Oh No! More Challenges!

[LemSteven]

Mod Edit: This is the thread where you can submit challenges for individual levels. Have fun!

Restarting the challenge thread...

I've got a new one.  It's nowhere near as difficult as Clam Spammer's recent Tricky 28 challenge (which is insane even if you do know the trick involved), but it's still not a walk in the park, either:

Taxing 7 -- Save 97% (the minimum) using no more than 5 builders.  The level gives you six, so you'll have to find a way to save one of them.

[Clam]

Does that mean you've solved my Tricky 28 challenge?

Anyway, Taxing 7. I'll raise you one lemming - 98%.

In case anyone missed these, my challenge thread (with full challenge list in the first post) is here, and the old, old challenge thread () is here. I wonder if ccexplore has seen my challenges...

[The Doctor]

Man, I've been trying to see how many of these work on the PSP version. So far, sod all.

But still, makes the attempt that much more interesting.

[Dullstar]

Well, if only I remembered my old challenges...  BAH.
Well, there IS a ceiling route on Lemcon 1 in the genesis version, don't know about the others, though.

[LemSteven]

Does that mean you've solved my Tricky 28 challenge?

Well, yes and no.  I've made several attempts, and I know the trick that's involved, but I've only managed to get 97% instead of 98%.

Anyway, Taxing 7. I'll raise you one lemming - 98%.

Yeah, I should have seen that the first time.   I've got 98% on Taxing 7 now.

Another one that's not too difficult, yet highlights a major backroute of sorts:

Taxing 22 -- Save 100% using 1 digger and 5 builders.

[Dullstar]

Does that mean you've solved my Tricky 28 challenge?

Well, yes and no.  I've made several attempts, and I know the trick that's involved, but I've only managed to get 97% instead of 98%.

Would you be willing to tell me what that trick is?  I can't figure it out  .

[Clam]

Another one that's not too difficult, yet highlights a major backroute of sorts:

Taxing 22 -- Save 100% using 1 digger and 5 builders.

I like this one. VERY close to being doable with one less builder, but that seems to be out of reach.

Would you be willing to tell me what that trick is?  I can't figure it out  .

Well, it's not really the sort of thing you can figure out (unless you're ccexplore ). Is it time to start being open about glitches, rather than keeping them to ourselves just to mess with people?
Anyway, I posted this on the other forum just before it closed:

There are replays of some of the old challenge solutions on the Lemmings File Portal - you might be able to pick up some ideas from those.

[LemSteven]

Is it time to start being open about glitches, rather than keeping them to ourselves just to mess with people?

That would be my personal preference.  I think ccexplore is really the one who started the practice of keeping glitches secret.  I still don't know some of his glitches, to tell you the truth.

The only glitches I use regularly are the various bashing/mining/digging through steel glitches and the "Tame 20 glitch," in which a lemming that is trapped in a wall climbs up.

[Clam]

Looking through the old challenge thread, there's only one glitch that I don't know about (or perhaps do know but not by the same name), and that is Wild 15. I've seen a replay of this challenge, and I've found my own method of getting 48/50 on this level (hint: look at the steel objects - they're terribly placed), and for the life of me I can't see where the glitch is. ccexplore even mentioned the glitch again in that thread...

Anyway, I found out about many of these glitches by watching the challenge replays. Others I learned from the old challenge thread, or figured out from hints given therein. I'd recommend that anyone who desperately wants to know about the glitches does the same. ccexplore discovered them using some sort of debug tool (or something similar, I don't remember exactly). Like I said, you can't just find these things by looking for them.

[Adam]

I think openness about Glitches is a good thing - there are plenty of players who have no idea about the glitches. There are some fairly obvious glitches that most people know about, but there are also some less obvious glitches that very few people have heard of. If someone discovers a glitch, and chooses to mention it on the forum, I think they should also describe the glitch.

Maybe we should have a thread for glitches? That way, if people want to know about glitches before trying the challenges, they can have a look. At the same time, there are people who want to discover the glitches on their own. If there's a dedicated thread for glitches, those folk will be able to avoid the thread like the plague!

[geoo]

Would you be willing to tell me what that trick is?  I can't figure it out  .

Well, it's not really the sort of thing you can figure out (unless you're ccexplore ). Is it time to start being open about glitches, rather than keeping them to ourselves just to mess with people?
Anyway, I posted this on the other forum just before it closed:

There are replays of some of the old challenge solutions on the Lemmings File Portal - you might be able to pick up some ideas from those.

Well, as far as I know, ccexplore discovered that glitch by using a disassembly of the game, while I stubled across it by chance.
But it is not a secret, in fact, ccexplore publicly released a tutorial level for that glitch that precisely gives you instructions how to trigger it. If I recall correctly, it was released in this thread: http://camanis.net/lemmings/lemmingswelt/forums/?topic=1135291547 So @Dullstar, just search for it, once in the level, you will encounter the glitch.

Actually, I found the Tricky 28 one of the easier challenges of yours, ClamSpammer. Trivial to figure out, and not really difficult to execute (at least with Lemmix, it took me perhaps 15 minutes). The level is really as if it was designed for this solution, so you get sufficient builders left over to make timing rather easy to execute.
I still have to examine most of your other challenges some time.

As for the Wild 15 glitch, I'm pretty certain you know it. I wouldn't even call it a glitch at all, as it's pretty much expected behaviour if you consider that blockers turn lemmings around no matter what they are doing. (I was also kind of disappointed after being told about it Didn't know it for long either.)

[LemSteven]

As for the Wild 15 glitch, I'm pretty certain you know it. I wouldn't even call it a glitch at all, as it's pretty much expected behaviour if you consider that blockers turn lemmings around no matter what they are doing. (I was also kind of disappointed after being told about it Didn't know it for long either.)

Does this mean the Wild 15 glitch simply involves a blocker turning around a digger so that when he stops digging he walks in the opposite direction that he started out in?  I knew that for a while (having stumbled upon it by accident once when trying for 100% on Crazy 1).  On the other hand, I can't see how that would help save 96% on that level.  I have saved 96% on that level once, but the only blockers I used were strictly for crowd control, and they were later freed with a basher.

Also, based on Clam Spammer's hint about the steel a few posts up, it appears that my 96% solution differs from his.  Mine is based heavily on Guest's post from August 29 in the old thread, with some release rate modifications that eliminate the need for a blocker/bomber on the left side for crowd control.  It really has nothing to do with misplaced steel areas, other than the fact that it uses the well-known "dig through the last pixel of steel" trick in the end.

The other glitch that I never really learned about was something to the effect of having a blocker's effect linger even after blowing him up.  I have no idea how you would pull that off...

[Clam]

Well, as far as I know, ccexplore discovered that glitch by using a disassembly of the game, while I stubled across it by chance.
But it is not a secret, in fact, ccexplore publicly released a tutorial level for that glitch that precisely gives you instructions how to trigger it. If I recall correctly, it was released in this thread: http://camanis.net/lemmings/lemmingswelt/forums/?topic=1135291547 So @Dullstar, just search for it, once in the level, you will encounter the glitch.

I first saw this one in a replay of Mayhem 10 (Pillars of Hercules). I've seen the tutorial level too. By the way, what exactly is a "disassembly"?

Does this mean the Wild 15 glitch simply involves a blocker turning around a digger so that when he stops digging he walks in the opposite direction that he started out in?  I knew that for a while (having stumbled upon it by accident once when trying for 100% on Crazy 1).  On the other hand, I can't see how that would help save 96% on that level.

That one? Yeah, I know about it - in fact I discovered it while playtesting one of my own levels (Dig This!). I can't see any use for it on Wild 15 either...

The other glitch that I never really learned about was something to the effect of having a blocker's effect linger even after blowing him up.  I have no idea how you would pull that off...

Another wonderfully accidental discovery for me . I've posted regarding my experiences with this one (and related glitches) before, quite recently in fact.

EDIT: Glitch thread is now open. Check it out - at your own risk, of course.

[geoo]

I can't say with 100% certainty that this (what LemSteven described) is indeed the Wild 15 glitch, but the pretty clear evidence makes me assume that it is.
A possible use I can see for it is right at the beginning creating a large area for the Lemmings to walk back and forth within, possibly making some timing doable there. But I don't know it either.

[...] By the way, what exactly is a "disassembly"?

From what I know, ccexplore reverse-engineered the lemmings binary to some point, thus being able to view the assembly code, and interpreted it to get knowledge about the programming of the game engine and its mechanics.

The other glitch that I never really learned about was something to the effect of having a blocker's effect linger even after blowing him up.  I have no idea how you would pull that off...

Another wonderfully accidental discovery for me . I've posted regarding my experiences with this one (and related glitches) before, quite recently in fact.

A fun thing is that with a very special setup, you can also achieve the exact opposite effect: having a blocker standing around, but without its blocking field thus having the Lemmings just walk past it.

[Clam]

A fun thing is that with a very special setup, you can also achieve the exact opposite effect: having a blocker standing around, but without its blocking field thus having the Lemmings just walk past it.

Awesome. I'd love to hear all about it.

[Dullstar]

Glitch Thread?  I'm gonna check it out, I couldn't find anything on those forums.

[geoo]

A fun thing is that with a very special setup, you can also achieve the exact opposite effect: having a blocker standing around, but without its blocking field thus having the Lemmings just walk past it.

Awesome. I'd love to hear all about it.

Heh, you know it already. Why didn't you add it yourself to the glitch list you provided yet?
What I described is just a variation of it.

I wonder whether it's possible to design a level that allows the player to find out that glitch on his own...I think I might give that a try whenever I have time (which means likely not before the end of next week ).

[Clam]

Just figured it out

Anyway, I'm trying to encourage some discussion about glitches, rather than just making a list. That's why I haven't posted all the ones I know yet.

[Dullstar]

Posting some of the challenges from the old thread:

Dullstar:

Fun 15:  Don't let your eyes deceive you:
3 diggers, 8 builders, 2 bashers, 100%
Fun 16:  Don't do anything too hasty:
Builders, bashers, 2 diggers, 1 climber, 100%
Fun 20:  We are now at Lemcon 1:
Builders, 2 climbers, 2 bashers, 1 digger.

More later.
If a skill is listed, but no limit for it, you can use as many as the level gives you.

Tame Challenges
Tame 1:  2 bombers
Tame 2:  1 basher, 1 climber, 1 blocker, 1 bomber***
Tame 3:  9 blockers, 9 bombers***
Tame 4:  2 bombers, 5 builders, 1 digger
Tame 5:  5 bombers, 2 blockers***
Tame 6:  3 blockers, 8 bombers***
Tame 7:  1 climber, 1 basher, 1 builder, 2 miners, 1 digger, 100%
Tame 8:  2 bombers, 1 minute
Tame 9:  1 climber, 1 bomber, 1 basher
Tame 10: 1 builder, 3 blockers, 3 bombers***
Tame 11:  5 bombers, 1 basher
Tame 12:  Climbers (in case of stuck lemmings), 4 Bombers, 1 builder
Tame 13:  All skills as needed, 100%, no lemmings "lagging" lemmings
Tame 14:  Builders and Bashers ONLY, 100%
Tame 15:  3 Builders, 2 Miners, 1 Climber, 1 Digger, 100%
Tame 16:  1 Builder, 2 Bombers, 1 minute and 30 seconds
Tame 17:  2 bombers, 40 seconds
Tame 18:  3 blockers, 3 bombers, 1 miner, 1 basher***
Tame 19:  10 bombers
Tame 20:  2 bombers, 4 builders, release rate greater than or equal to 50

***For harder challenge, remove blockers.  In the case of Tame 3, this MAY make more bombers needed.

Versions:
Verified:  Lemmix, DOSBox
Bogus: None so far

These are just mine, though.  If you want your challenges here on this site, post them yourself or ask me.

[Clam]

From my question in the quiz thread that no one has managed to answer yet:

Fun 30 (Lock up your Lemmings).

You have one second from the time the first lemming appears to assign all the skills you need to pass this level.



And an unrelated challenge, which I've long thought to be possible but only just managed to pull off:

Crazy 10 (ROCKY VI) - Pass the level without letting any lemmings fall to the lower floor. Consider it a "ceiling route", if you will.

[Dullstar]

That's one I haven't heard of before.  I always though Lock up Your Lemmings/All or Nothing took longer than that.

[Clam]

Well the usual All or Nothing solution takes longer to execute, of course. The one second window only gives you enough time for the first basher.

[Dullstar]

Eh?  So the Lock up Your Lemmings (how I always did it) doesn't work for 1 second?  That's quite amazing.  O_o.

[Clam]

I don't see what's so amazing about that. One second isn't very long, you know (even if the game timer does stretch it a little).

I've just run a quick test. With perfect execution, it takes about 3 and a half seconds to reach the second platform, and 8 seconds to get to the lower right platform if you do the standard three bashers solution. That's from the time the first lemming appears on the screen.

[ccexplore]

That would be my personal preference.  I think ccexplore is really the one who started the practice of keeping glitches secret.  I still don't know some of his glitches, to tell you the truth.

  Although actually, I don't believe I started off that way.  I clearly remember explaining a few glitches for some of the challenge solutions, like the 17/21 solution for Havoc 10.  For the most part, I think I only kept some glitches secret in case I want to make some levels around it later on, and kept a few to give people a chance at figuring out the challenge solution or something.

In any case, it's clear that I still haven't made any new levels in a while, and I really have no problem at this point with sharing glitches.  In fact, I think some people like geoo89 more or less knows about all of them at this point.  If there's any challenge solutions from the old old thread that people are still wondering about, I'm happy to provide a Lemmix replay + any explanations you need.

[ccexplore]

Looking through the old challenge thread, there's only one glitch that I don't know about (or perhaps do know but not by the same name), and that is Wild 15. I've seen a replay of this challenge, and I've found my own method of getting 48/50 on this level (hint: look at the steel objects - they're terribly placed), and for the life of me I can't see where the glitch is. ccexplore even mentioned the glitch again in that thread...

I'm not even sure if some people considered that a glitch.  It's been a while, but if I remember correctly, the solution I have in mind involves on the left side of the level, having a lemming facing left starts digging, then once he's dig deep enough, turn another lemming in the pit into a blocker left of the digger.  What will happen is this:

1) the blocker will actually change the digger to face right, even though you don't see the effect right away.
2) the digger in turn will free the blocker as it continues to dig.

Then now when I make the digger bash, it will bash to the right as I wanted, and not to the left.

The reason to do it like that, and not using a blocker at the start to make the lemming faces right before digging, is because I also need the freed blocker not to head left.  With the digger having created a deep enough pit, I ensure the freed blocker doesn't go in the wrong direction.

I specifically kept this one under wraps because at the time, I was hoping to create a custom level called something like "teach an old blocker new tricks", which features all the interesting interactions between blockers and other skills.  But now you know the secret.

I believe I still have the Lemmix replay for this Wild 15 solution, if I find it I'm happy to post it.

[ccexplore]

Posting some of the challenges from the old thread:

This list seems a bit short, and I don't think I want to go through the old thread.  It would be really great if someone can compile a current list of known challengs from the old thread to this thread, starting with what the "Tricky 28 challenge" is.

[Clam]

Those were just his own challenges. There's a link to my challenge list in my sig. (EDIT: I've removed this link. You can find the list in my old challenge thread here. Note that some of these challenges have since been superseded...)

I think I've pretty much covered the old thread (for the DOS version at least), except for Wicked 7.
Thanks for clearing up the Wild 15 thing. We won't die wondering

[DragonsLover]

Here are the challenges I have posted straight before the old site closed down :

Crazy 18 : 100% to be saved (tough, but possible)
Crazy 19 : 100% to be saved (once you know what to do, it's a piece of cake)

[ccexplore]

Thanks, but the 100% challenges have more or less been done to death when I was around doing most of them in the old old forums. I have to say, some of ClamSpammer's new challenges make my old ones look like Tame 1 by comparison.

[Clam]

Welcome back DragonsLover! 

Thanks, but the 100% challenges have more or less been done to death when I was around doing most of them in the old old forums.

Hence my instruction to check the old thread before posting. 

I never would have made up most of these challenges were it not for Lemmix. Having such a convenient playtesting tool means we can push the envelope quite a bit further than was (reasonably) possible in the past. But don't worry - nothing is ever going to make your Havoc 10 solution look like Tame 1. 

[LemSteven]

I have another challenge:

Fun 12:  Pass the level without using any bombers, builders, bashers, or miners.  Also, only one blocker is allowed.
Hint (highlight to read):  Think "A.T."

[Dullstar]

Let me guess.  Uses a glitch...

[ccexplore]

Fun 12:  Pass the level without using any bombers, builders, bashers, or miners.  Also, only one blocker is allowed.

Can you post your number/percentage of lemmings saved in your challenge?  That way we can try working on improving the challenge in that manner.  For example, I'm currently looking into ClamSpammer's Tricky 28 challenge and while I haven't worked out everything in detail, I still think 100% should be possible in his challenge.

[Clam]

Let me guess.  Uses a glitch...

You'll be pleased to know that it doesn't.

I'm currently looking into ClamSpammer's Tricky 28 challenge and while I haven't worked out everything in detail, I still think 100% should be possible in his challenge.

Now you mention it, this does seem to be a possibility. In my original solution, I used a blocker because it was a very convenient way of keeping the lemmings under control.

And may I suggest 68/80 (85%) as a starting point for Fun 12?

[LemSteven]

And may I suggest 68/80 (85%) as a starting point for Fun 12?

That's probably about right for the maximum possible.  I got 81% on my first successful attempt, which I know can be improved on. 

I didn't specify a percentage because I wanted to leave it somewhat open.  Once you get as far as passing the level with the given restrictions, you've got the right idea.  Although admittedly, 50% would be pretty poor because you'd have to make a mistake somewhere to lose 40 lemmings.  I'd set a general target of 75-80%, with anything over 80% being bonus for optimizing the method.

[Clam]

I can now confirm...

It IS possible to get 100% in my Tricky 28 challenge!

The next step () is to try to minimise the number of climbers used to get 100%, or equivalently, find out how many you can save without climbers (or, almost equivalently, with builders only). My current solution uses 4 climbers to tidy up at the end - and, interestingly, leaves a spare builder.

[ccexplore]

Good job!   I'm actually kinda glad I don't have to spend too much further time on working out a 100% solution, although I might still try to finish what I was working on and see how my solution work out (as well as making it possible to compare with your solution).

I doubt I'll take the next step, given that I was counting on having the 4 or so climbers to help "tidy up".  Without climbers, you're left with only floaters, RR changes, and maybe the spare builder or two to influence how to compress the lemmings together, and looks like it would take a lot more experimentation to work things out.

[Dullstar]

Could someone send me a replay of the Tricky 28 challenge in Lemmix?

[ccexplore]

If/when I manage it myself for 100%, I'll upload a Lemmix replay on Lemmings Archive.

[Clam]

I can upload it now if you like.

[Dullstar]

That would be great.  Once it's there, post a download link!

[Clam]

I've uploaded my original 79/80 solution, which used a blocker, as well as my new 100% solution.

Here they are.

If you want a better look at the glitch in action, I recommend the Mayhem 10 replays which are also on this page.

[Dullstar]

That was awesome.  I never even knew that was possible.

[Clam]

Now don't go calling my other challenges bogus


Here's a couple more for you:

Tricky 27: 100% with 2 builders.

Wild 10: No diggers. My solution saves 72/80, or 90%, I doubt it's possible to get any more.


I'll probably leave Tricky 28 too at this point. I really don't think it's worthwhile trying to improve on it any more.

[ccexplore]

Good job!   I'm actually kinda glad I don't have to spend too much further time on working out a 100% solution, although I might still try to finish what I was working on and see how my solution work out (as well as making it possible to compare with your solution).

I decided to go through with my ideas anyway, and my Tricky 28 solution ends up saving 100% using 10 builders and 2 climbers.  I've uploaded the Lemmix replay here.  (A floater was used in the replay only so I can more easily keep track of which climber is the one I want to turn into a builder; it is obviously optional.)

My major "mistake" in doing this challenge is that my mindset was too focused on create a small holding area to compress the lemmings, when instead one could achieve the same thing starting with a much larger holding area, like ClamSpammer's solution.  ClamSpammer's solution give much more flexability in controlling the spacing between lemmings (through RR changes), making a 1-climber solution much more likely (and probably less difficult to work out) with his way.

[EricLang]

I think it would be a good idea (when Lemmix Custom is finished) to add a "challenge" sections (the number of sections can be 99) to new or existing levelpacks.

[Clam]

I decided to go through with my ideas anyway, and my Tricky 28 solution ends up saving 100% using 10 builders and 2 climbers.

Very nice 


So they don't get lost at the bottom of the last page, I'll post my new challenges again. I might also put my recent challenges into a single post at the start of the thread like I did before.

Tricky 27: 100% with 2 builders.
Wild 10: No diggers.

I wonder if a 1-builder solution to Tricky 27 might be possible with a bit of steel digging - not with 100%, obviously, because of the general lack of skills.

EDIT: 77/80 is definitely possible with 1 builder, it may be possible to improve this to 78.

EDIT 2: 78 is almost certainly possible, but I'll have to go back to the start to fix my replay

[Clam]

I've just found another very powerful use for the "blocker cancelling steel" glitch. This means the 78/80 solution turns out to be much easier than expected, and won't require me to go back to the start. However, to go for 79/80 (which I'm now convinced is possible), it looks like I will have to start over and find a way to save a digger. My current solution is quite poor in this regard, so it shouldn't be difficult.

100% with only 1 builder seems to be out of reach, since the restrictive skillset means at least one bomber will be needed to get up to the exit.


EDIT: I struck a few complications with the skill limits, but now 79/80 is confirmed as well.

[LemSteven]

I've got one here that is loosely based on the "1 of each skill" thread, but modifies it slightly to fit the skills in the actual game:

Havoc 4:  Save 100% using 2 builders, 2 bashers, and a digger.

[Clam]

Interesting. This seems to be slightly more problematic than the "one of each" challenge. In the end, it amounts to much the same thing though (as one would expect).


I just remembered something - in the previous thread, I posted my Xmas Lemmings records, and said some of them were "challenge-worthy". I didn't mention which ones, so I will do so now:

Flurry 16 - 49/50 (98%)
Blitz 13 - 70/70 (100%)
Frost 14 - 44/50 (88%)
Hail 5 - 80/80 (100%)

These may be the last straight max % challenges you'll see for the original levels, so have fun

[Clam]

I've found another tough challenge based on the steel-cancelling glitch.

Mayhem 18 - 8 builders. The level requires 72/80 to pass, though it's definitely possible to save one more than that.

You may recall that this level was the subject of one of my earlier "builders only" challenges

[ccexplore]

Hail 6 - lose 40 (PLEASE do not try to improve on this unless you can set up some sort of computer simulation. It's pointless.)

Turns out it's not pointless, and you don't need computer simulation to make an improvement on this.

I've now achieved losing only 34 (so 46 saved = 57%).  Moreover, it's provably the maximum solution possible for this level.

Attached is the replay for my solution (Hail6_save46.zip), as well as a replay that helps illustrate why lose 34 is the best you can do (Hail6_UBound.zip).  Hail6_save46.zip also includes a text file explaining the overall strategy behind my solution, to show that you don't need any computer simulations to arrive at it (as long as you know the relation between RR and spacing).  Hail6_UBound.zip contains level file Hail6_UBound.lvl, a modified version of the level to help show why lose 34 is almost certainly the optimum.

The proof that lose 34 is the best you can do is to slightly modify the level so that you have more time and lower minimum RR, which makes it possible to set up the lemmings so that when the first explosion occurs, everyone is compressed to a single location directly above the exit, so all the lemmings have to do is just fall directly to the exit.  In this clearly optimal setup, you still lose 34, and the reason is clearly because those lemmings all exploded before they could finish the fall to the exit.

[Clam]

O_o


You, sir, are a genius. Never again will I view a theoretically possible lemmings challenge as pointless. And thank you for ignoring my warnings and diving into this.

The proof that this is the maximum possible is obvious. The only reason I didn't try it is that, as I said in the previous thread, I thought it was pointless.


You know what this means? We can now work out the total number of lemmings lost over all the original DOS games

The total number lost over the Xmas levels is 56 - two of those are in an ONML preview level (Crazy 14), so really it's only 54. Now, if anyone remembers (or can be bothered to find on the old forums) the numbers for Original and ONML, we can put them together to arrive at the grand total. This really is a momentous occasion - but a sad one as well...

Will we ever rescue another lemming?

[Fleech]

I've (rather sadly) got a spreadsheet with all that sort of information in. Assuming no typos and that none of the records have improved since I last regularly visited the forums:

Lemmings: lose 55
(Oh No!): lose 82
Xmas: lose 54

TOTAL: lose 191 (out of 17189 - using DOS version with 80 lem limit)


Aside from that, I had a go at those Xmas challenges. I'd already done Blizzard 13 but I'm one lem away with all the others and struggling. Any chance of some replays at some point?

EDIT: I've just watched ccexplore's replay. Brilliant!

EDIT: Updated the totals.

[LemSteven]

Lemmings: lose 60

I'm pretty sure that number is a bit too high.  Here is the breakdown:

Fun 3:  Lose 3
Fun 6:  Lose 2
Fun 18:  Lose 5
Tricky 15:  Lose 3
Tricky 16:  Lose 4
Tricky 17:  Lose 2
Tricky 18:  Lose 1
Tricky 23:  Lose 1
Taxing 7:  Lose 1
Taxing 19:  Lose 5
Taxing 27:  Lose 3
Taxing 28:  Lose 10
Mayhem 5:  Lose 4
Mayhem 10:  Lose 2
Mayhem 19:  Lose 3
Mayhem 26:  Lose 4
Mayhem 29:  Lose 2

Total:  Lose 55

The only scores I have not accomplished myself are Mayhem 2 (100%) and Mayhem 10.  So my best personal score is Lose 57.

Anyway, this would bring the total figure down to 193.

[Fleech]

Ah right thanks. I had Taxing 28 down as lose 15 in my sheet instead of lose 10.

[Clam]

Aside from that, I had a go at those Xmas challenges. I'd already done Blizzard 13 but I'm one lem away with all the others and struggling. Any chance of some replays at some point?

I have the replays, but firstly I'll give a few pointers as to how the solutions came about:

Frost 14 requires some very counterintuitive timing - the best solution doesn't come from trying to get over the gaps as quickly as possible. My solution here actually ended up with a lemming stuck in the bottom part of the second "9", so I can't say for sure that this is the maximum possible percentage for the level.

Flurry 16 has some tricky timing as well, which takes some experimentation to work out. More important here though is placement. It pays to know exactly how far a lemming can fall without splatting.

Hail 5 uses a clever trick. My solution comes from building from the top of the spike, but looking at it again, it does seem to be possible by building up from the ground as well. Again, it pays to know the safe-fall distance.
EDIT: It definitely is possible to do this by building up from the ground. Which, come to think of it, makes this solution quite easy.

[LemSteven]

This isn't exactly a new challenge, but I've found an easier way to execute 100% on Wicked 6 (PoP TiL YoU DrOp!) than what ccexplore described back on the Lemmingswelt forums.  Let me explain by first describing what ccexplore did:

Back on the old Lemmingswelt forums, ccexplore (then known as "Guest") posted a challenge to save 98% on Wicked 6 in ONML without using any bombers.  The thing that kept this solution from getting 100% was the fact that the who clears the path to the exit falls too far, while the walkers are saved. 

Later, ccexplore successfully improved the challenge to 100% by brilliantly making the miner block just before he falls.  Assuming the miner started in the right place, the blocker would be standing on nothing (due to a now well-known miner glitch) and would simply fall.  This allowed the lemming to be saved just like the other walkers.  Unfortunately, in order to get the trick to work right, the miner needs to start in an exact position, and several builders are needed to reach this position and to keep the miner going all the way to the exit.

What I did was I went back to the old no-bomber 98% solution, but tweaked it in the end to save the miner.  Just as the miner was about to fall (which would result in his death), I made him build.  He laid down three bricks before hitting his head and turning around.  I then had the very next walker build from the edge of the last brick.  This placed the edge of the bridge directly over the exit, so the lemmings could all drop down and exit using the direct drop trick.

I found this solution much easier to execute than ccexplore's method.  Plus, it uses just five builders on the right side, which leaves seven builders for the left side.  Although ccexplore has shown that the left side can be done with as few as three builders, the extra ones make the execution easier and even leaves some room for error (i.e. wasting a builder won't ruin the attempt).

I suppose the only bad thing about this new method is the reliance on the direct drop trick.

[ccexplore]

I've found an easier way to execute 100% on Wicked 6 (PoP TiL YoU DrOp!) than what ccexplore described back on the Lemmingswelt forums.

Good job!

But I'm a little surprised that it only takes 5 builders on the right side.  (That said, I haven't looked at that level in ages, so maybe it's obvious when you get down to sketching out all the possible miner routes.)  Does that include the two builders you need at the end to deal with the miner?  Did you use more than one miner on the right side?  I think seeing a replay of your solution might be interesting.

I guess one concern with your solution is how easy or difficult it is to make sure no lemmings overtake the miner while it's building.  Although with all those spare builders available maybe it's not a problem at all.

I suppose the only bad thing about this new method is the reliance on the direct drop trick.

Other than that not working on some versions (eg. Amiga), the direct drop trick is at least less strange than the miner glitch.  Hardly a "bad thing" in my book.

[ccexplore]

Frost 14 requires some very counterintuitive timing - the best solution doesn't come from trying to get over the gaps as quickly as possible. My solution here actually ended up with a lemming stuck in the bottom part of the second "9", so I can't say for sure that this is the maximum possible percentage for the level.

I just tried out the level and it didn't take long for me to work out a lose-5 solution.  It must be a fairly different approach from what you're doing, since in my solution you have to do it on purpose to get any lemmings to the bottom part of the "9" next to the "5".  That said, my solution cannot be improved, whereas not knowing exactly what your solution is, maybe yours might have a chance to do better than lose-5?

I'll give it a day before uploading the replay, since it's almost, well, straightforward.  (Not to say that it's obvious, since it's definitely not likely a solution that comes to mind when you first look at the terrain.  Your comment about not trying to get over the gaps as soon as possible still applies.)

[edit: replay attached]

[Fleech]

Cheers for the hints re. the Xmas levels. I'm off to experiment.

[LemSteven]

I'm a little surprised that it only takes 5 builders on the right side.  (That said, I haven't looked at that level in ages, so maybe it's obvious when you get down to sketching out all the possible miner routes.)  Does that include the two builders you need at the end to deal with the miner?  Did you use more than one miner on the right side?

I used five builders and two miners to save the right two entrances, and I used used pretty much the same to get the left two entrances to join them.

Using the picture from The Lemmings Encyclopedia (I couldn't find a better one), I'm going to number the entrances 1-4 going from left to right.



First, a lemming from entrance 3 mined right at a certain place.  He landed in the space below the space between entrances 3 & 4, but not before removing a lot of terrain near the ceiling.  It then required only three builders to make a passage for the next miner.  Next, a lemming from entrance 4 mined (also in a certain place).  Using the bridges built earlier, he would continue mining all the way to the exit.  He ended up in a position similar to where the last miner is in the picture above.  As this miner was taking his last stroke, I had him build, preparing me to set up the direct drop trick.

As for the left side, I was left with seven builders, two blockers, and two miners.  I ended up getting it to work with five builders and two miners, although not exactly easily.  I had a lemming from entrance 1 mine near the right side of his space, and then I placed a miner in a certain spot so that he both freed entrance 2 and could get down to join the others with as little difficulty as possible.  Unfortunately, this required me to start the miner on a build brick, and it takes several builders to reach the desired position.

The miner was just high enough to free entrance 2, but unfortunately was still a bit too high, and he stops mining near the bottom of the space below entrance 2.  Fortunately, some lemmings can enter the space ahead of the miner due to the way the terrain is set up, and they can quickly prepare a route for him by filling the bottom-left corner of this space so that the miner can get through.

Despite the pixel-perfect positioning of several features, the solution is surprisingly not too difficult to pull off.  The hardest part for me is laying down the bricks in the space below entrance 2 quickly enough before the miner got there.

Sorry I don't have a replay to show.  Hopefully the picture and explanation will make it somewhat clearer.

[Clam]

I just tried out the level and it didn't take long for me to work out a lose-5 solution.  It must be a fairly different approach from what you're doing, since in my solution you have to do it on purpose to get any lemmings to the bottom part of the "9" next to the "5".  That said, my solution cannot be improved, whereas not knowing exactly what your solution is, maybe yours might have a chance to do better than lose-5?

I just figured out what you did. I can't believe I never noticed that before.

I strongly doubt it's possible to improve on my lose 6 solution - it took some serious refinement even to get that far.

[Dullstar]

In response to another thread, I think it should be pointed out that this is a more appropriate way to say you beat a challenge than starting a new thread.

By the way, what happened to this thread anyways?  Has everyone gotten that caught up into the specific challenge threads?  You can still do generic challenges here, you know.

[Clam]

Pretty much. I think it's nice to have some direction though. It's not that easy to just invent challenges.

That said, since I discovered that Crazy 13 can be done with 4 skills, I've found a way to refine my challenge for that level (which turned out to be far too easy " title="Angry" class="smiley" />). So...

Crazy 13 - 19/20 (95%) without the climber or floater, and with one miner only. In other words, an optimisation of the 4-skills solution.

[Clam]

Now for a couple of brand new challenges 

Tame 13: Pass the level (50%) with 1 builder.
Flurry 7: 100% with no bashers.

[Minim]

Tame 13: Pass the level (50%) with 1 builder.

How did you manage to do that? I only managed to get 2% with 2 builders (Sorry, I shouldn't say 2 builders )

[Clam]

By exploiting glitches, of course

That said, the Flurry 7 challenge is completely glitch-free. (Which means it's probably not difficult.)

[Minim]

OK then. I did use only one glitch for my attempt on Tame 13 before you replied but I suppose you need a different glitch. It's hard to complete the level even with 2 builders

[Minim]

Right. Here another challenge: Tame 16, pass with one basher, without using any miners, diggers or bombers. No glitches either.

[Proxima]

Right. Here another challenge: Tame 16, pass with one basher, without using any miners, diggers or bombers. No glitches either.

Challenge improved: same conditions, save 100%.

[GigaLem]

I thougt of another way to mayhem 25- Have a nice day
    (Btw i completed Mayhem level 30)
        Im sooooo proud of my self

[Minim]

There are about 3 ways to do Mayhem 25, here's a solution I've found. This is also my solution to one of my levels: Stolen Goods

Let the first lemming build to the wall (One lemming will die) then set a blocker on the left of the platform. Make someone an athlete. Build to the right wall and turn around. Build to the left (Leaving no gaps) to create a safety bridge for the other lemmings. Let him climb to the next gap and build over it. Now let the other lemmings dig the stair and build over the right wall.

Did this solution match your solution, Giga?

[namida]

While this is part of one of my challenge topics, I'm posting it seperately here because I think it's worthy of challenge status.

The challenge:

Complete Crazy 8, "Keep On Trucking", without assigning skills to any lemming that has already been previously assigned any skill. (The required % is good enough to be considered as passing this challenge.)


AND, another challenge, which  isn't part of any current challenge topic:

Complete Fun 26, "Nightmare on Lem Street", while only giving skills to one of the lemmings. It's up to you which one you give them to,  but you can only give them to one. This includes climbers and floaters! (I can completely understand why some may think this one's impossible, but I've got a replay I can provide if anyone seriously wants to question it. To be honest, I would be very surprised if anyone other than ccexplore can complete this challenge.)

[Proxima]

Complete Fun 26, "Nightmare on Lem Street", while only giving skills to one of the lemmings. It's up to you which one you give them to,  but you can only give them to one. This includes climbers and floaters! (I can completely understand why some may think this one's impossible, but I've got a replay I can provide if anyone seriously wants to question it. To be honest, I would be very surprised if anyone other than ccexplore can complete this challenge.)

I completed it. I'm afraid I don't think it's nearly as tough as you made it sound.

[Fleech]

I've just completed that one as well.

[ccexplore]

Indeed, you can do this even on the cloned level (Mayhem 13 "The Great Lemming Caper") without much difficulty.

[Proxima]

Damn, I thought that might be possible -- after all, the beginning of my solution to the challenge isn't at all far off the way I originally solved Mayhem 13 -- but I couldn't see how to get it to work with only two builders. Can you give us a hint?

[ccexplore]

Well first off, let's make sure we're in fact handling the beginning of the solution the same way:

Just repeatedly and rapidly alternate assigning digger and miner to the first lemming out, to quickly lower him such that he can mine low enough to turn the second lemming around, who will end up trapped on the left side of the level.

It's of note that because of the miner positioning glitch (the same underlying one that is involved in Wicked 6 100% for example), you can go down more quickly alternating digger and miner than if you don't use the miner in your skills alternation).

Once you handle the beginning my way, I think the rest should be relatively obvious.  After all, you only need the 2 builders to keep yourself and your other lemming from falling to the bottom part of the level.  Here's one more hint:

Dig down a bit before you use your first builder.

[Proxima]

Solved!

The only thing I'd been doing wrong is, I thought you would have to two miner strokes before starting digging to make the pit asymmetrical enough for the second lemming to actually get out the other side. Turns out that's not the case.

And now I may as well explain what I meant about the similarity to the first solution I found to this level, way back when:

Exactly the same, except that when the second lemming turned round I made him bash or mine down to the holding area, then made him a climber in the end.

[GigaLem]

Did this solution match your solution, Giga?

Im afaid not

First let the frist lemming be a floater
Next build from the stairs
then keep building to the finish

[namida]

w00t, I finally managed 100% on Taxing 6.

[Minim]

Maybe you used a glitch for it, and I think I know what that might be...

[Dullstar]

Solutions that involve glitches tend to be a pain. 

[Minim]

That's just you, Dullstar, because you can't execute as many glitches as the other guys I can tell.

OK, try this one. Tame 13, 100% with 3 builders (nothing else) and 2 minutes.

[Proxima]

No, it's not just him -- ask ccexplore some time how much I ranted against glitch solutions on the old forums.

No-one wanted to try my Tame 16 challenge? I found it quite fun, but I guess for most people here it would just be trivial....

[ccexplore]

No, it's not just him -- ask ccexplore some time how much I ranted against glitch solutions on the old forums.

I thought you were objecting more to custom levels that rely solely on glitches for difficulty, because it becomes an "unfair" situation where the level would be easy if you know the glitch and impossible if you don't.  Of course, there is now a glitch thread, so at least that mitigates the "impossible" part I guess.  I think Dullstar is objecting more to the difficulty in execution of some of the glitches.

It's good to keep in mind that it's not like we go out of the way to include as many glitches as possible, just that if we're talking about challenge solutions, sometimes the only way to do them is via glitches.  And just because you know a glitch doesn't mean it'd make a challenge any easier to work out and execute.  geoo89's recent 1-builder 100% Tame 13 solution is a perfect example.  I think you'd also find plenty of challenge solutions we've presented that don't rely on glitches, actually.

No-one wanted to try my Tame 16 challenge? I found it quite fun, but I guess for most people here it would just be trivial....

I'm afraid that since the challenge doesn't say anything about builders, it does seem rather unremarkable given that there are a number of other levels solvable with the same solution concept.  Do feel free to correct me though if there's some hidden subtle difficulty I've overlooked, or if I misread the conditions of the challenge.

[namida]

I thougt of another way to mayhem 25- Have a nice day
    (Btw i completed Mayhem level 30)
        Im sooooo proud of my self

Mayhem 30 isn't a challenge, it's piss easy. Mayhem 29 is the one to get excited over beating.

[Fernito]

Fun 3:  Lose 3
Fun 6:  Lose 2
Fun 18:  Lose 5
Tricky 15:  Lose 3
Tricky 16:  Lose 4
Tricky 17:  Lose 2
Tricky 18:  Lose 1
Tricky 23:  Lose 1
Taxing 7:  Lose 1
Taxing 19:  Lose 5
Taxing 27:  Lose 3
Taxing 28:  Lose 10
Mayhem 5:  Lose 4
Mayhem 10:  Lose 2
Mayhem 19:  Lose 3
Mayhem 26:  Lose 4
Mayhem 29:  Lose 2

Sorry for asking about this in this thread, but I didn't want to create a new thread for such a small question: how can you save 78/80 in Mayhem 29 (my favorite level in the game, for some reason)? haha, I was so proud of my 76/80 solution... does it involve a glitch? I'm totally clueless about how you made it.

PS: A hint would be nice, to see if I'm able to figure it out by myself

[LemSteven]

Ah, yes.  Lose 2 on Mayhem 29 is insanely difficult to pull off, but I have managed to do it a couple of times.  Here are a few hints:

1.  You have to build left from the start, but you have to start as low as possible.
2.  Some of the various steel glitches are used on the starting platform.

Highlight to read the remaining hints:

3.  The broken pillar obstacle is cleared using only a digger and a builder.
4.  All of the blockers used on the starting platform are saved by bashing underneath.
5.  The only two lemmings lost are the two blockers at the very end.  The hardest part is getting the first two lemmings spaced far enough apart and sufficiently ahead of the crowd to do the last part.

This was actually one of the few max % records that I was the first to get on these forums.  I think 100% on Havoc 16 is the other one.

[ccexplore]

haha, I was so proud of my 76/80 solution...

Interesting you call it "your" solution...just curious, are you Don P. Fortier, aka "LemMaster Don" from alt.lemmings?  Because it sounded like he was the guy who first found the 76/80 solution for Mayhem 29.

[Fernito]

haha, I was so proud of my 76/80 solution...

Interesting you call it "your" solution...just curious, are you Don P. Fortier, aka "LemMaster Don" from alt.lemmings?  Because it sounded like he was the guy who first found the 76/80 solution for Mayhem 29.

Well, I called it "my solution", but surely I'm not the first. Actually, I got the idea of building to the left from some guy called dfoofnik on YouTube. Figured the rest out by myself, but he gave me the biggest clue

As for Don P. Fortier, no, I'm not him. But, now that you mention it, I recorded the 76/80 solution and uploaded it to YouTube as a video respose for a 75/80 solution of some guy called "LemmingsMaster". Maybe he's the same guy? Anyway, he said he couldn't perform the 76/80 solution because there's water in the bottom on the SNES version.

As for the 78/80 solution... bashing to free the first blockers... I'm still clueless... how can you save the rightmost blocker from falling into the void, since he is facing to the right? How do you manage to bash underneath to free them? Damn, you guys are truly masters. I still can't figure it out.

[ccexplore]

Actually, I got the idea of building to the left from some guy called dfoofnik on YouTube.

dfoofnik is LemMaster Don.  So he's on youtube huh?  I might have to start making a whole bunch of video responses to whatever he might've uploaded.

I recorded the 76/80 solution and uploaded it to YouTube as a video respose for a 75/80 solution of some guy called "LemmingsMaster". Maybe he's the same guy? Anyway, he said he couldn't perform the 76/80 solution because there's water in the bottom on the SNES version.

It may surprise you to learn that you can still get 77/80 (or 97/100) on most of the versions that have water on the bottom, and this is done not by building west, but actually building east like the conventional solution.  (Obviously you need to do some other unconventional things elsewhere to achieve 77/80.)  I've verified this solution for both SNES and Amiga (and DOS of course, even though you could do better in DOS).  I'll make a video/replay of it if anyone's interested.

[ccexplore]

This was actually one of the few max % records that I was the first to get on these forums.  I think 100% on Havoc 16 is the other one.

Don't forget 100% on Taxing 6, that was you too if I recall correctly.

[Fernito]

dfoofnik is LemMaster Don.  So he's on youtube huh?  I might have to start making a whole bunch of video responses to whatever he might've uploaded.

I see! So dfoofnik was Don. haha, I thought that LemmingsMaster was Don. Anyway, dfoofnik has no videos on YouTube, I only read a comment he wrote on LemmingsMaster's Mayhem 29 video. Maybe you can make video responses for LemmingsMaster's videos

the versions that have water on the bottom, and this is done not by building west, but actually building east like the conventional solution.  (Obviously you need to do some other unconventional things elsewhere to achieve 77/80.)  I've verified this solution for both SNES and Amiga (and DOS of course, even though you could do better in DOS).  I'll make a video/replay of it if anyone's interested.

I'd be very grateful if you make a sort of a "tutorial" video of freeing the 2 inital blockers in Mayhem 29 I know you can bash the steel, but as I said, I don't know how to save the rightmost blocker.

[Fernito]

Ah, yes.  Lose 2 on Mayhem 29 is insanely difficult to pull off, but I have managed to do it a couple of times.  Here are a few hints[...]

Sorry, forgot to thank you for the tips!

[LemSteven]

Sorry, forgot to thank you for the tips!

You're welcome.

As for the 78/80 solution... bashing to free the first blockers... I'm still clueless... how can you save the rightmost blocker from falling into the void, since he is facing to the right? How do you manage to bash underneath to free them? Damn, you guys are truly masters. I still can't figure it out.

Here's a bit more detail to describe this:

To get down lower, you have to build just a couple of bricks at the left edge of the steel and then dig from there..  You can dig the very last few pixels of steel without trigging the game's steel detection algorithm.  When he is done digging, make him build just before he falls.  This is the basis of the "left route".

You have to send your builder back down his bridge later to fill a small gap left left where he started building.  If this is done properly, you can bash from the top of the bridge and free the blockers.  To save the basher and the rightmost blocker, have them both build immmediately after the blocker is released.  Their bridges should hit what is left of the steel, and they will turn around.

Of course, you cannot release the entire crowd until the majority of the work is done, so what I do is set up three blockers at the start.  The first basher used releases just a couple of lemmings.  When they walk up the steps, one of them deals with the broken pillar obstacle, while the others walk back down.  The other basher is then used to free the remaining lemmings.

Unfortunately, I'm unable to make any kind of videos, replays or the like.  Sorry.

[Fernito]

To get down lower, you have to build just a couple of bricks at the left edge of the steel and then dig from there..  You can dig the very last few pixels of steel without trigging the game's steel detection algorithm.  When he is done digging, make him build just before he falls.  This is the basis of the "left route".

You have to send your builder back down his bridge later to fill a small gap left left where he started building.  If this is done properly, you can bash from the top of the bridge and free the blockers.  To save the basher and the rightmost blocker, have them both build immmediately after the blocker is released.  Their bridges should hit what is left of the steel, and they will turn around.

Of course, you cannot release the entire crowd until the majority of the work is done, so what I do is set up three blockers at the start.  The first basher used releases just a couple of lemmings.  When they walk up the steps, one of them deals with the broken pillar obstacle, while the others walk back down.  The other basher is then used to free the remaining lemmings.

Unfortunately, I'm unable to make any kind of videos, replays or the like.  Sorry.

Don't worry, no need of a video I think. That was a pretty good explanation! I'll try to do it

EDIT: You mention that 2 bashers are used to free the blockers... how do I suppose to get rid of the pillar? Using only a digger and builds? Damn, I feel so stupid 

[LemSteven]

EDIT: You mention that 2 bashers are used to free the blockers... how do I suppose to get rid of the pillar? Using only a digger and builds? Damn, I feel so stupid 

Don't feel stupid.  The fact that you're able to get that far tells me you're doing a good job.  Here's how you get past the pillar:

Have a lemming dig from the top of your bridge just after hitting the pillar and turning around.  Shortly before he runs out of stuff to dig through, make him build.  He will go right, but hopefully he will hit his head on the bridge from earlier and turn around.  If the digger and bridge were placed properly, the lemmings should be able to drop off from the first brick and land at the very edge of the bottom part of the pillar.

There's also one other thing I should mention, and that is you can't use a builder to stop the first basher, otherwise you will run out.  One way to get around this is to start the first basher so high that he takes just one stroke and quits, and then to start the second basher a tad lower.

With all of that said, I will add that I tried the level again tonight, but ended up failing because in the end the first two lemmings were too close together, so the second one was lost while the first one was doing the build-block thing.  It takes a lot of trial and error to get them spaced out properly.

[Fernito]

Thanks LemSteven, I really appreciate your effort explaining me this 

Now I'm having problems with the bashers. I can release the first blocker with the basher, but after that, there isn't enough material for the second basher to bash "a tad lower" as you said. He will just bash in the air. Anyway, I guess this is just practice and trial and error, as you said. I'll keep trying

EDIT: I MADE IT!

I just made a slight modification on your technique: I set up 4 blockers instead of 3 at the beginning, so you get better timing for the build-block thing at the end. Here I attached a replay.

I'll capture it into a video and upload it to YouTube. Obviously, proper credit will be given

[Pooty]

EDIT: I MADE IT!

I just made a slight modification on your technique: I set up 4 blockers instead of 3 at the beginning, so you get better timing for the build-block thing at the end. Here I attached a replay.

I'll capture it into a video and upload it to YouTube. Obviously, proper credit will be given

That was amazing to watch. Very well done.

[LemSteven]

Wow!  Good job!   

I was just about to give a hint that the last blocker may be useful for the timing at the end, but I know that it can be done without it, and I didn't want to make things any more confusing.

[Fernito]

Thanks for your words guys!

Seriously, making it without the fourth blocker sounds impossible! (I know it's possible though).

PS: Here's the video on YouTube, in case anyone wants to watch it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qX9UTfUNrOU

I've got lots of other intersting stuff on YouTube in case you are interested, like Duke Nukem 3D speedruns and stuff (always loved game glitches hehehe).

[Minim]

OK. Next challenge

Fun 7: Solve with 100% and two builders. Harder than you think on a training level.

[namida]

Not hard at all.

[LemSteven]

I think I posted that on the very old forums several years ago.  It's not overly difficult, but it still requires a bit of thought.

[Clam]

You want a training level challenge? Try Fun 6 with only one bomber (you're still allowed blockers).

(Yes, I know this was posted on the "very old forums" too. I figured it's relevant though.)

And from my own challenge thread on the old forum, here's a challenge for Fun 8 - 100% with either bashers and miners, or bashers and diggers.

[namida]

Dunno about the bashers and miners one, but the bashers and diggers one is easy - use the same trick used in my level To The End!

[Minim]

Done Fun 6! It does use a glitch though...

Double block the lemmings as narrow as possible. When all lemmings are in, bomb a blocker. All the packed lemmings should look like one lemming. Just before he hits the wall make someone a blocker. 94%

[DragonsLover]

Here's a little challenge (you may have to edit the level) :

Tricky 9

0 Climbers
1 Floater
0 Bombers
0 Blockers
8 Builders
1 Basher
1 Miner
0 Digger

Release Rate : 50
Number of Lemmings : 80
100% to be saved
Time : 2 minutes

For a different one, add 1 climber and remove a builder.

[Clam]

^ This is the sort of creativity we need more of around here. That's brilliant

[DragonsLover]

Really? Well, thanks a lot!

Here's another one that really involves creativity :

Fun 14

20 Climbers
0 Floaters
20 Bombers
0 Blockers
0 Builders
0 Bashers
0 Miners
20 Diggers

Release Rate : 20
Number of Lemmings : 80
75% to be saved
Time : 5 minutes

I guess it's also possible with less diggers, but then, it becomes way harder.

[Clam]

I'm just glad to see some undirected challenges again. It's been a while 


Here's one for Tricky 12:
Climbers, floaters, bombers, and 2 builders only; 1 minute.

If you can manage that, then try 3 climbers, 3 floaters, 5 bombers and 2 builders.

[Minim]

Does that mean you can have 50 climbers and 50 floaters? If so, it's quite easy.

[Clam]

oops.

I must have read those as 20's. Which is pretty poor since I know full well this level gives you 50. Then again, it's not that easy to click 50 lemmings twice each within the 30 second window you have available

[Minim]

Does that mean you can have 50 climbers and 50 floaters? If so, it's quite easy.

It not for the one minute timer.

[Pooty]

Tricky 9

0 Climbers
1 Floater
0 Bombers
0 Blockers
8 Builders
1 Basher
1 Miner
0 Digger

Release Rate : 50
Number of Lemmings : 80
100% to be saved
Time : 2 minutes

For a different one, add 1 climber and remove a builder.

Those 2 challenges are brilliant. I did beat them eventually, but I had great fun attempting them. Such fun it was, in fact, I was juiced up into creating a challenge of my own.

Fun 3

1 Climber
1 Floater
1 Bomber
0 Blockers
7 Builders
1 Basher
0 Miners
0 Diggers

No. of Lemmings 50
98% to be saved (49)
Release Rate - 50
Time - 2 minutes

[Edit: 1 Blocker removed, 3 Builders added, 1 extra lemming to rescue]

[Clam]

That's not difficult. I did it with just the blocker and builders. (The first version, that is.)

[Pooty]

What? How? I can't do it.

Edit: Never mind, i've worked it out. I'm withdrawing my challenge until I can make it more difficult.

Edit 2: Okay, let's try that again. I hope there isn't another backroute. Hehe.

[Clam]

I'm sorry to say...

This time I saved 100% without using the bomber or basher. In fact, this is a reasonably tough challenge.

[Pooty]

Well, that's okay. If the backroute is harder than the intended solution, I can live with that. I'll let the challenge stand, and hope someone works out what the intended solution was.

So, does that mean your solution used a climber?

[Clam]

Yes, it did. I don't know if this is really harder than the intended solution (whatever that is - I don't know). What I meant is that this would be a good challenge in itself.

[Pooty]

Yeah, I know what you meant. Still, I think it's a shame that the pillar on the left is there. The source of all my backroutes. Meh.

Anyway, i'll provide a hint for my intended solution.

I wanted a challenge that made 3 different uses of builders' bridges. One to cross a pit, one to block lemmings by building into a wall.. and one that provides a safe falling distance for all. I think it's funny that my modified challenge utilises a fourth purpose: to replace a blocker.

I think it's also worth pointing out that I had earlier added one extra climber and floater for the third builder purpose, but found it was unnecessary.

Edit: If you're still not sure (or can't get the timing right because my edited challenge screwed with that ), i've posted a replay. I'll probably deliver a new challenge soon when I come up with another creative idea (and you can bet your granny it'll be on a different level).

[Proxima]

Great minds think alike, I guess This is eerily similar to one of my ResEdit levels. (For those who weren't around when I talked about these before -- years ago before I had Cheapo or any other "real" Lemmings editing tool, I designed my own levels by altering the existing ones in ResEdit.)

My level's stats were: save 100% of 100, RR 1, 2 minutes, skills 7-1-7-1-7-1-0-1. (I liked using patterns like that for the skill allocation. My solution didn't involve the climbers at all, and of course the bombers are useless.)

[Minim]

My level's stats were: save 100% of 100, RR 1, 2 minutes, skills 7-1-7-1-7-1-0-1. (I liked using patterns like that for the skill allocation. My solution didn't involve the climbers at all, and of course the bombers are useless.)

That reminds me of Crazy 16 - Across the Gap!

Anyway, why don't you do my signature challenge below (Which was closed ages ago now)?

[Pooty]

My level's stats were: save 100% of 100, RR 1, 2 minutes, skills 7-1-7-1-7-1-0-1. (I liked using patterns like that for the skill allocation. My solution didn't involve the climbers at all, and of course the bombers are useless.)

That reminds me of Crazy 16 - Across the Gap!

Anyway, why don't you do my signature challenge below. It's going to be tedious I know, but you can send me as many Lemmix replays as you want.

Probably not quite as many on the Master System version. Hehe. 

I'll probably have a go at this tonight. On Lemmix, of course.

[Proxima]

Anyway, why don't you do my signature challenge below. It's going to be tedious I know, but you can send me as many Lemmix replays as you want.

Since I don't have Lemmix, no I can't

Anyway, here are the different solutions I know of for Fun 27:

* "Normal" solution: block, build, block, build, block, build
* Normal 100% solution: use mine/build to replace 2nd and 3rd blockers, last lemming out releases first blocker and both float
* Direct drop solution: build to directly above exit, use builders to delay other lemmings if 100% desired (or make them float)
* Alternative solution on versions with no direct drop: build up and right from end of start platform and break through top wall, continue as in normal solution
* Normal Taxing 22 solution: one lemming floats, dig and build to turn, build back up to shorten drop; use blocker on one side, pit on other side to trap crowd, release blocker (this crowd control method can also be applied to the other solutions)
* Taxing 22 backroute (and the solution I originally found): one lemming mines platform, floats and builds L-to-R bridge to catch fallers; second lemming builds over hole in platform; third lemming mines to shave off corner of platform and shorten fall a bit more
* No floaters, no direct drop 100% solution: use above crowd control method, worker lemming goes long way round, builds over exit and builds to shorten fall

Finally, here's a cute little Fun 27 challenge. One builder, as many of the other skills as you're given, 100%.

[Minim]

I done it! 54% saved Lemmix replay. You'll like this solution I made.

Oops, I didn't see the 100% bit did I?

[Minim]

OK then, try this one. Fun 15: Take the ceiling route with 3 blockers, 7 builders, 1 basher and 2 diggers. Save 96%.

A solution is here below: Highlight the text below to read.
Make the first lemming a blocker on the edge of the pillar. Send a blocker on the left edge of the pillar. Let one lemming build a stair as close to the right blocker as possible. When a lemming touches the last step of the stair make him build 4 more stairs (At this point break the stair with a digger using another lemming) then turn him into a blocker. Now fix the stairway with a builder. Now the tricky part is you have to build a stair at the exact correct place so that it reaches the wall and has no gap below when you bash all the way across. After the hard part turn the basher into a digger when near the exit.

[Fernito]

I done it! 54% saved Lemmix replay. You'll like this solution I made.

Oops, I didn't see the 100% bit did I?

I managed to get 96% with one builder Let's go for 100%!

[Minim]

The bombers are out of the question. I was originally aiming to get 92% but I lost a few lemmings when I tried to free a blocker at the bottom platform.

OK. A possibly easier challenge coming up next: Fun 24: 93% with 2 climbers, 2 blockers, 3 builders and 5 bashers.

[Fernito]

I MADE IT!  (100% on Fun 27 with 1 builder)

I attached the replay.

[namida]

Hm. That was an easy but fun challenge. My solution was *very* slightly different to Fernito's, not different enough to warrant a seperate replay.

minimac: I'll try yours now.

EDIT: Tried it... and very much topped it. 100% with 1 blocker, 3 builders, 1 basher. Or alternatively, 96% with 1 blocker, 2 builders, 1 basher.

[Pooty]

I'm not having a lot of success with minimac's challenge. I fall one short of the target using everything but the bashers.

[namida]

Keep trying. It's harder than the Fun 27 challenge, although with the full range of skills Minimac gives you, it's not too hard.

On the other hand, try doing it the way I did *without* watching my replay first. (IE: 100% with 1 blocker, 3 builders and 1 basher) if you want a harder challenge. (Which still, to be fair, isn't *that* hard)

[Pooty]

I rescued the required 93% at last. My solution is very different from yours, using everything except 2 bashers.

[Fernito]

Keep trying. It's harder than the Fun 27 challenge, although with the full range of skills Minimac gives you, it's not too hard.

On the other hand, try doing it the way I did *without* watching my replay first. (IE: 100% with 1 blocker, 3 builders and 1 basher) if you want a harder challenge. (Which still, to be fair, isn't *that* hard)

I managed to get 96% using 1 blocker, 1 basher and 3 builders. I haven't seen your replay yet, so I don't know... is my solution too far from your 100% one? (attached the replay).

[Pooty]

It's almost the same as namida's. Two lemmings were allowed to pass the blocker rather than just the one.

[namida]

Pretty much the only difference is, as Pooty said, I let two lemmings rather than just one past the blocker, and used one to free the blocker while the other one went ahead to build over the trap well before the others got there.

It seems that too many players overlook the idea of having more than one worker lemming. (On the other hand, I almost always consider it, as many of my own levels do this - most notably, "To The End!" requires two workers)

[Fernito]

Watched it... damn! I thought of letting pass two lemmings instead of one, but for some stupid reason I thought the second lemming would pass through the blocker. Oh, I feel so stupid haha 

[Fernito]

It seems that too many players overlook the idea of having more than one worker lemming. (On the other hand, I almost always consider it, as many of my own levels do this - most notably, "To The End!" requires two workers)

Oh yes, I do too. Actually, most of my own levels use lots of multitasking too. It's just in this case I missed an obvious thing

[namida]

In general, multitasking levels are good because they're harder to work out. I took this to the extreme in a Lemmings Plus 4 level (which it appears I've since lost, although the LP4 demo has the easier repeat of it so I can just recreate it based off this) by making a level that required a total of nine worker lemmings, most of which perform actions simultaneously.

[namida]

People who know the level well will have no trouble with this one, but I can't think of anything better at the moment:

Fun 23, only assigning skills to lemmings that are going RIGHT. Note that it doesn't matter if the skill activates when they're going left (mostly only applicable to climbers or bombers), as long as they're going right when you assign the skill to them.

[namida]

Here's a very slight variant on the normal direct drop solution for Fun 27. You might want to add this to your list, minimac:

[Fernito]

People who know the level well will have no trouble with this one, but I can't think of anything better at the moment:

Fun 23, only assigning skills to lemmings that are going RIGHT. Note that it doesn't matter if the skill activates when they're going left (mostly only applicable to climbers or bombers), as long as they're going right when you assign the skill to them.

As you said, easy if you know the level well Got 100%, though the solution wasn't very skill-efficient.

[Fernito]

Here's a very slight variant on the normal direct drop solution for Fun 27. You might want to add this to your list, minimac:

Amazing one!

[Minim]

I MADE IT! (100% on Fun 27 with 1 builder)

I attached the replay.

Good work! That's another solution in the bag! Do you want me to delete my replay? (I still like it though)

[Minim]

Here's a very slight variant on the normal direct drop solution for Fun 27.

I have done that as well a few years ago. Not exactly the same solution as yours though. I used only one digger,  two blockers and three builders.

[Fernito]

Good work! That's another solution in the bag! Do you want me to delete my replay? (I still like it though)

No way! Why should you delete your replay?

[Minim]

I'm only teasing you

Anyway, I can't think of any more challenges for now. I might do tomorrow.

[ccexplore]

People who know the level well will have no trouble with this one, but I can't think of anything better at the moment:

Fun 23, only assigning skills to lemmings that are going RIGHT. Note that it doesn't matter if the skill activates when they're going left (mostly only applicable to climbers or bombers), as long as they're going right when you assign the skill to them.

As you said, easy if you know the level well Got 100%, though the solution wasn't very skill-efficient.

For a real challenge, use the exits on the LEFT, still assigning skills only to RIGHT-going lemmings.
(100% not required, though you're welcome to try.)

Let me know how long I should wait before giving out a replay.

[Fernito]

For a real challenge, use the exits on the LEFT, still assigning skills only to RIGHT-going lemmings.
(100% not required, though you're welcome to try.)

Let me know how long I should wait before giving out a replay.

I should have seen something like this coming I'm gonna try it out now

[Pooty]

In order to do that, you need to have bashers react to blockers. Try and try as I might, I cannot get it done.

Oh wait, there he goes. Well, this is going to take a while.

[Edit] Sometimes he turns around and continues to bash, sometimes he bashes on the spot and does nothing, sometimes he frees the blocker. Seems to be no consistency here. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

[Fernito]

Done!

Sorry, I spent all 20 floaters because I thought lemmings weren't going to survive the last fall. Stupid me.

[ccexplore]

Sometimes he turns around and continues to bash, sometimes he bashes on the spot and does nothing, sometimes he frees the blocker. Seems to be no consistency here. Stupid, stupid, stupid.

The consistency problem stems partly from how the game sets up the field of a blocker, which depending on the horizontal position of the blocker, may or may not align exactly with the blocker.

However, you should be able to mitigate this some of the time (besides by "luck") by starting your bashing not so close to the blocker.  It may help to know that, roughly speaking, the basher continues to bash when he sees more pixels in front of him after the completion of his last bash stroke--how many pixels got taken out by the last bash stroke itself has no impact on whether bashing continues or not.  Finally, try to minimize the number of times you have to do this blocker-basher manuever--I did it just 3 times in my solution.

Definitely try it on Lemmix, since you'll need to (re)play around a bit to get things to work.

[ccexplore]

Done!

Very nice.  Pretty similar to my solution; actually, I have to say I like some of the methods you used in your solution better than mine. I do overcomplicate things sometimes.

[Pooty]

Nice. I also came up with that idea, but I couldn't actually do it. I could get one bash in using the top storey, but beyond that.. couldn't do it.

Good job.

[Fernito]

Thanks for your comments guys

I'll see if I can think of a new challenge.

[Minim]

I do overcomplicate things sometimes.

I am the opposite for my Fun 24 challenge. I intentionally used the lower route (The one with all the pillars). This solution is hard to execute because of the last job: using one builder to get to the exit platform. Anyway: Thanks for all your (backrouted) solutions! I've loaded a replay to see where you should be going.

[Pooty]

Ahh, I see. I did think of going down there due to the high number of bashers, but at the same time, I didn't think I had enough.

[Minim]

Now guys: Beat Taxing 27 with 4 bombers.

[Proxima]

It can be done with fewer than that.

[Clam]

Much fewer - it can be done with no bombers at all.

[Proxima]

Hush.... I didn't want to make the secret too obvious 

[Fernito]

Much fewer - it can be done with no bombers at all.

The glitch involved is the same as Tricky 28 challenge?

[Clam]

Hush.... I didn't want to make the secret too obvious 

I thought we weren't keeping glitches secret any more... And besides that, I thought you were talking about the outside route, which requires at least one bomber.

[Fernito]

A question: do challenges need necessarily to be original levels with less skills and such? Or they can be custom levels as well?

[ccexplore]

Here's a small challenge for Taxing 9 (Perseverance).  I might've had mentioned some form of it on the old old forums, but hopefully it remains unknown to most:

Solve the level with 3 skills (out of the ones given to you in the level), such that no lemmings ever go horizontally beyond the right edge of the starting platform (as in, past the rightmost column of pixels of the starting platform, applying this boundary even when you get down to the lower platform of the exit).  From the level editor, this translates to no lemmings' x-position ever going above 812.

Too easy?   Find two different ways to do it.  (Obviously any differences that do not affect the solution in any meaningful way doesn't count.  I can tell you that the two ways I know of involve different skills used.)

[Fernito]

Here's a small challenge for Taxing 9 (Perseverance).  I might've had mentioned some form of it on the old old forums, but hopefully it remains unknown to most:

Solve the level with 3 skills (out of the ones given to you in the level), such that no lemmings ever go horizontally beyond the right edge of the starting platform (as in, past the rightmost column of pixels of the starting platform, applying this boundary even when you get down to the lower platform of the exit).  From the level editor, this translates to no lemmings' x-position ever going above 812.

Too easy?   Find two different ways to do it.  (Obviously any differences that do not affect the solution in any meaningful way doesn't count.  I can tell you that the two ways I know of involve different skills used.)

A little question: by 3 skills you mean 3 kinds of skills, or 3 skills? Sorry for the silly question, but I'm a bit confused here 

[ccexplore]

3 skills, not 3 kind.  So if you use 2 climbers, that's 2 skills.

[Proxima]

I thought we weren't keeping glitches secret any more... And besides that, I thought you were talking about the outside route, which requires at least one bomber.

I was talking about the outside route; it's obvious from the fact that minimac said 4 bombers that he doesn't know about it. I, of course, don't know anything about ay glitch solutions.

[Fernito]

3 skills, not 3 kind.  So if you use 2 climbers, that's 2 skills.

Damn, can't even figure out one solution using 3 skills.

[Minim]

Damn, can't even figure out one solution using 3 skills.

I used the following skills in my 3-skill attempt:
Digger
Floater
Miner

[Minim]

OK. Can you tell me if Mayhem 15 is possible with 4 builders?

[Fernito]

Damn, can't even figure out one solution using 3 skills.

I used the following skills in my 3-skill attempt:
Digger
Floater
Miner

But did you follow the rule of "not going beyond the edge of the starting platform"?

[Minim]

No, I didn't

[Fernito]

OK. Can you tell me if Mayhem 15 is possible with 4 builders?

Not hard Here attached a replay.

[Minim]

Here's another short challenge. Fun 10: 100% with 2 blockers, 2 bashers, 1 floater and 4 builders.

Or for a harder challenge: Tame 18: 66% with 2 bashers, no bombers, miners or diggers.

[Proxima]

Here's another short challenge. Fun 10: 100% with 2 blockers, 2 bashers, 1 floater and 4 builders.

Or 2 blockers, 2 bashers and 3 builders.

That was cute May I use this idea in a Cheapo level? I already have a level that's basically Fun 10 with 1 floater, 1 bomber, 2 blockers, 2 builders, 1 basher (try it if you like -- not so much a challenge as an interesting different solution) and this would make a good "harder version".

[ccexplore]

Here's another short challenge. Fun 10: 100% with 2 blockers, 2 bashers, 1 floater and 4 builders.

Or 2 blockers, 2 bashers and 3 builders.

Kinda wonder how you used the blockers.  It's possible with just 2 bashers + 3 builders (and if you really try, 2 bashers + 2 builders).

[Minim]

Here's how I did the Fun 10 challenge I made since you all did it differently. Highlight the hidden text below.

Let the first lemming build on the edge (Make him a floater). Make the second lemming a blocker. Let the third lemming build the left edge of the platform. Make the fourth a blocker to hold the others back. Watch the right floater and let him build into the starting block. Do the same with the left lemming only this time you bash right dropping both blockers. Bash left with the floater to get all the lemmings home.

[Proxima]

And this is how I improved minimac's challenge:

First lemming blocks, second builds off to the left, third is a pass-through blocker. Builder falls to the left-hand L, builds, bashes to release blockers and crowd (importantly, by now all 20 lemmings are out, so the worker lemming has time to build over the gap while everyone else is going to the left). As soon as the worker crosses the gap, bash to stop him going too high.

[Minim]

I am starting to love these challenges. I've set up another one!

Tricky 5: 3 minutes with 1 basher and no miners, diggers or bombers. All other skills allowed.

[namida]

Taxing 24: 100%, without any builder bricks directly below the drop that you would usually create a landing place below - however, you also must not prevent the lemmings from going up to it as a whole (you may prevent one or two lemmings from going up, if you find this to be nessecary, but the majority must be allowed to go).

[Fernito]

Taxing 24: 100%, without any builder bricks directly below the drop that you would usually create a landing place below - however, you also must not prevent the lemmings from going up to it.

Let me see if I understood: lemmings can't be saved by landing on a builder brick?

Tricky 5: 3 minutes with 1 basher and no miners, diggers or bombers. All other skills allowed.

Done! Though it's far away from being a flawless replay, sorry for that.

[namida]

You're not allowed to shorten the drop I've red boxed here:

[Clam]

Here's another challenge for Fun 10 - but a little more crazy.

Save 100% in 1 minute with no builders. In doing so, you must destroy the whole central block of terrain (beneath the trapdoor), and nothing else. The attached pic shows what you're aiming for.


Here's a couple of tips: (highlight to read)

- Bashers and miners can destroy a bit of terrain behind them.

- Blockers can turn diggers while standing inside the digger's tunnel.

- You can select a walker instead of a working lemming (which is normally prioritised) by holding the right mouse button and clicking the left.

[LemSteven]

I posted this one a couple months ago on the old forums, but I'm going to post it again here for the benefit of some of the newer members:

Fun 22 -- Save 100% using the following skills:
1 Climber
2 Builders
2 Bashers
1 Miner
1 Digger

[Fernito]

Here's another challenge for Fun 10 - but a little more crazy.

Save 100% in 1 minute with no builders. In doing so, you must destroy the whole central block of terrain (beneath the trapdoor), and nothing else. The attached pic shows what you're aiming for.

Here you have (didn't read the tips).

[Fernito]

I posted this one a couple months ago on the old forums, but I'm going to post it again here for the benefit of some of the newer members:

Fun 22 -- Save 100% using the following skills:
1 Climber
2 Builders
2 Bashers
1 Miner
1 Digger

I'll give it a try!

[namida]

Fernito: Clam's challenge says "Without destroying anything else", but you used miners on the bottom area, so you didn't succeed.

[Fernito]

Fernito: Clam's challenge says "Without destroying anything else", but you used miners on the bottom area, so you didn't succeed.

Damn, didn't notice that part! 

[Minim]

Taxing 24: 100%, without any builder bricks directly below the drop that you would usually create a landing place below - however, you also must not prevent the lemmings from going up to it as a whole (you may prevent one or two lemmings from going up, if you find this to be necessary, but the majority must be allowed to go).

I think this challenge will be better if you redesigned the level rather than us have to follow the rules.

[namida]

There's no way to redesign it to acheive that. You simply don't build bridges that would make that fall safe. You can avoid the fall (but not by preventing lemmings from reaching it), but you can't make it safe.

[Minim]

Tricky 5: 3 minutes with 1 basher and no miners, diggers or bombers. All other skills allowed.

Done! Though it's far away from being a flawless replay, sorry for that.

Nice work, although a more appropriate solution would be to block the pack and build over it when the worker's almost done. This method is easier than you think once you get the hang of this terrain. I was laughing at the last lemming alive which splatted alone on the 2 minute mark (Which would end my challenge at this point).

[Clam]

There's no way to redesign it to acheive that. You simply don't build bridges that would make that fall safe. You can avoid the fall (but not by preventing lemmings from reaching it), but you can't make it safe.

You could put a flamethrower trap below the ledge. That way the drop will be lethal even if you build beneath it.

[namida]

...that works. xD Although it still doesn't stop you from preventing the lemmings from going up there in the first place.

[Fernito]

Taxing 24: 100%, without any builder bricks directly below the drop that you would usually create a landing place below - however, you also must not prevent the lemmings from going up to it as a whole (you may prevent one or two lemmings from going up, if you find this to be nessecary, but the majority must be allowed to go).

Does this replay comply with the rules?

[Minim]

Beat Tricky 2 without moving the screen. Don't show me replays.

[Clam]

I'm almost certain this can be done on Taxing 30 and Mayhem 11 as well.


My Fun 10 challenge has turned out to be quite difficult (as I expected), so I will offer an easier version:

As before, but you can use builders as long as:
- you destroy any terrain you add to the level with builders, and
- you don't start a builder from anywhere except for the central block of terrain or another builder bridge.

[LemSteven]

Here's another one:

Fun 29:  Save 100% with the following skill restrictions:
No climbers or bashers
No more than 10 miners
No more than 10 diggers

[namida]

Taxing 24: 100%, without any builder bricks directly below the drop that you would usually create a landing place below - however, you also must not prevent the lemmings from going up to it as a whole (you may prevent one or two lemmings from going up, if you find this to be nessecary, but the majority must be allowed to go).

Does this replay comply with the rules?

Yep. Sure does.

[Minim]

That Fun 29 challenge is nasty, especially when you try to get across the pyramid.

Another challenge: 100% on Tricky 3 with 2 of each skill. A replay is here if you can't do it.

[Fernito]

Here's another one:

Fun 29:  Save 100% with the following skill restrictions:
No climbers or bashers
No more than 10 miners
No more than 10 diggers

Used only 5 miners and 3 diggers


BTW, haven't been able to figure out Clam's Fun 10 challenge yet.  Neither the one using builders nor the builderless one.

[Minim]

You will get eventually, at least HE knows that it's possible.

Here's an easier Tricky 28 challenge: 100% using only 5 diggers. Builders are the only other skill that is acceptable.

[Fernito]

Thought of a new challenge, but probably it'll be no challenge for you guys

Fun 11, 100% within 1 minute and 10 seconds - you can't use blockers nor builders.

Here's an easier Tricky 28 challenge: 100% using only 5 diggers. Builders are the only other skill that is acceptable.

Done! (replay attached)

[Proxima]

Thought of a new challenge, but probably it'll be no challenge for you guys

Fun 11, 100% within 1 minute and 10 seconds - you can't use blockers nor builders.

I think I know how to do that -- you could use the same method that's the solution to one of my Cheapo levels

[Fernito]

I think I know how to do that -- you could use the same method that's the solution to one of my Cheapo levels

Nice! Try it and post a replay if you make it

PS: Sorry, don't know what is Cheapo

[Proxima]

Cheapo is another Lemmings clone / level editor. I think there are details in the Level Designing board somewhere. And as I've said before, I don't have Lemmix so I can't post replays.

I did complete the challenge, however.

[Fernito]

Cheapo is another Lemmings clone / level editor. I think there are details in the Level Designing board somewhere. And as I've said before, I don't have Lemmix so I can't post replays.

Oh, I see now.

I did complete the challenge, however.

How did you do? I mean, to see if your solution was the intended by me (maybe you backrouted my challenge haha ).

[Proxima]

I set the release rate to 99 right at the start, made the first 14 lemmings climbers and dug the entire block away.

[Fernito]

I set the release rate to 99 right at the start, made the first 14 lemmings climbers and dug the entire block away.

Pretty much the same as I did

[Clam]

I've (rather sadly) got a spreadsheet with all that sort of information in. Assuming no typos and that none of the records have improved since I last regularly visited the forums:

Lemmings: lose 60
(Oh No!): lose 84
Xmas: lose 54

TOTAL: lose 198 (out of 17189 - using DOS version with 80 lem limit)

I've spotted a mistake in the scores for ONML. This number was (presumably) obtained from the list at the start of this thread on the old forums, which wasn't correctly updated with the improvements to records that followed. Specifically, Wild 18 can be completed with only 2 lemmings lost - not 4, as this post suggests. Thus the total lost in ONML is 82.

Also (this was fixed in the post following the one I quoted) the total lost in Lemmings is 55, not 60. This means the total lost overall is 191.

[Minim]

Just to let you know that I found an alternate solution to ISteve's old Mayhem 22 challenge, using 7 fewer of each skill. I used all of them except for the climbers and floaters. Here's a lemmix replay (ISteve, if you don't know how to use replays go to the help section of the forums).

[Clam]

Thought of a new challenge, but probably it'll be no challenge for you guys

Fun 11, 100% within 1 minute and 10 seconds - you can't use blockers nor builders.

How about we knock off those 10 seconds and leave it with a nice round figure - complete this in one minute. Now, technically I haven't completed this myself, but I got it to within the two second margin given by the pause trick (in fact I got even closer still - about half a second), and I know for sure that it's possible to shave off this last bit.

Since even I haven't definitively beaten it myself, you can be fairly sure this is a seriously difficult challenge.

[Proxima]

On the Mac version, the same solution works. I'd actually forgotten about the extra ten seconds when I was playing the level.

[Minim]

Be warned with this next challenge: I haven't tried this one myself but since you all are very good at lemmings please prove to me how good you are at this game by completing this challenge.

Mayhem 29: 100% with 20 of each skill.

[namida]

No luck with 20, but with 25 of each (actually, only builders need to be 25, the others don't even come near 20 let alone 25), I managed 95%. The few lost were due to the time limit, and could've been easily saved by simply releasing the crowd earlier. Here's my replay.

Just so you know, this uses a LOT of steel glitches. However, it doesn't use the one that doesn't work in replays, so no need to worry about that, the replay works fine.

[Pooty]

I have completed minimac94's challenge. Used every single builder.

[Fernito]

How about we knock off those 10 seconds and leave it with a nice round figure - complete this in one minute. Now, technically I haven't completed this myself, but I got it to within the two second margin given by the pause trick (in fact I got even closer still - about half a second), and I know for sure that it's possible to shave off this last bit.

Since even I haven't definitively beaten it myself, you can be fairly sure this is a seriously difficult challenge.

I actually put the 1:10 time limit because I tried to death to do it within 1:00, with no positive results. Or maybe...? OK, let me try it again.

PS: How's that pause trick?

I have completed minimac94's challenge. Used every single builder.

haha, nice! 

[Dullstar]

The pause trick?  You pause the game, wait for the trapdoor sounds to finish, then resume.

[Fernito]

The pause trick?  You pause the game, wait for the trapdoor sounds to finish, then resume.

Oh, but that doesn't work on Lemmix, does it?

PS: Just tried it and doesn't seem to work.

[namida]

No, it doesn't. That glitch, and the nuke glitch, are not present in Lemmix. AFAIK all the others are.

I have completed minimac94's challenge. Used every single builder.

Nice. I knew someone would be able to improve on my solution.



A new one: Beat Flow Control (Havoc 10) with 71% without changing the release rate.

[Fernito]

A new one: Beat Flow Control (Havoc 10) with 71% without changing the release rate.

Gotta watch a replay of that, because I'm totally clueless. Does it involve the use of a glitch?

[namida]

Nope. None at all.

[Fernito]

Went to the level, saw the skills, saw the landscape, and came to the conclusion that it's impossible haha.

Just kidding, I know it's possible, but this challenge is definitely out of my reach. As I said earlier, I'm totally clueless.

[namida]

I'll give you one hint: It uses none of the climbers, but every skill apart from them. (Although, it can probably be done without the second miner and digger)

[Fernito]

I'll give you one hint: It uses none of the climbers, but every skill apart from them. (Although, it can probably be done without the second miner and digger)

I tried few things, with no positive results so far. But I think I'm on the right way. Here's my guess:

- Make the first lemming a floater as soon as he comes out.
- Make him mine just before the first... errr... "sucking tube".
- Make the third lemming bomber and floater as soon as he comes out.
- Time his explosion with a miner/digger just before the second vacuum tube, so when he explodes, both the second vacuum tube trigger area is out of reach AND the mining lemming has no terrain to keep mining, so the skill is cancelled.
- The rest is easy to figure out.

Am I in the right way? Or I'm as lost as Tricky 28 exit?

[namida]

Your idea isn't too bad, but you are going to need to work on it a bit.

[Fleech]

I've spotted a mistake in the scores for ONML. This number was (presumably) obtained from the list at the start of this thread on the old forums, which wasn't correctly updated with the improvements to records that followed. Specifically, Wild 18 can be completed with only 2 lemmings lost - not 4, as this post suggests. Thus the total lost in ONML is 82.

Also (this was fixed in the post following the one I quoted) the total lost in Lemmings is 55, not 60. This means the total lost overall is 191.

I've just seen this. Thanks for letting me know, I've updated the post.

I've also just achieved Lose 2 myself quite easily. Such an obvious improvement in hindsight.

[namida]

Another one that should be easy for most, but: Taxing 4, without assigning ANY skills to lemmings that are in the top half of the level.

[ccexplore]

Taxing 4, without assigning ANY skills to lemmings that are in the top half of the level.

You sure you mean "Taxing 4" or "top half of the level"? Because it's not clear on Taxing 4 ("Lend a helping hand...") where you're drawing the line for the "top half".

Good job on Havoc 10 though.  If I recall correctly, before I used the miner glitch on that level my best was 14/21, and I probably did fiddle with the RR a little bit on that solution.

[namida]

My solution doesn't use any glitch at all, though.
It does involve removing terrain in front of a miner to stop them suddenly, but that's hardly a glitch.

And yes, I do mean Taxing 14. By "top half", I mean exactly half way up the level. In techical terms, I guess you could put it as any lemming who's Y position is 80 or less.

[ccexplore]

My solution doesn't use any glitch at all, though.

Right, and if you read a little more carefully, neither did the 14/21 solution I had, before the miner glitch enabled my 17/21 solution.

That said, I do wonder now whether my 17/21 solution could be made to work without changing the RR?(obviously not 17/21 in that case, but maybe still pretty good).

[namida]

...How DO you pull off the miner glitch in that level anyway, given the lack of blockers?

[Clam]

Go to this page. You may wish to bookmark it - it's a real goldmine of Lemmings forums history.

About a quarter of the way down, there's a series of posts (by a well-known forumer who back then wished to remain anonymous ) dated 29 July 05. This is the "official how-to guide" to the miner trick and its use on Havoc 10.

[namida]

o_O That is... brilliant.

[Dullstar]

Look what I found looking through...  http://camanis.net/lemmings/lemmingswelt/forums/?topic=1149335565

Also, I believe this would be the first URL of the old Forums (the ones that were on isamedia, then henriwatson, or whatever, something like that) would be this.

http://www.ksoftgames.digibase.ca/lemmings/index.php

Of course, it's a broken link, but...

[Minim]

http://www.ksoftgames.digibase.ca/lemmings/index.php

Of course, it's a broken link, but...

No, I don't care, I don't want broken links " title="Angry" class="smiley" /> You should get rid of that. Don't you realise that not everyone has seen that link yet?

[ccexplore]

No, I don't care, I don't want broken links " title="Angry" class="smiley" /> You should get rid of that. Don't you realise that not everyone has seen that link yet?

Um, that's the point.  If everyone has seen the link there'd be no need to mention it.

It is ridiculous how you keep acting as if you own the forums and everyone else's posts.  I'm sorry that you failed to read the post carefully, and wasted maybe oh a second or so clicking on a link that was clearly said to be broken.  That's your mistake not Dullstar's.

It's also worth mentioning that if you use sites like the Internet Archive, or possibly even just Google, there's a slim chance you may be able to take that broken link and find an archived version of the page from years ago, using the URL that no longer works.  So just because the URL doesn't work doesn't necessarily mean it has no use.

[Minim]

OK OK, back to challenges now.

Tricky 13: 20 builders only, and also, will you tell me how many lemmings you rescued? I've got 83%

[Fernito]

OK OK, back to challenges now.

Tricky 13: 20 builders only, and also, will you tell me how many lemmings you rescued? I've got 83%

100% with 11 builders It can be done with only 10 builders, but you lose 2 lemmings.

EDIT: Just found a 9 builders solution with 97% savings.

[Minim]

Tricky 13: 20 builders only, and also, will you tell me how many lemmings you rescued? I've got 83%

Damn, I didn't explain clearly enough. I meant 20 builders only without using any other skills.

[Fernito]

I feel silly now with my 9 builders solution 

[Proxima]

I completed minimac's challenge with 22 builders, two of which were wasted selecting lemmings facing the wrong way when releasing the crowd. If you discount those, I have solved the level with 20 builders and no other skills (lose 3).

As for "fewest builders while using other skills as well", here are my current (glitch-free) records:

* Tricky 13, 5 builders and lose 1, or 6 builders and 100%
* Mayhem 25, 5 builders and lose 2

The Mayhem 25 five-builder solution is a thing of pure elegance It uses every single non-builder skill you're given.

[Clam]

Tricky 13: 20 builders only, and also, will you tell me how many lemmings you rescued? I've got 83%

I'm sure you saw this coming - 100%.

[ccexplore]

Tricky 13: 20 builders only, and also, will you tell me how many lemmings you rescued? I've got 83%

My best so far for 100% builders-only is 18 (attached).

[Minim]

Tame 18: 66% with 2 bashers, no bombers, miners or diggers.

No one has done it so far (have you seen it yet?) I've also got to say that all other skills are allowed just to help you. I didn't need a glitch for this challenge ever.

[Clam]

My Tame challenge set includes an improved version of this (1 basher, 100%). So yes, I have done this challenge

[Proxima]

I've also solved this challenge. Nowhere near Clam Spammer's improved version, but I can get a lot more than 66%.

[namida]

A couple of recent ones I've done in the challenge topics, which I think are worthy of being posted as challenges here:

Tricky 12 with no builders.
Taxing 4 with no more than 3 builders.
Mayhem 3 with no bashers.

[Fernito]

Last three challenges turned out to be impossible for me! I have tried them for some hours with no possitive results 

Any hints? I suppose they involve glitches.

[namida]

They do. Tricky 12 involves two glitches (one of them twice), Mayhem 3 involves one glitch, and Taxing 4 is basically glitch heaven.

[Fernito]

LOL!

I'll keep trying, the one I'm closer to find the solution is Tricky 12 I guess.

[Fernito]

I'm done with Tricky 12 challenge! Attached a replay.

[GigaLem]

senice There's 21 digger's i bleve on pea soup try try
Dig under the bowl then bash at the right point
i think theres basher
 

[Fernito]

senice There's 21 digger's i bleve on pea soup try try
Dig under the bowl then bash at the right point
i think theres basher

 

[namida]

No, you don't get any bashers on Pea Soup.

[Minim]

Well, at least that removes a horrific backroute.

OK, Tricky 11 (Make changes in the editor for this to work): 60% (The level originally wants 84%), use only climbers and bombers.

[namida]

Mass bomber timing? No thanks.

[Minim]

My goodness, this isn't going to be popular... So I'll improve the challenge so we have less bombers.

EDIT: Actually I won't do that, I've come up with a question: Is it possible to avoid all three of those traps in Havoc 10: Flow Control?

[Fernito]

I've got a question. I managed to solve Taxing 27 using only two bombers (replay attached), but I'm pretty sure I read here in the forums that it's possible using no bombers at all. What's the trick for that?

[Pooty]

I think it's the sliding trick, but I'm terrible at it.

[Fernito]

I think it's the sliding trick, but I'm terrible at it.

I actually used the sliding trick, but I need blockers to... eh, wait... I got an idea. Let's see if it works

[Fernito]

I DID IT! Here's the replay.

[Pooty]

Good job. I really need to learn how to use that trick. It appears to have come in handy many times.

[Fernito]

A couple of recent ones I've done in the challenge topics, which I think are worthy of being posted as challenges here:

Tricky 12 with no builders.
Taxing 4 with no more than 3 builders.
Mayhem 3 with no bashers.

Just got you Taxing 4 challenge! My technique was highly inefficient, but I made it Here's a replay.

[LemSteven]

Here's another one I mentioned on the old forums that is worthwhile bringing up again for the benefit of some of our newer members:

Taxing 15:  100% with no builders

Surprisingly, it is possible to do this without glitches.

[Fernito]

Here's another one I mentioned on the old forums that is worthwhile bringing up again for the benefit of some of our newer members:

Taxing 15:  100% with no builders

Surprisingly, it is possible to do this without glitches.

Wow, no builders? That looks like a hard challenge.

Anyway, I haven't solved Mayhem 3-no bashers challenge yet, so I'll try to do that one first. Seems like I'm the only one solving challenges here

[Clam]

These challenges have mostly been coming from other challenge threads lately, so I'm doing them too. And bettering them in some cases - like Taxing 4 with 1 builder


And speaking of which, I have a new challenge of my own from another thread: Complete Wild 5 with 3 builders.

[Fernito]

These challenges have mostly been coming from other challenge threads lately, so I'm doing them too. And bettering them in some cases - like Taxing 4 with 1 builder


And speaking of which, I have a new challenge of my own from another thread: Complete Wild 5 with 3 builders.

Taxing... 4... with... 1... builder! I definitely gotta see that. I have NO IDEA of how you can do so  .

[Fernito]

OK, here's a challenge for ya: Taxing 4 in 20 seconds. The route is almost obvious I guess, but getting it to work in 20 seconds isn't that easy

[Yawg]

Taxing 4 in 20 seconds 

[Fernito]

Well done! My version was slightly different (replay attached)

[Minim]

The winner is Yawg! He got more lemmings than Fernito did.

Now, Try Fun 21 with 13 builders and 5 diggers.

[Clam]

Taxing... 4... with... 1... builder! I definitely gotta see that. I have NO IDEA of how you can do so  .

I posted a replay when I solved it. Here.

[Fernito]

Taxing... 4... with... 1... builder! I definitely gotta see that. I have NO IDEA of how you can do so  .

I posted a replay when I solved it. Here.

That was... OMG, you're a genius 

[GigaLem]

Try Geting 100% on Sunsoft 2 (or 29)-IM A.T.
Btw how do you change your pos.
like
it says fun on mine
becuase i want mine on SUNSOFT

[Minim]

Btw how do you change your pos.
like
it says fun on mine
becuase i want mine on SUNSOFT

You'll have to use Lemmini in order for this kind of thing to work.

[GigaLem]

I don't lemmini but ins't there a way to change it with out lemmini
Try useing half the digger's on we all fall down (Part's 1 to 4)

[Proxima]

Try useing half the digger's on we all fall down (Part's 1 to 4)

You shouldn't use apostrophes there. This is a really old and by now well-known challenge (and one that we've been talking about in another thread earlier today). You can even use less than half the diggers.

[Dullstar]

I don't know if there's a reason giga's grammar isn't good, but could it be that maybe English isn't his first language?  I suppose it's a possibility, and there are probably a small number of people who don't speak English as a main language here.

[Minim]

Well, Giga's into text language rather than English I guess.

OK, back on topic. Have you not tried my Fun 21 challenge yet?

Try Fun 21 with 13 builders and 5 diggers.

Maybe you couldn't be bothered to get feedback or something.

[Proxima]

Sorry minimac -- I don't try every challenge that's posted here, and I've been too busy with the "fewest different types of skill" challenges recently.

Talking of which, here's one that's a variant of that, but since it contains a time condition, I'll post it here instead:

Crazy 9, 100% with only builders and bashers with at least a minute to spare.

[Minim]

I have been itching to do that challenge yesterday, but my attempts just don't work. I did try getting over the icicle but that doesn't work either strangely enough, let alone doing it with a minute left.

So yeah, I admire your challenge as "difficult".

[GigaLem]

Crazy1-1 climer and bomer and no diggers Rating:tricky
Sunsoft1-1 digger no floaters
Classic5-98%-100%

[Minim]

Your first challenge is easy, as it's solved by many users worldwide. The other two though, Hmm...

Anyway, Clam Spammer posted this a while ago. Tricky 25: 100% with no floaters.

Is there a replay for that by any chance?

[Clam]

There certainly is

I thought I uploaded it on the forum already, but a search turned up nothing, so I'll post it right here.

[Fernito]

Wow, good one 

[Dullstar]

I have a new challenge - and I really don't see that many for Lemmings 2...  Anyway, do Outdoor 5 (Friday's Walk) using ONLY 3 jumpers and 2 ropers.

It has only been confirmed in Amiga, but should work in DOS.

[LemSteven]

Here's a new one I've found:

Tricky 4 -- Save 98% using only 2 blockers, 8 builders, and 1 basher.

[GigaLem]

  Spoiler spoiler spoiler spolier spoiler!
    How bout the whole playthrough of
    the lemmings genesis level pack
    all 180 levels                link to us
           to show us the videos
Btw shouden't there be a LemTube topic for posting lemming videos

[Minim]

Giga's challenge is not regarded as a challenge or a spoiler either. Anyway, I'll try the host's challenge.

I like it! It's so random about how many lemmings you can save, unlike my Tricky 5 challenge. Here's a 31% solution which fits the bill.

[namida]

Spoiler spoiler spoiler spolier spoiler!
    How bout the whole playthrough of
    the lemmings genesis level pack
    all 180 levels                link to us
           to show us the videos
Btw shouden't there be a LemTube topic for posting lemming videos

How about "no one wants to spend hours doing that kind of work just for you".
I made the same mistake at your age, elsewhere. You'll seem that much more mature (and thus, get on with the people here much better) if/when you get over it.

[Proxima]

Most of the Genesis levels, and certainly all the unique ones, are already on YouTube.

[LemSteven]

Giga's challenge is not regarded as a challenge or a spoiler either. Anyway, I'll try the host's challenge.

I like it! It's so random about how many lemmings you can save, unlike my Tricky 5 challenge. Here's a 31% solution which fits the bill.

Minimac, my Tricky 4 challenge specifically asks for 98%.  I can't see your replay because I don't have Lemmix, but I can tell that if you only got 31%, you're missing a key part of my challenge:

You have to delay the crowd while a leader builds over the gaps in the end.  This actually forces you to give the crowd room to roam on the left side of the level.

[namida]

Even with the key part, getting 98% is pretty hard.
But I did it!

[Fernito]

Even with the key part, getting 98% is pretty hard.
But I did it!

Wow, that was amazing! 

[namida]

Even with the key part, getting 98% is pretty hard.
But I did it!

Wow, that was amazing! 

Indeed.
I must try to design a level that uses this idea (simply keeping the crowd far enough away from the worker like that rather than containing them)... well there is the "Winding Up Your Lemmings" in Ultimate Challenge (which is actually a frickin' easy level) but that simply involves using a climber to get ahead of the crowd...

[DragonsLover]

These days, I played back the ONML Tame levels and wanted to do some challenges on these levels. I know there's already the Tame challenges here but I didn't find them to be really hard. So here's the Harder Tame Challenges! Be forewarned, though, that some levels require extreme pixel precision. However, some levels are still very easy to complete. And if you want bigger challenges, try to complete the levels as quick as possible. Of course, you must always save the maximum number of lemmings. Some blockers may remain on some levels. Ready? Let's go!

Tame 1 : 1 Digger, 2 Builders
Tame 2 : 1 Climber, 1 Bomber, 2 Builders
Tame 3 : 2 Builders, 2 Blockers, 2 Bombers, 2 Diggers
Tame 4 : 3 Builders, 1 Climber, 1 Bomber
Tame 5 : 1 Digger, 3 Bombers, 1 Climber
Tame 6 : 1 Climber, 1 Bomber, 2 Diggers
Tame 7 : 1 Climber, 2 Bombers, 2 Builders, 1 Miner
Tame 8 : 2 Climbers, 2 Builders, 1 Bomber (If you're playing the Dos version in High Performance PCs mode, try to beat it in 1:00 only)
Tame 9 : 3 Climbers, 4 Blockers, 2 Diggers
Tame 10 : 1 Climber, 1 Floater, 1 Bomber, 1 Blocker, 6 Builders
Tame 11 : 2 Climbers, 1 Bomber, 1 Miner, 1 Builder
Tame 12 : 2 Bombers, 1 Blocker, 2 Miners, 2 Diggers
Tame 13 : There's already one.
Tame 14 : 1 Climber, 4 Builders, 1 Miner, 1 Digger
Tame 15 : 2 Builders, 1 Climber, 1 Bomber, 1 Digger
Tame 16 : 1 Builder and 1 Miner
Tame 17 : 2 Climbers, 2 Floaters, 1 Bomber, 16/17? Builders (this one is really tough but I'm so glad of the solution)
Tame 18 : 2 Climbers, 1 Blocker, 10 Builders, 2 Bashers (this one's nice as well)
Tame 19 : 5 Builders, 1 Basher, 1 Digger
Tame 20 : 2 Blockers, 1 Bomber, 1 Builder (I guess it's possible to solve the level with no builders too (with all other skills available of course), but I didn't tested it)

Tell me what do you think of those challenges.

[Clam]

Is it possible that you haven't seen my Tame challenges before? Two of yours (1 and 16) are identical to mine, and another (17) is essentially the same as well.

[DragonsLover]

Damn, how many different Tame challenges are available?

Once again, I'm feeling dumb for discovering and doing things that were already performed...

[Dullstar]

If I recall, I almost solved one of your Tame Challenges, or was it one of your levels?  Either way, it was difficult.

[Clam]

Damn, how many different Tame challenges are available?

I think you've got pretty much all of them now (aside from a few in custom levelpacks here and there).

Once again, I'm feeling dumb for discovering and doing things that were already performed...

Eh, it happens. I've "discovered" some glitches before, and then realised they were already known. I guess it pays to keep up with the goings-on at the forums...


By the way, if you're interested in playing my Tame challenges, I put them into levelpacks so you don't have to go through and change the skills yourself. Click the link in my sig and look for "CSTame1" and "CSTame2".

And most of your challenges are original, and some are pretty good. 14 had me stumped for a while

[Minim]

Nobody has thought of a challenge to do with Fun 1 yet, so here's the one I've got:

Fun 1: 100% with 1 digger and without touching any left walls.

Edit: I've bothered to bring a download of the level as well, renamed "Stuck on the very first level!"

[DoubleU]

[snip]By the way, if you're interested in playing my Tame challenges, I put them into levelpacks so you don't have to go through and change the skills yourself. Click the link in my sig and look for "CSTame1" and "CSTame2".
[snip][/quote]If you ask me, you don't have to change anything, just keep track of what you're doing.

[Clam]

Fun 1: 100% with 1 digger and without touching any left walls.

I presume that excludes the left wall of the digger's pit?

If you ask me, you don't have to change anything, just keep track of what you're doing.

If you want to do it that way, go right ahead.

[Minim]

Fun 1: 100% with 1 digger and without touching any left walls.

I presume that excludes the left wall of the digger's pit?

You're right.

[Dullstar]

I don't see why that would be so challenging.

[GuyPerfect]

Try doing it and get back to us. Remember: without touching any left walls, the Lemmings therefore are not able to walk to the left at all: they'll have to touch a left wall to turn around and head back towards the exit.

[Dullstar]

Oh, yes, I was focusing on just the top part.

With the way that the game handles things, I do not think this is possible.  In fact, if someone manages to do it, I must see a Lemmix replay (DOS or CustLemm mechanics only, maybe just do it from the Player).

[Pooty]

Here you go. Replay attached.

[GigaLem]

with a twist of lemmings with
2 floaters,4 builder,1 miner basher and digger

[Pooty]

with a twist of lemmings with
2 floaters,4 builder,1 miner basher and digger

I don't think this is possible. I can't see a way of rescuing the third lemming that comes out.

[Dullstar]

with a twist of lemmings with
2 floaters,4 builder,1 miner basher and digger

I don't think this is possible. I can't see a way of rescuing the third lemming that comes out.

Uh oh!  Your challenge has been challenged! 

[GigaLem]

with a twist of lemmings with
2 floaters,4 builder,1 miner basher and digger

I don't think this is possible. I can't see a way of rescuing the third lemming that comes out.

Uh oh!  Your challenge has been challenged! 

and 2 climers
LOL
Frist build when the floater hits the ground
then build again when the second floater comes
next make the floaters a athletes
next one digs till he bashes when theres a platfourm is under him
next the other athlete mines in the left derection
last the athlete builds till he falls to land right in the exit when you hear yippe
and thats all
try it

[Pooty]

Hang on, a sudden thought just cropped up. Are you using CustLemm physics? I can see it being possible with those physics, but not the original ones.

Edit: It's possible to beat the original challenge (that is, without the 2 climbers) using CustLemm physics. And you don't need the digger, either.

[GigaLem]

Come take look at these replays
on of my favs
turn around young lemmings
used only builders

[GigaLem]

mayhem 23 100%

[Dullstar]

Come take look at these replays
on of my favs
turn around young lemmings
used only builders

I think it's been done before.  But that's alright, that is pretty tough to pull off!

[namida]

mayhem 23 100%

...PLEASE don't tell me that's meant to be new. Mayhem 23 is one of the easier ones to 100%.

[LemSteven]

Here's some for Lemmings 2 (Because I'm rapidly running out of ideas on the original) 

Classic 4:  No climbers, 100%
Polar 10:  No twisters

[GigaLem]

Classic 7- no wall crawl 99%
tip:just go to the right then bash and build have another lemming come as the builder blocks

[Dullstar]

Classic 7- no wall crawl 99%
tip:just go to the right then bash and build have another lemming come as the builder blocks

I don't need to test that to confirm it is not possible.  I just made a quick testing level in Lemmix to test this, and I found that saving 59 out of 60 is only 98 percent.
So I checked with lower numbers, still making it possible to lose just 1 lemming, and it stayed 98%.  So the only percent possible in your challenge is 100% and every 100% solution in Classic 7 known uses the wall crawl.

[Proxima]

I don't need to test that to confirm it is not possible.  I just made a quick testing level in Lemmix to test this, and I found that saving 59 out of 60 is only 98 percent.
So I checked with lower numbers, still making it possible to lose just 1 lemming, and it stayed 98%.

Yes, Lemmings always rounds down. It can lead to some oddities -- for instance if you make a level with 120 lemmings (the max possible on the Mac version, even though no level actually has more than 80) and 1 required, it will show up as "0%". If you save zero, it will say "You needed 0%. You rescued 0%." but you don't get the password for the next level 

[Clam]

Finally, a new challenge!

For a long time I thought this was impossible, but I just realised that it can be done.

Level: Fun 4 (Now use miners and climbers)
Challenge: Fail the level, without using the nuke, running out of time, or quitting.

[Pooty]

Until I read your post, I thought the same thing. I think I've just worked out what you did, though I might be wrong because I haven't tested it yet. Not being at home has its disadvantages.

Mine the ground beneath a climber, and I think the lemming will go splat (if done correctly).

[chaos_defrost]

I'm surprised at the result, there's a one pixel overhang between the miner tunnel and the fall point but the lemming didn't hit it. I guess that's another way to show that "lemmings cross a one pixel gap when falling" thing happens.

Cool.

[Yawg]

Actually, after a climber hits his head and begins falling, he is displaced one pixel away from the wall. This is a pretty rare trick, but I remember it being used in someone's custom level once; by building a bridge and leaving a 1-pixel gap between the bridge and wall, a lemming could climb the wall past the bridge, hit his head, fall, and land on the bridge.

Pretty nifty 

[ccexplore]

Yawg is correct, this is not a case of the faller skipping over the overhang while falling, but the faller falling a little further away from the wall than logically expected.  I remember first seeing that trick in one of Martin Zulinder's (sp?) levels, way back from when there's still that vtm.hypermart website for CustLemm and LemEdit.

Based on the picture, it also means I.S. could've started mining one pixel further to the right (thus no overhang) and still have the same result (since lemming will still land on same step).  I think the most surprising thing is that the height is enough for splatting; it looks close enough that it might not even work in CustLemm mechanics (not tested though, just a guess).

[alfonz1986]

New fewer builders challenge for all u action junkies.

Mayhem 25 - 100% - 7 builders (Lemmix version)
I'm pretty sure the previous record was 8 builders.

I've only verified on lemmix thus far.

EDIT: There's actually two different solutions available!

[alfonz1986]

Got one more too on Mayhem 25:

7 builders - no floaters - LOSE 1 (98%)

EDIT: Just confirmed lose 1. 

Replay available if ur interested.

[alfonz1986]

After a few more hours of suffering (thank god for replays, I only just started using them) I've finally achieved a 6 builder floaterless solution to Mayhem 25. 

Previous 7 builder challenge still stands.

So,  Mayhem 25 - 6 builders - no floaters.

I personally hit 90% on the dot after many many tries. I seriously doubt the number of builders can be reduced any further than this.

Good luck and I'd love to hear your thoughts on it.



EDIT: As it turns out, I can improve this using an entirely different method to:

Mayhem 25 - 6 builders - no climbers/floaters/miners - LOSE 7 (91%) 

[alfonz1986]

I came up with another challenge.

Its a little easier than my Mayhem 25 challenges but quite silly and good fun 

Taxing 11 - Don't make contact with any of the ascending pillars except the one below the portal

[Yawg]

That was a fun one 

[alfonz1986]

Slight improvement on ccexplore's Tricky 13 3 builder challenge.

Another steel destruction glitch!

Tricky 13 - 100% - 3 builders

[alfonz1986]

I think it's been long enough for any of u to ponder my Mayhem 25 challenges.

Here's my personal records:

 



If u can improve on any of them I'd enjoy hearing about it.

[Simon]

I've enjoyed watching your replays, and you've found some intriguing new ways. Keep them coming! Don't be turned off in case you don't get that many answers. I tried the challenges and didn't succeed, so I wanted other people to respond first.

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

I'll take a look at this later, although I think like a few others here, we may have a case of exhaustion with doing challenges on the original Lemmings games (Lemmings 1 and ONML), and I think attention shifted away from this especially with multiplayer L++.

My mind's currently still more hooked on the Lemmings 2 stuff, but once that wears off, I'll take a look at this.  Sounds like pretty good work though, so congrats!

[alfonz1986]

Another mini-challenge if u will that shouldn't be too difficult if you've seen my Mayhem 25 replays:

I improved the 7 builder - Floaterless - Lose 1 challenge to floaterless & climberless!

Not too hard now 

Although it is somewhat of a shame cos I thought reducing the splat height with a bridge was quite a novel method of getting rid of the floater. Turns out its obsolete!!

EDIT: Alternatively u can use an additional builder to do an 8 builder - floaterless/climberless - 100% solution.
Note: The previous record for the level (according to caminis) was 8 builder 100% with climbers & floaters.

[geoo]

This is my solution to your earlier version of the 6 builder, floaterless challenge. I see you managed to save the blocker at left by conserving the terrain removal skills at the right to eventually improve it to lose 7.

I almost got a 5 builder, floaterless solution, but alas, it loses 10 lemmings, both off by only 1 or two pixels. If you could move the starting steel block down by 2 pixels, and the entire starting island to the right by 1 pixel, it'd work.

I especially like your 100% solutions; I never thought of using the basher to free the blockers; also the way you free the blocker in the second solution releasing the crowd at the same time is pretty nifty.

Yes, using your 7 builder, floaterless, lose 1 solution as a base, your two mini-challenges are only slight variations of it.

The terrain of this level and the skillset seem to allow for a lot of variation, and it's nice how you've come up with so many solution ideas for this level.   

[alfonz1986]

Good job geoo, 

I think u were the only person to respond having managed to complete one of them! Your replay is yet another variation of the 6 builder floaterless solution! I assumed u had found my original Lose 8 solution, which is actually far more cumbersome to achieve than your solution even with replays. Timing had to be absolutely perfect to free the final blocker with a tightly packed crowd! I didn't bother to upload before since I found the easier to execute Lose 7, but I will now:

[alfonz1986]

I was working on the 6 builder floaterless today, attempting either to lose fewer lemmings or reduce a builder and came across a crazy steel destruction glitch. Unfortunately its unsaveable in Lemmix so I had to screenshot it:

Its very difficult to pull off! It occurs when u trap a lemming in the steel with a blocker and then dig down while pausing at the same time. Sort of like the Taxing 10 miner trick to gain height on a wall. If done correctly the digger instantly removes about 3 pixels and stops dead. Then theres just enough room to bash through the remaining steel, so ur able to save a builder & miner using the glitch. It only happens occasionally and of course if u do execute it, any mistakes further on in the level are fatal cos u can't reload!!

Unfortunately it doesn't appear to be that useful to me yet since I was only able to theoretically achieve a 7 builder - Climberless/Floaterless/Minerless - Lose 2 solution. 1 more loss than my previous but I did cut out the miner which is something I guess..


EDIT: I can't get the damned image to paste into this thing!! 

So this leads to a new super-challenge of 7 builders - No climbers/floaters/miners - Lose 2!


EDIT2: Forget my comment about pausing its irrelevant to the glitch. It seems the glitch has the best chance of success when u put the cursor half on the blocker half on the walker and dig. It then removes 3 pixels in one frame and stops dead. The leftover steel on the right can be bashed at the final pixel before the wall.

[alfonz1986]

Sometimes I surprise myself, today I hit the jackpot in Mayhem 25 Madness!!

I absolutely smashed my own record and made a new uber-challenge:

Mayhem 25 - 6 builders - no floaters - LOSE 2!!

Ponder that one at your own peril! 

[geoo]

Your floaterless, 6 builder, lose 7 solution is pretty much what I tried for a 5 builders solution, just losing too many lemmings.

I've already been wondering whether it's possible to get through that steel; seemed a bit suspicious at first as it is not replayable, so I checked in the original game, and it works there as well. In hindsight, it is likely the glitch ClamSpammer described (http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=34.msg1337#msg1337) which was apparently already found even prior to that and that was used in 'Pea Soup' to get downwards through the steel, which dependend on having the cursor over another lemming.
Nice find though, and it's really useful for this level:

With use of that, I found a floaterless, 5 builder, lose 5 solution. (I didn't optimize for lemmings lost, so lose 5 might not be optimal.) I've tried something like this earlier already, but couldn't get through the steel efficiently.

Haven't tried your 6 builder, floaterless, lose 2 yet.

[alfonz1986]

Wow, great work. I'm gonna have a look at the glitch again, maybe u used it more efficiently than I did. 5 builder floaterless Lose 5 is genius!!
Although the 6 builder Lose 2 is very nice as well and doesn't make use of this glitch 

[geoo]

Mayhem 25 - 6 builders - no floaters - LOSE 2!!

Solved, with a twist: no basher, no miner.
And with two more climbers it'd be 100%.

[alfonz1986]

Jesus christ geoo,

You've got me absolutely stumped 

Since I released all my thoughts on the level, you've completely destroyed me on it. I guess u must have found a much better way to employ the glitch.
I read the article from ClamSpam, it sounds similar but not quite the same since his glitch removed 1 pixel and this one removes 3 pixels. I end up having a single lemming with only a miner and a few builders to tackle the wooden stairs at the end! 

As for the 6 builder - floaterless/minerless/basherless - Lose 2

God only knows.. I obviously used a drastically different method to u. I was gonna wait, but since u've bested me on it, I'll upload now:

[geoo]

Well, while you remove three pixels with the glitch, you only dig down one (as ClamSpammer described), as the other two pixel layers are above the lemming and get removed due to the digger mask. And it also works exactly the same way, in that you have to select the blocker under the cursor to make the other lemming dig.

As a hint for my solutions: go over the top.

The second one (6 builders) doesn't use the glitch, but has something in common with your solution.

I can also post the replays if you want.

[alfonz1986]

Hmm, I had thought about trying to do a giant leap in the steel. But I couldn't work out how to get the one pixel hole required. Even with the glitch u get a 3 pixel hole which isnt of much use to me at the moment.

Now I'm trying to cut the basher cycle short to gain height and then double build to the other steel section. Its weird... I end up building from a 1 pixel slot so it seals in the crowd for me to do my building. But then I need to turn the builder around and make him mine to release the crowd. Unfortunately the lemmings are all so tightly packed after doing this I don't have enough time to build the 3 bricks at the end required to reach the portal!! 

I almost found another solution using my Tricky 13 steel destruction technique, although it too has some difficulties...

[ccexplore]

Jesus christ geoo,

You've got me absolutely stumped 

Since I released all my thoughts on the level, you've completely destroyed me on it.

Heh. Well it's geoo we're talking about (remember Tame 13 1 builder?), so get used to it. As I said, I think it was only a matter of distraction that caused a lack of response to your challenges.  That said, from what geoo described it sounds like there are some pretty interesting things you can do with that level, I guess I really should take a look at some point even if there might not be any room left for improvements anymore.

As for giant leap in the steel, I know for a fact that ClamSpammer used something just like that in his 1-minute solution for "And then there were 4...".  He included a Lemmix replay here somewhere on the corresponding challenge thread, so feel free to look it up if you want to.  (Actually, it's quite educational to go through some of his other 1-minute solutions; ClamSpammer does some pretty amazing things with the giant leap glitch.)

[alfonz1986]

Yeah, I've seen that its pretty neat. But he had an abundance of builders and used several to setup the 'jumping platform'. From what I can see I can only use 1-2 in this scenario. I think a fair amount of people did try the challenges initially but only geoo managed one of them on his own. Then to get things moving I decided to release all my solutions and now geoo has managed to significantly better one of the challenges. Its nice to have some new ideas flying about since Mayhem 25 has such potential for epic challenges 


Heres my 'almost-solution' of a 5 builder climberless/floaterless: Timing just isnt there!!

[alfonz1986]

YES!!

Perseverance pays off again.

Mayhem 25 - 5 builders - climberless/floaterless - LOSE 5 LOSE 4

Like u said, optimisation may potentially lead to Lose 4 with my method, might have a look at that now.

Right back at u geoo! 


EDIT: LOSE 4 confirmed.

[alfonz1986]

Another silly little challenge, no where near as hard as the 5 builders:

Mayhem 25 - 7 builders - no floater/digger/miner/basher - LOSE 3

[geoo]

I suspect you found the same 5 builder solution as me, especially considering your follow-up challenge without terrain removal skills; also nice work reducing it to lose 4, I still haven't tried that yet. My solutions below (replay up to the point I use the glitch, followed by screenshots).

ClamSpammer managed some very elegant setups for the giant leap glitch, I particularly remember the 1-builder solution to Pea Soup (the same solution that uses that digging through steel glitch), closing a 3 pixel gap using only one builder.
I used the digger in my 6-builder solution, and two builders to close the gap. Replay is in the archive attached.

[alfonz1986]

Wow, that 6 builder 0ba0mi0fl is pretty tasty. Very nice jumping setup there.
As for my 5 builder floaterless, its pretty similar, although I didn't use the miner to cut the steel down to jumping size. It is possible to get the correct heights by 1 pixel either side without using that. That being said, I'm 1 pixel off a LOSE 3 solution. Might try a little bit on that today. Still, great work.

Although ur statement "2 more climbers it would be 100%" for ur 6 builder floaterless doesn't make sense to me. Since u had to leave a blocker behind in ur solution. That kinda threw off any of my attempts by avoiding a blocker at the start.

[geoo]

I didn't initially plan for making a step with the miner, but it just worked out like that.

With 2 more climbers the 6-builder solution would be 100%, as I checked it's possible with the leftover miner to free the blocker at the beginning and have both lems walk to the right (where they could climb up if there were climbers left).

[alfonz1986]

Ok, that makes sense. But in ur description u made it seem like u could get 100% using that skillset (digger only). I too have been pondering the possibility of a 6 build 100%er. Would be pretty sick.. 

Lose 3, 5 build seems to be just out of reach at the moment. Still 1 pixel shy.

[alfonz1986]

Found another upstairs route steel destruction variation, although it only yields a 6 builder - floaterless - ~ Lose 5 solution. Still quite interesting to execute.
Its amazing how far we've come with this level considering the old records on caminis were 8 builder 100% and 7 builder floaterless lose 5.
Maybe we've hit the limits, I'm running out of thoughts on improvements 
A fresh pair of eyes like CCE or clamspam could be interesting.

[GigaLem]

Tricky 6-Lemmingology-Finish in under 1 minute
Gliches:Yes
Save:100%
Skills:floaters,bashers,bulders and climbers

Give it your best shot

[namida]

Do you even test these before you post them? That challenge is very easily completed without glitches... and for that matter, without bashers too. In fact, it's probably the solution people will usually use the first time, just releasing the crowd a tiny bit sooner to stay within the 1 minute.

[GigaLem]

i would my Dos lemmings levels arn't working
As in The original level are acting like the holiday levels

[ccexplore]

(This doesn't quite fit in this challenge thread but there's simply no challenge thread for this, so oh well.)

Think you know the "maximum saved" results for PC Lemmings 2?  Well think again.  Thanks to my discovery of the glitch allowing you to survive the bouncing tennis ball via framestepping, it's now possible to save all 60 lemmings in Sports 1!  Yep, that level whose previous best result was a lose-2 I think.

This really has to be seen to be believed, so I've attached a zipped DOSBox video.  I've also included a comment below in spoilers related to the solution's skill usage:

If you're wondering why the solution still uses so many skills given the power of the glitch, well unfortunately right now, framestepping is still not reliable enough to make more minimal-skill solutions feasible for execution, as those solutions would require dealing with both tennis balls with at least one (if not both) of their kill-zones intact.  I've tried a number of times the past week or so and keeps screwing up mid-way.  Whereas here, you'd note in my video that you only need to deal with one tennis ball, and even then I've used the skills to minimize the amount of time a lemming would walk in the ball's kill zone, making the solution much more tolerant to mistakes in the frame-stepping.

[edit: once again looks like I'll need FileDen for the "large" attachment, @#$%@ http://www.fileden.com/files/2010/7/15/2915232//Sports1_save60.zip]

[geoo]

Nifty, so overall we should be down to lose 2 (Classic 5 and Polar 8 ) now!

I found a somewhat less tedious (i.e. less framestepping) way to save 100% using your glitch, I also recoded a video, but for some reason it looks blurry and has sound even though it uses the same codec as yours, so here's just an outline:
(I really should better revise for my upcoming exams instead of doing this...)

Bomb at the right of the level to make a holding pit accessible; make sure that no-one splats in the process. In my attempt 3 lemmings landed in a bunch under the right tennis ball, the rest getting safely into the holding pit. Step them through the ball, and have them land in front of the left ball. Flame away some terrain below it while framestepping to make sure none of them gets crushed. Flame again at the bottom of the hole you created with the first flame thrower to break through the pipe. The lemmings will land one floor below and barely survive the fall landing in front of the steam pipe. Release the crowd with the last flame thrower and guide them through the balls.

It seems that in general many animations are affected by pausing and fast forward somehow, and for the objects where the interaction with lemmings is animation frame dependent this can have a crucial effect.

The framestepping setup in DosBox is really awesome, thanks for documenting it!

[ccexplore]

I also recoded a video, but for some reason it looks blurry and has sound even though it uses the same codec as yours

I don't know anything about the blurry part, but as for sound, I actually turned off sound and music in Lemmings 2 itself before I recorded my videos.  I do that because I find that the video zips up noticeably less efficiently when there's sound recorded.  Of course, that was for the good old days when the forum doesn't complain of 4-6MB attachments.  Now that I apparently have to go through FileDen for all my movie uploads, I might as well keep the sound and maybe even skip the zipping......

You're taking summer classes?

[LemSteven]

Wow, ccexplore, great job! 

Unfortunately, I don't have anything to add to the challenge results right now, and I probably won't for several weeks.  I'm in the process of moving right now, so most of my personal belongings are packed up.

[Simon]

Yeah, great job! Stretching the physics to their limits. 

Immediately go back to frameskipping and holding the ball up further.

-- Simon

[geoo]

I don't know anything about the blurry part, but as for sound, I actually turned off sound and music in Lemmings 2 itself before I recorded my videos.  I do that because I find that the video zips up noticeably less efficiently when there's sound recorded.  Of course, that was for the good old days when the forum doesn't complain of 4-6MB attachments.  Now that I apparently have to go through FileDen for all my movie uploads, I might as well keep the sound and maybe even skip the zipping......

You're taking summer classes?

Ah, I only disabled the sound in the dosbox.conf, not ingame, which caused the sounds to be recorded into the video.
But no matter what settings I choose in the dosbox.conf, it always results in a video of resolution 320x200 (as opposed to 640x400 yours has) looking blurry/'jpeg-y' and not crisp like yours does. According to the doc the video output resolution is determined by the 'video mode', but nowhere there's an explanation what the 'video mode' setting actually is.
As for uploading, I noticed with 7z you can get your last video down to 3MB, but I don't know whether that's sufficient to get below the attachment size limit. (And DosBox doesn't seem to offer keystroke recordings, which would solve the size issue altogether.)
No, no summer classes; exams tend to be scattered across the semester break over here.

Yay steganography!

[ccexplore]

]Ah, I only disabled the sound in the dosbox.conf, not ingame, which caused the sounds to be recorded into the video.

Yeah, if you look at the comments in the .conf file, "nosound" still performs sound emulation, so sound will still be recorded into the video.

But no matter what settings I choose in the dosbox.conf, it always results in a video of resolution 320x200 (as opposed to 640x400 yours has) looking blurry/'jpeg-y' and not crisp like yours does.

I don't know for sure, but try these settings (see bolded):

[render]
# frameskip: How many frames DOSBox skips before drawing one.
#    aspect: Do aspect correction, if your output method doesn't support scaling this can slow things down!.
#    scaler: Scaler used to enlarge/enhance low resolution modes. If 'forced' is appended,the scaler will be used even if the result might not be desired.
#            Possible values: none, normal2x, normal3x, advmame2x, advmame3x, advinterp2x, advinterp3x, hq2x, hq3x, 2xsai, super2xsai, supereagle, tv2x, tv3x, rgb2x, rgb3x, scan2x, scan3x.

frameskip=0
aspect=false
scaler=normal2x

You might also want to try this (see bolded):

[dosbox]
# language: Select another language file.
#  machine: The type of machine tries to emulate.
#           Possible values: hercules, cga, tandy, pcjr, ega, vgaonly, svga_s3, svga_et3000, svga_et4000, svga_paradise, vesa_nolfb, vesa_oldvbe.
# captures: Directory where things like wave, midi, screenshot get captured.
#  memsize: Amount of memory DOSBox has in megabytes.
#             This value is best left at its default to avoid problems with some games,
#             though few games might require a higher value.
#             There is generally no speed advantage when raising this value.

language=
machine=vgaonly
captures=capture
memsize=16

Because I seem to remember on one computer that without the vgaonly, screenshots come out at 320x200 instead of 640x400.

[geoo]

Ok thanks, setting machine=vgaonly did it, it was previously set to vga (vgaonly isn't even listed in the commentary notes in my dosbox.conf, but it works). So I guess this was what they were referring to with 'video mode'.
Downside seems to be that I can't have proper fullscreen anymore, it's as small as windowed, just centered on the screen.

[Simon]

Make separate config files for recording and regular playing, and two links to Dosbox. :]

-- Simon

[ccexplore]

Ok thanks, setting machine=vgaonly did it, it was previously set to vga (vgaonly isn't even listed in the commentary notes in my dosbox.conf, but it works).

Hmm, which version of DOSBox are you using?  I'm currently still on 0.73, haven't upgraded to 0.74 yet.  If you're using older versions you should probably move to 0.73 at least.

So I guess this was what they were referring to with 'video mode'.

To be fair, the game is using 320x200 mode, so I don't really know whether the 640x400 recording frame size is intentional or not.  Hopefully it'll remain like that in future DOSBox versions.  Or maybe they'll add a configuration option that determines whether the video frames are recorded pre- or post-scaling.

Downside seems to be that I can't have proper fullscreen anymore, it's as small as windowed, just centered on the screen.

Sounds like a video card issue since I don't have that problem on my computer when I checked just now (I normally don't use fullscreen).  Follow Simon's advice I guess.

[geoo]

Hmm, which version of DOSBox are you using?  I'm currently still on 0.73, haven't upgraded to 0.74 yet.  If you're using older versions you should probably move to 0.73 at least.

I'm actually using 0.74, however I remember now I simply copied over the old config from 0.65, that's why it's missing these comments I guess.

Yeah, I guess I'll use the settings that work normally for me, and switch whenever I want to record a video.

[Clam]

Think you know the "maximum saved" results for PC Lemmings 2?  Well think again.  Thanks to my discovery of the glitch allowing you to survive the bouncing tennis ball via framestepping, it's now possible to save all 60 lemmings in Sports 1!  Yep, that level whose previous best result was a lose-2 I think.

I never did claim to know the scores... but this is a fantastic result! Having to lose two lemmings to (of all things!) a trampoline log-jam was always somewhat unsatisfying, especially on the first level of a tribe

The frameskipping glitches are hilarious too, especially the dragon one

[alfonz1986]

Hi guys,

Haven't posted in a while (nor played for that matter). Found an interesting challenge solution today which hopefully hasn't been posted previously:

Solve Mayhem 7 "poles apart" without bashing or digging through any of the 7 thin pillars used in all regular solutions.

Good luck...

[Clam]

I do recall doing this one (or at least, something equivalent to this) before, but I guess it's worth bringing up again for those who haven't seen it. It might even be on the old forum, which hasn't been accessible for a while, in which case maybe no one remembers it (though I doubt that)

EDIT: For alfonz1986, here's my solution to the first Mayhem 25 challenge.

[alfonz1986]

Nice one ClamSpam 

Thats basically identical to my solution.

I wonder if 6 builder 100% is possible? Although I highly doubt it.

[alfonz1986]

Ok, I'll tighten the requirements of the Mayhem 7 challenge. Perhaps this will actually make it easier...

Solve Mayhem 7
without touching/building on any of the terrain the poles are connected to, or the poles themselves
LOSE 1 (98%)
no climbers

[alfonz1986]

Got another solid variation

Solve Mayhem 7 - 100% - backroute it over the top - climberless -  3 bashers max
(pole connected terrain is in, but no terrain removal of any ground on it/or poles, no building over poles)

EDIT: I'll post my solution replays in about a months time if noone has responded with theirs.

[alfonz1986]

Ok, I just blew the doors right off it!

Came up with a truly beautiful & elegant solution to make both the existing challenges obsolete!
As if they weren't hard enough already!

Solve Mayhem 7 - 100% - backroute it over the top
(no touching/building/bashing/digging any of the terrain the poles are connected to or the poles themselves, no building over poles)

HINT: It uses every skill except some floaters

[alfonz1986]

Heres my solution to the first problem '98% LOSE 1 no climber'

[geoo]

Solve Mayhem 7 - 100% - backroute it over the top
(no touching/building/bashing/digging any of the terrain the poles are connected to or the poles themselves, no building over poles)

HINT: It uses every skill except some floaters

1-Upping this one: no climbers.

[ccexplore]

Neat.  geoo's improved challenge actually managed to be a good hint for me.  I tried briefly on Monday and then have no time rest of the week (I had to worked Saturdays for past 2 weeks now, oy), and yet now I have a solution.

[alfonz1986]

cool, im glad theres been some interest. I'll take a look when I get a chance and try to solve it

[alfonz1986]

I had a feeling it had something to do with fine tuning of the release rate (Clamspam sent me a replay of one of his first attempts at it with this method). I played about a little bit myself and found a setup that could work with careful tweaking of the release rate, but didn't expend the time to find the exact rate. I have since looked at your solution CCE and its very similar.

All this being said... My solution in my opinion is even more interesting than this one and still stands as relevant since changing the release rate is not required.

So... Solve Mayhem 7 - 100% - backroute it over the top - no release rate changing
(no touching/building/bashing/digging any of the terrain the poles are connected to or the poles themselves, no building over poles)

[geoo]

My solution doesn't require fiddling with the RR, I just set it to 99 once to speed things up. (And then using the Benny Hill trick, if you know the Cheapo level by Insane Steve I'm referring to.)
I saw the RR modification in ccexplore's solution as more of a technical detail than a defining feature, as apart from that, there aren't many differences between our two solutions. (I haven't watched any Mayhem 7 challenge replays other than ccexplore's, for the record.)
EDIT: Tested it, and my solution also works without setting the RR to 99. Time limit just gets pretty tight then.

[alfonz1986]

Very nice starting setup to free one lemming while containing the rest in a pit only as wide as one digger. Thats the crucial part to get the timing here.

I'm running out of ways to keep the challenge relevant to my solution

Only one I can think of is the ceiling route must be more than one pixel thick at the bottom hehe

[alfonz1986]

Here's a cool challenge I think you guys will like:

Solve Wicked 9 - no blockers

I read ClamSpam's "what skills can't you live without" thread and it says a blocker is required in all solutions, so hopefully this challenge hasn't cropped up before.

I stumbled across this looking for a 100% solution to the level, but it appears to be out of reach at the moment.

EDIT: Solve Wicked 9 - no blockers - 19 builders max

[geoo]

I thought this was already done by someone as I remember trying something without blockers there once, but apparently it wasn't.
Anyway I managed it this time, nice one.

[alfonz1986]

1-Upped this: 

19 builders.

Further reduction may be possible

[alfonz1986]

Ok, I've just blown the doors off this challenge again.

But I don't want to post the new requirements since this always seems to act as a way for the challenge experts to eliminate red herring solutions

I'll just let u stew a while longer and see what u come up with....

[Clam]

Well, I did it with 18 builders, but that's hardly "blowing the doors off" the challenge. I wonder what else is involved...

Good job finding a no-blockers solution in the first place

[alfonz1986]

Ok, nice job clam. Basically I can solve it 17 builders - LOSE 2 or 19 builders - LOSE 1

Actually if there was 21 builders in the level I would have 100%. It may still be possible by tweaking my method

[alfonz1986]

Jeez... my brains feels scrambled. I am SO close to 100% but just not quite there. This level really is pretty amazing... it originally looks as if there is very little option on what to do at the start, but theres actually tonnes of intricate, clever ways to contain the lemmings.
Hopefully one combination will work out for me.

[alfonz1986]

If the doors were blown off the previous challenge... I think the building has just exploded.

Who said the 100% challenges were done to death?  ie no improvements possible?

This is probably one of the very hardest 100% solutions I have come across in the Lemmings games....

new UBER challenge: Wicked 9 - 100% SAVED
 
                                  

[ccexplore]

Cool!  Good job!

It's funny how it helps sometimes just to have someone else solve it first, even if you don't actually see anything they did. (Turns out I had been <edit: moved to spoilers>. )  Here's a Lemmix replay and a screenshot (zipped) for anyone who just want to look.

[minor note: one of the RR changes (excluding the final RR 99) is superfluous in case you're confused about its purpose edit: haha, I'm the one who's confused , the RR change still serves a purpose, I think]

doing the bottom part wrong of all things, even though that part was already featured in other challenge solutions (I think)

[LemSteven]

Oh my 

Congratulations! 

Back on the old Lemmingswelt forums, when we were searching out all of the level records, someone (I think it was either ccexplore or tseug) came to the conclusion that 100% was impossible due to a builder shortage.  I looked at the level several times since then and came to the same conclusion (a Taxing 16-like method to hold the crowd falls short by three builders).  I never would have thought to do what you did!

I can't view replays, but I was able figure out the solution by studying ccexplore's screenshots and deducing where each builder had to be placed.  From there, I was able to figure out on my own how to get the timing down so that the builders interact with each other properly to get the desired effect.

This is truly an incredible solution, rivaling the Lose 2 solution to Mayhem 10 and the 100% solution to Mayhem 2 in terms of difficulty.  It makes my Mayhem 29 Lose 2 solution look easy in comparison.  Well done once again!

[alfonz1986]

Wow, very impressive find there ccexplore.

Whats even more interesting....I found a different solution!! 

I didnt realise you could turn builders around like that at 89 RR. I did however use a similar(ish) trick to turn a builder around using a shrugger.

Here's mine.

[alfonz1986]

I almost wish the bottom was slightly lower so ur method wouldn't work I think ur really close to the splat height there. My solution would work with almost any splat height

Also, its a pity u solved it and uploaded it so quickly. Now all the lazy people will just download ur file instead of trying it themselves 

Still...nice alternate solution. I think I worked on it for about a 9 hour period over a few days before I found it.

[ccexplore]

Wow, your solution is even more impressive than expected!

Definitely didn't know about the shrugger trick, I don't think I've seen that before, and probably won't occur to me for a long time if I were to work it out myself unless I got lucky.    I think your method may well be the best method possible (certainly the best known now) for creating a builder-only right-blocking structure not relying on external terrain pixels.  I don't think I'd be able to substitute my "rapid stacking of builders" method in your solution due to the high RR necessary, which has some obvious subsequent negative side effects.

I also had an incorrect assumption that things won't work out if the right-blocking structure is too close to the left-blocking structure, totally forgetting there is a simple way to turn around the lemming that built over and land onto the left-blocking structure. Forcing the right-blocking structure to start off farther to the right means I can't get the right-facing builder to float down to either of the lower platform (he stops building in between the 2 lower platforms), forcing me to do the lower parts my way.  (Indeed, I didn't think the lower part could be done with only 7 builders until your victory forced me to start revisiting some of my assumptions, and that happened to be the first one I picked to attack. )  And you're right, the fall distance is exactly the maximum possible.  I totally lucked out.

Also, its a pity u solved it and uploaded it so quickly. Now all the lazy people will just download ur file instead of trying it themselves 

Haha, you need to think more like a lazy person.  Someone who's going to be lazy about it (or just too busy) is simply not going to spend weeks on this whether you upload anything or not.   Others will exercise self-control until they either figure it out themselves or give up.

[Pooty]

I played that level last night knowing that 100% was possible. I got nowhere. Good job, both of you.

[alfonz1986]

Until someone teaches me how to paste hidden quotes, Im going to fill the 'blue message' spaces until I get a white one

[alfonz1986]

@ CCE (invisible)

It may have looked relatively simple turning the left builder, but actually it was the crux of the whole solution. I couldn't afford to waste two builders turning him around against the wall. And I had to totally teach myself the most effective variations in making 3 builder walls. As for my method on the right. I agree, I think this is the most efficient (minimum builder) way of doing it. Although I discovered this technique very early (by accident) and its the same for my other solutions.
So in terms of blockerless builder efficiency I can do 17 builder - LOSE 2 or and 18-builder LOSE 1 with my method. The 100% solution was just a very clever tweak
U should have seen some of the stuff I was trying before i found it..... I almost wished it had worked cos it was so sick, but the timing was just slightly off.

[Simon]

Haha, you need to think more like a lazy person.

Whoa -- if even the busy beaver himself considers himself lazy, then it's time to close the forum.

I watched the 100 % replays with geoo, both are really neat, they need ultimate timing/precision in order to turn builders with more builders.

alfonz: Spoiler box = make quote, then a color tag with color #dee7ef.

-- Simon

[alfonz1986]

@CCE

Looking further at ur solution its essentially a modified version of geoo's original solution to my no-blocker challenge. Did u see that replay he posted? Damn that splat height... U have ruined my plans of leaving the whole forum scratching their heads for ages while I refuse to release my solution until someone solves it or everyone gives up Oh well, lemmings works in mysterious ways hehe...

[Pooty]

Please try not to exclude the rest of the forum from discussion. If you only want to talk to ccexplore, send him a PM. Thanks.

[alfonz1986]

I don't see what the problem is. Can't u see what I wrote in the textbox? Im merely discussing the differences between our two solutions, which I'm happy for anyone to see, without giving spoilers to the community if people are trying the challenge themselves.

[Minim]

Here's another challenge, for those who haven't given up playing Lemmings yet.

Crazy 15. Pass the level with nothing other than 1 blocker, 7 builders, 3 bashers and 1 miner.

[Clam]

Got it with a few skills to spare (1 blocker, 2 bashers).

I've attached a replay, since that seems to be acceptable in this thread now.

[Minim]

Interesting! That method you did was different to what I did because you used less skills. It might not be the most satisfying solution, but at least it worked.
My intended solution saved more than 88%, and used all the skills.

OK, I have just thought of a new type of challenge.

Swapping the positions of the exit and the entrance, solve Wild 17. Here's the attachment of the level if you want to download it.

[Clam]

Good idea . But, rather than the 'sensible' method of putting the exit on the ground below where the hatch used to be, I've taken it one step further and moved the entrance and exit to each other's exact x-y coordinates. And, it's still solvable! Level and replay attached.

I actually considered this idea once for a challenge thread, but I never could decide whether to swap the objects the 'sensible' way, or actually swap their positions. Plus the forum was in a bit of a lull at that point.

[finlay]

I think I tried that with a couple of levels once. I also once took the levels from ONML and ran them with original Lemmings, which is quite easy to do on the Mac because you just move a file over. Basically, you get lots and lots of jumbled-up terrain. It crashed a lot, though, because of any invalid tiles that happened to come up (like the brick tileset from ONML has a lot more valid tiles than the rock tileset from L1), so I had to keep going through and changing the tileset until it worked.

[Clam]

I also once took the levels from ONML and ran them with original Lemmings, which is quite easy to do on the Mac because you just move a file over. Basically, you get lots and lots of jumbled-up terrain.

There's a topic for that, and similar creations.

[Clam]

I just found a great 'swap the entrance and exit' challenge: Flurry 12 (with the exits moved down onto the terrain). The level is attached. (I forget which entrance order Holiday Lemmings uses, but it's solvable either way )

Also, last post before I go. Seeya (:

[Minim]

Without moving the screen solve the following levels:

Tame 15
Taxing 16
Mayhem 18

This type of challenge originally came off the top of my head back here. I don't think Tricky 2 was a very exciting level for this type of challenge, but I'm sure these three levels are worth trying out.

[finlay]

Here you go. That was a fun challenge. It's weird how much you have to find new ways to do some of the levels, like Mayhem 18, where I nearly ran out of room and had to let a couple of lemmings die.... and if the cursor touches the side it can suddenly jump and ruin the attempt.

(Now I know there's obviously no way I can verify that I didn't move the screen when I played through, so you'll just have to take my word for it...)

[Minim]

Well done for solving these three levels. Those weren't too hard at all. In fact I felt gutted that you just used two bashers for Tame 15 as I solved it with pure luck by blowing up the double blocker at the right time.

Now here's a MUCH harder level for this specific type of challenge. Solve Fun 15.

[Clam]

Without moving the screen solve the following levels:

Since you can't prove that the screen hasn't been scrolled across (short of making a DOSBox video, which is tiresome), would it be good enough to change the requirement to 'assign skills only to lemmings inside the initial screen boundary'? For Fun 15 in particular, it would be useful to scroll across and see what you're doing. Scrolling doesn't affect the lemmings at all, so any such solution proves that you can solve the level without moving the screen.

Edit: solved Fun 15

[Minim]

Without moving the screen solve the following levels:

Since you can't prove that the screen hasn't been scrolled across (short of making a DOSBox video, which is tiresome), would it be good enough to change the requirement to 'assign skills only to lemmings inside the initial screen boundary'? For Fun 15 in particular, it would be useful to scroll across and see what you're doing. Scrolling doesn't affect the lemmings at all, so any such solution proves that you can solve the level without moving the screen.

I think that is a better idea as I did feel like trying to scroll near the end when the basher is almost level with the exit after I release the other lemmings. There is no proof whether you moved the screen or not on Lemmix. However on Lemmini their replays do record screen movement (Which makes me anticipate rather than relax )

[Simon]

Pondering about Fun 15 (Don't let your eyes deceive you) without scrolling away from the initially visible start area... Does the challenge allow the Dragonslover assignment bug? I.e. hover over hero, hold right mouse button, let hero walk out of screen, hover over blocker, assign skill to remote hero by clicking on the blocker?

And if so, does the stricter fomulation "assign in initially visible area" include Dragonslover assignments via blockers inside the area to workers outside of it?

-- Simon

[finlay]

I really can't think of a way to do it; whether you go by the ceiling route or floor route you're either going to have to build over the pit, or dig down over the exit, and both ways involve a skill assignment off the first screen. (utilising bugs is unfair )

[ccexplore]

I have a very quick look just now and I believe you don't need to cheat with DragonLover's bug:

It's a little tight, but I think nuking will work w/o killing too many.  You can lose up to 40.  The fall takes I think 19 frames (so 19 died from exploding before finishing the fall) and there's 16 frames of "oh-no" before the explosion happens and on top of that, you lose no more than I think 16 or 17 due to the fact that fallers explode immediately on countdown 0 (thus 16-17 frame sooner than the early ones who gets to do "oh no"), so altogether it should be about 35-36 lost.

[edit1: actually, maybe that doesn't work as well as I initially hope, since falling lemmings explode sooner.  I still say it's a cheat to use DragonLover's bug, although I guess if you go with minimac's formulation it's technical not a cheat.]

[edit2: I did a more empirical test with modified version of another level (not hard to guess which one, I suspect that one inspired minimac's challenge for Fun 15), and looks like it does work out--the minimum loss is 36.]

Indeed, I have to argue DragonLover's bug is not permissible under Clam's formulation of the conditions, since the lemming receiving the skill assignment is well outside the initial screen boundaries, even though your mouse cursor happens to be inside and hovering over some other lemming.  It is a bit contrived to say that you are assigning the skill to the lemming under the mouse cursor when some other lemming receives the skill.

[edit3: figured out the error in my initial spoiler that confused my reasonings.  Fixed the spoiler with the correct reasonings.]
[edit4: reworded spoiler to make reasonings clearer, I failed to explain everything.]

[Clam]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about the right-click bug. I'd say it is legitimate to use this, since you can do it without scrolling the screen. In fact, this glitch is almost tailor-made for this type of challenge .

I strongly disagree with the 'using bugs is unfair' argument. While there are a lot of challenges that don't require glitches, there's a limit as to how far you can go without them. Abusing glitches is great fun (to me at least), and leads to better scores. I appreciate the 'pureness' (or whatever you want to call it) of glitch-free solutions, and this is recognised by the 'glitch' tags in many of the challenge topics. (By the way, you're more than welcome to start 'glitch-free' versions for those that don't, eg. least skills.) But abusing unintended game mechanics opens up so many more options; it adds another dimension to the game. If you don't like glitches, then don't use them, but to me they give the game more flavour, and - crucially - more longevity.

As for Fun 15, I did it by the method explained in ccexplore's spoiler. Here's a replay.

[ccexplore]

Oh yeah, I completely forgot about the right-click bug. I'd say it is legitimate to use this, since you can do it without scrolling the screen. In fact, this glitch is almost tailor-made for this type of challenge .

Ok, but I worry it might make this type of challenge a little too easy.  Also it is only logically consistent under minimac's original formulation of screen scrolling, and is probably against the spirit of what minimac originally envision the challenge to be like.

Nevertheless, if you manage a use for it more interesting than getting a fully remote-controlled hero lemming, I'm happy to look the other way.

[edit: for more info on DragonLover's right-click bug (unfortunately it isn't on the glitch topic it seems): http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=252.msg7709#msg7709]

[Clam]

Nevertheless, if you manage a use for it more interesting than getting a fully remote-controlled hero lemming, I'm happy to look the other way.

Remote-control lemmings aren't interesting enough for you? Seems pretty neat to me

The only things that stop this being a viable challenge thread (IMHO) are:
1: You'd have to use the same setup every time (set a blocker, send one remote-control lemming ahead, glitch-assign skill, rinse and repeat if necessary), which would get boring,
2: The glitch doesn't work in Lemmix, so you have to use DOSBox
3: Without the glitch, most levels are either trivial, or clearly impossible. Fun 15 is a rare, though nice, exception.

Also, it is mentioned in the glitch thread (under 'other'), though I should add a link to that topic. (edit: done)

[ccexplore]

3: Without the glitch, most levels are either trivial, or clearly impossible.
1: You'd have to use the same setup every time (set a blocker, send one remote-control lemming ahead, glitch-assign skill, rinse and repeat if necessary), which would get boring

Couldn't have said it better: even with the glitch, seems like it'll mostly be setup #1, which is boring and also intellectually not particularly satisfying (it's practically just a remote-control version of a standard hero lemming solution with the standard blocker crowd control).  I guess things might be more interesting when there are no blockers, which also happens to be the case for a lot of the later, harder levels.  But then you'll likely need a lot of spare skills to keep going a lemming that is always doing something (so you can use it in place of the blocker for doing remote-assign), and not a lot of later harder levels have those in abundant supply.

So, not sure if the glitch really does much towards #3.

As for #2, I had been working on LemmixPlayer a while ago, fixing various Lemmix emulation bugs and also improving the replay support, it probably wouldn't be too hard to get it to support DragonLover's bug as well.

[mobius]

here's a challenge based on a youtube video done on the Super Nintendo from 2008 (but me and Clam checked it's possible on DOS/Lemmix) if you know it don't spoil it for someone who doesn't!


Solve Mayhem: Pea Soup without building over the soup.

(there's more than one way)

[Minim]

Interesting idea for a challenge, but this one has been solved already. There's a link around about here that has one solution coinciding with the "fewest builders" solution to Pea Soup as far as I know.

[mobius]

Lemmings Revolution; "Take her up to warp speed captain"

Solve the level so that every lemming saved enters the balloon upside down.

(since this worked out so well, I'm gonna try this for others as well)

[Minim]

Quite an unusual challenge but I've solved it, sparing I think 2 builders.

Let the second lemming block the others while the first lemming mines through the first obstacle. Build before he hits the second anti-gravity pad. Mine through the next obstacle and build a zig-zag staircase right-to-left until he reaches the steel ledge. Turn him into a climber facing left and build towards the balloon. Release the others by letting someone mine under the blocker. Build one last staircase but watch out for the shredder.

Here's another LR challenge. Solve 10.5 (Scale that wall) in under 2 minutes.

[mobius]

oh cool. Another person who plays LR. 

I found a different way but your way is better.

my way:
-Let 4 lemmings go then block. Mine/dig/bash through first platform.
-last one builds over the second gravity pad.
-the first lem shuts the first vertical door, the second shuts the second horizontal door and the third mines a hole in the platform on the left in between doors for the others to go "up" through. -The last lemming builds up to that hole then build right to the balloon.
The shredder is all the way over on the other side of the level and shouldn't be a problem. I avoided that area of the level completely. I think that's where you went. (which sounds easier now that I think about it)

-I just tried and succeeded going your way (no need to flip any switches and go around the level) - it definitely saves more lemmings. I'm not sure if the shredder would've gotten in my way or not. My lemmings by-passed it when it was position away from them, luckily.

then I'll have a look at your challenge

[mobius]

here's a challenge alternate version of Patience.

EDIT: I forgot to attach the level 

--
I haven't solved the above challenge yet.  [Solve 10.5 (Scale that wall) in under 2 minutes.] but I think I have a way it might be done;

block the lemmings on the door above the balloon. Have two or three go left and blow a hole in the floor and have one bash under the tall door then all the way left. Then build to the wall on the left, climb and build over to the switch. build to turn him around then he flips the switch.

Like I said idk if this works or not.

[Minim]

Interesting, I never thought of heading left to hit the high switch. Another backroute to what is supposed to be a challenging level. " title="Angry" class="smiley" />

I have tried your method and have just managed to execute it with only one second to spare. There is a guaranteed quicker way to get to the switch so that it is possible in about 1:30 (and that you can save more lemmings too).

As for your paitence challenge, it wasn't as hard as I thought it was going to be, but at least you removed those bashers which could've made it much easier. I saved a few skills on that challenge.

[Proxima]

Here's your Patience challenge done with 100%.

If we're posting modified levels here, I'll attach Mayhem 29 from the TMChallenge set. Most of the set aren't too tough, but this one is worthy of note as an individual challenge.

[Clam]

I found a different 100% solution to Proxima's, for the Patience challenge

edit: Solved the Save Me challenge, without abusing steel glitches (with them it's somewhat easier). Saved 76/80.

[mobius]

those are nice solutions, but try it now. 
note: I didn't have time to extensively check this for backroutes sorry. In any case this level has turned out to be great for challenges and inspiration. by other people too apparently.

--

interesting about Scale that wall. I still have to try your solution minimac.
I don't think I would really call this level flawed with 'backroutes' though. I think these solutions are much harder technically and somewhat harder to see than the intended. I said this in another thread but I think the game designer may have intentionally left other possible routes in for 'further play enjoyment'. (I know I would do that if I was a game designer, anyway)
Especially because some of them in other levels are ridiculously easy to see. (Goonies)

[Minim]

Not bad, adding steel blocks to hinder one of my methods, but I still managed to come up with a good solution. Even though it required some luck (and that I saved three skills). Here's a replay.

[mobius]

 " title="Angry" class="smiley" /> there I go *again* always cutting corners and I always waste my own time doing so.

I should have originally put steel across the whole top. Anyway, another good solution. (the anger is pointed at myself)