Author Topic: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]  (Read 8028 times)

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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #75 on: September 12, 2020, 08:11:41 am »
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Once that is done and Icho posts replays for the Groupie rank, and I turn everything green, then I can officially say I have this pack as another completed pack with replays.

Well, what does that really say if you "solved" the pack just using someone else's replays? ;)

Also, being the savvy player that he is, I'm pretty sure IchoTolot is going to find many further backroutes. Especially since he's the first player to actually make it to the final ranks, it seems. These backroutes I will have to fix afterwards, and then a good chunk of your "replay collection" won't work anymore.

So even if you just like to collect replays and compare and contrast solutions, this endeavour is going to turn pointless pretty quickly, at least at this stage.

I may upload my official solutions at some point (e.g. after IchoTolot has finished everything and thus every level has been subjected to backroute scrutiny by an expert player at least once, with me fixing all backroutes found that way). Then every level should be in a reasonably backroute-proof state. Sometimes these backroute fixes indeed require slight (e.g. timing) adaptations to the replays of the intended solution.

If I do upload my intended replays, I will do so separately for Old-Formats and New-Formats, because the radiation and slowfreeze levels obviously have completely different solutions between the two versions.

Or, if I feel like it and have a lot of time, I might do a creator's commentary series on YouTube, if anyone is interested? ;)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #76 on: September 12, 2020, 08:13:46 am »
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Are you referring to a different level, maybe?

Yes, sorry, it was the other Sports level (Encore 35) with the invisible egyptian smasher trap in it.


Regarding the whole replay system you are using:

The fact that you are having these troubles now proves that your current system is extremely flawed and is in desperate need of fixing.

I would drop everything right now and make fixing the replay structure the number 1 priority! The most important thing: Seperate old and new format replays completely so that a mass replay check can indeed be run! - Saw you indeed did that.

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Instead of manually identifying and copying all the 320 Old-Formats replay files to the New-Formats replay folder, I went the faster opposite route and copied the few replay files which are dedicated New-Formats replay files to the Old-Formats folder. Now I could run a second mass replay check over the entire Auto folder once again, so there should be at least one solving replay for every New-Formats level in that folder. This will take a while, though, because there are obviously still a bunch of replays from other packs in that folder.

Yes do it, it should still be quick. It's a very essential feature and assuring solvability of the pack to new players needs to be fast and trivial.

I still would go even further and invest the time to seperate the replays to each pack in different folders. Just trust me that the time spend on this well invested. A good structure when organizing files is essential.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #77 on: September 12, 2020, 10:19:44 am »
Up to Groupie 15. In 16 I am standing before a wall with no destruction skills and no pick ups...... :devil:  I don't know if a gimmick was intended here or you just missed to give the player some skills.....

Attached the replays so far.


Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #78 on: September 12, 2020, 10:41:34 am »
...and here's the fix for the Groupie rank (upload in the starting post)!

The initial mass replay check listed three levels as failing in which the Glider-Faller physics change didn't actually render the level impossible - it just altered the timing of my skill assignments in those particular replay files. Those were the levels

"That's a hard level that is" (Groupie 02)
"You know you make me wanna shout" (Groupie 13)
"I see fire" (Groupie 34)

Thus, nothing has changed about these level files; I only needed to correct the timing of the skill assignment in my replays. If anyone has solved these levels in the meantime using the current NeoLemmix version, those replays should still work.

The only levels that needed fixing were "Read my lips" (Groupie 10) and "All for love" (Groupie 16).

Groupie 10 needed one particular platform to be placed two pixels lower so that a Glider dropping from the ceiling could still land on it.

Groupie 16 had a completely unrelated issue: It is a level featuring an infinite number of Fencers.
In Old Formats, the number I set the skill count to for this purpose was 200.
In New Formats, the Fencer skill somehow was missing from the panel entirely.
As far as I recall, this was not the case during my initial conversion to New Formats, because I checked every single level again back then.
When I re-entered the number 200 in the New Formats editor, it was automatically set to 100. Apparently this is now the number instructing NeoLemmix to just set the skill count to infinite.

Maybe this change was implemented somewhere in the meantime, between two New-Formats versions? ???



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Up to Groupie 15. In 16 I am standing before a wall with no destruction skills and no pick ups...... :devil:  I don't know if a gimmick was intended here or you just missed to give the player some skills.....

