Poll

Do you want to replace namida's styles by GigaLem's updated ones?

Yes, replace.
2 (50%)
Don't care at all.
0 (0%)
No, keep namida's original ones available.
2 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 4

Voting closed: July 09, 2018, 04:12:23 pm

Author Topic: [Rejected][Suggestion] Use GigaLem's updated versions of LP tilesets as standard  (Read 1482 times)

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Offline Simon

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Quote from: namida
In general, I object to "that's just slippery slope" being used as a counterargument. Too often to count, I have noticed cases where slippery slope has become reality - and arguably, NeoLemmix during the culling frenzy was one example of this. It's a perfectly valid thing to be concerned about.

The culling frenzy wasn't slippery slope; every culled game element came with an argument precisely against that element. Furthermore, the culling frenzy came with several years of guarantee for every surviving game element.

Of course game design arguments are 90 % taste, and when you transfer project ownership, clashes are natural.

If you want to defend both the namida/Giga sets alongside, you can still appeal to the outside perception with an argument very similar to slipperly slope, à la: (NL should give strong guarantees to the level designer. Even small differences are enough to upset level designers. Since level designers are humans, they have availability bias, and thus will interpret any discussed cull/merge/change as a thread to their projects that are completely unrelated to that change. We don't want to scare level designers away.)



I split off the discussion whether recolored tilesets should become standalone tilesets.

-- Simon

Offline Nepster

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I have no preference regarding the original question, but want to add one more piece of input: If someone wants to play the LP levels with GigaLem's versions of the styles, then they can copy the pieces from the folder of GigaLem's style and overwrite the original pieces in the namida_whatever style.

In general, I object to "that's just slippery slope" being used as a counterargument. Too often to count, I have noticed cases where slippery slope has become reality - and arguably, NeoLemmix during the culling frenzy was one example of this. It's a perfectly valid thing to be concerned about.
And arguably NeoLemmix was in a "adding frenzy" before that, regarding all the new skills and gadget types. So the opposite is also a perfectly valid thing to be concerned about: That the addition of recolored/remade styles does end in an adding frenzy. :P

Offline Strato Incendus

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As much as I hate the culling frenzy, I must agree with Nepster here that an adding frenzy where we might end up with several dozens of the same tileset with just minor shading differences could indeed be the consequence of this. :)

I'd suggest something slightly different: You're free to try different shadings in your own level packs - like Arty's blue fire, his rain, or snow - and if people like it, specifically these alterations could be uploaded, sort-of on demand.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels, JUST RELEASED!
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Nepster

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I'd suggest something slightly different: You're free to try different shadings in your own level packs - like Arty's blue fire, his rain, or snow - and if people like it, specifically these alterations could be uploaded, sort-of on demand.
Sorry, but no. Pack creators are heavily encouraged to either use the styles already on the homepage or send them to me for inclusion. This has several reasons:
1) Everyone knows where to get them. Including the NeoLemmix Installer and the graphics download feature (once I get to implementing it). Otherwise they might have to search on the forums or similar, which I want to avoid.
2) Once on the NeoLemmix homepage, there is one official up-to-date version of the style. Otherwise you can never be sure whether you got the current one.
3) With pack styles, other people can never be sure whether it is safe to use the style for their own levels. Well, they can know: It is never safe! But I will make any bet, that someone will just ignore this and create their own levels with this style. And what should we do then, if a changed version becomes official and uploaded to the NeoLemmix homepage?

Offline Strato Incendus

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If you add a style to your level pack, then it just becomes part of that pack, doesn't it? There's no way to extract it from that pack so that someone else could just upload it.

For example, I recoloured Arty's rain to Purple for one of my levels from Lemmings World Tour - "Purple Rain", obviously ;) (you can see a screenshot of that level in the respective thread). That will just be included in the pack (with Arty getting credited on the roller text, obviously), so you can play the level, but that doesn't automatically mean everyone can use it in their own levels.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels, JUST RELEASED!
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Nepster

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If you add a style to your level pack, then it just becomes part of that pack, doesn't it? There's no way to extract it from that pack so that someone else could just upload it.
That's no longer true for NeoLemmix V12 and newer (i.e. the "new-formats" versions): There level packs and styles are both a loose collection of text resp. png files inside a folder. So extracting a style from a pack is as easy as looking in a certain folder on your computer.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Okay, this means if I create a pack for the old format and recolour a graphic set so that it only gets used in there, that shouldn't be a problem, right?
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels, JUST RELEASED!
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Nepster

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Yeah, for the old formats this is fine. But in this thread we are discussion GigaLem's styles made for the new formats.

