grenader are fun to play around with, but I'm not yet convinced they will be the best to work with long-term, because their backroute potential will be very hard to control. The slider is really interesting because it gives the lemming a different way of moving around the level, which can be both an advantage and a disadvantage; it can get to places other lemmings can't, and easily separate itself from the crowd to gain distance for working, but it will also turn away from the path set up for other lemmings and may need to find its own path to an exit.

If I could keep three and had to reject one: Laserer. It's ridiculously overpowered, especially with the current range, but even if the range were something more sensible -- upwards mobility is usually hard for lemmings to achieve, but the laserer gives it to you for free. Add to that the overlap with other skills... I just can't get excited about the laserer and don't see myself ever using it.

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