Author Topic: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini  (Read 3484 times)

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Offline Ron_Stard

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I've attached here replays of what I consider several "bugs" (?) I've encountered while playing some levels in SuperLemmini:

Lemming trapped in "Scaling the heights" (Oh No! More Lemmings!)
Climber that crosses through bridge in "Have a nice day" (Sega Genesis Lemmings, but probably also in Original Lemmings)
Blocker that doesn't block on (descending to the left) steep path in "Valley Of Fire" (Van Clan Lemmings)
Builder that doesn't build at the very (left) edge on "Up, Down or Round and Round" (it's possible to build a bridge one step beyond when facing right, as seen on the replay)
-In Mazulems 16 ("It's a Magical World"), the "magic trick" no longer works on SuperLemmini. I don't know if this trick works on Amiga, but since Mazulems was composed in the late MS-DOS days, I assume that it will work on MS-DOS.
-Hail 6 ("Surprise Package?") it's very hard to solve with the % required. On Amiga and/or DOS, it's fairly easy even to surpass the objective.

What do you think about these... "bugs"?
« Last Edit: April 28, 2020, 09:35:10 PM by Ron_Stard »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #1 on: April 21, 2020, 03:12:22 PM »
Thanks for reporting these Ron_Stard. My best guesses for each:

Lemming trapped in "Scaling the heights" (Oh No! More Lemmings!)

This one's quite a common glitch that happens in a lot of early versions of Lemmings. Assigning a Climber to a stuck lemming can free them, as can using a destructive skill, of course.

I'm not sure this one's a bug - I'm guessing Tsyu has purposely left this in as a glitch as it's part of Amiga physics, and I'm fairly sure that SuperLemmini models Amiga physics quite closely. I could be wrong about this, though.

Climber that crosses through bridge in "Have a nice day"

If the builder bridge is started on the very edge such that the pixels only just overlap, Climbers are able to climb through it. Again, this is something that happens in Amiga Lemmings as well. See this video of my playthrough of Postcard From Lemmingland - I cancelled the attempt due to this happening (link is at the correct point in the video).

Again, this is possibly something that has been left in purposefully (but maybe not).

Blocker that doesn't block on (descending to the left) steep path in "Valley Of Fire"

This one's definitely not a bug. Blockers have two trigger areas (one for each hand), with a gap in between where the Blocker's body is:



The example you've given is quite normal, and happens particularly on steep slopes when one of the Blocker's trigger areas is past the edge of the sloping terrain: the lemmings can walk over and through the Blocker the same as when they fall through a Blocker from directly above:


Note that the Blocker's right-side trigger is past the edge of the terrain, and so will have no effect on the lemming walking down the slops. The left trigger, however, connects with the slope and so will stop lemmings walking up the slope.

Builder that doesn't build at the very (left) edge on "Up, Down or Round and Round" (it's possible to build a bridge one step beyond when facing right, as seen on the replay)

After testing, I can confirm that this happens on the Amiga as well, and also in WinLemm: left-facing builders overlap an edge by at least 2px, whereas right-facing builders can overlap by just 1px.

It'll depend on whether or not Tsyu has purposefully left the first two in as faithful recreations of Amiga physics as to whether or not these things get fixed, and the third is, in fact, standard Lemmings physics.

Hope this helps.
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 08:41:16 PM by WillLem »

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #2 on: April 21, 2020, 05:14:46 PM »
Thank you for your responses, WillLem. I don't know very well if Amiga physics are the same as MS-DOS and Lemmix/Vanilla Lemmix (by Vanilla I suppose people refer to EricLang Lemmix). I have to play these Lemmings levels in Amiga and also in MS-DOS in order to confirm the "bugs". But as I mentioned, they seem strange to me.

By the way, when you talk about WinLemm, you mean Lemmings 95 or WinLems?

[ Link for the second one: https://github.com/warrengalyen/WinLems ]
« Last Edit: April 21, 2020, 05:44:45 PM by Ron_Stard »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #3 on: April 21, 2020, 08:34:21 PM »
Builder that doesn't build at the very (left) edge on "Up, Down or Round and Round" (it's possible to build a bridge one step beyond when facing right, as seen on the replay)

After testing, I can confirm that this happens on the Amiga as well (and also in WinLemm, and in DOS according to namida): left-facing builders overlap an edge by at least 2px, whereas right-facing builders can overlap by just 1px.

By the way, when you talk about WinLemm, you mean Lemmings 95

Yeah, Lemmings 95 for Windows; the version whence SuperLemmini extracts its graphics.
« Last Edit: April 22, 2020, 12:03:42 AM by WillLem »

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2020, 09:34:57 PM »
Thank you for your research, WillLem!

I think I've found [another] two "bugs" (?):

-In Mazulems 16 ("It's a Magical World"), the "magic trick" no longer works on SuperLemmini. I don't know if this trick works on Amiga, but since Mazulems was composed in the late MS-DOS days, I assume that it will work on MS-DOS.
-Hail 6 ("Surprise Package?") it's very hard to solve with the % required. On Amiga and/or DOS, it's fairly easy even to surpass the objective.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #5 on: April 28, 2020, 09:42:02 PM »
-In Mazulems 16 ("It's a Magical World"), the "magic trick" no longer works on SuperLemmini.

Absence of a bug isn't a bug :P

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #6 on: April 28, 2020, 09:51:47 PM »
-In Mazulems 16 ("It's a Magical World"), the "magic trick" no longer works on SuperLemmini.

Absence of a bug isn't a bug :P

Haha, good point! But was it really a bug, or an intended behaviour?

Offline namida

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #7 on: April 28, 2020, 09:53:29 PM »
Quote
-In Mazulems 16 ("It's a Magical World"), the "magic trick" no longer works on SuperLemmini. I don't know if this trick works on Amiga, but since Mazulems was composed in the late MS-DOS days, I assume that it will work on MS-DOS.

