Lemmings Forums
NeoLemmix => Bugs & Suggestions => Closed => Topic started by: IchoTolot on May 06, 2018, 05:17:05 PM
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For reference, I am tallking about GigaLem's redesigned versions here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3443.0
As far as I can see they are using the exact physics of namida's original versions, but that needs to be rechecked.
From the visual aspect they just seem like a clear update -no offense to namida here ;)-
That's why I want to ask around if we should use them as the standard version overall. They look superior from my point of view and maybe only some visuals of existing levels need to be rechecked if the physics turn out to be the same if we switch to them as the standard.
A merge would also reduce the huge tileset number by a bit when all/most LP styles have been remade by GigaLem.
The only thing I clearly see that stands against this merge: If we plan to replace namida's styles, then people should not make levels using the current GigaLem's styles, because such levels will break then due to the different file paths to the pieces. Maybe there is even a way to link levels using these to use the other filepath - therefore prevent breaking in the first place?
All levels made with the original LP styles will automatically using the new styles though.
So what's the general opinion here? I still would say let's take the updated visuals, as I think they overall look superior and spare us from having 2 versions of the same set.
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From the visual aspect they just seem like a clear update -no offense to namida here
None taken. There were severe limitations on NeoLemmix's color depth when these sets were designed - LPII's sets were designed when it only supported 16 colors in a graphic set (including "transparent"), and LPIII's 32 (which LPII's were later remastered to). I did at one point intend to remaster them to full 24-bit color myself, but never really got around to it. On the other hand, I might be a bit more bothered if someone tried to do the same with the LPIV, LPV or Horror sets.
The one thing I would insist on here - all or nothing. For consistency within the packs that use these sets, I would like to either see all 9 of them replaced with remastered versions, or all 9 kept in their original form. (EDIT: And a second thing I can think of - I haven't seen the remastered sets in that much detail, but in general, I consider it very important that the backgrounds are clearly distinguishable from the terrain - I generally do this by making the background very dark, to the point it's almost not there - but I have noticed GigaLem has a huge habit of very much not doing this. He can do what he likes with his own sets, but I'd like that rule to be followed if my sets are being remastered.)
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There were severe limitations on NeoLemmix's color depth when these sets were designed - LPII's sets were designed when it only supported 16 colors in a graphic set (including "transparent"), and LPIII's 32 (which LPII's were later remastered to). I did at one point intend to remaster them to full 24-bit color myself, but never really got around to it. On the other hand, I might be a bit more bothered if someone tried to do the same with the LPIV, LPV or Horror sets.
I did not know about the initial restrictions you had back then. But yes, that would be a factor for the old ones to be "remastered". I think the later tilesets look a lot better in comparison to LPII for example. Metal and Honeycomb being my favorites.
The one thing I would insist on here - all or nothing. For consistency within the packs that use these sets, I would like to either see all 9 of them replaced with remastered versions, or all 9 kept in their original form. (EDIT: And a second thing I can think of - I haven't seen the remastered sets in that much detail, but in general, I consider it very important that the backgrounds are clearly distinguishable from the terrain - I generally do this by making the background very dark, to the point it's almost not there - but I have noticed GigaLem has a huge habit of very much not doing this. He can do what he likes with his own sets, but I'd like that rule to be followed if my sets are being remastered.)
I agree with all or nothing way for consistency and for the background thing I agree as well. If they are going to be officially remastered, the backgrounds should be on point. If this is going to happen, Giga and you should exchange your opinions and speak through on what's acceptable and what's not -- making changes in the process.
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I support this suggestion, but I think Giga's sets need a bit more retouching before it can be done. As well as the background issue, the Metal steel and Desert steel could do with rethinking -- the former is rather ugly and the latter is much too similar to normal terrain.
(There may be other pieces that could do with retouching; those are just the ones that stand out after looking through Giga's topic.)
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the bgs I have tend to look ugly when darkened. I know if we could have them be way darker if need be but I don't to just use a generic tiled bg or stock black honestly. Like I'm all for darkening, but I don't want to remove the bgs completely.
