Skillbar info

[namida]

As a continuation of this now-closed topic (closed due to taking a slightly different direction with this topic), I'd like to get an idea of what people would like to see on the toolbar.

Assume we have more space than we do now (let's say 4 times the space, as well as replacing some words with icons to allow even more space), so that we don't have to compress everything into the smallest space available. Common suggestions are:

- Number of not-yet-spawned lemmings
- Number of killed lemmings
- Total number of lemmings
- Save requirement
- Time taken, in levels that don't have a time limit

So basically - for now, go crazy. List everything you'd like to see there (of course, feel free to debate other users' suggestions too). Don't worry about complex formuals that you can deduce as much as possible from a single value with (unless you think having the result of the formula in and of itself, not just the info you can deduce from it, is useful). We can cull this list later.

Although I may not be implementing these right away, there are reasons why I'd like to have the list before V1.37n launches.

[Proxima]

My preference is to keep things as they are, except:

* If there is no time limit, display time taken counting upwards, as on Lix. This (1) allows user to challenge themselves, (2) makes showing the word TIME redundant. It is obvious that the time is a time.
* Remove the word TIME and use the space saved to display the save requirement, by changing IN <saved> to IN <saved>/<required>.

Then there is no need to allocate more space to the toolbar.

[namida]

My preference is to keep things as they are, except:

* If there is no time limit, display time taken counting upwards, as on Lix. This (1) allows user to challenge themselves, (2) makes showing the word TIME redundant. It is obvious that the time is a time.
* Remove the word TIME and use the space saved to display the save requirement, by changing IN <saved> to IN <saved>/<required>.

Then there is no need to allocate more space to the toolbar.

This doesn't cover the commonly-requested feature of showing the total number of lemmings in a level including those who have not yet spawned. Without adding a larger quantity of information, it does not appear feasible to cover this and the number remaining to spawn (or number currently spawned) at the same time, and arguments have been made as to why both are important.

[namida]

On IRC, a decision has been come to to use an hourglass as the icon for time - at least in levels with time limits. Simon feels this would be inappropriate for levels that don't have a time limit because it implies a limited amount of time, if the "count upwards to measure time taken" feature is implemented (which I plan to implement). I personally don't see this as so problematic, as I just think of it as representing "time". For an alternative, a clock would be the obvious icon, but one that fits the size restrictions is not too easy to come by (8x16 ideally, if really nessecary can work with 16x16). Any suggestions on what might be done here?

Even though it's obvious that it's a time, I still feel that it should have some kind of icon, if only because every other stat displayed there has one.

[Simon]

10-minute hackjobs. :-) Public domain, no need to give credit. Should anti-alias against black.

-- Simon

[namida]

Stopwatch icon is good.

I'm working on an icon to replace "OUT", then we just need icons once other details to be added have been agreed on.

EDIT: Okay, so I have icons for:
- Lemmings out
- Lemmings saved
- Lemmings dead
- Time limit (a variant for time-limited and non-time-limited levels)
- Save requirement

I still need to make one for either total lemmings, or (probably more useful) remaining unspawned lemmings.

Any other details that should be on the info bar? It doesn't nessecerially matter if they can be deduced from these other values - if it's something that a player is likely to use often, then there's little reason to not just put it on the bar.

[namida]

No further suggestions? At the moment, it's looking like we'll have:

- Lemmings out (ie: same as current "OUT")
- Lemmings saved (ie: same as current "IN")
- Lemmings killed
- Save requirement
- Lemmings not yet spawned (total lemmings - lemmings out)
- Time limit
- Time taken

(With the last two possibly using the same space, depending on whether the level has a time limit or not, but I wonder whether this could get confusing, rather than just having seperate "Time taken" and "Time remaining", with the latter being blanked out - much as it currently is - for levels with infinite time.)

This is of course in addition to highlit lemming info, and a note to state so if the player is currently in replay mode.

Basically - the reason I want to decide on this before V1.37n releases, even though I probably won't implement it right away, is because of the move to external data files, and thus independance from building the pack into a single, static-version EXE. Basically; I want to make sure that all packs include the icons *now*, even if they aren't being used yet.

* If there is no time limit, display time taken counting upwards, as on Lix.

This has been implemented for V1.37n.

[Simon]

Several years after explaining it, "out" is still not important at all.

Out+hatch+cloners, that is the important number. Second best is out+hatch, and third best is initial. Reasoning: 3 long threads :E You can probably use the out icon for any of these, whatever it is.

Lems left in hatch are already in your list.

-- Simon

[namida]

The reason is for people who are used to having it, and thus using it as a factor in timing decisions. It does not hurt to have it there. (Yeah, "Hatch" can serve this purpose too, but that would mean people have to get used to that whereas they may very well already be used to using Out). Remember: Even with the additions of these extra things, NeoLemmix is still, at its core, a Lemmings clone. This differs from Lix, which is more like an entirely seperate (albeit very similar) game.

Cloners would be included in the "not yet spawned" count.

Given that "not yet spawned", "out" and "killed" would all be displayed, I don't know that "initial" is very nessecary, since it's basically just the total of all three. However, if people feel it's useful to have, I can definitely add that.

[Simon]

It does not hurt to have it there.

Stop being in love with whatever you happen to cook up first, and learn to ditch code.

This is the exact same problem we've discussed about not auto-saving failures. Of course one can find a reason for everything. Don't make up arcane use cases. Serve the needs of real people, with very real confusions about what they really need.

I am seriously considering to take a month-long break or longer. Caring about NL hasn't been too good for my health lately. I got asked once why I care about NL so much, or why I invest this much time in its discussions. "If I were you, I'd ignore it much more. But you actually want it to become good."

I wish you good luck. Stuff is rolling along well, you're solving important problems, people anticipate the upcoming release. You're producing working solutions based on a legacy codebase almost to be abandoned, which is a feat. I love having you around in #lix, it makes for great discussions. Always welcome.

But it breaks my heart that you solve each problem brilliantly 90 percent of the way, and then royally screw it up.

-- Simon

[Proxima]

I agree with Simon -- having five numbers is completely superfluous. There are only really two things you need to work out during play of a level:

(1) How close you are to the last lem coming out of the hatch;
(2) How close you are to failure due to too many dying.

If (1) is displayed as a separate datum, there is no need to calculate it. (2) must always be calculated, to an extent, since displayed statistics cannot account for the difference between a blocker you plan to save and a blocker you cannot save; but if "number died" and "save requirement" are displayed, then it is much easier to keep track of (2) by following those data rather than "OUT".

[namida]

So you would be happy with just those two pieces of information (and of course, the time limit or time taken, as applicable)?

I think that's simple enough to implement...

[Proxima]

Well, (1) is simple enough, just have "number still in hatch" as a displayed datum.

(2) is more complex, because the most direct way of showing it is "number allowed to die - number died", but concentrating on the negative aspect of allowed deaths is less satisfying than concentrating on the number saved. (I think this point was brought up in a previous discussion.) So what should be shown is (2a) save requirement, (2b) number already saved, (2c) total number of living lemmings (out + hatch, to use Simon's terminology). Then you know that the failure condition is (2c) falling below (2a - 2b).

Yes, I'm basically advocating that all this should be done exactly as Lix does it, but after thought and following the previous discussions I really think this is the best possible system.

[Nepster]

The most important thing for me is to have only about two or three numbers. Any more and I fear I will confuse everything.

That said, my preference is to have:
  Lemmings available (=Out+Hatch+Cloners), Lemmings needed (=Required-In).
Alternative:
 Lemmings available, Lemmings saved, Save requirement

Displaying Lemmings killed is a very negative point of view, so I prefer Lemmings available. Moreover Lemmings available is useful at the beginning of the level, while Lemmings killed is not.

Finally I don't really care much about symbols. I will set this option once and use it from then on. So I know by heart what these numbers mean.

EDIT: Proxima was faster posting essentailly the same.

[namida]

The problem with Nepster's suggestion here is it doesn't in any way (whether in full, or deducible if you know the total number of lemmings) show how many lemmings are not yet spawned. This can be important for levels like, eg. Cascade. Proxima's suggestion, on the other hand, does make this information available.

So... let me see if I'm understanding this right... we'd want to have:

1. Lemmings not yet spawned
2. Save requirement
3. Number already saved
4. Total number of living lemmings

So... I'm thinking (and let me know if I'm overlooking something here)... could #2 and #3 not simply be combined into "Number needed to be saved"? This would essentially be what the "Relative In Count" option already does - it displays the number of saved lemmings relative to the goal (so for example, if you're 10 lemmings away from the requirement it'll display -10; if you're 5 lemmings above the requirement it'll display 5).

This would leave three pieces of information - Number of not-yet-spawned lemmings, number of lemmings needed to be saved (or how many more you've saved than required), number of alive or potentially-alive (in the case of not-yet-spawned lemmings, or not-yet-used cloners) lemmings.

I would think that if the captions were replaced with icons, or even simply shortened to a single letter, this should fit without having to change anything about the info panel except for what text is displayed there.

EDIT: If we assume that we do not touch anything further left than where the "O" in "Out" is in the current display, we have 26 characters to work with. Take away 6 to use for time ("T" or an icon, plus 2 digits each for minutes and seconds, and the colon seperating them), so we have 20 characters.

If we assume each value will never exceed 999 (and lag from having too many lemmings becomes an issue before this point, unless you have a very powerful PC; besides I doubt there would ever be a need for this), then we have more than enough room. In fact, even if we were to allow up to 9999, we'd have enough room. This should be doable, unless I've miscalculated.