Author Topic: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.  (Read 297 times)

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Offline Name Invaild

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I had the game finished a few days ago and just been curious... is it even possible to save all the Lemmings in "Classic 05: The Magnificent Severn" & "Polar 08: Snowed In !"...? These are the only two levels where I couldn't figure out how to save them all.

This is what I have so far.

60 - Beach
60 - Outdoor
60 - Egyptian
60 - Medieval
59 - Classic *1 lost in The Magnificent Severn*
60 - Circus
60 - Highland
59 - Polar *1 lost in Snowed In !*
60 - Space
60 - Cavelem
60 - Shadow
60* - Sports

*Note*
"Sports 01: Ceci n'est pas une pipe" uses a glitch which allows you to save all 60 Lemmings, otherwise the most that I could save without the glitch is 58. I dunno if the glitch is exclusive in the DOS version.

-----

I think the hardest level for me when trying to save them all has to be 'Classic 08: The Secret Of LEMH' due to all the timing with those Diggers & such. "Highland 10: EAT MY SHRAPNEL !!" is perhaps second hardest but you can sorta make it easier with the timing with a Slider on the wall and then using the Mortar as that Slider falls down, after that you'll get the timing down.

Hardest level by regular means... has to be "Sports 10: Take up Archery". Missing even one Archer for creating the arrow bridges, arrow walls or taking too long and it's a reset. Could have two spare Archers if I aimed them correctly but still rather tricky. Despite that level giving me some trouble... I did encounter a number of shortcuts especially in "Sports 05: Blow Back...." & "Sports 07: The Sun Sign Selection" for that tribe. A couple Space Tribe levels where tricky to deal with as well.

***EDIT***
Bit of an edit here but saved all the Lemmings in Classic 05 & Polar 08. Figure I put these here so it's a bit easier to find.

Classic 05:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1uYLR3u5Sc

Polar 08:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgOM0zgRGaA
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 03:20:17 am by Name Invaild »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2019, 09:50:39 am »
LemSteven found the 100% solutions to both those levels, which were indeed the last two levels in DOS Lemmings 2 for which 100% solutions were finally found.  The polar one requires glitches; the classic one doesn't but still very difficult to plan out and execute.

Details for Polar 08
Details for Classic 05

edit: forgot to ask, what glitch did you use for Sports 01?  The 100% solution that was previously reported here does use a glitch, but curious if you used the same one or found something completely different.

Offline Name Invaild

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Re: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2019, 10:15:23 am »
edit: forgot to ask, what glitch did you use for Sports 01?  The 100% solution that was previously reported here does use a glitch, but curious if you used the same one or found something completely different.

The glitch is using the Fast-Forwarding Button. If you time it on a certain frame for the Tennis Ball Crushers... they'll never play that one frame that is suppose to crush the Lemmings since it skips the frame. I got a bit of a hint with Fast-Forwarding skipping frames which was during "Highland 03: Stop your ticklin' Jock!". I've seen a few lemmings going straight through trampolines even though they were the only ones using it while Fast-Forwarding.

Also... ah, Polar 08, I did attempt something with the Thrower Skill, I think. also, that Cannon-Pause glitch which I recall encountering that during the Circus Tribe, if I recall.

Classic 05 solution looks to be a tough one to time. Funny enough I actually did attempt something like that but only after all of the Lemmings came out of the Trap Door.

*EDIT*
All 60/60 saved in "Polar 08: Snowed In !"! That bit with the Jumper with the Thrower stone to fence away the left bit of the holding cell was tricky to time, as well as the Cannon-Pause glitch since you'll have Lemmings right near each other and they won't use the cannon if one lemming is in the middle of lighting the fuse. I'll upload a video of it at some point.

Now to deal with Classic 05.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 11:08:39 am by Name Invaild »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.
« Reply #3 on: June 11, 2019, 11:12:14 am »
Thanks for sharing!  I think this may actually be first time we heard about fast-forward affecting hazards like the tennis ball 8-), though it makes sense in retrospect.  We did discover previously that "framestepping" (while paused, quickly unpause and re-pause by pressing spacebar and P almost simultaneously) in DOS Lemmings 2 can "freeze" hazards like the tennis ball (ie. it fails to advance to next frame during the framestepping even though the lemmings do move), though not quite 100% reliably.  I seem to recall that glitch was used in the 100% solution to Sports 1 that was previously reported.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.
« Reply #4 on: June 11, 2019, 12:52:00 pm »
Btw, do we happen to have all the tracks from Lemmings 2: The Tribes somewhere? Since the NeoLemmix editor includes the original and ONML tunes by default, I was hoping we might have the L2 ones as well. I only got to hear a select few on various custom levels, like Medieval and Cavelem, but not the complete list. ;)
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Offline Name Invaild