Online namida

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And to add to that, it's really not a great idea to be creating content for an outdated version, especially when it's now a few versions behind, one of which involved major changes. If it's a matter of "I was working on this pack for ages and it's in old formats and I'd rather finish it before porting to the new version", that's one matter, but even then you should at least be taking into account what will or won't remain viable when it does move to new formats.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Strato Incendus

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Yeah, for the old formats this is fine. But in this thread we are discussion GigaLem's styles made for the new formats.

Okay, that's great then, I thought these were some general objections ;) .

Quote
especially when it's now a few versions behind, one of which involved major changes.

Yeah, I think I still have to update to the last edition of the old formats version - I just rewatched some of nin10adict's Pit Lems LP-videos, and he and I both still had the glitch of a swimmer who swims into a teleporter continuing to swim after having arrived at the receiver.

Quote
If it's a matter of "I was working on this pack for ages and it's in old formats and I'd rather finish it before porting to the new version", that's one matter,

That is one part of it, indeed; I wanted to create Lemmings World Tour specifically for New Formats originally, because I had song-related level ideas involving jumpers and shimmiers. However, those don't exist yet in NeoLemmix, and I came up with yet more radiation and slowfreeze stuff. Plus, I created the instruments graphic set, which is not 100% final yet (most terrain pieces are ridiculously oversize anyway and will therefore probably not meet your standards ;) ) . So I don't want to convert that graphic set to New Formats before everything about the tileset is set in stone.

Quote
And to add to that, it's really not a great idea to be creating content for an outdated version,

As the creator of Lemmicks, you know I have to wholeheartedly disagree here :D ! Packs for outdated versions may attract less attention - though we can't really tell that for certain anymore, since all the older packs have been hidden away in a subforum, so they're harder to find in the first place and therefore not really "fighting" on the same ground as those packs which have already been updated.

Anyways, it may lead to fewer players playing it, but that's their loss, really :) . Just like I'm missing out on a lot of good Lix stuff involving the Lix-only skills (runner, jumper, batter, cuber, knockback bomber etc.).
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels, JUST RELEASED!
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Nepster

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As there is no clear consensus and namida is fine either way, I added a poll to get a better picture about the general feeling on this issue. It will run for one week (i.e. until the 9th of July). So please vote as much as you can!

Offline Nepster

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Given the 50-50 split on the vote, which reflects the posts made pretty well, I will not replace namida's styles. For those who prefer to have GigaLem's updates even for levels that use namida's original styles, here is a workaround:
1) Delete the folder with namida's original style, but remember its name
2) Copy the folder with GigaLem's style
3) Rename the copied folder to the name, that namida's folder originally had, e.g. to namida_purple

Offline Flopsy

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Another method I used in case you want to use GigaLem's versions for specific levels and not for others.
This method also works if you'd rather keep both versions of the tilesets and just want to convert all levels to the newer GigaLem versions.

- open the level file you want to convert and use the Replace (Edit>Replace) function to replace all instances of namida's tileset name with the name of GigaLem's version of the tileset because the names of the terrain and objects are the same in both tilesets I believe.
Don't tell me solutions to levels which I have not solved.

Lemmings: Gotta Go Fast - My NEW (in development) Sonic tileset dedicated level pack :)
SEB Lems - My first level pack (175 levels)
Flopsy's Youtube Channel - Watch Lemmings videos/streams with live commentary
Flopsy's Sonic Graphic Sets - Download Neo Lemmix compatible Sonic tilesets.

Offline Dullstar

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Since it is easy to update levels to use the new sets, I think that if this change is desired by level designers, the situation will resolve itself without the need any action.

Another method I used in case you want to use GigaLem's versions for specific levels and not for others.
This method also works if you'd rather keep both versions of the tilesets and just want to convert all levels to the newer GigaLem versions.

- open the level file you want to convert and use the Replace (Edit>Replace) function to replace all instances of namida's tileset name with the name of GigaLem's version of the tileset because the names of the terrain and objects are the same in both tilesets I believe.

Notepad++ can do this in bulk if so desired. The option is under Search->Find in Files. Select the directory where the levels to be updated are located (there is an option to include files in sub-folders if applicable), then perform the find and replace function as described by Flopsy. This way, you can update all of your levels at once.

This is more useful if you're updating levels you made, rather than changing the sets clientside. If you're just changing the set clientside, then Nepster's method is more sensible, since it will affect any level you might download.