Hello,
I have completed the first two ranks of the pack. Replays attached and of course feedback. Also, I have an LP of the pack:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLbp2m4KlFpJu3-uIIffWI9Kin5fNCa-Y1. Enjoy!
Thank you to those who have watched them and the nice comments so far!
General FeedbackRevenge of the Lemmings (RotL) v4.0 is a best of the NL community pack for New Formats NL and compiled by mobius. It contains levels from several different level designers from all those years ago. Someone can correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the cutoff point was 2012/2013, so limiting the pack to levels made up to that point was a deliberate decision by the community. Any levels made after the cutoff point are not included in the pack. However those levels have the chance to appear in the WIP NL community pack currently being maintained by Icho. It hasn't been released yet, as there's still a lot of things that haven't been decided yet, such as how many levels per rank and I believe even the number of ranks. I'll need to check that topic again!
Historically, there have been several versions of the pack released. There's the first one made for Lemmini, which I completed earlier this year after almost 5 years once I was finally able to figure out the final level! Before that, I was terribly stuck on a Bonus level of Gronkling's, "Mystery Machine," for years until I had a tip-off from him from last year on Discord that the glitch required is listed in the Lemmini glitch topic. It was something that I've never ever seen before, as I wouldn't ever expect that behavior from the floater skill, as well as my stubbornness when it comes to figuring out levels on my own and hence I don't like hints/spoilers on the solution. Thus, as a Lemmings player, I'm willing to stay stuck for however long it takes until I figure out the solution for myself. In contrast, I wasn't stuck on the final level for anywhere near as long as Gronkling's glitch level of the Bonus rank.
After the Lemmini version, there has also been a Lemmix version, and, if I'm not mistaken, an Old Formats NL version of the pack. I haven't seen all of the pack on these yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if the ordering has been drastically changed from the Lemmini version. In addition, as Lemmini glitches either work differently on Lemmix or been eliminated in the case of NL the Bonus rank was eliminated for these engines, as it was a rank exclusive to the Lemmini version and most required a Lemmini-specific glitch to solve. Thus, I believe the Lemmix/Old Formats NL versions only have 180 levels rather than 210 like in the Lemmini version, but I could be wrong there about the former.
In contrast to these 3 versions, the New Formats NL version has 240 levels across 6 ranks of 40 levels each. Thus, there are many more extra levels, many of which I've never ever seen before. This is definitely what makes it very exciting for me to LP the pack, though there's also plenty of excitement from seeing familiar levels again after so long as well. I had recorded all my solutions to the Lemmini version from almost about 1.5 years ago now, so definitely enough time has passed so that even some of the ones I've played before I couldn't quite remember how to solve for a time. So far, I've been enjoying myself a lot in my LP!
Picnic Rank FeedbackLots of X-of-everything levels here and hence it definitely reminded me of Lemmings Plus I after a while of encountering so many of them in this rank. Here, I think I remember several levels here being quite difficult in their original form but maybe their difficulty was intentionally reduced by making them an X-of-everything level in order to create a nice, easy Picnic rank level. For example, I recognized Akseli's level "Himalayan Lemmings" (Picnic 16). It's a very easy X-of-everything level here, but Iin its original Lemmix/Custlemm form, I haven't solved the level yet, though it's mostly because I didn't spend too much time with it. As a matter of fact, on his 10-level Dos pack, I've only solved 2 out of the 10 levels. The rest I haven't attempted yet and hence I don't know how very hard they are, though I do know several of them use glitches. Also, I believe the level has a different title there, but I could be wrong.
Another good example: Pieuw's level "Surrealism" (Picnic 10). I'm sure this level was called "Utopia," and it was in the Armageddon rank on Lemmini, but here it's been made into an easy X-of-everything.
Other examples: Picnic 7 -
Snowy Caves by Eymerich (Ellischant), which I remember being far harder, and IIRC is in Crane's Holiday pack for Old Formats
My solution to the Lemmini version of the level of the pack:
https://youtu.be/Pb6-k1e3wLYPicnic 15 -
Patience, Young Grasshopper by Yawg, which I believe was in the third rank on Lemmini and much harder as well
My solution to the Lemmini version of the level:
https://youtu.be/O2-dqxYpv18Picnic 18 -
Crystal Caves by Crane. Like him, I definitely prefer the 100% version instead of this beefed down and easier one!
It's quite a nice challenge in itself, and I would definitely be for putting that into the pack instead, maybe in the second rank just like in the Lemmini version.My solution to the 100% version on Lemmini:
https://youtu.be/-hZNdbk9HSoGeoo's level Picnic 23 -
Canopy Lemmings, I played Turrican's Superlemmini version of the level in its original form earlier this year. There, the digger mechanic works differently that allowed me to backroute the level, but I was told by Turrican that it doesn't work on the NL version. However, it doesn't matter, at least for this X-of-everything version, since it's easier than it should be.
The difficulty of the Picnic rank here definitely seems to be much better organized rather than being wonky and all over the place like in the Lemmini version. There's still a few levels that feel out of place, such as
Picnic 30 -
Crossing Paths by Shvegait.
This means I'm in complete agreement with both Crane and Proxima here that this level is hard for the first rank. I checked the Lemmini version after reading their posts, and the level is around the halfway point of the third rank, Frenzy. So, I too am confused about why mobius made the drastic change to put it in the first rank here
Now, I don't know if they got the revelation of the level being difficult from my playthrough, as I struggled with this one for a while in my LP, but something tells me it's from their own experience of remembering and playing and solving the level on their own rather than gathering it's a hard level from my LP.
Interestingly enough, I ended up solving the level the exact same way on both Lemmini and the New Formats NL versions! I vaguely remember using such a solution shown in my LP, so I got confused why I couldn't get the solution to work. Indeed, it still works, but it's far harder to make it work here than on Lemmini due to the way the RR system works on the engines. For comparison, here's my solution to the level on the Lemmini version:
https://youtu.be/JwPF07NP8zc. Notice that RR changes take effect right away on Lemmini, meaning for example at a 80RR you can get two lemmings closer together than at this RR by maxing out the RR anytime before the second lemming appears. Thus, it's much easier to create the spacing you want on Lemmini!
I checked the intended solution after solving, and indeed it's a far easier solution than mine. However, regardless of how you solve the level, the solution is very difficult to see here. Thus, this increases the difficulty significantly and I would still move it out of the first rank!
Another one I feel is hard and out of place for the first rank: Picnic 32 -
Turn it Around! by t3tesla. I played the level a bit in pre-testing earlier in this year before the pack's release but I didn't get it solved at the time (too much going on in my life at the time). I did figure out how to solve the level, but the high RR increases the difficulty significantly, as well as the very tricky
builder wall to figure out and then making a turn around point, though I haven't checked if this is intended, and I have to guess that my solution isn't exactly intended due to having a builder remaining.
As a result, this might work better as an early second rank or even third rank level even though I didn't struggle with this one anywhere near as long as Picnic 30. These are also quite close to one another in the pack.
Finally, Picnic 36 -
Through the Liquidizer. Even though you're only given bashers here, this is quite a big step up in difficulty and very harsh for the first rank even though it's near the end of it. At least in my solution, it doesn't really allow any room for error, though it's likely I simply made it far harder than it needs to be, as I barely met the unusually low save requirement. I definitely remember playing this level from all those years ago and being very frustrated when solving it because of how Dos mechanics are. Here in NL, it's not as frustrating to execute, but perhaps it can still arise due to having to constantly tweak minor things in the solution so that it works.
My favorites of the rank: Picnic 28 -
A Cold Day in Heck by Mikau Schekzen (it's in his pack on Lemmini), Picnic 31 -
Crossing the Chasm by Gronkling, Picnic 32, Picnic 33 -
EMERGENCY by Dragon's Lover, Picnic 35 -
It's eight-hero time! by geoo and Clam, Picnic 37 -
Brick City by Gronkling, and Picnic 38 -
LEMTRIS by Minim. I'm sure Picnic 31 and Picnic 38 were also in the Lemmini version, though they're not first rank levels there, I think.
Devious Rank FeedbackThis is a rank name change from the Lemmini version, as it was called Hootenanny there. A lot of great levels here too! Especially the new ones that I haven't seen before! The final stretch of 10 levels or so felt easier than some of the ones near the start or middle of the rank, though.
Devious 1 -
Private Room Without Room (Dragon's Lover) Excellent puzzle to start off the rank and a favorite of mine!
Devious 2 -
Lemming Efficiency Plan (Dragon's Lover) Another favorite of mine from Dragon's Lover!
I feel I've seen these two levels before, but where I can't recall.
Devious 3 -
Crossing Paths part 2 (Minim) Nice builders and bashers only level. I definitely remember this one. The title here confuses me though, as it has absolutely no relation to Shevgait's Picnic 30 level from the previous rank
I checked the Lemmini version, and it's just called "The Crossing" there, which I believe is the original title.
