Author Topic: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks  (Read 11889 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 3635
    • View Profile
[Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« on: September 28, 2017, 12:19:22 PM »
While meeting up with Simon yesterday, we had a short discussion about the shimmier and I've came up with some easy to understand mechanics/rules for it, that I find are share worthy and maybe lead to an interesting discussion.

The starting/ceiling catching part, as it was discussed earlier, was pretty clear: A jump that goes straight up for a few pixels and catches up to a ceiling if it hits one. Otherwise it could also be used as a delaying skill. The only thing left here is the jump height. Maybe 1 or 2 times stacker/basher etc height or something in that region would be reasonable.

The main discussion I want to start here are the ceiling checks! 

My simple and intuitive rule I popose for the top check:  The Shimmier can go forward if the ceiling height changes <= 1 pixels going forward.

This would lead to the Shimmier being able to go up/down to 45 degree slopes. This feels a bit steep, but still reasonable. Also it's very easy to understand even for new players: If they see a 2 pixel high step on the ceiling -- this means a stop.
Allowing only a not so steep slope would need something like a counter that counts the up/down height changes: Only X steps up/down allowed in the last X moves. This is not as intuitive and can also lead to weird cloner interactions where a cloner could be able to cheat itself further forward if the counter goes on incorrectly.

The most reasonable proposal for a milder slope would maybe be miner tunnel  ---> only 1 pixel ceiling height difference allowed every 2 pixels.

As I said I would prefer the steeper variation as it may seem a bit more extreme, but easier to understand.
It also allows the Shimmier to do more things and therefore being easier to implement into a solution, leading to more usage.

There would still be the question of the bottom check: Through how narrow tunnels can the shimmier go on?

1 pixel, as it is the case with walkers, floaters and climbers (even though it would be somewhat consistent) wouldn't be a great choice here I feel. It would seem weird seing the Shimmier go throw a 1 pixel high tunnel.
What what height to choose otherwise?
Maybe 5 pixels high as a minimum as a bashers that want to go on? I don't know, but this seems like a somewhat reasonable line to draw. We need more ideas and opinions here.

So let's here more about this topic: Do you agree with me? If not why not and do you have a better proposal? Let's hear it! :)

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2017, 04:02:19 PM »
The starting/ceiling catching part, as it was discussed earlier, was pretty clear: A jump that goes straight up for a few pixels and catches up to a ceiling if it hits one. Otherwise it could also be used as a delaying skill. The only thing left here is the jump height. Maybe 1 or 2 times stacker/basher etc height or something in that region would be reasonable.
I definitely want to catch a ceiling that is 16 pixels above the ground and have a few pixels spare to make it obvious that whit will work. So the total height to cover will most likely be around 18-20 pixels.
With a lemming height of 9 pixels, this means jumping 9-11 pixels above the ground. Perhaps slighly less if we count the arms reaching upwards.

My simple and intuitive rule I popose for the top check:  The Shimmier can go forward if the ceiling height changes <= 1 pixels going forward.
This might work, though I worry slightly about the graphics, when they have to work both for 45° upwards and 45° downwards slope.

Allowing only a not so steep slope would need something like a counter that counts the up/down height changes: Only X steps up/down allowed in the last X moves. This is not as intuitive and can also lead to weird cloner interactions where a cloner could be able to cheat itself further forward if the counter goes on incorrectly.
Cloners will not be a problem, if I don't make a mess with the implementation.

The most reasonable proposal for a milder slope would maybe be miner tunnel  ---> only 1 pixel ceiling height difference allowed every 2 pixels.
We will have to relax this a little bit to allow shimmying along the top of miner slopes.

There would still be the question of the bottom check: Through how narrow tunnels can the shimmier go on?

1 pixel, as it is the case with walkers, floaters and climbers (even though it would be somewhat consistent) wouldn't be a great choice here I feel. It would seem weird seing the Shimmier go throw a 1 pixel high tunnel.
What what height to choose otherwise?
Maybe 5 pixels high as a minimum as a bashers that want to go on? I don't know, but this seems like a somewhat reasonable line to draw. We need more ideas and opinions here.
I want the shimmier to stop if his feet touch ground. As Raymanni's test sprite is 7 pixels high and looks pretty neat, I don't think 5 pixels space should be enough. My current idea is:
- If >7 pixels air: Continue shimmying.
- If 5-7 pixels air: Transition to walker on the terrain.
- If 4-1 pixels air: Transition to a hoister (i.e. the final animation of a climber). I don't know whether this will look good, but jumping 6 pixels higher with the whole body within one frame will certainly not look good.
And of course transition to faller if one hits terrain.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2017, 04:08:23 PM »
Quote
- If >7 pixels air: Continue shimmying.
- If 5-7 pixels air: Transition to walker on the terrain.
- If 4-1 pixels air: Transition to a hoister (i.e. the final animation of a climber). I don't know whether this will look good, but jumping 6 pixels higher with the whole

How would you tiebreak when you reach this comb-like terrain?

