Lemmix goes Custom

[EricLang]

Currently working on a custom Lemmix version to make creating custom levelpacks more easy.
It will be called LemmixPlayerRemake.exe.

- All 9 classic lemmings styles will be built into the executable (dirt, fire, marble, pillar, brick, rock, snow, bubble). No christmas lemmings

-Levelpacks can be created as directories in a subdirectory called "LevelPacks". Each directory will be the name of the levelpack. The unused F4 button in the menu screen will be used to choose a levelpack.

-Each directory must contain a file called "sections.txt" which defines the names of the sections (like fun, tricky, taxing, mayhem) and filled with seperate lvl-files with the naming-convention xxyy.lvl.
xx is the sectionnumber
yy is the levelnumber
No gaps allowed.

-Still figuring out how to define custom music (how to link a level to a particular song).
The music files (.mod, .wav, or .mp3) can be put next to the .lvl files

-How about customizable skillsounds?

- Maybe it will be possible to use custom "special" levels which consist of one big tile (as the "beast" level etc.)

[Mr Kiwi]

That sounds fantastic.  Although why no Christmas?

[EricLang]

Because the style is just the snowstyle and the red lemmings do not add any special game-play.
Besides it would make matters more complicated. I have to add both the normal lemming-animations and the red lemmings animations.

[Dullstar]

This should work great for the Epic Lemmings Fangame!  It looks like it will have every feature I think it needs.  'Course, others want more complicated features, but they can learn to be content with what they get.

[Clam]

Most of the features I really want to see aren't related to game mechanics at all (the one exception being steel areas). They're just menu options and display screens which, in theory, should be easy to implement.

[Dullstar]

If we change steel physics, the level called "0_o" won't work.  It's designed by having to get to the exit via figuring out which metal block is not impossible to budge.  Don't worry.  The terrain attempts to drop hints.

[EricLang]

The program is almost ready to be thrown into testphase.
Any ideas how to link music to a specific level?
I was thinking about the following:
The program scans through the levelpack directory for files with the extension .mod or .wav or .mp3.
These files are sorted by alphabet. When there are - for example - 9 songs the first 9 levels will be linked to these songs. When playing level 10 we wrap back to song number 1 and so on.

[Dullstar]

Idea:  Don't include that YET.

We could make a new type of LVL that does the same things as the regular, only with music added in.  Same with .DAT.  That could work.  Or you could do this:

Changeable music:

Store data in .txt files (or something similar).

Maybe something like, (lemmix directory)\music\whatever.whatever

Don't copy that directly, of course.  I can't program anything.

[EricLang]

Of course it's possible to change the LVL format, but for the remake I would like to stay as close as possible to the original DOS lemmings. I AM working on a clone that is much more flexible, but that needs a lot more time.
Here are 2 screenshots (the links will probably be deleted in the future)

[Dullstar]

Blank level, eh?

I agree with not changing the .lvl format; that is why I suggested using .txt files to do this.

[The Doctor]

If you're going to make it have custom-this-and-that, you might as well create a successor to Cheapo (not literally of course, but in the sense that it has its own graphics, music, level, and interface formats) ... of course, this leads to the problems that Cheapo had (if you didn't have a particular file, your experience was a bit screwed up).

[Mindless]

or perhaps switch to the Lemmini level format?  that way we don't have to reinvent any more wheels.

[The Doctor]

The Lemmini format combined with the speed of Lemmix would be awesome. Therefore, those who can not use Custom Lemmix could still use the levels one way or another.

[Dullstar]

Lemmini had a flaw:  as far as I could tell, you could NOT use the regular graphics.

[The Doctor]

That's not a flaw, that was intentional. It meant that you could implement custom styles using its format. It's a totally different kettle of fish entirely.

Lemmini was a cross platform implementation of Lemmings using Lemmings for Windows' assets and Lemmings (Amiga) music. Lemmix, on the other hand, is a Delphi clone of Lemmings (DOS) using its assets and Lemmings (Amiga) music.

You can't really say Lemmini's implementation was a "flaw" as such, as it was a nearly entirely different kettle of fish altogether.

[EricLang]

The Lemmini file format is quite good. some disadvantages:
- use of gif's which are more difficult to implement regarding transparent colors
- use of tilesets, which I want to abandon.

The advantage is that it's a clear format. We only need textfiles and images.
That clarity is my goal as well.

I'll give it a think.

[Dullstar]

I just like the option of low resolution!

[ccexplore]

- All 9 classic lemmings styles will be built into the executable (dirt, fire, marble, pillar, brick, rock, snow, bubble). No christmas lemmings

If I recall correct, the tileset for Chrismas Lemmings is not totally identical to the Snow set.  The exit is different for example.  I'm not pushing hard for it, but do consider including xmas as a 10th style, even if you are just using it with normal lemmings animations.

-Still figuring out how to define custom music (how to link a level to a particular song).
The music files (.mod, .wav, or .mp3) can be put next to the .lvl files

If you already have a sections.txt, it would seem logical to me to store the music information there as well.  You could for example have one line in sections.txt that defines the normal cycle of music (a list of music files that the game cycles thru as you go from level to level), plus additional lines that define "special music" for particular levels in particular sections (like the special music for the "special graphics" levels that fall outside of the normal cycle of music).

-How about customizable skillsounds?

Sure.  Should be easy to include the information in sections.txt as well.

[EricLang]

Certainly, me too!

[The Doctor]

I'm still interested in tile mixing, an idea I like from the PSP. I'm also interested in background objects a la Lemmings II or wallpaper a la PSP Lemming.

[EricLang]

If I recall correct, the tileset for Chrismas Lemmings is not totally identical to the Snow set.  The exit is different for example.  I'm not pushing hard for it, but do consider including xmas as a 10th style, even if you are just using it with normal lemmings animations.

I already thought of that and included it.
Music and sound will become customizable too.

[Dullstar]

I do like the Christmas lights in that style.

[EricLang]

There are some flavours for storing lemmings data:

- Fully transparent "Lemmini-like" storage:
All static data (tiles, interactive objects, animations etc.) is stored on disk in seperate directories/files.
All levelpacks are stored in seperate directories.
The level-files are uncompressed, but readable with a wordprocessor like notepad (An inifile, xml, or something that looks much like it).
In addition Tiles and objects could be included into the seperate levelfiles thereby preventing unplayable levels because files are missing on your hard disk.
Advantages: Readable, editing possible without a dedicated program.
Disadvantages: More diskspace, Lots of directories, lots of files, levels are dependant of data on disk.

- My own system:
All static data is on disk (as one compressed file) or included as a resource into the executable.
Levelpacks are stored in one file, compression is used.
Advantages: less disk space, no extra directories needed, just a datafile and levelpack-files
Disadvantages: only readable for the Lemmix program

I need to make a decision on this to proceed.
Please give comments and ideas.

[Mindless]

Actually, I'd prefer that levels have the entire style embedded in them.  If I ever get around to updating the level database, it's easiest not to have the user upload the style that the level requires.  Maybe I'm just lazy. <_<

[Dullstar]

I thought we already discussed the large file issue?  Which was the projected result of embedding the style, wasn't it?

EDIT:  I checked for it in this thread, this discussion occurred in a different thread.

A side note I think would be useful:  just because of already existing packs and levels, the old system must still be usable.

[lorcan]

or have a level filer converter? (maybe a feature of the Lemmix editor?) 

[Dullstar]

Possible.  But then there is still the possibility of large files, which most of us don't want to risk.  However, there is another way the converter could be relevant.

An idea on a thread with the name "Custom tilesets in Lemmix?" (if I remember correctly) was that the graphic set could be stored in folders inside the lemmings directory or something like that.

In the Lemmix directory, a folder could be made with the name "Tilesets" or "Styles" or whatever the game will go with.  Then in there you could put a folder with the name of the tileset, make sub directories with the names "Terrain" and "Objects" and then store the tiles/objects in image files under the name "xx" (replacing the variables with the terrain/object number).

These files could still be huge because of this system, but at least you only would have a large download every time you wanted a new tileset as opposed to having a huge download because the tileset was included in the level.  Levels could support taking tiles from multiple sets too; the tileset concept could be removed except to keep similar tiles organized.

Remember, while modern hard drives are huge, that is not synonymous with "infinitely huge" so the fact that the hard drives are big these days is no excuse for making the levels larger than they need to be.  There may also be people with slow connections, so let's only torture them in getting new sets, not new levels.

[Clam]

I like efficiency. I'd favour keeping the files as small as possible (by keeping the tileset and level data separate), but if we do this we have to make absolutely sure that we don't end up with a situation where you have levels without the data files needed to run them. Someone mentioned a way of automatically detecting missing tilesets that you need to run a level. I like that idea very much.

[ccexplore]

Remember, while modern hard drives are huge, that is not synonymous with "infinitely huge" so the fact that the hard drives are big these days is no excuse for making the levels larger than they need to be.

Let's not get carried away here.  We're not talking about "infinitely huge" level sizes.  In fact, if you ever download MP3s onto your computer, an average MP3's size is already like at least 4-5 times larger than the kind of level file sizes we're talking about here.

Moreover, as I mentioned earlier, once downloaded, Lemmix can potentially break the file down into its components, and things that are already on your computer (eg. tileset) can then be discarded away.

So I don't see hard disk space as a primary concern, compared with slow connections.  And as for slow connections, we should do some experiments with determining how much of a difference we're talking about, and what exactly constitutes "torture".  It's hardly "torture" if we're only talking about 1 minute or so.

=======================

Of course, it's also possible to support both options.  Then the level designer could potentially upload 2 copies of the level, one that only has the level, and another that has levels + graphics.  Then someone can first try the level-only download, and then if they discovered they are missing the graphics, they can then go for the level+graphics download instead of tracking down how to find the missing graphics themselves.

[lorcan]

I like efficiency. I'd favour keeping the files as small as possible (by keeping the tileset and level data separate), but if we do this we have to make absolutely sure that we don't end up with a situation where you have levels without the data files needed to run them. Someone mentioned a way of automatically detecting missing tilesets that you need to run a level. I like that idea very much.

IMHO keeping the tilesets and level data separate would be the best option. The game engine could scan for available (installed) tilesets and thus detects missing ones without having to exit brutally This tilesets scan could either be performed during the main game initialization (to retrieve a list of all the styles available) or on the fly when loading a level (checking if the current style(s) exists on disk and adding the style(s) to the list if they aren't already stored in that list). Doing this we could use several styles in a single level and we could also edit existing styles and create new ones  This is what I thought for my project...

Anyway if we'll use embedded styles in level files, we should consider a level converter at a certain point...

[Mindless]

I think somebody mentioned embedding only the tiles that are used.  If level size is a concern, that is probably my favored solution.  Levels could be played without finding the tileset needed, but you'd still need the full tileset if you wanted to edit the level.

Consider that for DOS Lemmings, a graphics set is ~30kB.  Granted, Eric probably won't be storing the data quite so compactly, but these level files aren't going to be measured in megabytes.

[Dullstar]

Does anyone know the Cheapo lemmings format?  That could be helpful, because I don't think they were that large, and you could easily put in custom graphics.

I guess the best way to see the size would be to test it out, wouldn't it? 

[ccexplore]

I believe the Cheapo lemmings level format uses compression.  You can tell since if you put one in a zip file, the zip file's size is about the same as the original file size.

[namida]

The terrain in a Cheapo level is just a huge bitmap.

[Minim]

Why don't you try my vertical level "The grey matter". It's not from Cheapo but it can be downloaded from my level pack lm_set03. There is a similar template to this level in the file lm_set11.

[Dullstar]

Then you would you have done that?

[weirdybeardy]

Umm, hello!

I've been a lurker for a litlle while around here lately. I don't post often these days, but I still surf the forums. Some of you might remember me from the levels I uploaded last year, some of you won't, but that doesn't matter. Sorry if bumping this thread is unwarranted, but I couldn't resist asking if there's any progress on this project because it sounds really exciting. 

[Minim]

It's nice to have you here, weirdybeardy! You haven't noticed me yet, but I heard that this new forum is really taking over the old one! There are a couple of new users (Including me) with new level packs on the Lemmings file archive, so why not come in and enjoy the brand new creations by us. There are still a lot of stuff to keep you busy if you haven't turned away from the beloved game of the 90s.

[Dullstar]

Ummm, yeah.  It took out the old one.  Mr. K closed it, you know.