Devious 4 -
The Barfmaster (Mikau Schekzen I think I remember the exit part from the pack on Lemmini, but otherwise it's only vaguely familiar to me.
Devious 5 -
Clever Mining (Hubert and Bart) A bit challenging but still nice level. I did do some unnecessary things in my solution, though. Don't think I've ever played it, though it does look familiar to me for some reason.
Devious 6 -
All Over the Place (Minim) Another favorite of mine, and I do believe this one is in one of his holiday packs for Lemmix, which I have played.
Devious 7 -
Sculpture Maze (Tumble Weed) Looks difficult, but it's easier than it appears. I like how it's a 1-of-everything level.
Devious 8 -
The Electric Wild Ride (JHIsan) Yet another level that looks hard but again easier than it appears. Excellent puzzle! I especially like how the placement of the splatform for the top entrance really matters here!
Devious 9 -
Think about it(Minim) Another great 1-of-everything level. Bit challenging but the right difficulty I feel for early in the rank.
Devious 10 -
Think again! (weirdy beardy) Another favorite and if I'm not mistaken is the second rank finisher on Lemmini. I really like the bashing and then letting one get by to climb over the wall to forge the rest of the path before releasing them with builders in the end.
Devious 11 -
Cry for Me (Isu) Haven't seen this one before. Nice level. Not hard but not easy either. Again just the right difficulty for the rank.
Devious 12 -
Tower of Ice (Minim) I think I've seen this one before, but where I can't recall. Nice 2-of-everything level. Somewhat challenging but again the right difficulty for this rank.
Devious 13 -
Inside the Pyramid (Gronkling) Another favorite of mine. Easy level and certainly one of his easiest as I know he's known for glitch and very hard levels.
Devious 14 -
Eight Little Problems (Isu) This level reminds me of a Nepsterlems level in the second rank, where I believe it's possible to ignore an entrance and still be able to solve the level. Here, this one looks hard for a 1-of-everything level, and it is. I do wonder if it was intentional to have two complete freebies on the very far right entrance, as they can simply fall down and walk to the exit without you having to spend a skill at all
This seems like a design error, quite honestly. In addition, this level also has somewhat of a misleading design, where the last two lemmings don't drop out where the first two do, which was totally unexpected.
Devious 15 -
The Underground Secret (BulletRide) I definitely remember this level from him. It's not one of his hardest, but it can still be tricky. I remember being surprised at reading how some people had difficulty with this level on Lemmini. I think I can see why, though, if it's intended to use the basher staircase by interrupting midstroke with a builder. I think the level is a bit different in the design, but I could very well be remembering wrong.
Devious 16 -
Don't Leave Me Hanging! (BulletRide) Another great level by him. I checked the Lemmini version, and it is Bonus 2 there. The change here is that instead of two climbers, you only get 1 but you also have a blocker. The only reason I can think of for changing the skillset for this version is because it's quite a leap to come up with a blocker can cancel a digger trick even though it works here too and hence this was made to be a bit easier by giving two climbers instead. I like both solutions either way here.
Devious 17 -
Keep it Simple (Ben Bryant) I feel as if I've seen this level before even though I'm certain I haven't played levels by him before. Then again, I might had, I simply didn't realized they were Ben Bryant levels on Lemmini if there are any, for example. I don't know anything about him. As the title suggests, this isn't as hard as it looks. I do have plenty of skills left over.
Devious 18 -
Messy routes... (geoo) Yet another level that looks hard and it is somewhat for a 1-of-everything skillset. I have to suspect there are still multiple solutions here despite it. Certainly not one of geoo's pretty landscapes, but then again I think the title here is him simply admitting it. At the same time, when I first started making levels I was the exact same way with my layouts not looking great. We all have to start somewhere when first starting out
Devious 19 -
Builderless Work (Minim) I absolutely love builderless levels a lot, and hence this is definitely one of my favorites. I really like the solution here! It can be hard, but one just needs to observe that to reach the exit you need to come from above to avoid the miner tunnel you make to get the crowd up in the first place.
Devious 20 -
Blood Furnace (timfoxxy) I definitely remember this level for the level pack on Lemmini. Difficulty is just right for the rank.
Devious 21 -
Delimiter (Ben Bryant) Nice level but one in which I overcomplicated the solution due to not using the digger. Looks great.
Devious 22 -
Karoshi Factory (Mikau Schekzen I'm sure this is a backroute, as I think I remember the solution being far more elegant than this when I played the level on Lemmini.