To the best of my knowledge, this trick does work on Amiga. It definitely does work on DOS. However, it's important to keep in mind that SuperLemmini doesn't claim to exactly reproduce Amiga physics, just to be "based on" them.

Quote
-Hail 6 ("Surprise Package?") it's very hard to solve with the % required. On Amiga and/or DOS, it's fairly easy even to surpass the objective.

I suspect this may be that to accomodate SL's double resolution while keeping a similar feel, it also doubles the frame rate - but keeps "one lemming starts counting down per frames". If SL actually wants to keep the original feel here, it should be "start a countdown once every two frames". However, this isn't really a "bug", just a physics difference that Tsyu may or may not want to adjust. Probably not a bad idea to adjust the level a bit (perhaps by doubling the lemming count?) to accomodate if he decides not to change the physics, though.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #8 on: April 28, 2020, 10:33:10 PM »
Has anyone heard from Tsyu recently?

Offline Tsyu

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2020, 06:56:09 AM »
Lemming trapped in "Scaling the heights" (Oh No! More Lemmings!)
I'll investigate this a bit further, but I think this can happen in the Amiga version. Basically, the game checks only a few pixels (one pixel at the feet and two at the head in the original game) to determine whether the builder has hit a wall or ceiling, and if the builder is deep enough in the ground (seven pixels in the original game) when it stops building, it will get stuck.

Climber that crosses through bridge in "Have a nice day" (Sega Genesis Lemmings, but probably also in Original Lemmings)
As WillLem showed, this can happen in the Amiga version too.

Blocker that doesn't block on (descending to the left) steep path in "Valley Of Fire" (Van Clan Lemmings)
WillLem explained this well.

Builder that doesn't build at the very (left) edge on "Up, Down or Round and Round" (it's possible to build a bridge one step beyond when facing right, as seen on the replay)
Yeah, the brick positions for left- and right-facing builders aren't symmetrical, even in the original games. (I will still try this level in the Amiga version to see whether that also requires two builders for that gap.)

-In Mazulems 16 ("It's a Magical World"), the "magic trick" no longer works on SuperLemmini. I don't know if this trick works on Amiga, but since Mazulems was composed in the late MS-DOS days, I assume that it will work on MS-DOS.
You mean what the climber does here?

https://youtu.be/D6Ren_bMVcU?list=PL16FA900A49F71C61&t=67

What's happening here is the climber moves away from the wall by at least a pixel when it hits a ceiling, which I'm pretty sure happens only in some versions of the game and not the Amiga version. (I will still check it, just in case.)

-Hail 6 ("Surprise Package?") it's very hard to solve with the % required. On Amiga and/or DOS, it's fairly easy even to surpass the objective.
Yes, I just verified that the level is indeed difficult in SuperLemmini. I need to investigate this further. (And the game does nuke each lemming every two frames as it should [I just verified this], so that's not the problem.)

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2020, 12:55:08 PM »

You mean what the climber does here?

https://youtu.be/D6Ren_bMVcU?list=PL16FA900A49F71C61&t=67

What's happening here is the climber moves away from the wall by at least a pixel when it hits a ceiling, which I'm pretty sure happens only in some versions of the game and not the Amiga version. (I will still check it, just in case.)


Yes, that trick. namida mentioned this also happens in Amiga. However, I didn't test it yet. An obvious and quick way to verify this is playing Amiga Fun 11 in an emulator, and see if this trick works in both walls of the level. I can check it later.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2020, 01:21:11 PM by Ron_Stard »

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2020, 01:10:21 PM »
hi Tysu finally heard something from you. How's the update on Superlemmini going? Me and WillLem finally were talking about you.

Offline Ron_Stard

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2020, 04:10:58 PM »

You mean what the climber does here?

https://youtu.be/D6Ren_bMVcU?list=PL16FA900A49F71C61&t=67

What's happening here is the climber moves away from the wall by at least a pixel when it hits a ceiling, which I'm pretty sure happens only in some versions of the game and not the Amiga version. (I will still check it, just in case.)


Yes, that trick. namida mentioned this also happens in Amiga. However, I didn't test it yet. An obvious and quick way to verify this is playing Amiga Fun 11 in an emulator, and see if this trick works in both walls of the level. I can check it later.

I tested it on that level and yes, that trick works on both directions.

Offline Tsyu

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2020, 08:52:12 AM »
I said that I would investigate some of these bugs, so I did. Here's what I found:

Lemming trapped in "Scaling the heights" (Oh No! More Lemmings!)
I checked the Amiga version, and I couldn't get the lemming stuck there. This probably is a consequence of the higher resolution.

I don't know how to solve this without making something else harder or even impossible. For instance, changing the builder's upper collision check to be one pixel further out may fix this, while making it harder to build up to a wall without leaving a gap.

-In Mazulems 16 ("It's a Magical World"), the "magic trick" no longer works on SuperLemmini. I don't know if this trick works on Amiga, but since Mazulems was composed in the late MS-DOS days, I assume that it will work on MS-DOS.
I just checked the Amiga version: The lemming does indeed move away from the wall by an extra pixel upon reaching a ceiling. I've changed SuperLemmini to do the same (albeit by two pixels to account for the higher resolution).

-Hail 6 ("Surprise Package?") it's very hard to solve with the % required. On Amiga and/or DOS, it's fairly easy even to surpass the objective.
It looks like the level is just as "hard" in the Amiga version, if not just a tiny bit easier. I think the speed at which the release rate is increased, as well as when the nuke is timed, affects how many lemmings you will save. (Using the one blocker to better consolidate the crowd can also help.)

However, in the DOS version, I typically save many more lemmings (at least 10% more), and I know why. As you know, if a bomber's timer runs out while the bomber is on the ground, it will enter an "oh-no" state before exploding. What's interesting is what happens if the timer lapses while the lemming is exiting, which (as you might expect) is fairly common in this level. In the Amiga version (and in SuperLemmini), the lemming will enter the "oh no" state and then explode, without trying to exit the level again. In the DOS version, however, the lemming enters the "oh no" state for one frame and then exits the level, doing so successfully. This explains why the level is so much easier in the DOS version.

(I also found that SuperLemmini's bomber timer was a few frames too short, so I fixed it. This doesn't actually affect the difficulty of this level, though, because once the first lemming's timer lapses, the others' will lapse one by one every two frames, just as before.)

Offline Proxima

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #14 on: June 19, 2020, 11:55:55 AM »
I just checked the Amiga version: The lemming does indeed move away from the wall by an extra pixel upon reaching a ceiling. I've changed SuperLemmini to do the same (albeit by two pixels to account for the higher resolution).

Your choice, of course, but I don't agree that imitating a bug in the original games is the right decision, even if there is a custom level that exploits the bug. Levels can be edited, but a bug in the climber mechanics potentially affects every level using climbers. (And as the NeoLemmix version proves, in this particular case the level is solvable without relying on the bug.)

Offline WillLem

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #15 on: June 20, 2020, 02:36:45 AM »
Your choice, of course, but I don't agree that imitating a bug in the original games is the right decision

To be fair, I think SuperLemmini models Amiga physics for the most part, so implementing this would bring it closer to that general goal. If that is indeed Tsyu's intention for SL (the same way Lemmix was originally modelled after DOS), then I can understand why he'd want this "bug" imitated faithfully.

If I'm not wrong, I also think this is why DD isn't being considered for SuperLemmini - it was never part of Amiga physics.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #16 on: June 20, 2020, 02:51:38 AM »
There's a big difference between "where there are choices between different mechanics, go with what Amiga does" and "imitate the Amiga version, bugs and all".

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #17 on: July 29, 2020, 08:13:15 AM »
Hey Tsyu, another bug that has been observed. See attached replay. The climbers are able to climb through the ceiling and act as if there is no terrain above them when climbing. This also happens in custom level packs as well, but the one I have requires an L2 style, and so it's not going to load correctly. Is this climber behavior intentional? I highly doubt it. Credit goes to ericderkovits for discovering this, since he caught this while converting a Lemmini pack to Superlemmini.

Also another one that eric discovered, and that is a climber is still able to get over a builder wall (one where you use 3 builders stacked behind one another to create an impassable wall). However, if 4 builders are used, then it will stop a climber from getting over the builder wall. Is this intended behavior in Superlemmini as well?
« Last Edit: July 29, 2020, 07:26:24 PM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #18 on: August 04, 2020, 12:12:20 AM »
Hey Tsyu I've been converting Icholotots Lemmini version into Superlemmini. There is one  level where diggers are having trouble unblocking blockers.
In this level the solution requires this but I wonder if a blocker when trying to get released by a digger and the blocker has a foot hanging in space if he is supposed to be like that. I've spent hours on this level and could never get it to unrelease one particular blocker with a digger. Also Kaywhen mentioned the
one pixel ceiling where a climber goes thru it. also climbers are having trouble with terrain that is not thick enough like a slope against a wall where it blocked just not a huge block.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #19 on: August 04, 2020, 03:45:32 AM »
FYI eric, if possible attach a screenshot or a replay for the issues you're describing. Sometimes, it's difficult to describe what you saw in words, but pictures tend to do a much better job. After all, "a picture is worth a thousand words."

So to clarify the issue that eric is describing in the last sentence in his post, see attached screenshot. In the level, when a climber is sent out to the left at the bottom, the climber is able to climb out as if no terrain was there and hence he doesn't hit his head and fall back down and walk back to the right. This issue here seems to be equivalent to the builder wall issue, as climbers can climb out of one in Superlemmini, but adding a 4th builder layer to the builder wall will stop the climber. Correct me if I'm wrong, but a 3 builder wall is 6 or 7 pixels thick, right? Seems like that's the number of pixels or less of wall in the screenshot and hence the climber able to climb out of this wall would be equivalent to the climber able to get over a builder wall issue.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2020, 12:24:26 AM »
Another one that eric discovered. This one doesn't relate to game physics, but rather concerns loading replays. He's currently converting Pimolems to Superlemmini, but this also happened when he was converting Lemmings Reunion to Superlemmini whenever I sent him replays. Sometimes, when loading replays, the error message "the level specified in the replay does not exist" pops up (see attached screenshot). This seems to only be an issue when adding external levels. It shows up even when the external level has been added in Superlemmini. Replays included for custom packs work fine without errors. As an example, download this ini file, as well as my replay for the level The Warehouse. Surprisingly, my own replay didn't load for me, but when I sent it to eric he was able to view it just fine. Let's see if this works for anyone else who might have Superlemmini on their computer. Also, this is the very first time I encountered the error, but all other replays seem to work just fine with me. Not sure what happened that would had caused my own replay to not work.

Similarly, when I sent eric my replays for Be Lem-minded, he wasn't able to view them even with his own copy of the 316.ini file. He tried adding it again as an external level in Superlemmini, but it still didn't work. However, when I sent him my copy of the 316.ini file, the replays worked for him. So, Superlemmini seems to be very random in throwing out the error message.

So Tsyu, any idea what's going on here with Superlemmini throwing out this error?

edit: ok, eric sent me a replay for another level as well as the associated level ini file for it. The replay didn't work for me either. So, apparently no replays of his will work for me. I even tried backing up my Superlemmini directory and did the re-extraction via the .jar file to see if that would fix it, but that didn't solve the problem. What's going on here? ???

edit 2: ok, I tried another replay eric sent of another level he's currently converting to Superlemmini, and as you might expect it doesn't work for me either. This is starting to convince me that there's something wrong on my end with my Superlemmini program. I just can't figure it out. Anyone else able to view other people's replays of external levels just fine in Superlemmini?

edit 3: ok, WillLem just reported back to me and, like me, he's not able to view eric's replays of the levels too, even when the levels are added as external ones. This means either something's wrong with eric's replays (not likely), or this is simply a Superlemmini bug of how replays of external levels are handled.

edit 4: Ok, as of 1/16/21 and 1/17/21 the problem has been solved. Thanks to WillLem's unraveling of the replay text file, we were able to figure out why replays for levels added as external ones sometimes resulted in a crash. It's all due to the mismatch in the identifier information at the top of the text file. Even if it's correct, replays will sometimes fail, but in that case it's likely due to something happening in the level itself rather than the replay. So, consider this not an issue anymore. Thanks though, Tsyu :P

I've went ahead and removed the files I've attached since they don't need to be investigated anymore.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2021, 01:42:06 AM by kaywhyn »
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2020, 10:19:11 PM »
ok I think this issue with climbers climbing things they are not supposed to (ie small things like wells, signs, and crosses) should be fixed as in Regular Lemmini climbers don't climb things like
crosses, signs, and wells. So in my Superlemmini Conversions of Lemmini packs many times I have to make adjustments in the levels that involve this climber issue. Also again they can also
climb thru 1 pixel terrain which they can't do in regular Lemmini or even Neolemmix.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2020, 10:28:25 PM »
Hey eric, I've noticed that Tsyu was online a couple of days ago, so I'm wondering if he saw the most recent posts here. Since he didn't post to acknowledge this, I'm not sure. I absolutely agree with the climber issues in Superlemmini. They should not be happening at all. If Tsyu agrees and he fixes them, then you can revert the changes in the packs you converted over to Superlemmini.

Also, I don't know if I ever reported this to you, but when I sent your replay files to WillLem to test if they work for him, he also said they didn't work for him. So, it's very likely an issue with Superlemmini and how it handles replays. I doubt it's anything on your end, since your own replays work for you but for some reason they don't work for others like me and WillLem.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2020, 10:38:21 PM »
Definitely I will revert the changes in the Packs if Tsyu addresses this climber issue. For example your favorite lemmini level "Drunk levels on the way Home" and also "Disturbance in the
Matrix" where i added a builder to allow for the intended solution. If Tsyu also fixes this climber issue also with the builder wall,or even small slopes then I'll go back thru the Packs and revert the changes.
 

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2020, 10:55:28 PM »
Did I say those two levels were my favorites from the pack? Far from it! For me, I think most favorite goes to a level from a much later rank.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2020, 11:08:54 PM »
Sorry kaywhyn, I was only kidding about the Drunk lemmings on the way Home. It's just we were mentioning that level quite a bit, so I thought I would throw that in as kind of a way to show that we were annoyed with the builder wall having to add an extra builder. Also showing this replay in neolemmix where Icho said your other solution without using the builder wall would be too difficult
to fix. Also stating that your solution is more difficult to execute.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2020, 11:31:41 PM »
Ah, inside joke. I get it now :crylaugh: I knew I was missing something there. Thanks for clearing it up. Sometimes I take things too literally. They're favorites of mine to an extent, but in terms of fixing for Superlemmini... :evil: Yes, just like you, you're right about me being annoyed about the builder wall not working when it should. I sure hope Tsyu agrees and fixes them. It would really reduce the annoyance factor by quite a lot when you're converting and level solving in the engine.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Turrican

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #27 on: November 09, 2020, 04:00:20 PM »
Hey Tsyu, another bug that has been observed. See attached replay. The climbers are able to climb through the ceiling and act as if there is no terrain above them when climbing. This also happens in custom level packs as well, but the one I have requires an L2 style, and so it's not going to load correctly. Is this climber behavior intentional? I highly doubt it. Credit goes to ericderkovits for discovering this, since he caught this while converting a Lemmini pack to Superlemmini.

Also another one that eric discovered, and that is a climber is still able to get over a builder wall (one where you use 3 builders stacked behind one another to create an impassable wall). However, if 4 builders are used, then it will stop a climber from getting over the builder wall. Is this intended behavior in Superlemmini as well?

What is showcased in the screenshot , is actually not a bug! This is part of the intended climber behaviour in the original  games ( like the dos version or the Amiga version of the game )! In that case , the behaviour of the climbers is correct in Superlemmini , and it's Lemmini and Neolemmix that have it wrong!

 And that is because ,  Lemmini and Neolemmix , doesn't try to come close to the physics of the original games ,  and in comparison Superlemmini tries to emulate the Amiga physics (excluding things like glitches)!

The general rule in that case on the climber behaviour in the original game is that the climber when it starts climbing , can surpass larger obstacles , compared to what it can surpass in Lemmini/Neolemmix!

And to be honest here , I have years , to play the Amiga version ,  so what I describe in terms of physics , is based on the dos version of the game! But basic skill behaviours like this are the same between the dos and Amiga versions of the game , so in that case that climber behaviour seems to be intentional , a a result of Superlemmini emulating the physics of the Amiga version of the game!

EDIT: Also what I describe here , is based on the screenshot you have attached! I haven't seen the replay you have attached!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 04:05:40 PM by Turrican »
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Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #28 on: November 09, 2020, 07:01:59 PM »
What is showcased in the screenshot , is actually not a bug! This is part of the intended climber behaviour in the original  games ( like the dos version or the Amiga version of the game )! In that case , the behaviour of the climbers is correct in Superlemmini , and it's Lemmini and Neolemmix that have it wrong!

And that is because ,  Lemmini and Neolemmix , doesn't try to come close to the physics of the original games ,  and in comparison Superlemmini tries to emulate the Amiga physics (excluding things like glitches)!

The general rule in that case on the climber behaviour in the original game is that the climber when it starts climbing , can surpass larger obstacles , compared to what it can surpass in Lemmini/Neolemmix!

And to be honest here , I have years , to play the Amiga version ,  so what I describe in terms of physics , is based on the dos version of the game! But basic skill behaviours like this are the same between the dos and Amiga versions of the game , so in that case that climber behaviour seems to be intentional , a a result of Superlemmini emulating the physics of the Amiga version of the game!

Neolemmix is a fork of Lemmix (hence the second part of its name), as well as its own platform/engine, and so from that point of view there's nothing wrong with the climber behavior being different. Lemmini is also its own engine developed by a different person than that of Superlemmini, and so Superlemmini is more than just an improved version of Lemmini, particularly since the Lemmini exclusive glitches aren't present in it.

Right, I think it's already well-known from discussions around the forums that Superlemmini tries to emulate Amiga physics. Because of that, since the climber issue is also present in the Amiga version, it's just like you said, from that viewpoint there's nothing wrong with it and hence it would be intended behavior. On the Amiga, the climber behavior is never an issue because no level from the official games ever requires it. It's simply a behavior that I wasn't ever aware of that happens in Superlemmini until I saw it happening from when eric was converting Lemmini custom packs to Superlemmini, mainly due to how I grew up with the Dos version. AFAIK, these climber issues are not present in the Dos version (climber doesn't climb through several pixels of ceiling in the way like you see in the screenshot, 3 builder wall stops climbers properly).

At the same time, Tsyu, the developer, might had intended these climber behaviors, but since some of us think they're issues, that's why we reported them to him as bugs (in our eyes) and want to confirm with Tsyu whether they're intended behaviors or not. As they are, they're more than annoying when converting/editing in Superlemmini. I, for one, definitely think they should be fixed, though. Whether or not they'll be kept as is or fixed is of course ultimately up to Tsyu, as right now we simply don't know what he intended for Superlemmini.   

Quote
EDIT: Also what I describe here , is based on the screenshot you have attached! I haven't seen the replay you have attached!

It's just a screenshot. There's no replay attached showing the issue, so no, you're not seeing things or missing anything. You can always open up a level in one of the official games and try to create a situation in order to replicate the behavior, though. I can confirm that both climber behaviors (several pixels of ceiling above and climber still is able to climb no problem, climber is able to get past a 3 builder wall) happen from an ONML level I tested them on.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
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Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #29 on: November 09, 2020, 07:55:51 PM »
Yes, I agree with Kaywhyn. Although these issues may be present in the Amiga version levels and no original levels require these, I do also think they should be fixed. Because most people don't just want to play the original games with Superlemmini. Many people also want to play custom packs too. Also if Superlemmini is going to even remotely compete with NL, they should be fixed, otherwise people will just want to play custom packs in NL. Also Colorful Arty's Sublems, I think he had to adjust at least some levels due to these issues. Just at the moment, I can't recall the specific levels.

Also I enjoy playing custom packs in Superlemmini, and it's quite annoying to have to address these issues when editing. For example, they appeared quite often in my conversion of Icho's Lemmini Reunion Pack.

@Turrican, Although I know you are very fond of glitches and irregularites in levels, as you make these kind or pick them from other peoples levels, not everybody just wants glitchy levels or irregularites with lemming behavior.

Also I know if Superlemmini didn't have any Custom packs availiable, I probably wouldn't even be interested in Superlemmini. Luckly, There are many custom packs availiable now, either previously or ones I convert. Also people should be glad that I'm fond of Superlemmini and am willing to take the time to make more custom packs for Superlemmini. Also most people don't know
how to deal with the conversion part or editing parts of Superlemmini. I seem to be the only one willing or know how to convert packs as I'm very knowledgable on  how the packing of levels works in Superlemmini(technical parts), as I've read Tsyu's info doc on how packs work(levelpack.ini and .ini's work). Even Willem requested info on this as I posted a small example on how to pack levels,
as I know Willem likes Superlemmini too. He found this part difficult, where I find it rather easy(with help from Tsyu's doc)

Offline Turrican

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #30 on: November 09, 2020, 08:27:15 PM »
AFAIK, these climber issues are not present in the Dos version (climber doesn't climb through several pixels of ceiling in the way like you see in the screenshot, 3 builder wall stops climbers properly).

There are dos/Lemmix custom levels that you need to build a 3 builder wall to contain the crowd , and then strategically , to assign some climbers , that they will climb through the 3 builder wall , and will prepare the path for the other lemmings!

I have the videos of the solutions for two of these levels in my channel! Now , I know that you don't like to have solutions , or parts of solutions of custom levels , spoiled , but I will post the link for one of these , so anyone else that will watch it , will be able to confirm here that this is possible!

Link for the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDTPPi-qPs

The level is :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Also I'm not sure if it's 100% similar to the situation that is showcased in the screenshot , but here is an example of a dos/Lemmix that I think it showcases something similar:
 
The level is "Rise Through the Ranks" by Clam , from the ClamSpam04 pack ( link for the pack: http://lemmings-db.camanis.net/levelpack/ag1zfmxlbW1pbmdzLWRichALEglMZXZlbFBhY2sY4gIM/ )

As you can see in the preview picture of the level in the link , there is ceiling above the opening hatch! If you assign a lemming as a climber in dos/Lemmix , it will climb through that ceiling! In Lemmini/Neolemmix that's not possible!

Also @ericderkovits : I know that it's up to Superlemmini players to decide if these climber behaviours need to be changed! What I'm doing here is my favourite subject : exploring and discussing physics! That's why I'm playing Lemmings at three different engines right now! I like comparing physic engines , and what is possible on each of them! In the thread about my Superlemmini project , I have posted some "Lemmix to Neolemmix" level conversions of some very old levels! One of these is practically Lemmix/Superlemmini physics exclusive (It's main trick is completely impossible in Neolemmix)! Another of these also uses a trick that is not possible in Neolemmix , and in my solution of another of these , I also use another "not possible in Neoleemix" trick , that it can be avoided ( so that level is still possible in Neolemmix)!

At the future expect more levels or levels conversions by me that's not possible in Neolemmix because of differences in physics! (And that is as I said , because I like to explore the differences in physics between the engines)!




« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 08:36:22 PM by Turrican »
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Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #31 on: November 09, 2020, 08:47:14 PM »
yes, I see you like to explore physics in different engines. I just thought of an idea(not sure if Tsyu would ever do it since he wants to model Amiga). I wonder if Tsyu could have an option(under the options menu), if he could have one choose what behaviors a climber could have (ie 3 builder or 4 builder wall to stop climbers (ie: choice to model Amiga, Dos or NL as an option)). Although
not sure is this would be easy to implement.

This way one could choose what behavior a climber should have, to allow for normal behavior or irregular behavior. This way it would satisfy both regular play and irregular play(such as levels that Turrican likes). Make the climber behavior a choice in the Options menu.

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #32 on: November 09, 2020, 09:16:51 PM »
There are dos/Lemmix custom levels that you need to build a 3 builder wall to contain the crowd , and then strategically , to assign some climbers , that they will climb through the 3 builder wall , and will prepare the path for the other lemmings!

I have the videos of the solutions for two of these levels in my channel! Now , I know that you don't like to have solutions , or parts of solutions of custom levels , spoiled , but I will post the link for one of these , so anyone else that will watch it , will be able to confirm here that this is possible!

Link for the video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-kDTPPi-qPs

The level is :
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

You need to first be aware that it's possible for a climber to get over the builder wall in certain engines and then enforce it so that the player is forced to discover that it is indeed possible, since again none of the official games require this, nor do any of the custom packs made for Superlemmini, and most certainly not the ones that got converted to SL due to being made from other engines where it's not possible. Even though I haven't viewed it yet, the fact that you posted a video proving that it's possible suffices. Also, I just tested the builder wall on Tame 1 of ONML on Dos. Indeed, a climber is able to get past it, so I stand corrected. So, it turns out that it's possible in more engines than I thought possible: Amiga, Dos, Lemmix, and Superlemmini. In particular, I grew up with the Dos version of the game and only discovered just now that it is indeed possible for a climber to get over a builder wall. Now that I think about it, it was premature for me to say that it's not possible for a climber to get over a builder wall in Dos, since I have never ever tried assigning a climber. I have only seen walkers turn around on a builder wall since it prevents lemmings from stepping up, but I haven't ever tried to see what happens when I assign a climber.

Quote

Also I'm not sure if it's 100% similar to the situation that is showcased in the screenshot , but here is an example of a dos/Lemmix that I think it showcases something similar:
 
The level is "Rise Through the Ranks" by Clam , from the ClamSpam04 pack ( link for the pack: http://lemmings-db.camanis.net/levelpack/ag1zfmxlbW1pbmdzLWRichALEglMZXZlbFBhY2sY4gIM/ )

As you can see in the preview picture of the level in the link , there is ceiling above the opening hatch! If you assign a lemming as a climber in dos/Lemmix , it will climb through that ceiling! In Lemmini/Neolemmix that's not possible!

Yes, this is indeed similar to what you saw in the screenshot. You can't test it right above the entrance, but you can on the right side. I just tried out the level you mentioned on Dos and once again I stand corrected. When climbers climb on the right side, they can still get above the ceiling even though there is terrain in the way. So yet another thing that I thought wasn't possible on Dos but it is. To be fair, even though I have played so many custom level packs for Dos in the last several years, I have yet to encounter a level where a climber is still able to climb even though there is ceiling in the way being integral to the solution. You can guess that I have yet to play any of Clam's packs.

Even though the two things I brought up which I thought weren't possible on Dos are possible with the climbers, it doesn't mean that they're intended behaviors in SL. SL is its own engine and there are still plenty of differences between it and Dos and Lemmix. eric and I would like these so-called bugs in our eyes fixed for SL, but again it's ultimately up to Tsyu to decide if they should remain or be fixed.

Quote
I have posted some "Lemmix to Neolemmix" level conversions of some very old levels! One of these is practically Lemmix/Superlemmini physics exclusive (It's main trick is completely impossible in Neolemmix)! Another of these also uses a trick that is not possible in Neolemmix , and in my solution of another of these , I also use another "not possible in Neoleemix" trick , that it can be avoided ( so that level is still possible in Neolemmix)!

As I mentioned before, I'm indifferent to glitches, but I lean more towards don't like them vs do. My reasoning is that skills should act reasonably and predictably, not the other way around! That being said, I still enjoyed the custom pack Pimolems on Lemmini very much. Other than one or two that definitely shouldn't be possible but is because of the way the miner works in Lemmini, the others aren't as strange and they generally don't take too long to hit upon in the pack. One of them is a climber glitch that I'm quite familiar with because it's also present in Dos, while the other one is strange but can simply just be thought of that the level sides has invisible solid terrain so that lemmings can climb or simply turn around in Lemmini.

Yes, I agree with Kaywhyn. Although these issues may be present in the Amiga version levels and no original levels require these, I do also think they should be fixed. Because most people don't just want to play the original games with Superlemmini. Many people also want to play custom packs too. Also if Superlemmini is going to even remotely compete with NL, they should be fixed, otherwise people will just want to play custom packs in NL.

Glad to hear it and completely agree with all of the above.

Quote
Also people should be glad that I'm fond of Superlemmini and am willing to take the time to make more custom packs for Superlemmini.

eric, WillLem, and I are huge fans of SL. The fact that I stayed with Lemmini/SL for at least 4-5 years before I finally tried out NL last year certainly supports this. Indeed, I am thankful for all the packs that eric has converted to SL, as I too felt SL doesn't have enough custom packs. I haven't played them yet, but they're on my to-play list at some point.

Quote
I've read Tsyu's info doc on how packs work(levelpack.ini and .ini's work). Even Willem requested info on this as I posted a small example on how to pack levels,
as I know Willem likes Superlemmini too. He found this part difficult, where I find it rather easy(with help from Tsyu's doc)

It's just a matter of brushing up on reading on how to, like you did with Tsyu's documentation, as well as find a level pack for SL and simply imitate the structure of the levelpack.ini file. NL is the same way, imitate the various files for levels/level packs.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline Turrican

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #33 on: November 09, 2020, 09:24:26 PM »
yes, I see you like to explore physics in different engines. I just thought of an idea(not sure if Tsyu would ever do it since he wants to model Amiga). I wonder if Tsyu could have an option(under the options menu), if he could have one choose what behaviors a climber could have (ie 3 builder or 4 builder wall to stop climbers (ie: choice to model Amiga, Dos or NL as an option)). Although
not sure is this would be easy to implement.

This way one could choose what behavior a climber should have, to allow for normal behavior or irregular behavior. This way it would satisfy both regular play and irregular play(such as levels that Turrican likes). Make the climber behavior a choice in the Options menu.

That is a nice idea , but it also may be risky too , because many players from what I'm seeing , like to have one physics engine for their lemmings clone , that covers all the custom content , without small execeptions , or options like these!

As I said , it's up to the players to decide , if things like these climber behaviours need to change, and personally I don't have any problem , with whatever will be decided! That's not a big deal for me!

EDIT:
As I mentioned before, I'm indifferent to glitches, but I lean more towards don't like them vs do. My reasoning is that skills should act reasonably and predictably, not the other way around! That being said, I still enjoyed the custom pack Pimolems on Lemmini very much. Other than one or two that definitely shouldn't be possible but is because of the way the miner works in Lemmini, the others aren't as strange and they generally don't take too long to hit upon in the pack. One of them is a climber glitch that I'm quite familiar with because it's also present in Dos, while the other one is strange but can simply just be thought of that the level sides has invisible solid terrain so that lemmings can climb or simply turn around in Lemmini

I'm not talking only about glitches here! It is possible due to differences in physics to have also non-glitch tricks that's possible to one engine , but not in another! The "Lemmix/Superlemmini physics exclusive" level I mention , requires a really awesome non-glitch trick in order to be solved , that unfortunately that's not possible to Neolemmix due to differences in physics!
« Last Edit: November 09, 2020, 09:50:06 PM by Turrican »
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Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #34 on: November 09, 2020, 10:18:09 PM »
yes, I see you like to explore physics in different engines. I just thought of an idea(not sure if Tsyu would ever do it since he wants to model Amiga). I wonder if Tsyu could have an option(under the options menu), if he could have one choose what behaviors a climber could have (ie 3 builder or 4 builder wall to stop climbers (ie: choice to model Amiga, Dos or NL as an option)). Although
not sure is this would be easy to implement.

Code-wise, it's probably not complex. My main concern with this would be depending on the levels and you encounter an impossible level later on due to switching off modeling Amiga behavior for the builder wall. I don't think this will affect any level, other than possibly the ones that Turrican posted above, that's currently available, but it can be a bit annoying to switch between options for when you do encounter an impossible level later on due to having the wrong one enabled or disabled. In addition, I also like being consistent, meaning I prefer to play with one set of physics and not have to keep switching between differing physics of various engines.

Still, you can post this in the "feature requests for SL" topic and see how well it goes down with the other SL fans.

That is a nice idea , but it also may be risky too , because many players from what I'm seeing , like to have one physics engine for their lemmings clone , that covers all the custom content , without small execeptions , or options like these!

Yup, as I stated above, I am one of those who prefers playing with just one set of physics and not have to bother switching between them.

Quote
As I said , it's up to the players to decide , if things like these climber behaviours need to change, and personally I don't have any problem , with whatever will be decided! That's not a big deal for me!

I don't mind either as to whether they get fixed or not. I simply have the preference that they get fixed. All that matters to me is consistency.

Quote
I'm not talking only about glitches here! It is possible due to differences in physics to have also non-glitch tricks that's possible to one engine , but not in another! The "Lemmix/Superlemmini physics exclusive" level I mention , requires a really awesome non-glitch trick in order to be solved , that unfortunately that's not possible to Neolemmix due to differences in physics!

I'm aware that you're also referring to non-glitch tricks being possible in certain engines but not in others. A really good example would be Ron Stard's Rodents level pack which he made for 3 different engines. I have only tried it in NL and SL, and in an early version, I encountered a level where there was a certain level that was possible and much easier in NL but it was originally impossible in SL due to the author not extensively testing the level before release. The level in question was due to the basher checks being drastically different in SL from that in NL. I'm not sure what Ron Stard did to fix the level in SL, but it's now possible with the most recent update. Probably just moved the walls a tiny bit so that even that tiny difference now made the level possible.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
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Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2020, 12:41:48 AM »
Yeah, both you are right. It was a suggestion only. Most people wouldn't want the option, although Tysu mentioned something about 2 game modes(original-using timed bombers, and easy mode-where it currently stands). So I believe Tsyu likes having options. I know Willlem liked the Idea. How about if when designing a level,  there will be a line in each levels .ini file that uses climbers, there will be a line that states climber_type = Amiga or Non-Amiga and then when one plays the level, the climber will be a different color so for example blue-where a climber doesn't climb 1 pixel terrain(whether terrain or 3-builder walls, and when he is perhaps red or green he can climb 3 builder walls or places like crosses or wells or 1-pixel ceilings)). Then if the climber is green or red when playing one knows it's an Amiga version climber(can climb 3 builder walls and 1 pixel ceilings and things like wells and crosses). I know this sounds kinda goofy, so if it's dumb it's ok.

Or maybe make suggestions on how to accomplish this climber issue so if one still like the irregular climber issue, then one can still have those levels.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #36 on: November 11, 2020, 12:26:52 AM »
I don't think Tsyu is active on here any more, haven't heard from him in aaages. Does anyone else know how to code in Java?

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #37 on: November 13, 2020, 10:25:39 AM »
Yeah, both you are right. It was a suggestion only. Most people wouldn't want the option, although Tysu mentioned something about 2 game modes(original-using timed bombers, and easy mode-where it currently stands). So I believe Tsyu likes having options. I know Willlem liked the Idea.

Let me be clear that I wasn't 100% in opposition to your idea. The idea itself sounds great and could work, but in theory I'm not sure how well it would work. Since I believe there's not that many levels in which the Amiga builder wall/climber mechanics will make a difference, it probably won't really matter too much overall. Also, as I mentioned before, I prefer to simply stick to one set of physics rather than change between them via an option. They can get quite confusing at times as well. On the other hand, I'm definitely fine with timed bombers possibly making a return via an option for SL. I definitely miss it and one of the few players that don't mind them.

Quote
Or maybe make suggestions on how to accomplish this climber issue so if one still like the irregular climber issue, then one can still have those levels.

Other than your suggestion, I don't have anything better. Instead, I simply would like to see these fixed if Tsyu agrees they should be changed.

I don't think Tsyu is active on here any more, haven't heard from him in aaages. Does anyone else know how to code in Java?

I think that person probably would had done some changes to SL already if he or she knew coding in Java. In my case, even if I did know some Java (which I 100% don't have any knowledge of Java coding), I'm one who wouldn't touch another person's project, at least without permission. Asking for permission is, after all, the courteous thing to do.
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Offline WillLem

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2020, 06:09:27 PM »
I think that person probably would had done some changes to SL already if he or she knew coding in Java. In my case, even if I did know some Java (which I 100% don't have any knowledge of Java coding), I'm one who wouldn't touch another person's project, at least without permission. Asking for permission is, after all, the courteous thing to do.

Absolutely, I agree. But:

a) SuperLemmini's source code is available for making alternative versions, and it's my understanding that anybody with the necessary coding skills is welcome to do so. SL itself is an offshoot of the earlier program Lemmini.

b) If an open-source program's creator has been inactive for a long time, and therefore isn't around to ask for permission, there comes a point when it's reasonable for someone else to take the reigns (again, if they have the necessary skills). I would suggest giving the project a different title, and making it very clear that it's an offshoot, in this scenario. That way, should the original program's creator make an appearance at a later date, their project is exactly as they left it.

Having said this, I am fully in agreement with you that for the sake of courtesy (and due acknowledgement) it's by far preferable to do any kind of alternative/offshoot project with the blessing of the original creator, no doubt about that.

Offline namida

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2020, 08:03:40 PM »
Quote
a) SuperLemmini's source code is available for making alternative versions, and it's my understanding that anybody with the necessary coding skills is welcome to do so. SL itself is an offshoot of the earlier program Lemmini.

It is not obvious what licence SuperLemmini's source code is under. The readme in the source code does not specify a licence for SuperLemmini itself; it only clarifies that one of the libraries it uses is LGPL. Lemmini's is under APL 2.0: http://www.apache.org/licenses/LICENSE-2.0.html

With that being said, I would consider it safe to assume that Tsyu intends for it to be useable under similar conditions to Lemmini's. Of course, if he were to clarify otherwise later, you would technically need to abide by that - this is more a "you are not likely to actually run into trouble here" than a "you have an explicit right to do this".

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #40 on: April 08, 2021, 10:18:58 PM »
ok, I discovered something strange with the steel in Superlemmini. Here is a level of lemmings reunion (Nightmare 21-Rockbiter). I'm trying to add steel to the level as Icho did in
the NL version (backroute fix). I added steel to a small strip of terrain in the editor but when the level plays this is what happens. I don't know why the first lemming can bash through but any remaining ones don't go through.

I think this is a bug.

here is a video showing what I mean

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dWRzRTnEtGE

Offline kaywhyn

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #41 on: May 23, 2021, 02:42:18 AM »
Hi Tsyu,

Just bumping this thread since there are certain physics/mechanics that we have questions about, in particular, concerning whether these behaviors in Superlemmini are intentional or not. Some of us would like to see them get fixed, but it's ultimately your decision, since you're the author of Superlemmini.

To save you the trouble, I have linked to the various posts earlier in this thread:

Reply #17 - Climbers can climb through a ceiling even if there's terrain above him if it's thin enough IIRC this is the replay for Tame 1 from ONML

Also from Reply #17: Climbers can climb through a 3-builder wall, but a 4th builder will stop him

Reply #19 - Screenshot shows that a climber can get through the block on the left side at the bottom as if the triangular structure wasn't there

Reply #21 - Climbers can climb through crosses and signs from the Dirt tileset fine in Superlemmini, but in Lemmini/Neolemmix they cannot
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCPMqwuqZ206rBWJrUC6wkrA - My YouTube channel and you can also find my playlists of Lemmings level packs that I have LPed
kaywhyn's blog: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5363.0

Offline namida

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Re: [BUGS] Several bugs in Lemmings behaviour within SuperLemmini
« Reply #42 on: May 24, 2021, 07:03:21 PM »
I haven't looked at the specific cases, but FWIW, DOS lets climbers slip through a lot of things that NeoLemmix doesn't. By extension, Amiga likely behaves the same as DOS here. As I've mentioned a few times, SuperLemmini seems to be a weird mix of "sometimes follow what Amiga does even if it's a blatant glitch, other times do what's logical and/or consistent with other modern engines" - so this is likely a case of the former.