Author Topic: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V29)  (Read 33684 times)

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Offline Tsyu

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #30 on: September 30, 2014, 07:03:05 PM »
There is no escape to abort on Amiga. you MUST click nuke!
Actually, there is. Amiga Forever doesn't let you use that control unless you change a setting, though.

Zaphod77

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #31 on: September 30, 2014, 07:19:31 PM »

Almost everything you've mentioned here pertains to differences between the DOS and Amiga versions. Traditional Lemmix is supposed to be a reproduction of the DOS versions of Lemmings, so (especially if it's gameplay mechanics) anything that correctly emulates DOS but is incorrect for Amiga is definitely staying as-is.

Understood.  But then why does it have amiga sounds? :) we can easily extract the non music DOS sounds by capture from dosbox in sfx mode.  It'sthe music ones tha are tricky.  That said the dos music is just as tracker like as the amiga.  SO we jsut have to parse the sequencing data (slighly different fromm amiag) and sample the instruments and convert to mod file.
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One thing I will mention is about the continuous shrugger glitch - on DOS, this only happens in Orig. The exact same thing holds true for Lemmix - only Orig, or players based off Orig (CustLemmixOrig, Lemmings Plus DOS Project) have this mechanic; it won't happen under for example the ONML Lemmix player.
Wow. that's actually impressive. how does that affect gameplay? is there a use for it?
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If you'd like to create your own version of Lemmix that attempts to emulate the Amiga version rather than the DOS one, the source code is freely available. I'm not going to create a third version, as I'm already maintaining both the standard Lemmix and NeoLemmix, as well as the NeoLemmix Editor and working on my own level pack projects. I'm happy to offer some pointers in the right direction if you need it, though don't expect me to do all the work for you. :)
I'd do it, but Delphi compiler isn't free.  that's the holdup.  Tell me where to get a working compiler for free and I'll try it.
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Feature requests. :)
1) visible sound effect for builder clink (optional, feature from WIndows Lemings)
2) choice of boing or yippee for level exit.
3) fast forward behavior like Windows version. actual fast forward instead of 10 second skip.
4) DOS music. :)
5) configuration options for switching between Amiga and DOS behaviors when they are different.

1) This is the kind of feature that doesn't directly affect gameplay so may be implementable, but it's not going to be a high priority as that will be quite some work to do.
Looking forward to it, as it will solve the audio problem i have. :)
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2) Not going to happen. Changing sound effects is a *very* simple change (you don't even have to alter any code, just swap a couple of files around and rebuild the resources then recompile), so you can create your own version that does this if you like.
but boing is accurate to DOS, and yippee isn't. :)  I do think it's cute, but it's not accurate. :)
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3) This already exists. Press F to toggle it on and off.
I didn't know this.  I read the docs and did not know this.
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4) I'd really love to do this one, but as far as I'm aware there's no Delphi library that supports DOS Lemmings's music format. The closest I could do would be, if accurate MIDIs exist of them, converting those to MODs (though converted MIDIs are very large in file size compared to normal MODs). I do have versions of the Master System musics (as Lemmings Plus DOS Project uses these), but that's not the same (though it does have four unique tracks that aren't found in Amiga or DOS, and some tracks (especially London Bridge) are a lot better).
For most songs you can just use the amiga mods and swap instruments.  TenLem and Lemming1 are the most different. that and possible doggie.  I suspect the dos musics could be converted directly to MOD, i just don't have the know how to do it.
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5) As I said, traditional Lemmix is meant to be a replication of *DOS* Lemmings.

By the way, the Amiga version level files are out there if you want. You could use them via LookForLVLFiles. I actually have them handy in some form (I think the raw LVL files plus ODDTABLE; but I can convert that to a LVL file for each level fairly easily). This is because NeoLemmix players are based off the Amiga version levels.

that alone will probably be good enough. i would like the amiga levels, as they simply look better.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #32 on: September 30, 2014, 09:22:06 PM »
Understood.  But then why does it have amiga sounds? :) we can easily extract the non music DOS sounds by capture from dosbox in sfx mode.  It'sthe music ones tha are tricky.  That said the dos music is just as tracker like as the amiga.  SO we jsut have to parse the sequencing data (slighly different fromm amiag) and sample the instruments and convert to mod file.

It's at least partly simply a matter of practicality.  Due to historical reasons, the MODs from Amiga version are far more easily found on the Internet (and programming support for them far more easily available) compared with the DOS version.  The purist may also object to converting the DOS music to MOD format as the sampling process is not loseless (especially since IIRC the original MOD format only supports 8-bit samples, no ADSR envelope support for instruments IIRC, and probably has limits on sample size/rate, though those can be compensated through using an extended MOD-like format such as XM).

Alone the same line, it is somewhat of a historical/practical reason that Lemmix sticks with DOS Lemmings mechanics.  It's certainly intentional on my part as it is clear that on this forum DOS Lemmings is the most popularly played port, the one port that I can actually claim to have bought and own at some point, and I also happened to have the most technical know-how for reading that port's game programming, so that's why when I helped Erik with Lemmix's game mechanics we based it on DOS Lemmings.  It has been talked about from time to time to extend support to other popular ports like Amiga and Mac, but ultimately neither Erik or I had the time nor inclination to make a serious effort on that front so far, and certainly demand for it has been low.

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One thing I will mention is about the continuous shrugger glitch - on DOS, this only happens in Orig. The exact same thing holds true for Lemmix - only Orig, or players based off Orig (CustLemmixOrig, Lemmings Plus DOS Project) have this mechanic; it won't happen under for example the ONML Lemmix player.
Wow. that's actually impressive. how does that affect gameplay? is there a use for it?