Devious 23 -
Hypothermia (Fleech) I would say this level is hard for its position. I think I remember playing this level before, but I couldn't remember how to solve the level, as I ended up struggling for a while. When I did figure out the solution, I think I vaguely remember using a blocker to turn the second climber at the top, so I don't know why I completely overlooked something as simple as that. Then again, I have thought about doing so, I just simply had the wrong idea of how the crowds would get up to the exit with the way I was placing the miner. Great level if I do say so myself, but yea, it would probably work better either later in the rank or even as a third rank level.
Devious 24 -
Ball Pit (Nortaneous) I definitely remember this level, but where I've seen it I can't recall either. Fortunately, there's still a lot of leeway here, so it's not too tight on the execution of the solution.
Devious 25 -
Theory of a Dead Lem (t3tesla) Somewhat hard but it isn't too bad. I kept thinking to send the right crowd to the left over the top. I don't know if my solution is intended, though.
Devious 26 -
Not Quite... (t3tesla) Yet another level I feel I've seen somewhere and have played before, but I don't know if that's true or not. Hard level with a very nice red herring at the bottom and difficult to find solution. With the skillset, it should had made me automatically reject building over each gap in the floor, but nope. Very nice level with a great solution! One of my favorites. Does feel a bit hard for its position, but it does seem right for the second of the rank.
Devious 27 -
none effort (Lars Rudinger) Easier than some of the previous levels, though maybe it's still hard to see the ceiling route here, so perhaps not. I've never heard of this designer's name before
Devious 28 -
Martyrdom (TOG) Very easy level which was a super quick solve for me. Once more, another author that I've never heard of.
Devious 29 -
A stitch in time saves nine... (Shvegait) Somewhat hard level for a 1-of-everything. My solution looks like a backroute even though I use all the skills and is quite hackish, though this can easily be changed to not use the floater.
Devious 30 -
Through the Oven Door (weirdy beardy) Nice level, definitely reminds me of "And now, the end is near" due to sending out a worker to bash out the crowd from the side and getting under the steel. There appears to be a design error with the flamethrower at the top left. Seems the intention is to block the builder placement there and hence the trap is misplaced.
Devious 31 -
City of Satan (Nortaneous) Quite easy for its position even though it looks hard.
Devious 32 -
Lemming Dynasty (Minim) Somewhat hard, but still a nice level. It's not easy to figure out the route, and the climber might prove to be problematic in the later stages of the level.
Devious 33 -
Honest Mistake (Ben Bryant) Excellent level and another favorite of mine. I especially like how you must build the crowd out to release them before the climber comes back to build on top of the dirt clump to climb over the top
Feels just right for its position.
Devious 34 -
Tree House (jammer64) Ok level, though the 99 builders does confuse me, as you don't need anywhere near that much. I'm not sure if the grass vine trap at the bottom is misplaced where I built over to avoid it. Might as well give an infinite amount, though the 99 builders is likely just simply due to where the level comes from, where it didn't allow an infinite amount of skills. I don't know where it comes from, though.
Devious 35 -
Unidentified Lemming Object (Nortaneous) Easy due to the very generous save requirement and multiple solutions available. I don't think it's possible to save everyone, but I might be wrong. I definitely remember this level on Lemmini!
Devious 36 -
A Break in the Pillar (Minim) Another one which I remember and great builderless level from Minim again. Definitely a bit harder than the earlier builderless one, but feels right for this late in the rank.
Devious 37 -
Four Lemmings and a Funeral (Fleech) I also remember this level, though I don't remember where I saw the level. It also took a bit of time for me to figure out since it's been a very long time since I last played the level. Great level with a nice solution. Once again, I especially like it's a 1-of-everything.
Devious 38 -
2 Groups, 1 Exit (Snapper the Twig) I feel as if I've seen the level before, though I've never heard of this designer as well. I do like the minimal skillset. Looks hard, but it's not too hard. Feels right for its position too.
Devious 39 -
Everyone but the bomber... (Tumble Weed) Looks hard as well but it's really not. As the title suggests, you have all the classic skills except for the bomber. I pretty much one-shot the level save for the rewinding I did. The only thing is that it isn't certain that the digger will finish before the time runs out.
Devious 40 -
Use the grey matter for this one (Minimac) Very nice level to finish off the rank even if it's not the hardest of the rank. You definitely have to think about how to go about doing the level. As I found out, doing skills in the wrong order can get you into trouble! I think I remember running into that on the Lemmini version too.
All rightie, definitely enjoying the pack a lot so far and I look forward to the many remaining challenges!
However, some remarks/replies to some earlier posts here.
I hate to be a killjoy, but I don't like how Armageddon 20 has pickup skills. I feel like it breaks the theme and feel of "Revenge of the Lemmings" being old, traditional levels with only the 8 original skills.
Thanks for the heads up, Crane!
I'm in agreement here about having pickups in a level in a pack of otherwise consisting of only classic 8 skills having no place in the pack. I recently played through Master88's first level pack, and it's the exact same way with being restricted to only classic 8 skills and no levels having pickups, though there are still some levels that use NL features, but AFAIK it only uses teleporters.
You said you won't make any more fixes, but would you possibly accept backroute fixes from the authors of the levels? The Final Countdown, for example, kind of depended slightly on the wonky steel and the Digger physics of DOS Lemmings to prevent a backroute (which is easy enough to fix for NeoLemmix).
I also agree here with authors uploading backroute fixes for his/her levels even if mobius isn't fixing them due to backroutes anymore. After all, the level belongs to the author, and especially as there's still some active users here who can fix it up
To be fair I believe Lemmings Reunion also has a level or two with pickup skills to avoid backroutes, whereas DoveLems and PimoLems have a few levels with various NeoLemmix-exclusive features for various reasons despite all of them also being older and "more traditional" packs.
You are correct, though Lemmings Reunion has several levels with pickups
In regards to DoveLems and PimoLems, in the former, I can only think of one level where a miner was replaced with a glider. In the latter, several of the levels were originally glitch levels on Lemmini, and because glitches are eliminated on NL, they had to be adapted in order to be solvable. For example, Stormy 20 uses a preplaced lemming, while a level in the Pickaxe rank and a different one in the One rank both have the walker skill available.
I really don't want to tread on anyone's toes here, but since mobius has declined to make further updates, I volunteer to take over maintenance of this pack. In my opinion, it really should continue to receive updates, since it is a unique showcase of the best of the community's early years. I think mobius has done great work on the pack, but it clearly isn't finished yet -- some levels could stand to have backroute fixes, as Crane suggests, and another pair of eyes could help with inclusion and ordering decisions -- for instance, I am baffled by how the very tricky "Crossing Paths" ended up in the first rank.
I was surprised to see "Crossing Paths" appear in the first rank too - it makes me wonder if there's a backroute. It also reminds me that different people find different levels harder than others, since a lot of it is down to luck in how quickly we see the solution.
Yup, I agree with both of you gentlemen completely on how Picnic 30 is a big jump in difficulty. The solution in general is just very difficult to spot. In addition, I provided a link to the solution I use on Lemmini, which is also ultimately the same way I solved the NL version here. However, my solution is easier to pull off on Lemmini than on NL due to the different RR mechanics the engines use. Even then, I am for moving this level out of the first rank and maybe into the third rank like it is on Lemmini, in the Frenzy rank. Definitely doesn't belong in the Picnic rank.
However, I am in a better place in my life now and I am sure I could help put together a new version, with community input so that it can be the definitive final version, in time for kaywhyn's last LP of 2013.
That was 9 years ago, and I had absolutely no LP videos of any kind on my YT channel in the 2010s
If you meant 2023 instead, I would say don't worry about when I'll have my final LP of that year and to go at your own pace rather than setting a deadline to get it all together ready for release by December 2023, which is likely when my final LP will be for that year anyway. However, I do see the value of at least setting some kind of deadline so that it could at least maybe force one to get moving on the project and that it's perfectly fine to revise deadlines later on if necessary. In addition, I will likely not go through the revised edition of RotL once I finish my LP of the current state of the pack
Besides, there's also the NL community pack maintained by Icho, which will likely be a while as well, seeing how plenty of things about it are still undecided.you (or anyone) is welcome to take over.
Would it be okay for me to have a go at this?
Honestly, I myself thought about maybe helping out with the pack or even outright taking over the project at times when mobius was still putting it together, as I have done some level pack conversions for both SuperLemmini and NL before RotL v4.0's release. However, I do realize that it's a gargantuan task requiring plenty of decision making, such as how many levels per rank, how many ranks should there be, etc. Most importantly, looking around online for suitable replacement levels as well and deciding what to include/not include in the pack. Even then, I think I still be fine with doing all of that, with of course some assistance along the way with, say, testing and backroute fixing, wherever necessary