As you can see, I had already discovered this myself in the meantime. :P I warned you yesterday evening that Groupie hadn't been checked yet, but it is now.
If you insisted on continuing to play in the few hours between yesterday evening and right now... :evil: But of course, I appreciate your persistence! :thumbsup:



I've attached the results of the latest mass replay check. I figure the PASSED section will be most informative to you, because some levels have an earlier (=Old-Formats) version of a replay listed under FAILED, but then another replay in the folder that solves it, and therefore the level will also appear under PASSED.

The levels are sorted alphabetically, but each line starts with the rank and level numbers, which are consequently all over the place. If you're looking for a particular level, just look for its name in the alphabetical list in the PASSED section and ignore the rank and level number before the name.

I guess in order for the mass replay file to show the levels in chronological order, when working with named level files as created by the editor (instead of numerical level files as created by the player), each of those level files would have to start with a rank number, then followed by a level number (01_01, 01_02, and so on). So the issue of alphabetical vs. rank and level number will always be present when using replay files created in the editor.

It seems this tool is overall more useful for checking whether your replays for somebody else's pack still work (because those are usually created while playing, i.e. in the player and therefore sorted by number instead of by level name), and less optimal for checking one's own pack. Of course, there will always be more packs by others a given person is playing than the number of packs that person created themselves, so it's still obviously a very useful tool most of the time.

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Yes, sorry, it was the other Sports level (Encore 35) with the invisible egyptian smasher trap in it.

Ah yeah, that is an old Paralems level. The reason I didn't change this in LWT is again an aesthetic one (kind of like with "Octopus's garden" and "Thunderstruck"), because I wanted the smashers to line up with the walls, i.e. look like they're coming out of the walls, rather than half out of thin air. Yes, this buries the trigger in the ground, but it wouldn't be much more visible otherwise either, given that both the trigger and the terrain are green, and the trigger is just 1 pixel high.

You kind of have to cover that pit anyway, because the lemmings can't get out otherwise. Maybe depending on how you assign the Miner, you could make it work.

I might change this in the future, I'll have to make up my mind about it. Either way, it shouldn't make or break solutions, because the height of the trigger area isn't relevant to the solution. It's a pure visuals-vs-game-fairness thing.

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Yes do it, it should still be quick. It's a very essential feature and assuring solvability of the pack to new players needs to be fast and trivial.

It actually is fast in general; the reason it takes longer is because the mass replay check always stops at the Groupie level "Hiroshima", giving me the message of falling back to default sprites. So I need to be present at the screen to click that message away.

I assume this is because GigaLem's Millas sprites don't contain a Jumper sprite yet? "Hiroshima" is one of the GigaLem-Groupie levels, so they kind of have to feature those sprites. There is no Jumper on the level (not in the entire pack, even), but of course, if you're using NeoLemmix 12.9, the engine will require every sprite set to have a Jumper sprite as much as any other sprite.

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I would drop everything right now and make fixing the replay structure the number 1 priority! The most important thing: Seperate old and new format replays completely so that a mass replay check can indeed be run! - Saw you indeed did that.

In fact, the opposite was the solution - throw both Old- and New-Formats replays into one folder so that the mass replay check always finds at least one working solution! :P
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #79 on: September 12, 2020, 11:43:57 am »
And that makes the pack completed. All replays attached. 8-)

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Maybe this change was implemented somewhere in the meantime, between two New-Formats versions?

All skill counts can only go up to 99, this was patch quite a while ago.

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I assume this is because GigaLem's Millas sprites don't contain a Jumper sprite yet?

Giga's Millas are already updated. In the most recent version they do have that jumper sprite and I myself have no disruptions in my replay check.

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It seems this tool is overall more useful for checking whether your replays for somebody else's pack still work

It's VERY effective in checking your own packs. I myself save replays for my own levels with the level name as the file name just like you do and I see immediately when something goes from PASSED to FAILED/UNDERTERMINED.

It's also very fast and I can proof solvability to all my packs in a matter of minutes.

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In fact, the opposite was the solution - throw both Old- and New-Formats replays into one folder so that the mass replay check always finds at least one working solution!

This just shows that your replay folder needs an exorcist. :8():

All new format replays (one for each level) in one folder. The old format replay collection in another one. That for each and every pack.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #80 on: September 13, 2020, 11:21:35 am »
First things first: Congratulations on and a big round of applause for being the first to beat the entire (New-Formats Version of) the pack, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

I had already fixed the backroutes you found (where possible) up to the end of the Rockstar rank (but I haven't uploaded an update yet). For now I've taken a look at your replays for the Legend rank. As I've expected, with higher level complexity, larger skill sets, and thus more degrees of freedom, the number of backroutes went up significantly - at least for you being the first one to even attempt these levels.