Edit:I do want to have Metal touched up quite a bit, I feel that set could look better compared to everything else. and I can understand the steel in desert...I had no other ideas to be frank
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I'm going to throw it in there that I am against this change.
I feel like overwriting the old LPII tilesets is a no-no from a traditionalist's point of view. Maybe I'm just too attached to the sets and I feel like this is going too far with trying to reduce the amount of resources used in the New Format NeoLemmix style's download.
I feel like the tilesets should co-exist and people should be allowed to choose which ones they use, some people are going to prefer the old Psychedelic, Metal, Desert or Tree tilesets.
I also think of the new players when making this point, it seems that their go-to pack when starting to delve into custom packs is LPI which is fine but what happens when they move onto LPII and the tilesets are GigaLem's redesigns, it's going to seem a bit overwhelming for them I feel.
I'm sorry to be a party pooper but I feel this is not right (despite namida being ok with it), I mean I turned namida's Rickroll VGA into a tileset but I kept it just as it was and didn't change a thing because I assumed changing one's work was a no-no on here.
Could it be that sometime in the future, the Sonic tilesets I made will get HD makeovers and then people will prefer those over the originals I created, it just feels like those who cannot make tilesets up to the standards GigaLem makes them are going to get written out effectively :(
While we're on the subject, what happened to namida's HD versions of the original styles which were completed, it feels like they were left behind when we moved to the new format (except for the backgrounds).
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While I do agree that GigaLems remastered versions look better in general, we proposed to him to name them differently for a reason - so that both could be kept.
"Purple" is a funny keyword here: There is an editor for custom Magic: The Gathering cards out there that also features the previously nonexistent colour purple; the card frame for that colour was changed a couple of years ago, and that change was pretty much forced upon all users. I still happen to have the old frame, and every time an update comes out, I put these old ones back in :D .
The more reduced look of namida's tilesets is what makes them special, so I use both interchangeably.
I mean, after all, we have multiple versions of the standard graphic sets, like dirt, fire etc., precisely for that reason! ;)
And then there's the conflicting opinions on the backgrounds - namida coming from a game-mechanical, GigaLem from an artistic perspective.
This change to me would be reminiscent of previous foul compromises that on the surface may seem like they make everybody happy, but in the end just mean fewer options for everyone.
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This change to me would be reminiscent of previous foul compromises that on the surface may seem like they make everybody happy, but in the end just mean fewer options for everyone.
As someone who was quite against much of the culling, I disagree here. Other changes that have met that reaction, are usually culling or significant changing of gameplay features. Whereas this one would be purely a cosmetic change - if one really wanted the original versions, they could simply replace the remastered one with a copy of the original.
I don't like the idea of treating identical (physics-wise) tileset as two seperate tilesets though - I thought the decision to include Genesis Dirt as a seperate tileset, for example, was ridiculous. Until / unless NeoLemmix gets a feature to have multiple "skins" for a graphic set (perhaps as a user choice; alternatively it could be a level designer choice but implementing them as skins allows to fall back to the default version if the alternate one isn't present) I do think only one version of each set should be included. But I have no problem with the default for the LPII / LPIII styles being GigaLem's versions, as long as - as mentioned before - it's all or nothing.
Regarding the backgrounds, I do get that faint, dark backgrounds aren't as visually appealing, but a background that can be confused with terrain is very distracting - to the point where (and it is rare for me to say this) I don't think even clear physics mode is sufficient for dealing with it - yes, it will point it out, but it's to the point where you'd either have to keep CPM on the entire time you play the level (defeating the purpose of an artistic appearance in the first place), or constantly refer to it every few seconds (which would get extremely annoying). Or just disable backgrounds, but then we're back to no real point in having them. Backgrounds in NeoLemmix are very much a case of "with great power comes great responsibility", and we have already seen several very useful (artistic-wise) features get culled simply due to their abuse potential, despite most use cases in practice being pretty fair - let's not do anything that'll send backgrounds down the same path.
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I'll probably dim the backgrounds in a little bit, as for other side of the argument If we had my redesigns as defaults, then I ask for the older versions to receive a touch up before being replaced and we refer to those versions to be called "Original" or something like that.
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I oppose this change.
When I make a level with tiles, I want to make sure it looks good with the tiles I have available, and take care to do my best to see that no pieces stick out awkwardly; such that large chunks of terrain made of several tiles mesh well and look like one large piece. Changing how the tiles look can alter this balance. While none of my levels use these tilesets, changing these sets sets a precedent that other sets can also be replaced with HD versions, such as the original game's sets with the ugly WinLemm versions (why is the dirt tileset so shiny looking?!).
This outright replacement of the originals would therefore set a dangerous precedent.
I do like namida's skin idea. Level designers could set a default one for their levels, while a user could force a preferred skin if they wanted. Any missing pieces can be grabbed from the base tileset.
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If there are multiple people against the merge, then I would simply say keep them separated.
I would maybe advertise Giga's re-skins as alternative versions a bit more, so users are aware that 2 versions exist and they are able to decide which version to use.
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If there are multiple people against the merge, then I would simply say keep them separated.
I would maybe advertise Giga's re-skins as alternative versions a bit more, so users are aware that 2 versions exist and they are able to decide which version to use.
To be fair, I can't blame them. so this is all fair, if people want the original let them go for that if people want the remakes, they'll go for those, All in all, its just preference at this point.
I still wish Namida would give the LPII and LPIII sets a touch up so they can match the LPIV and LPV sets
either, the only thing I could say is to close the topic.
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I do think there is good reason to promote the updated versions. I'm mostly concerned about the precedent that any replacement would set, rather than against this specific replacement. Personally, if I had any levels that used the originals (I don't recall ever making any content with those particular sets), I would update them to use the new ones.
If auto-downloading of sets is ever re-implemented, and the decision is made to go with a system where only some tilesets are included with the initial styles download, with the rest being downloaded on an as-needed/wanted basis, then I could support a measure to only include the new ones initially, fetching the old ones only when they are required by a level or requested by a user. But they should remain distinct tilesets for the time being, to be reconsidered if official support for re-skin tilesets is ever implemented.
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I would merge for simplicity and better looks, accepting slight mismatches that are purely visual.
But I ignore any backgrounds. I want a single color that is distinct from any terrain (thus should be black in 95 % of tilesets). I see that enough people care about backgrounds and that there is a problem that I don't experience.
Could it be that sometime in the future, the Sonic tilesets I made will get HD makeovers and then people will prefer those over the originals I created, it just feels like those who cannot make tilesets up to the standards GigaLem makes them are going to get written out effectively :(
Let's assume that your scenario becomes true, and other people improve your tilesets. The reaction should be the complete opposite of ":(":
1. Your sets got used, thus you already have enriched culture.
2. People care about your sets so much that they improve on any few remaining bugs. Not every set gets such honor.
3. Pepole strive to be 100 % physics compatible with your work. Wow!
You are not written out when people improve on your work. You opened the door for others to join. Be emotionally tied to your work, not to the results of your work.
I want to make sure it looks good with the tiles I have available, and take care to do my best to see that no pieces stick out awkwardly; such that large chunks of terrain made of several tiles mesh well and look like one large piece. Changing how the tiles look can alter this balance.
Yes, this is the most important argument against the merge.
I'm mostly concerned about the precedent that any replacement would set, rather than against this specific replacement.
This is slippery slope and should not count as a counterargument.
official support for re-skin tilesets is ever implemented.
Nobody will bother about re-skinning levels on the client side. The exception is disabling backgrounds because backgrounds distract. Stuff should be as good as possible out of the box.
In this light, I like how you will adapt your own levels to Giga's sets.
-- Simon
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I'm mostly concerned about the precedent that any replacement would set, rather than against this specific replacement.
This is slippery slope and should not count as a counterargument.
In general, I object to "that's just slippery slope" being used as a counterargument. Too often to count, I have noticed cases where slippery slope has become reality - and arguably, NeoLemmix during the culling frenzy was one example of this. It's a perfectly valid thing to be concerned about.
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In general, I object to "that's just slippery slope" being used as a counterargument. Too often to count, I have noticed cases where slippery slope has become reality - and arguably, NeoLemmix during the culling frenzy was one example of this. It's a perfectly valid thing to be concerned about.
The culling frenzy wasn't slippery slope; every culled game element came with an argument precisely against that element. Furthermore, the culling frenzy came with several years of guarantee for every surviving game element.
Of course game design arguments are 90 % taste, and when you transfer project ownership, clashes are natural.
If you want to defend both the namida/Giga sets alongside, you can still appeal to the outside perception with an argument very similar to slipperly slope, à la: (NL should give strong guarantees to the level designer. Even small differences are enough to upset level designers. Since level designers are humans, they have availability bias, and thus will interpret any discussed cull/merge/change as a thread to their projects that are completely unrelated to that change. We don't want to scare level designers away.)
I split off the discussion whether recolored tilesets should become standalone tilesets (https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3851.0).
-- Simon
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I have no preference regarding the original question, but want to add one more piece of input: If someone wants to play the LP levels with GigaLem's versions of the styles, then they can copy the pieces from the folder of GigaLem's style and overwrite the original pieces in the namida_whatever style.
In general, I object to "that's just slippery slope" being used as a counterargument. Too often to count, I have noticed cases where slippery slope has become reality - and arguably, NeoLemmix during the culling frenzy was one example of this. It's a perfectly valid thing to be concerned about.
And arguably NeoLemmix was in a "adding frenzy" before that, regarding all the new skills and gadget types. So the opposite is also a perfectly valid thing to be concerned about: That the addition of recolored/remade styles does end in an adding frenzy. :P
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As much as I hate the culling frenzy, I must agree with Nepster here that an adding frenzy where we might end up with several dozens of the same tileset with just minor shading differences could indeed be the consequence of this. :)
I'd suggest something slightly different: You're free to try different shadings in your own level packs - like Arty's blue fire, his rain, or snow - and if people like it, specifically these alterations could be uploaded, sort-of on demand.
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I'd suggest something slightly different: You're free to try different shadings in your own level packs - like Arty's blue fire, his rain, or snow - and if people like it, specifically these alterations could be uploaded, sort-of on demand.
Sorry, but no. Pack creators are heavily encouraged to either use the styles already on the homepage or send them to me for inclusion. This has several reasons:
1) Everyone knows where to get them. Including the NeoLemmix Installer and the graphics download feature (once I get to implementing it). Otherwise they might have to search on the forums or similar, which I want to avoid.
2) Once on the NeoLemmix homepage, there is one official up-to-date version of the style. Otherwise you can never be sure whether you got the current one.
3) With pack styles, other people can never be sure whether it is safe to use the style for their own levels. Well, they can know: It is never safe! But I will make any bet, that someone will just ignore this and create their own levels with this style. And what should we do then, if a changed version becomes official and uploaded to the NeoLemmix homepage?
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If you add a style to your level pack, then it just becomes part of that pack, doesn't it? There's no way to extract it from that pack so that someone else could just upload it.
For example, I recoloured Arty's rain to Purple for one of my levels from Lemmings World Tour - "Purple Rain", obviously ;) (you can see a screenshot of that level in the respective thread). That will just be included in the pack (with Arty getting credited on the roller text, obviously), so you can play the level, but that doesn't automatically mean everyone can use it in their own levels.
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If you add a style to your level pack, then it just becomes part of that pack, doesn't it? There's no way to extract it from that pack so that someone else could just upload it.
That's no longer true for NeoLemmix V12 and newer (i.e. the "new-formats" versions): There level packs and styles are both a loose collection of text resp. png files inside a folder. So extracting a style from a pack is as easy as looking in a certain folder on your computer.
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Okay, this means if I create a pack for the old format and recolour a graphic set so that it only gets used in there, that shouldn't be a problem, right?
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Yeah, for the old formats this is fine. But in this thread we are discussion GigaLem's styles made for the new formats.
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And to add to that, it's really not a great idea to be creating content for an outdated version, especially when it's now a few versions behind, one of which involved major changes. If it's a matter of "I was working on this pack for ages and it's in old formats and I'd rather finish it before porting to the new version", that's one matter, but even then you should at least be taking into account what will or won't remain viable when it does move to new formats.
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Yeah, for the old formats this is fine. But in this thread we are discussion GigaLem's styles made for the new formats.
Okay, that's great then, I thought these were some general objections ;) .
especially when it's now a few versions behind, one of which involved major changes.
Yeah, I think I still have to update to the last edition of the old formats version - I just rewatched some of nin10adict's Pit Lems LP-videos, and he and I both still had the glitch of a swimmer who swims into a teleporter continuing to swim after having arrived at the receiver.
If it's a matter of "I was working on this pack for ages and it's in old formats and I'd rather finish it before porting to the new version", that's one matter,
That is one part of it, indeed; I wanted to create Lemmings World Tour specifically for New Formats originally, because I had song-related level ideas involving jumpers and shimmiers. However, those don't exist yet in NeoLemmix, and I came up with yet more radiation and slowfreeze stuff. Plus, I created the instruments graphic set, which is not 100% final yet (most terrain pieces are ridiculously oversize anyway and will therefore probably not meet your standards ;) ) . So I don't want to convert that graphic set to New Formats before everything about the tileset is set in stone.
And to add to that, it's really not a great idea to be creating content for an outdated version,
As the creator of Lemmicks, you know I have to wholeheartedly disagree here :D ! Packs for outdated versions may attract less attention - though we can't really tell that for certain anymore, since all the older packs have been hidden away in a subforum, so they're harder to find in the first place and therefore not really "fighting" on the same ground as those packs which have already been updated.
Anyways, it may lead to fewer players playing it, but that's their loss, really :) . Just like I'm missing out on a lot of good Lix stuff involving the Lix-only skills (runner, jumper, batter, cuber, knockback bomber etc.).
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As there is no clear consensus and namida is fine either way, I added a poll to get a better picture about the general feeling on this issue. It will run for one week (i.e. until the 9th of July). So please vote as much as you can!
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Given the 50-50 split on the vote, which reflects the posts made pretty well, I will not replace namida's styles. For those who prefer to have GigaLem's updates even for levels that use namida's original styles, here is a workaround:
1) Delete the folder with namida's original style, but remember its name
2) Copy the folder with GigaLem's style
3) Rename the copied folder to the name, that namida's folder originally had, e.g. to namida_purple
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Another method I used in case you want to use GigaLem's versions for specific levels and not for others.
This method also works if you'd rather keep both versions of the tilesets and just want to convert all levels to the newer GigaLem versions.
- open the level file you want to convert and use the Replace (Edit>Replace) function to replace all instances of namida's tileset name with the name of GigaLem's version of the tileset because the names of the terrain and objects are the same in both tilesets I believe.
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Since it is easy to update levels to use the new sets, I think that if this change is desired by level designers, the situation will resolve itself without the need any action.
Another method I used in case you want to use GigaLem's versions for specific levels and not for others.
This method also works if you'd rather keep both versions of the tilesets and just want to convert all levels to the newer GigaLem versions.
- open the level file you want to convert and use the Replace (Edit>Replace) function to replace all instances of namida's tileset name with the name of GigaLem's version of the tileset because the names of the terrain and objects are the same in both tilesets I believe.
Notepad++ can do this in bulk if so desired. The option is under Search->Find in Files. Select the directory where the levels to be updated are located (there is an option to include files in sub-folders if applicable), then perform the find and replace function as described by Flopsy. This way, you can update all of your levels at once.
This is more useful if you're updating levels you made, rather than changing the sets clientside. If you're just changing the set clientside, then Nepster's method is more sensible, since it will affect any level you might download.