###################
..|./..............
..O/.......########
..|..==>...........
..|........########
./.\...............
...........########

-- Simon

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2017, 04:16:32 PM »
I would search for the lowest pixel (within the 7 pixels of the lemming sprite) that satisfies the following condition: The pixel itself is solid, but the pixel above is air.

Another edge case is the following:

............#####
############.....
..|./.......#####
..O/.............
..|..==>.........
..|..............
./.\.............
.................

In that situation I propose to continue shimmying along the lower part of the ceiling.

Nice ASCI-Art, btw. :)

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2017, 04:27:14 PM »
I agree with the comb proposal. That leaves you with 4 cases: Continue shimmying, hit solid wall, walk onto ledge, hoist onto ledge. This is a lot of possible outcomes, but when we know that he scans from the bottom upwards, it should be reasonably easy to guess the behavior.

I also agree with preferring the lower path when checkerboarding. This doesn't seem consistent with the walker's checkerboarding, who sticks inside his surface and ignores bumps when there are gaps. But I consider the walker's checkerboarding problematic in the first place, it may well be good to decide this freely for the shimmier, ignoring the walker.

-- Simon

Offline IchoTolot

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 3635
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2017, 04:33:18 PM »
I want the shimmier to stop if his feet touch ground. As Raymanni's test sprite is 7 pixels high and looks pretty neat, I don't think 5 pixels space should be enough. My current idea is:
- If >7 pixels air: Continue shimmying.
- If 5-7 pixels air: Transition to walker on the terrain.
- If 4-1 pixels air: Transition to a hoister (i.e. the final animation of a climber). I don't know whether this will look good, but jumping 6 pixels higher with the whole body within one frame will certainly not look good.
And of course transition to faller if one hits terrain.

This seems like a good reasonable rule. :)

I would search for the lowest pixel (within the 7 pixels of the lemming sprite) that satisfies the following condition: The pixel itself is solid, but the pixel above is air.

Another edge case is the following:

............#####
############.....
..|./.......#####
..O/.............
..|..==>.........
..|..............
./.\.............
.................

In that situation I propose to continue shimmying along the lower part of the ceiling.

Nice ASCI-Art, btw. :)

I also agree with both corner cases: The lowest pixel to stand on counts and continue going along the lowest ceiling.


I still like the easy 45 degree up/downwards rule, but I have no idea about the resulting animation though. ;P
16-20 pixels upwards reach seems also great...I already see cases where this jump can be used to get onto a currently build platform 8-)

Offline nin10doadict

  • Posts: 331
  • Guy who constantly misses the obvious
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2017, 05:07:44 PM »
I also agree with the 'comb' case. Ending up walking on the lowest ledge seems to be the thing that makes the most sense there.
I'm guessing there's gonna have to be some messing around with stuff to figure out what looks and feels good. After all, it's not that often that a person codes everything just right on their first try anyway. ;)

Offline Colorful Arty

  • Posts: 814
  • You are so loved!
    • View Profile
    • Colorful Arty's Youtube Page
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2017, 05:27:35 PM »
I propose that the shimmier should jump straight up until it reaches the ceiling, or dies by jumping off the top of the screen.
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline Kingshadow3

  • Posts: 91
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2017, 07:56:17 PM »
I propose that the shimmier should jump straight up until it reaches the ceiling, or dies by jumping off the top of the screen.

No. That would be far too overpowered.
Also, Neolemmix's ceiling boundary is actually solid. I personally believe lemmings should not be allowed to shimmy on the top boundary.

I also like to ask about if there will be shimmier to climber transitions or not.

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2017, 08:24:32 PM »
I propose that the shimmier should jump straight up until it reaches the ceiling, or dies by jumping off the top of the screen.
Yeah, the solid ceiling is somewhat of a problem. It currently behaves exactly like steel, so it would make sense to be able to shimmy along the top border, as weird as this would look.
The main problem with disallowing shimmying on the top border is: How should a lemming react who is currently jumping upwards to reach a ceiling, but hits instead to top level border?

I also like to ask about if there will be shimmier to climber transitions or not.
Climber -> Shimmier: Yes.
Shimmier -> Climber: No.
Can you describe a situation where you would expect a shimmier to change into a climber?

Offline Kingshadow3

  • Posts: 91
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2017, 08:56:45 PM »
Can you describe a situation where you would expect a shimmier to change into a climber?

Something like this...

If the shimmier is also a climber, it turns around and climbs up a wall if the wall is climbable.

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2761
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2017, 11:59:30 PM »
I propose that the shimmier should jump straight up until it reaches the ceiling, or dies by jumping off the top of the screen.
Yeah, the solid ceiling is somewhat of a problem. It currently behaves exactly like steel, so it would make sense to be able to shimmy along the top border, as weird as this would look.
The main problem with disallowing shimmying on the top border is: How should a lemming react who is currently jumping upwards to reach a ceiling, but hits instead to top level border?

I also like to ask about if there will be shimmier to climber transitions or not.
Climber -> Shimmier: Yes.
Shimmier -> Climber: No.
Can you describe a situation where you would expect a shimmier to change into a climber?

this is why the ceiling should be death; as in Lix :P :lix-evil:

I will add more feedback later. Also I hope Arty is joking.
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain


Offline Colorful Arty

  • Posts: 814
  • You are so loved!
    • View Profile
    • Colorful Arty's Youtube Page
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #12 on: September 29, 2017, 04:06:14 AM »
I was joking, but if that was the way it was implemented, I'd be cool with it.

In all seriousness, I think the shimmier should immediately stop walking when assigned the skill and jump straight up around 8-16 pixels (not a random amount, just a constant value in that range). After he jumps, one of three things can happen:

1) He touches a ceiling, in which case he starts climbing across the ceiling. Much like moving on the floor, if a ceiling shimmier hits a part of the ceiling that dips up or down more than 6 pixels, he will stop shimmying and fall down.

2) He hits the top level border, in which case we need to decide if he A: dies, B: immediately falls down, or C: keeps moving up off screen until he reaches the peak of his jump and then falls down. (I have no preference, but if the top border is not deadly normally, it should not be deadly in this case.

3) Neither of the above happens, and the shimmier falls down after reaching his peak.

I'm not sure how shimmier + climber should work, but I like Kingshadow's idea.

And yes, I did just assume that Lemming's gender. ;)
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #13 on: September 29, 2017, 06:34:32 AM »
Although I haven't tested it myself, I believe L2's shimmier will not continue through any comb-like terrain, I think it requires the entire vertical space spanning the height of the lemming (plus maybe one or two pixel further bottom, up to whatever the narrowest shimmiable tunnel height is) to all be cleared of terrain.

I seem to recall L2's shimmier simply stops right before moving into a position that would be too narrow or obstructed.  Then it will hang on the ceiling at the same position for a few seconds and then finally transition to a faller.  (It is unclear whether during the wait, it could continue shimmying again if the tunnel is widen or the obstructing terrain removed; will need to test out.)  That said, I'm not opposed to the current suggestion where it stops at (rather than before) the position that is too narrow/obstructed and then does a potential transition to walker or hoister instead.

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1418
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #14 on: September 29, 2017, 07:18:37 AM »
Relative to what Arty and Ccexplore said

A shimmier would only jump upon assignment near a ceiling, if not near a ceiling then it'll just be given the skill like normal.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 3635
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #15 on: September 29, 2017, 09:12:33 AM »
The ceiling acts like a steel wall in all other cases. Builders hit their head, Lemmings turn if they run against it. So it would only be logical if the shimmier grabs onto it. Not doing so would be a weird special rule.

Climber->Shimmier:
I am actually curios how this is going to be implemented. In 2 the climber hangs a while facing the opposite direction, allowing for a shimmier assign. Here, as a climber immidiately falls opon reaching the ceiling, he would need to jump while still hanging at the wall + do a turn-around. This sounds very weird to me to be honest and I am not really sure if this is going to play out good.

Shimmier->Climber:
I agree that this shouldn't be possible, even with the situation explained where this would be viable. I think this would make the skill even too mighty.

Offline Kingshadow3

  • Posts: 91
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #16 on: September 29, 2017, 01:08:20 PM »
Another thing I'd like to ask is which of these will happen if a shimmier is assigned a walker:

1. The lemming stops being a shimmier and falls down from where he currently is.
2. The shimmier turns around.
3. You are unable to assign that lemming as a walker.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 3635
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2017, 01:10:44 PM »
The ceiling acts like a steel wall in all other cases. Builders hit their head, Lemmings turn if they run against it. So it would only be logical if the shimmier grabs onto it. Not doing so would be a weird special rule.

Well, I think it is time we reconsidered the deadly ceiling. Nepster decided to cull radiation and slowfreeze in spite of damage to existing content, because it resulted in a simpler and more consistent game.

This was discussed on multiplay occasions in the past with the final result ending here: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2537.0
Even with a high majority in favor of this.

There is some point where things should be considered final and the point for that was long ago. Otherwise creating content will become a nightmare as nothing can be be called certain and reliable anymore.

Radiation and slowfreeze was never discussed before on the other hand if somebody wants to make a connection.

Here as I said we had multiple occasions + I already analysed that a ceiling change would be fatal for nearly all content (and 1,5 years have passed by now so it's even waaay worse now), as even levels that don't rely on it actively have a high chance to rely on it passivly: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2537.msg56082#msg56082

I rather ditch the shimmier as a whole before starting the discussion on this AGAIN. Digging up old topic is highly counterproductive. Please let this rest in peace!

Simply let the shimmier garp onto the ceiling.

Another thing I'd like to ask is which of these will happen if a shimmier is assigned a walker:

1. The lemming stops being a shimmier and falls down from where he currently is.
2. The shimmier turns around.
3. You are unable to assign that lemming as a walker.

As walkers can't be assigned to climbers/floaters/gliders they shouldn't be assignable to shimmiers I think.


Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2017, 01:26:16 PM »
Assign walker to shimmier: What will happen when you assign walker to swimmer? Probably copy this behavior.

Top of map: Probably too late to redesign. Maybe continue to treat the top like steel. Can make the border more visible wherever terrain touches it. (But I admit: A part of me wants to see another raging, fiery debate about the top of map, for no good. :evil:)

-- Simon

Offline kieranmillar

  • Posts: 288
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2017, 05:31:32 PM »
Something fun to consider, what if anti-gravity is ever implemented? Would lemmings walk on the level top? Would they splat on the level top? Would a lemming climbing to the bottom of the level die or stop climbing and fall back up? If they tried to mine on the level border, would it make a CLANG noise like hitting steel? Does it currently do that if you mine right near the top of the level?

This is relevant to think about, we are adding a skill that interacts with what is above the lemming in a different way to the standard skill set, so I think a reassessment is fair. What will happen if a jumper is implemented? Will they bonk their head on the level ceiling or be allowed to move partially off the top of the screen? If you implemented a throwing skill, would the rocks stick to the sky?

This discussion will likely come back again at some point.

Personally I think the shimmier not shimmying along an open top level border makes the most sense and feels right, even if ultimately it ends up being an exception case to all other ceiling-based interactions.

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2017, 05:35:09 PM »
I split the topic and moved all the "solid ceiling" discussion to another thread: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3435.0

I will reply to the various points in a moment.

Offline nin10doadict

  • Posts: 331
  • Guy who constantly misses the obvious
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2017, 05:46:29 PM »
Whether or not the ceiling should be solid isn't the focus of this topic, it's whether or not we should let the Shimmier move across it (if it stays solid). I honestly don't think it would look that awful if the lemming is grabbing the border, as long as the area outside the game window is a different color from the background. Plus, if the ceiling already acts like steel, then this will be consistent with every other ceiling interaction. Then again, not many levels actually ask you to do anything with the ceiling. The fact that it's solid tends to be more important than the fact that it is steel.

Offline Nepster

  • Posts: 1829
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2017, 06:05:07 PM »
Something like this...

If the shimmier is also a climber, it turns around and climbs up a wall if the wall is climbable.
Thanks for the picture, but I see a few issues with this:
- It makes the shimmier much more powerful, as already mentoned above.
- With enough shimmiers, one would be able to climb any wall, regardless of the overhang.
- When transitioning from shimmier to climber, the lemming will have to turn around. Usually lemmings do this only if they meet terrain, not when terrain is missing. Apart from that, the turning is problematic wrt. the animation.
So I prefer not to implement this behaviour.

Climber->Shimmier:
I am actually curios how this is going to be implemented. In 2 the climber hangs a while facing the opposite direction, allowing for a shimmier assign. Here, as a climber immidiately falls opon reaching the ceiling, he would need to jump while still hanging at the wall + do a turn-around. This sounds very weird to me to be honest and I am not really sure if this is going to play out good.
Climbers will never jump, but every lemming remembers a skill assignment for a few frames, if it cannot be acted upon at the moment (e.g. assigning bashers while falling, ...). So a climber would turn into a shimmier, if (and only if) it remembers a shimmier assignment when the climber hits the ceiling.

A shimmier would only jump upon assignment near a ceiling, if not near a ceiling then it'll just be given the skill like normal.
No, the shimmier will always try to jump. This has one simple reason: As one cannot be sure that the ceiling is still there when the lemming reaches it, I will have to implement falling down after a missed jump anyway.
So there is no reason not to jump in the first place.

Another thing I'd like to ask is which of these will happen if a shimmier is assigned a walker:

1. The lemming stops being a shimmier and falls down from where he currently is.
2. The shimmier turns around.
3. You are unable to assign that lemming as a walker.
Very good question! And it's not clear at all what should happen:
- If one views the shimmier as a moving skill like the swimmer or glider, then one shouldn't be able to assign a walker to it.
- If one views the shimmier as just another non-permanent skill, then one should be able to assign a walker to it and the lemming should drop down. Currently one cannot assign walkers only for permanent skills.
- If one views the shimmier just as walking on the ceiling, then it should turn around. But I feel that this wouldn't be terribly useful.
Personally I prefer letting the shimmier drop down, if one assigns a walker to it, but that's not a strong preference.

Something fun to consider, what if anti-gravity is ever implemented?
This point is moot, because I will not implement anti-gravity due to the terrible amount of work needed for it.

Whether or not the ceiling should be solid isn't the focus of this topic, it's whether or not we should let the Shimmier move across it (if it stays solid). I honestly don't think it would look that awful if the lemming is grabbing the border, as long as the area outside the game window is a different color from the background. Plus, if the ceiling already acts like steel, then this will be consistent with every other ceiling interaction. Then again, not many levels actually ask you to do anything with the ceiling. The fact that it's solid tends to be more important than the fact that it is steel.
Good point. While I myself would prefer to have a non-solid ceiling, I think the consistency point is very convincing:
- If the ceiling is solid, let the shimmier shimmy along it, but heavily discourage this in level design and encourage actually adding some solid pieces there.
- If the ceiling is non-solid, then obviously let it act as air.

Offline Colorful Arty

  • Posts: 814
  • You are so loved!
    • View Profile
    • Colorful Arty's Youtube Page
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2017, 06:54:33 PM »
Some really good points made by all. Honestly, while I think it is important to be consistent, I think it is also important to make sure this new skill is useful, and contributes to some good puzzles. As such, I think implementing skill combinations with the shimmier (such as Kingshadow's proposal for the climber + shimmier) would make it a much better skill with more potential, and run less risk of it becoming a "meh" skill like the disarmer.
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline IchoTolot

  • Global Moderator
  • Posts: 3635
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2017, 08:01:56 PM »
Kieran:
"I think being able to shimmy along the top level border would look and feel absurd to me in the same way climbing up a solid side border would be absurd, because there is no terrain there. If you want to be able to shimmy on the top of the level, just put some terrain there."

Arty:
"This right here. While it is important to be consistent, it's just as important to be intuitive and to make sense. It really makes no sense for Lemmings to be able to shimmy across the top border of the level, and since the top border currently does not kill lemmings, it should not kill the shimmier if he jumps into it. Rather, since the top border acts like a steel wall, the shimmier should hit his head on the border and fall right back down to the ground."

This makes sense to me. The head hitting option makes more sense.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3934
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2017, 08:14:00 PM »
I find this thread really fascinating, but this takes the cake:

Quote
since the top border acts like a steel wall, the shimmier should hit his head

"Since"? What behavior do you expect from steel blocks in the level? If the top really behaved like all the other steel, then certainly we wouldn't bonk, we would shimmy?

-- Simon

Offline Colorful Arty

  • Posts: 814
  • You are so loved!
    • View Profile
    • Colorful Arty's Youtube Page
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2017, 08:27:13 PM »
I think it makes no sense to shimmy across the top border, since it really is just thin air in the Lemmings world; essentially that would mean them shimmying across thin air. The only reason the border right now "acts" like steel is to stop Lemmings from leaving the level boundary. That is why Lemmings who build into the ceiling bonk and stop, just as shimmiers should bonk and drop. I agree that shimmiers should shimmy across steel, but not the top of the level, because the level top is not actually steel, it just has some steel properties.
My Youtube channel where I let's play games with family-friendly commentary:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCiRPZ5j87ft_clSRLFCESQA

My Twitch channel: https://www.twitch.tv/colorfularty

My levelpack: SubLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4942.0
For Old formats NeoLemmix: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2787.0
For SuperLemmini: http://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=2704.0

My levelpack: ArtLems
For New formats NeoLemmix: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=4583.0

Offline Ryemanni

  • Posts: 328
  • Indeed.
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2017, 08:30:45 PM »
I have to agree with Arty. Ignore the technical side and think how weird it would look if Lemmings shimmied in nothingness.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2094
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2017, 10:05:32 PM »
On the subject of the process of jumping up to the ceiling: I'd say if no ceiling is present, either
A) the lemming jumps up and falls back down
or
B) nothing happens, and the skill is not consumed.

I don't really have a preference either way on that, but I am strongly against the skill being consumed while doing nothing. At least if you assign a basher where it can't do anything it slows it down a little, which is something.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2017, 09:34:21 AM »
(edit: moved the ceiling comments to the other thread.  I got confused and thought that thread was just a standalone Simon rant/post)
(edit2: copying it back here.  That thread was going at a somewhat different direction.  My point still applies even if we keep all existing non-shimmier ceiling behaviors.)

Climbers don't climb the level's left/right borders in NeoLemmix, do they?  They certainly don't in original Lemmings, despite other interactions present for those borders (eg. turning around walkers).

At least with climbers, even if they could climb the borders it would be quite difficult to exploit that behavior usefully.  Shimmying across the top border however would seem way more exploitable than any other ceiling interactions to date.  I don't think it is acceptable behavior to open up such an exploitable border behavior.  Heck, some people already feel even the existing border interactions are already too helpful.

I don't really have a preference either way on that, but I am strongly against the skill being consumed while doing nothing.

That seems reasonable.  I'm hard-pressed to think of any case in original Lemmings where a skill can be consumed with absolutely no effect to the lemming.  For cases involving steel, the game actually blocks the assignment attempt and plays a "clink" sound feedback to the user, rather than decreasing the skill count. Similarly, in Lemmings 2, shimmiers actually require a bit of headspace for the initial jump (more than the minimum shimmiable tunnel height), and assignment attempts violating that requirement simply do not take effect, leaving the skill count unchanged.
« Last Edit: September 30, 2017, 09:50:24 AM by ccexplore »

Offline mobius

  • Posts: 2761
  • relax.
    • View Profile
Re: [Suggestion][Skill] Some proposals for Shimmier mechanics/checks
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2017, 03:11:00 PM »
-on assigning shimmy when can't shimmy: jump and fall back down, continue on (wasting a skill? You can rewind a second and undo this)

-on shimmy at ceiling (disregarding ceiling debate): don't shimmy, no matter what. jump and fall, or die.

-on walker assignment to shimmier: IDK: do nothing makes sense. Falling would also be very useful. I don't use walkers, I find them overpowered to begin with. Stopping shimmiers would make them even more powerful.

-climber to shimmier: IDK this sounds nice at first but complicated. I guess I'd be on board with some small animation of climber when reaching a ceiling to let you assign shimmier. This sounds like it may though, be overpowered. It may be just as easy as designing your level with a notch near the ceiling to let the climber>walker>shimmier.

-kingshadows suggestion sounds really neat at first; but I agree I think it may be too powerful and not exactly consistant with all level design. If I'm correct in L2 the lemming just falls at this point; which is also useful. If Kingshadow's idea was the case you'd need to always place a piece of terrain hanging down to stop the shimmier (if you didn't want him climbing up). Possibly making it more obvious what your solution is.

@Nepster: "too much work; won't happen"
-What if at some later point someone else takes over as President Project Captain Admiral hmmmmmm? (or you just get help :) )
For this very reason I think we should at least be allowed to entertain ideas such as "what if reverse gravity gets implemented some day".
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
-Hakuin Ekaku

"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain