Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour  (Read 5138 times)

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Offline Flopsy

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #15 on: September 23, 2018, 09:31:03 pm »
I have cancelled my LP of this pack and subsequently pulled the Part 1 video of Lemmings World Tour.

I feel the quality of this pack severely deteriorated in Rank 2 Amateur and descended into a mass of troll levels. I had high hopes for this pack and was extremely let down by the severe drop in quality that happens about midway through Rank 2 so I decided to stop recording and cancel the LP.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm sorry if this comes across as harsh but apparently it's my day for telling things exactly as it is.

Best of luck to Arty with his LP, if you make it to the end of the pack, you'll get kudos from me for sure!
Don't tell me solutions to levels which I have not solved.

Lemmings: Gotta Go Fast - My NEW (in development) Sonic tileset dedicated level pack :)
SEB Lems - My first level pack (175 levels)
Flopsy's Youtube Channel - Watch Lemmings videos/streams with live commentary
Flopsy's Sonic Graphic Sets - Download Neo Lemmix compatible Sonic tilesets.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #16 on: September 24, 2018, 09:31:12 am »
Hi Flopsy,

I think you're falling into a similar trap that I fell into repeatedly with regard to Nepster Lems - I accused Nepster of having designed overly-precise solutions for given levels ("Jump in the Ring", "Final Frustration"), when in reality, I simply hadn't figured out the correct solution yet. (So, sorry to Nepster from me at this point! ;) )

First of all: All the levels you're talking about are there to teach the player about certain tricks - not to troll. That's why the pre-level text hints are there.

I'm going to make my comments visible for everyone, so as to prevent possible future frustration for other players - I'd rather have people know a bit about the solution than giving up entirely, so here we go:

Quote
Amateur 7 - why the hell is a Stoner bridge level like this going to be fun to play? I just ended up skipping over this one after a few minutes of trying to pass the vertical wall!

You do not have to create a long stairway of stoners all the way up to the vertical wall. You have to bomb through it at the bottom with a faller, then stone after the faller to make the drop survivable.

If you mean getting across the steel blocks at the bottom: That requires a total of one bomber and three stoners.

Have you played "Ten Story Stories and Tall Tales" from the Snack Pack? Or that vertical Sewer shaft level from CasuaLemmings? Those are levels with 50+ bombers or stoners. Amateur 7 is nothing.

The whole point of these early Amateur levels is to group skills by types and make solutions restricted around these (only upward-moving, only downward-moving, only creative, only destructive, only lethal, etc.) This is the same thing I've done in Pit Lems.

Quote
Amateur 13 - again, why is this radiation level going to be fun?

You got more than enough blockers to stop the radiation lemmings exactly at the point where you want them to stop. I use radiation because I want to limit the area where you can use bombers, compared to pickup skills which can be used anywhere in a level; I do not use it as a replacement for timed bombers.

Hence, there is nothing difficult execution-wise about this level. It is simply a radiation-based puzzle.

Pit Lems contained these as well, and two of them got nominated for level of the year. You ended up skipping over them, to my mind simply because they contained radiation. ;) Well, they can't have been so bad, because someone considered them worthy of nomination - it certainly wasn't me! :D I myself was surprised about that, and it encouraged me to create further fair puzzles involving radiation, because that's something comparatively unexplored.

Quote
Amateur 16 - I complained about this exact trick being used in SubLems, it caused a controversial topic at the time and I don't see why this level should be spared being mentioned this time.

I think your main issue with this level is probably the glider-stoner combination, since you mentioned before that you hate those ;) . The intended solution is to platform over the exit, then place several stoners directly on top of each other, creating a verticall wall the gliders inevitably bump against, no matter at which height they hit it, and turn around. Then you simply dig through the platform at the top over the exit, so that the floaters fall right into the exit and the gliders fall towards said wall.

Quote
All these levels in a small space of time was enough to eventually kill the LP, the last straw was seeing that Amateur 28 was called Zombie and I immediately quit the pack at this point.

Well, if you don't like Zombie levels, that's your right, but I don't see how this is a fault of the pack. Paralems was the only pack of mine that made extensive use of Zombies. All the others just use them sporadically.

Quote
and it looks like you spent too much time making the levels pretty and not enough time making quality solutions.

I think you missed the point of this pack. If you want something exclusively mechanically challenging, try Pit Lems (or Lemmicks ;P ).

I said right from the getgo that Lemmings World Tour would be inspired by Arty's level building style, meaning "optics first".

If some of the "pretty" levels have dull solutions in your opinion, those may be backroutes?

Or does the difficulty simply not increase fast enough for you (since you suggested you could tolerate simplistic levels on Noisemaker but then expected a steeper increase)?

Because for Pit Lems, I basically got the feedback from nin10doadict that it got difficult too fast. So of course, with 240 levels in the main ranks, I can afford to have difficulty increase as gradually as possible.

Quote
But the fact that you've just thrown almost everything in and not even had this pack tested just shows that you probably wanted to throw out a big pack just for the sake of it.

The Encore levels are here because they are also song titles, and because many of them have been backroute-fixed since Paralems / Pit Lems / Lemmicks. Usually though, post-backroute-fixed levels don't get that much attention anymore, so that's why I wanted to showcase them again in their "fixed" versions ;) .

The pack became this big because there were a lot of places I wanted to visit with levels. And even though I feared some of the pretty levels would turn out to have dull solutions, most of them actually ended up having pretty unique ones. Again, some of them may still have backroutes, you're never entirely safe from that.

Quote
Also I may be on the way out of this forum soon because apparently no one likes my easily angered temper anymore.

That's sad to hear ;) .

For me personally, I can say I don't take it personally when people rage over my levels because they can't find the solution. I can also assure you at the same time that I don't actively try to make levels harder than necessary, least of all by intentionally introducing execution difficulty - I've learned my lesson from Paralems quickly in that regard ;) . If unintended execution trouble arises, such as in Lemmicks's "Do not fear", I get rid of that as fast as I can. I try my best to be like a Dungeon Master in D&D when it comes to level design; I want to challenge the player, I don't want to beat them.



Replays for all mentioned levels are attached.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2018, 01:05:06 pm by Strato Incendus »
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Post-level jingles & Groupie rank
« Reply #17 on: September 28, 2018, 08:23:37 pm »
Just a question to you all, do the custom post-level jingles for success and failure work?

I've changed these to be real-instrument versions, too, so that they go along with the rest of the music. The victory jingle is a kind of fanfare played by the entire band; the failure jingle is a solitary guitar playing four sad chromatic single notes with a wah-wah :D .

To my knowledge, these should already be part of the pack (included in "files"). Therefore, I didn't include them again in the music download. I didn't hear them in Flopsy's or Arty's LP though, so I'm not sure if the files are missing or if Flopsy and Arty merely both have post-level jingles disabled by default ;) .


Apart from that, here is the promised spoiler for the "Who's who?" of the Groupie rank :) . I'll also put it into the starting post, so that it can be found more easily.

Note that taking a look at these before having made an educated guess at who the level is inspired by is like watching a replay before having attempted a level yourself! :P

(But no, seriously, these spoilers will obviously also include at least partial spoilers for the level solutions themselves, so you might not want to look at all of them out of sheer curiosity ;) ).

Groupie rank level list (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 07:36:19 pm by Strato Incendus »
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2018, 04:59:41 pm »
Okay, I've tried it on my brother's PC, the post level jingles worked, even though I hadn't given these files to him separately (only the music tracks for the levels).

I've uploaded a first small update of the pack (check the link in the starting post), with three backroutes found by namida in the Groupie rank fixed :) . I had to alter the intended solution on two of them, but that's fine, since in one of the two cases, the trick required by the intended solution isn't actually a signature trademark of the respective user.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I also made some cosmetic changes to Groupie 12 that do not affect the solution at all...

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #19 on: October 01, 2018, 05:41:24 pm »
Next update! Thanks to Flopsy's mass upload of LP videos today, I was able to fix a couple of backroutes in the Noisemaker rank. Most of them weren't too dramatic, but it's always better get rid of them as early as possible :) .

Also, some of the Talismans didn't have their criteria set properly, these are fixed now as well.

The link is still the one in the starting post (or my signature).

Changelog (click to show/hide)
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2018, 09:12:50 pm »
I've finished watching Flopsy's LP, so here are some summarising thoughts. I've also attached the replays of other levels Flopsy struggled with (=skipped or genuinely couldn't solve).

Again, thanks a lot for playing this far, Flopsy, and for sharing all these videos so quickly! :thumbsup: The fact that you "only" got to 3/4 of rank two can easily disguise that you still played an entire 68 levels of this thing, which is more than some other packs have in total. (I'm still stuck somewhere on rank three of SEB Lems, just F.Y.I. :evil: ...)

On Flopsy's LP (click to show/hide)

General conclusion for all players:

- If it's way too easy, and you manage to save a lot of skills, it's probably a backroute ;) .
- If it's too easy, but uses exactly all the skills, you probably already know the trick the level was supposed to teach. Good for you!
- If it's extremely fiddly and therefore annoying to pull off, while it doesn't necessarily have to be a backroute, it's certainly not the main intended solution. So in those cases, you may want to consider going back to the drawing board. ;)
« Last Edit: October 04, 2018, 09:37:03 am by Strato Incendus »
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour - UPDATE
« Reply #21 on: October 10, 2018, 04:57:31 pm »
Next major, major update! :) Can't believe it's only been 10 days, but I thought I better get this done early.

Check the link in the starting post, or get it from here.

This barely has anything to do with Arty's LP; most of what he and Flopsy did in the late Noisemaker rank was as intended, and in Flopsy's LP of the Amateur rank, there were hardly any backroutes at all.

But I've found some further backroutes myself in the later ranks - levels which will take some time until Arty gets there ;) - by actively trying to break the levels. Everything I've found in that regard has been removed now :) .

One level in particular got an emergency treatment with buttons. I think this may also be the way to finally fix the ever-broken level "Crossing the Nile" from Pit Lems.

Changelog (click to show/hide)
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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World Tour: New update!
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2018, 05:19:41 pm »
The next update (10-19-2018) brings a couple of fixes to the Amateur rank (since there weren't any in the last update), as well as a couple of new talismans! :tal-bronze::tal-silver::tal-gold:

These were made from solutions Flopsy and Arty found that were superior to mine, so thanks, you two, for finding these!

The link in the starting post works, too, as usual ;) .

Changelog (click to show/hide)
« Last Edit: October 19, 2018, 07:10:10 pm by Strato Incendus »
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #23 on: October 19, 2018, 07:09:35 pm »
I felt the change to Amateur 14 was important enough to get it done right away, so I've changed the update date from yesterday to today, only changing that single level and adding the "save everyone"-talisman.

To be fair though, this is one of the most difficult talismans in the game now, so blame Arty for finding it :P !
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2018, 12:04:10 am »
Just a general note to everyone: Don't feel rushed to "re-solve" levels where a backroute fix on my part might cause your replays not to work anymore. ;) Your savegame file still remembers the level as solved, and that is also my philosophy: Anyone who solved a level in the state it was in when they first attempted it has beaten me at some point in time - be it entirely through own skill or partly because of my own stupidity :evil: !

I simply advise people to update whenever a new version comes out and then continue playing where they left off, just in that new version. That raises the chance of the levels still following being more backroute-proof, and thereby more enjoyable! No need though to go back and constantly recheck whether everything is still working!  ;) With 40 levels per rank, that's just nuts!

I noticed only recently that a lot of my old SEB Lems replays were broken, and I resolved those levels now, but I still focus mainly on getting ahead in the pack.

I'm constantly refining Lemmings World Tour, like IchoTolot has been fixing PimoLems right after each of Nessy's streams. Given the unusually large size of the pack, I didn't want to wait until the end of an LP before I started fixing the first backroutes and thereby leave all those levels "vulnerable" in the meantime.

I also guess I'm going to see some familiar backroutes again in the second half of the Amateur rank of Arty's LP - hopefully only stuff I have fixed in the meantime already. But that is only going to underline how badly these fixes were needed! :evil: Apparently there's even going to be one episde where all five levels appearing in that video are broken, so... bring it on! :thumbsup:
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline 607

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #25 on: November 01, 2018, 07:15:39 pm »
Hello, did you copy the track so it played twice or did you play everything twice yourself? If the first case is true, why did you copy it at all, and not stick with one loop?

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #26 on: November 01, 2018, 11:17:24 pm »
Oh, I played everything a lot more often than twice, I just combined the best takes! :D

So no, it's not like you're hearing the same thing twice ;) ; on a lot of tracks, some things change in the second half. On ONML 01, I alter the guitar melody slightly, ONML 02 features a slightly different solo, the Can-Can is played higher the second time, so is Rondo Alla Turca, the second half of Smile if you love Lemmings contains the guitar solo throw-ins, and so on ;) .
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline 607

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #27 on: November 02, 2018, 10:36:41 am »
Thanks! I'm putting the music on my phone, and when I do video game music, I fade out after the first loop. But I thought here the second part might actually be different... I just couldn't tell for sure anywhere. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour - Update!
« Reply #28 on: May 11, 2019, 11:54:49 am »
At last, here's the update with Arty's backroutes up to the end of the Diva rank fixed!

Click me or the link in the starting post

I haven't received any further replays - so I guess people either stopped playing because it's Old Formats, or because Arty's LP was so entertaining to watch that they'd rather watch that instead ^^, and now they already know all the solutions.

Well, not anymore, because now most of the backroutes that Arty found shouldn't be possible anymore! :P

I think there were like 1 or 2 levels with so whacky intended solutions that I couldn't yet figure out who to enforce them, and so I just didn't bother. But the majority should be cleaned up now - even though that usually only means "time to look for a new backroute to the same level"... :evil:
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Reply #29 on: June 11, 2019, 09:01:43 am »
Here's a little update regarding the conversion of Lemmings World Tour to New Formats:

I have converted the entire pack using the pack converter and am now in the process of fixing the single levels (Noisemaker, Amateur, and Professional are done so far).

This mainly refers to inserting the proper backgrounds again, as they got lost during the conversion, despite being available in both formats (I reported this as a bug). Fortunately, I don't have to do this for every single level - in that case, I probably would have waited for a bug fix first - but only for those that don't have a monochrome background. For those levels which do, including everything that simply has a mono-black background, no changes are necessary in that regard.

The other main thing is adding ceilings in the cases where it's relevant, because the deadly ceiling in New Formats obviously destroyed some solutions.
To avoid confusion, I'm doing this in the Old-Formats levels and then re-convert those single levels by opening them up in the New Formats editor.

That way, even if you (continue to) play the Old-Formats version, you won't get confused about whether the ceiling is solid or not, because in all cases where it's relevant, there's terrain covering the ceiling now, and this will be the case in both versions.

It may affect the timing of the solutions in your Old-Formats replays, though, because I always placed the ceiling in such a way that it's visible to the player, obviously, therefore, a lemming who hit the level border before is now going to drop down 1-2 frames earlier.



Finally, there's the elephant in the room, which are the radiation- and slowfreeze levels.

The biggest challenge will be adapting those levels where zombies had to walk into radiation / slowfreeze. Those are "Only time" from the Diva rank, "Blowing in the wind" from the legend rank, and "All you zombies" from the Groupie rank. Since zombies can't collect pickup skills like they used to do as "classic zombies", nor do we have the instant-pickup-skill gimmick anymore, there's no way of having specific spots in the landscape automatically give skills to zombies. The worst case would be to cut these levels entirely. There will not be any dedicated replacement levels that would become exclusive to New Formats; LWT was created for Old Formats, and the New-Formats version is merely trying to be as accurate of a representation of this pack as possible.

For regular radiation / slowfreeze levels, in some cases, there was an easy enough fix by simply replacing radiation and/or blocker pickup skills with exploder pickup skills (e.g. Amateur 13, "Ayo Technology", and Amateur 25, "Radioactive").

In other cases, it's more difficult, because the skill panel was already full with radiation / slowfreeze in place.

For example, I can re-create the solution of Amateur 26, "Like ice in the sunshine", easily by replacing the slowfreeze with a stoner pickup skill - the only problem is: The level was a 1-of-everything level before, and there's no space (yet) on the skill panel to add a 9th skill.

This also affects Amateur 39, "Japan", which is one of my favourite levels in the pack, and was praised by Arty as one of the few radiation levels he actually enjoyed ;) .

Thus, I think it's safe to say the New Formats conversion of LWT won't be released before the NeoLemmix update enabling the level creator to have up to 10 different skills.

This is kind of the ideal redemption for the removal of radiation and slowfreeze at this point, because while the Shimmier was what gave me enough of an incentive to transition to New Formats completely as far as creation of new levels is concerned, I didn't want to include any Shimmier levels in LWT at such a late stage, because that would have meant casually introducing the skill in the middle of a rank while everything else has had proper introduction levels.

Simply having more skills however is nothing that needs a lot of additional explanation. I wonder how many players would even notice if I didn't bring it up on the level preview screen! :D


Some of the aesthetics will change as well, few of them because I want them to, but some objects (certain exits, teleporters, differently shaded terrain pieces etc.) and backgrounds that I used are simply not available anymore in New Formats (as of now, at least). Since we're not supposed to add stuff to other people's tilesets, those levels can only be given their original look again if those pieces are re-added. To be clear, this is nothing that will make me put a New-Formats release on halt, but I still hope I can restore the original look of the pack again eventually.

A huge upside of the New Formats version, though: As namida and Nepster told me during the early days of New-Formats development, the graphic-set performance has improved immensely! The worst part was converting all the graphic sets that had been missing or incomplete. But so far, I haven't experienced any crashes related to heavy graphic-set mixing yet! :thumbsup:


Nevertheless, since LWT was created for Old Formats, I'm going to continue maintaining it for both Old- and New Formats! :)

This is likely going to be the only pack for which any content creator is doing this, but for me it simply means I do any backroute fixes in the Old-Formats version first and then re-convert that single level by opening it in the New-Formats editor.
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels