Author Topic: Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini  (Read 438 times)

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Offline Minim

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Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini
« on: August 24, 2020, 12:21:28 pm »
Hello everyone.

I've noticed SuperLemmini has received some significant activity within the past few weeks. 8-) Well, there are certainly more available levels now than last year! I wonder if there is enough interest to revive the Level Solving Contest? I haven't downloaded this engine for a long time. Post your thoughts below!

The rules as to how this competition is planned to work have been modified specifically for this engine. I've also decided to add geoo's original suggestion for multi- level packs if we need to.

* The engine that must be used is SuperLemmini, because some of its mechanics are noticeably different to NeoLemmix and Lix.
* The aim is simple: Just solve the level; or if there are multiple levels in a pack, solve as many as you can.
* The competitive part is to try and solve it/them within either the fastest time, or the fewest skills. The total Lemmings saved factor could also be prioritised depending on competitive viability. Would a maximum requirement reduce the number of viable solutions to a level?
* I'm not sure if SuperLemmini has an "auto-save level solutions" kind of button, so make sure you save some replays of your efforts!
* The process to submit results is similar to Family Feud. Upload your best replay to the host's personal messages box, not on the thread. Just to remind the guests that you need to be logged in to send PMs.
* The competition's playing phase will be open for let's say two weeks. After a fortnight expires the user's best result will be displayed on a leaderboard.
* If the revival gains popularity the winner of the tournament gets to choose the next level for a competition, or nominate someone else to. Otherwise this would be just for bragging rights.

Below are some example levels off the top of my head which I think are not too hard but have enough variety in the skillset to deserve competition. Once I get SL working then I'll have a look at other packs and expand this list. I also wonder that because this engine doesn't have a related editor, what does everyone use to edit levels in SL?

* Fun 29: Worra lorra lemmings
* Tricky 10: There's a lot of them about
* Tricky 11: Lemmings in the attic
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline WillLem

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Re: Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini
« Reply #1 on: September 06, 2020, 10:21:55 pm »
I'd definitely be interested in getting involved with this. It might be worth waiting until Tsyu makes another appearance though because last time he posted regarding SL, he mentioned a possible update with some proposed new features (such as a "classic" mode which may re-introduce timed bombers).

Since this will undoubtedly affect the gameplay and make for a more significantly different challenge, it may be worth waiting to see if/when the update will materialise.

EDIT: That said, Tsyu is very rarely on here so if other players are interested and want to get going with it, I'll certainly keep an eye on the challenge.

Offline namida

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Re: Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2020, 06:51:28 am »
Quote
Since this will undoubtedly affect the gameplay and make for a more significantly different challenge

Not really - the only difference it will make is that you can't make a lemming bomb in the first 5 seconds after it spawns. Everything else is just execution difficulty; it doesn't affect what solutions are or aren't actually possible.

Online ericderkovits

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Re: Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2020, 09:15:40 am »
Hello everyone.

I've noticed SuperLemmini has received some significant activity within the past few weeks. 8-) Well, there are certainly more available levels now than last year!

I wonder why there's been more activity the last few weeks and why are there more levels now than last year in Superlemmini?

Online ericderkovits

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Re: Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2020, 09:16:25 am »
How's that Kaywhyn?

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2020, 09:23:55 am »
Perfect! :thumbsup: To make sure the post comes out the way I want it to, I click on "preview." That way, if there's anything that isn't right, I can at least edit my post some more before I "post." You can even see that you yourself did it correctly because of the blue box that appears in your post with "quote" above it. Now that you know how to do that, spoilers work the exact same way, except the word "spoiler" is in the two brackets instead, with the second one also having the forward slash. I know you were trying to get it to work in your post on the NL Sublems thread. Or, you just click on the circle icon with the black and yellow triangles and then you type in anything in between the spoiler brackets that you want to be hidden from view unless the person clicks on "click to show/hide."

Online ericderkovits

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Re: Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2020, 09:47:20 am »
I also wonder that because this engine doesn't have a related editor, what does everyone use to edit levels in SL?



I Use editor 1.43n-C to edit Superlemmini levels. I just make sure all the styles that you want to use are in the styles folder under Superlemmini. I edited many Reunion and Pimolems levels using this editor

Offline Minim

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Re: Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2020, 04:56:31 pm »
Hello everyone.

I've noticed SuperLemmini has received some significant activity within the past few weeks. 8-) Well, there are certainly more available levels now than last year!

I wonder why there's been more activity the last few weeks and why are there more levels now than last year in Superlemmini?

I think one of the reasons is because the required WinLemm files were very hard to get unless you bought Windows Lemmings. I couldn't find the related files while I downloaded SL. That was until Kaywhyn made a post about it recently here. It's great to hear that the extraction still works.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline namida

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Re: Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2020, 09:56:52 pm »
Hello everyone.

I've noticed SuperLemmini has received some significant activity within the past few weeks. 8-) Well, there are certainly more available levels now than last year!

I wonder why there's been more activity the last few weeks and why are there more levels now than last year in Superlemmini?

I think one of the reasons is because the required WinLemm files were very hard to get unless you bought Windows Lemmings. I couldn't find the related files while I downloaded SL. That was until Kaywhyn made a post about it recently here. It's great to hear that the extraction still works.

Lemmini was very popular as a custom content platform back in its day, and it also required the WinLemm files, so I doubt that's it.

I think it more comes down to that there isn't really a niche that SuperLemmini fills. High resolution? Lix has always had this covered, and nowdays NeoLemmix has a high-res mode too. Gameplay mechanics? SuperLemmini takes an awkward middle ground where it resembles the originals and simulates some glitches but doesn't try to be exact - those who want exact have classic Lemmix (or even modern Lemmix, which is straying a bit from "exact" but is still much closer than SuperLemmini - and I'll note modern Lemmix doesn't seem to be doing any better than SuperLemmini, at any rate), those who prefer environments that are (or at least, aim to be) glitch-free have, again, NeoLemmix and Lix. And for those who want features not present in the original, SuperLemmini has a very small number (with vertical scrolling being the only one that comes to mind that doesn't mostly just enable troll levels, which aren't very popular), whereas Lix has a few more and NeoLemmix has heaps.

Then add on to that the editor situation - SuperLemmini has never had a dedicated editor. There's two approaches - use an extremely old NeoLemmix editor, which only has partial support for SuperLemmini features; or produce the levels in modern NeoLemmix format then use SuperLemmini to convert them (in which case, you've had to make a NeoLemmix pack in the process, so it's counter-productive to then put in more effort just to convert it to an engine where you'd get less of an audience) - and that again doesn't support every SuperLemmini feature.

At more of a "long shot, this might not quite be right" guess, there's also the "dogfooding" effect. Tsyu has put plenty of work into SuperLemmini itself, but hasn't really made any original content for it. By comparison, NeoLemmix initially came to popularity through the use of it in my own packs - I constantly released my own content for NeoLemmix, which gave people something to play and familiarize themself with the engine. From memory, the first full pack by anyone other than myself was GigaLems; at the time it was released, I'd released Lemmings Plus III + its bonus pack, Lemmings Plus IV, Lemmings Plus Omega and Holiday Lemmings Plus all for NeoLemmix, as well as updated the (originally for Lemmix) Lemmings Plus I and II to it. This may have gone some way to showing "hey, this is a very viable platform for custom content".

Offline WillLem

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Re: Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini
« Reply #9 on: September 08, 2020, 08:39:31 pm »
I think it more comes down to that there isn't really a niche that SuperLemmini fills.

Its primary audience seems to be players who want to play the classic game but with more modern features on a Windows machine. Previously, such players had Windows Lemmings, but this has long been a relatively obsolete incarnation of the game, and was never really ideal given its clunky interface, dodgy mechanics and poorly-implemented MIDI music. That said, the fact it's still talked about shows that it has its place (I'd suggest mostly due to its graphics and the simple fact it's an official Windows product published by DMA/Psygnosis).

SuperLemmini is essentially a vastly improved version of Windows Lemmings: it uses WinLemm graphics, but packages them in a better interface with more features (such as specific level information, the ability to load custom levels, framestepping, replays, and a FF that actually works!)

Mechanics-wise, it seems to be modelled on Amiga, which also makes it a better choice than Windows Lemmings. Why not just play on an Amiga emulator? Because then you don't get the graphic/features upgrades that SL provides.

It also uses Amiga music, which provides players with a more familiar, nostalgic experience (which, again, is likely to be the reason most players discover it initially).

Granted, it's a very small niche, but if someone were to ask me "what's the best way to play Lemmings on a Windows machine?" I'd say SuperLemmini for classic Lemmings, and NeoLemmix for modern Lemmings. And I'd advise them to get both and see them as mutually exclusive products rather than competing products.

In a way, SuperLemmini is a good gateway to NeoLemmix from (perhaps) DOS/Amiga and (certainly) Windows versions of the game. It introduces framestepping, use of replays and custom content whilst keeping the general gameplay (and, of course, skillset) more familiar. This gives players a way to get accustomed to a more modern way of playing the game before trying out NeoLemmix, which is - let's face it - much more advanced and more philosophically different in gameplay terms.

As and when SL gets an option for timed bombers, this will become even more true. I'd still recommend all modern players have both SuperLemmini and NeoLemmix - one for classic play, one for modern. There will always be players who prefer one over the other, but it's great that we all have the choice of both worlds!

Online ericderkovits

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Re: Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini
« Reply #10 on: October 18, 2020, 05:18:36 am »
yes, Willem, I think you, me and kaywhyn are the few people who still like Superlemmini. This is also a reason I made a lot of Superlemmini packs available that I converted from regular Lemmini. My Superlemmi packs probably are more numerous than anybody's. I think I have every one that is listed in the Superlemmini board and Levels for other engines board(including mine and others). I still though need to get my few packs that I need to play to get the replays(ie holiday ones, ohno ones)

Although if there were a contest, I would probably be in last place as my puzzle-solving abilitiy is very bad. But I am good at converting them to Superlemmini. Also even good at converting neolemmix ones such as putting Vamprince lemmings together that Mantha16 converted to nl format(-2 levels) with the help of Kaywhyn and Gigalems to new formats even from 1.43 using Namida's NXPextractor..

Also I didn't realize Flopsy would have an issue with the MegaSebbytes conversion(which actually wasn't a conversion-all I didn't was take the new format levels from Seblems and reorganized them to match the old format ones of MegaSebbytes). He is the only one to have an issue with it. Technically I could have not even converted Reunion from Lemmini to Superlemmini, but Icho is a cool guy and he said he had no problem with it)

Also I always give credit to the author when converting Nl packs. I just want them to be played with the most up-to-date formats. But I won't be converting any more old NL format ones mainly because it's too much effort and also I don't want to do so anymore without permission. The Gigalems pack was just too time consuming(not really difficult though).
« Last Edit: October 18, 2020, 09:59:29 pm by ericderkovits »

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: Proposal: Level Solving Contest for SuperLemmini
« Reply #11 on: October 18, 2020, 06:20:27 pm »
The audience for Superlemmini is definitely much smaller than NL, but it's still there. Even after having acquainted myself with NL for over a year now, SL still remains my preferred engine of choice for playing. Nevertheless, I have definitely grown fond and am thankful for some of the NL convenience tools, such as skill shadows and going back to the last skill assignment. Even then, I try not to rely on them too much when playing, particularly since you don't have them in SL and the only one you do have is framestepping forward.