Funnily enough, the levels I expected you the most to backroute were the ones you actually didn't backroute. ;)

I'm writing down my feedback to the single Legend levels in the spoiler tag - not just for you, but also for me to remember what I need to fix. 8-) Right now, it's still fresh in my memory, but I'm sure this will take a while to implement.

IchoTolot Legend rank (click to show/hide)

To be continued soon! ;)

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All skill counts can only go up to 99, this was patch quite a while ago.

Well, infinite skills are still possible. ;) It's just that you apparently have to type a 100 into the skill count specifically to make it work, rather than any number larger than 99.

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Giga's Millas are already updated. In the most recent version they do have that jumper sprite and I myself have no disruptions in my replay check.

Thanks for the info, then it seems I just need to update my style files! ;)

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All new format replays (one for each level) in one folder. The old format replay collection in another one. That for each and every pack.

On the vast majority of the levels, the solution for Old and New Formats are the same. So I'd rather have one file for each solution instead of having duplicates leafing around that I could then accidentally modify independently of each other. ;)

When checking your own packs, do you make more use of the "PASSED" section, or of the "FAILED" section?

I assume the FAILED section is supposed to be very short, so that each entry there serves as an alarm signal. The thing is, though, that I deliberately also keep replays of backroutes, so whenever I change something about a level, I can run those again and make sure the backroutes are still disabled. Thus, those formerly solving replay files will always show up under failed, and in that case, this is a good thing, because they shouldn't be allowed to pass. ;)

Of course, with steel and one-way arrows, those usually remain in place, so they don't require constant rechecking when editing a level. In contrast though, any adjustments to the skill panel and, by extension, placement of pickup skills, can easily re-introduce backroutes again, if the player suddenly has a skill at their disposal again that they shouldn't have, and can then use it in a place where they shouldn't use it. 8-)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #81 on: September 13, 2020, 12:09:23 pm »
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First things first: Congratulations on and a big round of applause for being the first to beat the entire (New-Formats Version of) the pack, IchoTolot!

Thanks! ;)

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When checking your own packs, do you make more use of the "PASSED" section, or of the "FAILED" section?

FAILED and UNDETERMINED.

I've got only the replays of the pack I want to check in the selected folder, so if nothing is in FAILED or UNDETERMINED  and everything is in PASSED it's alright. This can be checked in a second if you've got the file.

Basically, if I see anything in FAILED or UNDETERMINED then I need to check what's wrong.

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The thing is, though, that I deliberately also keep replays of backroutes

Keep them in a seperate folder called "Lemmings World Tour Backroutes". In there they won't interfere anymore and if you want to do an additional check on them if they still fail you can do that as well.

Online kaywhyn

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #82 on: September 13, 2020, 05:49:29 pm »
A big congratulations from me as well for not only officially being the first person to finish the pack, but also for finishing the largest level pack there currently is! :thumbsup: That's quite an accomplishment. I'll get to LWT eventually. It's on my to-play list, but it's probably going to be a while before I do so, since there's still plenty of other level packs that I'm currently prioritizing. I have plans to do both the Old Formats and the New Formats versions. I should probably start with the Old Formats version first, considering that no one else has finished it, as well as getting used to the culled objects and other things exclusive to the v10 NL players. Not to mention there isn't as many packs in the Old Formats left for me to play. Come to think of it, unless I'm forgetting some of the packs, I think Strato's (Pit Lems, Paralems, and Old Formats LWT are the ones that come to mind) are the only ones left I need to play in Old Formats. We'll see.

edit: Forgot about Casualemmings, where I'm currently stuck on Super Mecha Gators with the uber crocodile traps. Now, you said that Perky 20 is indeed possible? Ninoaddict showed you a solvable replay of the level?
« Last Edit: September 13, 2020, 09:49:28 pm by kaywhyn »

Offline ericderkovits

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #83 on: September 13, 2020, 10:24:50 pm »
yes I got all of icho's replays now for LWT. But I had to redownload Stratos pack 2 days ago since he altered some levels because icho's replays were broken (ie Viva Colonia).
I did a Mass replay check on Icho's new Updated replays and now there all good.

So I updated my list of custom new format packs I have replays for.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #84 on: September 14, 2020, 12:10:54 pm »
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I should probably start with the Old Formats version first, considering that no one else has finished it, as well as getting used to the culled objects and other things exclusive to the v10 NL players.

I'm very happy to hear that! :thumbsup:

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Come to think of it, unless I'm forgetting some of the packs, I think Strato's (Pit Lems, Paralems, and Old Formats LWT are the ones that come to mind) are the only ones left I need to play in Old Formats. We'll see.

If those are all you have left to play in Old Formats, don't be hesitant to jump straight to LWT, as far as packs on that Old-Formats list are concerned. ;) Paralems was my very first pack and quality levels are few and far between. Pit Lems is mechanically fair and slightly more challenging, but it has no overarching theme, in contrast to LWT. Plus, I am still working on Pit Lems Remastered for New Formats anyway, which is going to be Pit Lems + the best levels of Paralems mashed into one slightly larger pack (150 levels).

Unless of course you want to give my radiation and slowfreeze levels from Pit Lems a try. Those won't make it to New Formats, obviously, and some of them I am quite proud of. :D In that case, I'd probably point you to Old-Formats Pit Lems first.

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edit: Forgot about Casualemmings, where I'm currently stuck on Super Mecha Gators with the uber crocodile traps. Now, you said that Perky 20 is indeed possible? Ninoaddict showed you a solvable replay of the level?

Coincidentally, this is one of the few levels from Casualemmings that only exists in Old Formats. I've redesigned traps for New Formats in such a way thought that it should be possible now to convert the level to New Formats, and include it in the new version as well. I've already contacted nin10doadict about this, but haven't received a response so far. :P
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online kaywhyn

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #85 on: September 14, 2020, 02:58:40 pm »
Coincidentally, this is one of the few levels from Casualemmings that only exists in Old Formats. I've redesigned traps for New Formats in such a way thought that it should be possible now to convert the level to New Formats, and include it in the new version as well. I've already contacted nin10doadict about this, but haven't received a response so far. :P

Yes, I remember you saying that you were willing to lend nin10doaddict a hand in converting the uber deadly crocodile traps. However, that's not my main concern. What I want to know is if he ever showed you an actual replay that solves Perky 20, as I'm still finding the level completely and downright impossible. The 3-in-1 crocodile trap triggers way too fast (well, the first two anyway, the zapper from the bubble tileset and the lizard tongue from the rock tileset). From what I remember, I think you said that he gave you hints on how to solve it. From what it seems, there appears to be no solving replay of the level around anywhere. So really, I'm just asking to confirm solvability of the level, as I think it's impossible due to how I haven't solved it yet. Of course, just because I can't solve it doesn't mean that it is impossible.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #86 on: September 14, 2020, 03:28:27 pm »
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So really, I'm just asking to confirm solvability of the level, as I think it's impossible due to how I haven't solved it yet. Of course, just because I can't solve it doesn't mean that it is impossible.

Yeah, I asked nin10doadict for a replay back then as well, because I was pretty ashamed of not being able to solve a level that was supposedly inspired by myself. :oops: I had a solving replay once, but when running it again now, it also failed.

However, I just figured out the solution again for myself. My new replay for "Super Mecha Death Gators" is attached. ;)

PS: Back to the pack of this topic. :P
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online kaywhyn

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #87 on: September 14, 2020, 03:41:31 pm »
Yeah, I asked nin10doadict for a replay back then as well, because I was pretty ashamed of not being able to solve a level that was supposedly inspired by myself. :oops: I had a solving replay once, but when running it again now, it also failed.

However, I just figured out the solution again for myself. My new replay for "Super Mecha Death Gators" is attached. ;)

Ok, thanks. I'm still insisting on not peaking at your replay until I have solved it myself, though! I only watch replays after I have beaten the level first, as I prefer the satisfaction of figuring out the solution myself :P However, good to know that it is 100% possible and that I can stop going insane thinking it's not. I posted a while back in the Casualemmings level pack topic but didn't get any kind of response whether Perky 20 was possible.

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PS: Back to the pack of this topic. :P

My bad. You're right, of course. Looking forward to giving LWT a playthrough whenever I get to it! ;)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #88 on: September 16, 2020, 10:01:17 pm »
The next update with the fixes to IchoTolot's backroutes from the Rockstar and Legend rank has been uploaded to the starting post! :D

No changes to Encore or Groupie yet.

Changelog (click to show/hide)
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #89 on: September 17, 2020, 04:29:58 pm »
Resolved everything relevant. :)