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Re: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.
« Reply #5 on: June 11, 2019, 03:39:00 pm »
Alright, "Classic 08: The Secret Of LEMH", you have been dethroned as the hardest level to save all the Lemmings on for me, the new king of the throne goes to "Classic 05: The Magnificent Severn". In my opinion.... this is without a doubt the hardest level for saving all the Lemmings on given how precise the skill usage has to be and how picky assigning the Floaters and especially the Digger. I also have that on video after many attempts which I'll get around to uploading later as I haven't even gone to bed yet.

"Polar 08: Snowed In !" took way less attempts than that level, but anyways... all the Lemmings have been saved in this game now :thumbsup:, just have to redo the later levels. I wonder if the ending changes... sadly... it does not.
« Last Edit: June 11, 2019, 05:41:59 pm by Name Invaild »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.
« Reply #6 on: June 11, 2019, 07:00:11 pm »
Good job! :thumbsup: Looking forward to to your video uploads, especially for Classic 5.

I'd be shocked if the ending really changes, considering that you need to glitch your way to 100% on several levels.

==============

Btw, do we happen to have all the tracks from Lemmings 2: The Tribes somewhere?

Um, try searching youtube maybe?  At least for hearing the ones you haven't heard.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%2B%22Lemmings+2%22+%2B%22music%22

"Lemmings 2: The Tribes - IBM-PC AdLib Soundtrack [fixed] [emulated]" looks particularly promising if you're specifically looking for the DOS version's music. (disclaimer: I did not bother listen to it, I just assume the title is accurate in regards to what version's music they are playing)

IIRC Amiga and DOS have fairly similar music.  SNES however has quite different music for multiple tribes.  Not sure about other ports.

I think at some point I actually did have extracted copies of Amiga's version of music.  They are in a tracker format called OctoMED which you should be able to Google for players and converters (the latter if you want to convert to MP3 or OGG or similar).  I'll see if I can still find the files.

Offline geoo

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Re: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.
« Reply #7 on: June 11, 2019, 08:39:28 pm »
Wow, great job finding all of these 100% solutions on your own, that's impressive. It took the community a long time to get there
(If you want to dig into the lore, until 2006, 2009-2012, the last two levels).

Nice find with the fast-forward glitch, too! So does it just skip every other frame, and the cycle length
of the tennis ball is even with one frame killing the lemmings? I knew fast forward was a bit wonky
with respect to physics, but never knew there were reliable patterns to exploit.
The pausing technique ccexplore mentioned is documented here.

Btw, do we happen to have all the tracks from Lemmings 2: The Tribes somewhere?
Attached is an archive with the Amiga, SNES and Genesis music (Circus is super catchy on the Genesis, we used to listed to that one on loop with Simon). Amiga I have in Octamed and mod format, should sound the same though. There are also midis for some reason, don't know where they come from. I also have DOS recordings with I think the Roland sound chip, but they are in ogg format and too fat to upload. Alas, I don't have my favourite version which is Adlib DOS (except for Cavelem).

Offline Name Invaild

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Re: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2019, 02:46:21 am »
Nice find with the fast-forward glitch, too! So does it just skip every other frame, and the cycle length
of the tennis ball is even with one frame killing the lemmings? I knew fast forward was a bit wonky
with respect to physics, but never knew there were reliable patterns to exploit.
The pausing technique ccexplore mentioned is documented here.

Hope I can explain this well. When the Tennis Ball crusher is at it's highest bounce, there's one extra frame that plays before it begins to go back down and that frame... the moment it plays... any Lemmings under the Tennis Ball will get crushed. If you Pause & Fast Forward on this frame but before that one frame plays... it'll be skipped completely as long as you're still fast forwarding. You know those five Tennis Ball Crushers in "Sports 09: The Nervous Network!"? You can walk right-on by without any Lemmings getting crushed if you Fast Forward at the right time. If you wish, you can stop Fast-Forwarding and watch as most of your Lemmings get crushed at the same time by those five Tennis Ball crushers.

That perhaps means that the frames are even, which is maybe why this trick works. Anyways... video time.

Classic 05:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1uYLR3u5Sc

Polar 08:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgOM0zgRGaA

Sadly the ending doesn't change as it just tells you "You are indeed the chosen one but can you do any better?" on the credits despite saving all 60 Lemmings in each Tribe.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2019, 02:09:34 pm by Name Invaild »

Online namida

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Re: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2019, 08:13:41 am »
Quote
Sadly the ending doesn't change as it just tells you "You are indeed the chosen one but can you could do any better?" on the credits despite saving all 60 Lemmings in each Tribe.

You could still do it faster, or perhaps with fewer skills! :P
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Offline Name Invaild

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Re: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2019, 05:28:48 pm »
You could still do it faster, or perhaps with fewer skills! :P

Yea, I could try doing that.

-----

Now... I've been thinking... if excluding the Fast-Forwarding & Cannon-Pause glitches. Wouldn't the totals be this?

60 - Beach
60 - Outdoor
60 - Egyptian
60 - Medieval
60 - Classic
60 - Circus
60 - Highland
59 - Polar *1 lost in Snowed In !*
60 - Space
60 - Cavelem
60 - Shadow
58 - Sports *2 lost in Ceci n'est pas une pipe*

Unsure of the totals if excluding the Crawling Upwards... or was it called Y-Sliding? I dunno. You do encounter that normally with Fillers & Sand Pourers as well as Blockers somehow forcing it and it occurs if there's a one pixel gap in the terrain. It just has a unintended side-effect of going through ceilings.

I think Classic Tribe's total would be different as only one level comes to mind if using the Crawling/Y-Sliding and that'll be "Classic 07: So close but so far away".

Offline ccexplore

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Re: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.
« Reply #11 on: June 14, 2019, 05:04:26 am »
I think Classic Tribe's total would be different as only one level comes to mind if using the Crawling/Y-Sliding and that'll be "Classic 07: So close but so far away".

Yeah, that sounds about right, I don't recall any other levels besides the 3 mentioned need any special glitches to save everyone.

For Classic 7, here's a reminder of the level (although it's written for Amiga version, I verified the stats and level layout are identical to DOS version).  Gold for that level allows for losing up to 4 actually.  A conventional solution almost certainly requires losing at least 2, possibly more depending on how many builders minimum you need to get up to the top.  The limited number of skills given and all that steel doesn't really leave much room for deviation when it comes to conventional solutions.  Maybe you can try and see what you can get for that level if crawling is not allowed.

Offline Name Invaild

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Re: So... I got around to playing 'Lemmings 2: The Tribes' via DOS.
« Reply #12 on: June 14, 2019, 11:53:16 am »
I think Classic Tribe's total would be different as only one level comes to mind if using the Crawling/Y-Sliding and that'll be "Classic 07: So close but so far away".

Yeah, that sounds about right, I don't recall any other levels besides the 3 mentioned need any special glitches to save everyone.

For Classic 7, here's a reminder of the level (although it's written for Amiga version, I verified the stats and level layout are identical to DOS version).  Gold for that level allows for losing up to 4 actually.  A conventional solution almost certainly requires losing at least 2, possibly more depending on how many builders minimum you need to get up to the top.  The limited number of skills given and all that steel doesn't really leave much room for deviation when it comes to conventional solutions.  Maybe you can try and see what you can get for that level if crawling is not allowed.

A Exploder is needed to be used at the beginning of the level, so that's one. The far left section you need a Blocker so they don't go off-screen so that's two. At that point you will have only four Builders left... one being used to reach the upper part of the terrain to make a Basher tunnel and three for the far left of the level with a Blocker on top.

It looks doable to have two Builders remaining for that left section but I'm unable to get the Lemming to build at the highest point of the third Builder bridge since the Blocker is on top... at most you'll miss is a one pixel height. Using another two Builders once he turns around at the Blocker and you'll reach the steel but with a five pixel ledge which is one pixel too high for them to climb up so you'll be left with one Builder which is needed for the exit. The Digger will have to be sacrificed so he doesn't dig all the way into the drink as well as another one to free the group of Lemmings.

If you could somehow save a Builder at that spot then most you'll lose is three Lemmings since you can stop the Digger with the spare Builder or free the group with it but it's a bit tricky due to the crowd, otherwise... four Lemmings are lost at that point.
« Last Edit: June 14, 2019, 06:30:35 pm by Name Invaild »