As I mentioned during one of your streams, the inconsistency ("20 lemmings" but "20 To Be Saved") bothers me, especially because this is something that was introduced in NLCE and is fine in vanilla NL.

But considering that nothing in the level stats is a title of anything (except of course for the level and rank titles), maybe it would be better to lowercase everything and capitalise only the first letter of each line (except when it's a number)?

And while we're looking at the preview screen, I prefer NL's uncluttered screen, with no release rate and no "Infinite Time". (Time limit should be pointed out when there is one, but this is very rare in NL.) Why were these changes made in CE, and was there ever a discussion?

Do we really need a way to thumbs-down a post? I don't want this forum to go down that road.

I'm pretty sure you're right and a basher and miner can mutually cancel in DOS (facing the same or opposite ways); I remember seeing this come up in challenge discussions, but I don't remember which specific levels.

Quote from: Guigui on June 23, 2026, 02:21:26 PMThe more usual way to do this is to place that pickup skill where you want the lems to go, then make the use of that skill mandatory to solve the level.

That ignores UGO's specific goal: to make the pickup skill required for a talisman, but not required for solving the level.

I still believe that the methods I suggested could work or could be made to work, for pretty much any level. In case it's not clear, I'll go over the steps more carefully:
* Choose a skill that is not currently used, for example, digger.
* Add a section, enclosed from the rest of the level, with a pre-placed lemming and a separate exit. Set up this new section so the lemming can only be saved with a digger.
* Add a digger skill pickup.
* Now, if for example there are 20 lemmings in the main level, you can have a talisman for saving 21. This requires getting the pickup skill.

It's already possible to require lemmings to go to specific places, in several ways:

* Buttons that unlock an exit. (If you want the buttons to be optional, for a talisman rather than for passing the level, you can have an open exit in the main part of the level, and a closed-off part with a locked exit, then have a talisman for saving all the lemmings in the closed-off part.)

* Pick-up skills that aren't required for the normal solution, but are required for a talisman. The most obvious way to do this is with cloner pick-up skills and a talisman for saving extra lemmings, but that is prone to introducing backroutes (unintended solutions). You could also have a trapped group of lemmings, and pick-up skills that would let you save them (which could be climbers, builders, or any destructive skill).

Quote from: WillLem on June 18, 2026, 11:00:59 PMThis wouldn't be trivial to implement tbh. What would be the benefit of being able to see the outline in the case of hatches (which have a 1px trigger point)?

Currently, when an object is buried in terrain, then in clear physics mode you can only see the trigger area -- vastly better than nothing, of course, but it means you have to mouse over it to tell what type of object it is, and you don't get to have an overview of the level where you can see everything at once. Wouldn't it be nice to still be able to see object outlines?

Even if you don't want to do that, I stand by my preference for light hatches (and objects generally) and dark lemmings.

Water trigger areas are bright magenta, with a darker shade used when they overlap terrain. I feel we should do a similar thing with hatches: bright normally (and maybe a bit more yellow to make them more distinct from lemmings), and darker when they overlap terrain.

Quickly guessing and trying some round numbers, (0x80, 0xC0, 0) and (0x48, 0x6C, 0) might be about right?

In addition to what kaywhyn said, when you play two levels with the same ID one after another, the engine thinks you are still playing the same level and will start in replay mode. Sure, this isn't a huge deal as you can click to cancel the replay, but it's confusing for new players and best avoided.

Levels 7 and 8 have the same ID; so do 9 and 10; so do 5 and 11. I haven't checked through the rest of the pack to see whether there are more clashes.

Reason: Why should NL levels in the same pack have all-different IDs?

This is where I remade the original 2-player levels in Lix. Download is very old and I haven't checked if it works on recent Lix versions.

I don't know about all, but I can list all the L1/ONML homages in the Lemforum community pack:

Lovely 2 "Pipe Dream" -- based on 2-player level "The Pipe Room"; the version now in LCP is a reduced version, and the original was a lot closer to the 2-player level.
Lovely 4 "Diamond Dash" -- based on a Genesis 2-player level
Lovely 26 "Charge of the Lix Brigade" -- repeat of Quirky 4 (see below)
Lovely 35 "One-Way Road" -- probably inspired by Crazy 2 "Dolly Dimple"

Quirky 4 "Follow the Yellow Brick Road" -- inspired by Crazy 3 "Many lemmings make level work"
Quirky 32 "Box Set" -- mashup of Tame 9 "And now this...", Fun 12 "Patience", Fun 27 "Let's be careful out there", Fun 8 "Not as complicated as it looks", Tame 1 "Down and Out Lemmings", the first part of Mayhem 1 "Steel Works", Tame 4 "Downwardly Mobile Lemmings" and Fun 10 "Smile if you love lemmings"

Cunning 20 "Come on Down to My Place" -- layout inspired by Fun 10 "Smile if you love lemmings"
Cunning 22 "Compression Method 2" -- entrance/exit flip of Taxing 6 "Compression Method 1"
Cunning 36 "Seven Pillars of Lixdom" -- loosely based on one of my Mac levels, which took the layout from Mayhem 13 "The Great Lemming Caper"
Cunning 39 "Dr Strangelix" -- based on one of my Mac levels, which took the layout from Mayhem 8 "Last one out is a rotten egg"

Daunting 8 "A Towering Proposition" -- layout probably inspired by Fun 12 "Patience"
Daunting 12 "Go West!" -- layout inspired by Fun 8 "Not as complicated as it looks"
Daunting 19 "This is Too Much Stepping Stones" -- layout inspired by Mayhem 17 "Stepping Stones"
Daunting 31 "I'm Gonna Make You Mine" -- layout loosely inspired by Taxing 3 "Heaven can wait (we hope!)"
Daunting 36 "Rumble to the Bottom" -- repeat of Cunning 20 (see above)

Vicious 1 "Dividing Three By Two" -- inspired by my original solution to Taxing 1 "If at first you don't succeed"
Vicious 19 "Thomas the Climber" -- inspired by the max% solution to Wild 13 "ONWARD AND UPWARD"
Vicious 26 "100% Built by Lixes" -- inspired by the 100% solution to Taxing 18 "Tribute to M. C. Escher"
Vicious 32 "Survival of the Craftiest" -- inspired by 2-player level "May the craftiest player win"
Vicious 35 "Halfway Down the Stairs" -- layout inspired by Tame 9 "And now this..."

Hopeless 15 "From the Other Side" -- repeat of Cunning 39 (in this case, both levels are inspired by a repeat pair in my Mac levels)
Hopeless 18 "Think Inside the Box" -- repeat of Quirky 32 (see above)
Hopeless 20 "Metal City Mayhem" -- mashup of the first part of Mayhem 1 "Steel Works", Havoc 2 "Be more than just a number" and Wicked 3 "This Corrosion"
Hopeless 28 "The Lix Lies Down on Broadway" -- layout inspired by Flurry 16 "The Long Way Around"

It's not possible to save all on that level. But I don't consider it a major spoiler that both exits are used; that still doesn't tell you how to get enough lemmings there.

Also, I am very strongly against giving one level a title taken from another level, even if it's one we are not using. Mobius did a lot of this in the past and it has caused a lot of confusion that is now adding to the workload. Let's learn from this mistake and not repeat it.

I assume you mean the solution in kaywhyn's video. It is a shame that that works, but it's also a really advanced trick that many players won't be able to pull off, so for most solvers, the puzzle is still intact. And the solution is really beautiful, and there is no way I would consider throwing out over this.

Things have been quiet for a while now, so I just want to post an update on current progress.

I've played up to 4-17 in version 4, and have been continuing to fill out the spreadsheet with colour coding showing how much I like each level. Will has given his own feedback on the grey and pink highlighted levels in ranks 1 to 3, in addition to mobius's feedback above, so some of those I was unsure about are definitely staying.

I noticed that starting at the start of rank 4, nearly every level is getting rated highly, and looking ahead, I expect this to continue for the rest of the pack. So I think that at this point it's pretty safe to work on the assumption we will keep over 200 levels total, which means it makes sense to go ahead with the split pack.

I don't want to reply to everything said above, as I'll save most of my thoughts on individual levels for the round-up posts where I propose a selection for each rank. One thing I'll say now: while in most cases we are compiling existing levels and not changing them (other than to fix backroutes), we certainly can make changes if there is a good reason for it, and this can sometimes make the difference as to whether a level is worth keeping or not. For example, in 3-23 "A Small Problem...", the reason I rated this level low at first is that there are four groups of lemmings, each of which gets dropped into a narrow honeypot and has to be built out by stacking eight bricks from separate builders. The rest of the level is fine and (as mobius points out) interesting enough to keep; so the obvious solution is to make the honeypots smaller so that each crowd can be released with a single builder.

"Let's Split" is just not fun. Fifty lemmings must be saved by assigning every single one a climber, floater or miner; the bridge up to the top exit must be completed exactly after all the floaters have gone past, and there is no interesting puzzle in getting the timing right; it's just trial and error, with all that repetitive skill-assignment to be done again with each trial. Will rated this "Worst level so far" 

Since there hasn't been any feedback specifically on my proposed selection and ordering for rank 1, the next task will be a similar draft for rank 1 of the second pack. This does not mean the first rank is set in stone; when we have more of an idea of the shape of the pack overall, then we might end up making different choices there.

Quote from: Proxima on April 27, 2026, 08:57:55 PMA reminder to anyone who wants to contribute: the most helpful format is a description (video link will do) of both the backroute and the intended solution -- not just a fix suggestion, because if we can all see the backroute, we can all put our heads together to come up with the best fix.

And indeed "Cry for me" is a perfect illustration of this, because mobius's suggestion doesn't fix the backroute at all.

Spoiler

Intended solution: First top lemming builds to the red terrain; bash and mine to the exit. Two will slip past; make them floaters. One climbs up, builds to the exit; link the bottom crowds with a basher, build over the bash tunnel, and make everyone climb.

Backroute: First top lemming builds to the middle pillar, then to the exit. Four will slip past; make them floaters. Do the rest as in the intended solution.

(I don't remember exactly how I know the above-described solution is intended, but I remember the level from the Cheapo days, and I distinctly remember that at some point this was confirmed.)

A better fix is to reduce the floaters to 2, or increase the RR so that more lemmings fall past if you attempt the backroute. In Lix, the spawn interval is 15, corresponding to RR 88; in RotL v4 the RR is 80.