I guess it's an obscure way to get a lemming who finishes building to start walking sooner.  Clearly it is possible to construct a level requiring that glitch, but it's fair to say it is of limited use besides a chuckle. ;P

I'd do it, but Delphi compiler isn't free.  that's the holdup.  Tell me where to get a working compiler for free and I'll try it.

Hmm, I distinctly remember downloading it from the Internet, but it was a long while ago.  Note that IIRC Lemmix uses Delphi 6, while even at that time when I downloaded, Delphi had moved on to higher version and considered v6 obsolete I believe.  So it might even have been a free legal download (maybe, honestly don't remember not that I would've cared one way or another at the time) from Borland or whoever had the rights to then-current Delphi at the time.

In worst case I can try and see if I can dig up what I have on my one old laptop that still has it installed, if you are not concerned about ownership/licensing.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V20)
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2014, 02:44:36 PM »
I'm not sure about the original Lemmix source, but all versions that I've compiled have been done in Delphi 7. I've *ahem* pointed him in the direction of where to find it via PM.

Also - rather than keeping the three seperate versions of Flexi (Orig, OhNo and Cust), I'm going to in future versions make it selectable in the SYSTEM.DAT on a per-mechanic basis for every mechanic that differs between these; mechanics that are consistent between all three will not be adjustable (except for the two that already are; namely the instant vs timed bombers and the one-way-right miner bug).

Likewise, I'm going to similarly change CustLemmix, and make it configurable in the INI file which set of mechanics to use rather than have three seperate players.
My Lemmings projects
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3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V20)
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2014, 04:31:08 PM »
Alright, in regards to the pause-for-time glitch, I now have it implemented correctly during normal gameplay (except for one thing - the window opening sound doesn't play until you unpause; but this is a minor detail - mechanics-wise it functions accurately fixed that detail). I still need to implement handling of it in replays, but I have a very good idea of *how* I'm going to implement it. I've now implemented it in replays too.

That aside - for the next update, what do people think about the disabling clicking the skill bar while paused? Keeping it as-is replicates DOS accurately, but since you can still select while paused via the F keys, there's ultimately no impact on gameplay mechanics, only on the user interface. (It's a VERY simple change to make.)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Zaphod77

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V20)
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2014, 05:11:29 PM »
I think disabling the hotbar should be a configuration option, and that if we are disabling the clicks, we might as well disable frame advance and fast forward while we are at it.

I think we are trying to make a BETTER dos lemmings then the original but one that's bug for bug compatible so all solutions that work on vgalemmi.exe work on lemmix player.   NOT disabling clicking on the bar is an improvement that should remain in my opinion. it allows for greater control by using mouse only.  It's an artificial barrier to execution of your solution that ultimately doesn't prevent anything. It's just inconvenient.

I think it should be possible to se up a "pure" mode, without any enhancements at all, and the improved mode with fast forward, frame advance, and clicking on the hotbar allowed.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V21)
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2014, 05:41:02 PM »
Alright, the update is here.

Lemmix V21
----------------
[[ Global changes ]]
*  The pause-for-time glitch is now implemented properly instead of just offering the rough
   emulation of resetting the timer after two seconds.

[[ CustLemmix ]]
*  There are no longer three seperate versions (Orig, OhNo and Cust); instead the mechanics
   set can be chosen in the INI file (the Mechanics option). 0 = CustLemm, 1 = Orig, 2 = OhNo.

[[ Flexi ]]
*  There are no longer three seperate versions (Orig, OhNo and Cust); instead the mechanics
   that vary between these versions can be configured for the game in question. The default
   (if no configuration options are specified) is equivalent to CustLemm mechanics.


Downloads can be found from here.
There's also an updated  version of LemMain which can set the new options for Flexi.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V20)
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2014, 05:49:00 PM »
That aside - for the next update, what do people think about the disabling clicking the skill bar while paused? Keeping it as-is replicates DOS accurately, but since you can still select while paused via the F keys, there's ultimately no impact on gameplay mechanics, only on the user interface. (It's a VERY simple change to make.)

Ugh. I don't understand why you'd want to take away control features from the player. My laptop doesn't have working F keys (they are almost all co-opted for things like changing the monitor brightness) so that would make the game unplayable for me, except when I happen to want bombers. Instead, making new players is a good opportunity to include more control features -- I haven't tried out your players so I don't know whether these are already in -- P as an alternative for pause, and Z/X to select the previous and next skill.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V20)
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2014, 05:51:36 PM »
That aside - for the next update, what do people think about the disabling clicking the skill bar while paused? Keeping it as-is replicates DOS accurately, but since you can still select while paused via the F keys, there's ultimately no impact on gameplay mechanics, only on the user interface. (It's a VERY simple change to make.)

Ugh. I don't understand why you'd want to take away control features from the player. My laptop doesn't have working F keys (they are almost all co-opted for things like changing the monitor brightness) so that would make the game unplayable for me, except when I happen to want bombers. Instead, making new players is a good opportunity to include more control features -- I haven't tried out your players so I don't know whether these are already in -- P as an alternative for pause, and Z/X to select the previous and next skill.

Currently, traditional Lemmix disables skill selection with the mouse while paused except by using the keyboard, which is true to how DOS works. I was asking if that should be changed - it seems there's little reason why it shouldn't be, so I'll do that.

I definitely implemented P for pause in NeoLemmix, I don't think I implemented it in traditional yet.

Neither currently implements Z/X for previous/next skill. Previously, Z was used to enable/disable the pseudo-implementation of the pause-for-time glitch, but now that that's been replaced with a proper replication of it, the Z key is free, so I could probably do this for traditional. It might be a bit harder (but should still be possible) for NeoLemmix, due to the variable skillsets.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V20)
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2014, 07:36:16 PM »
Currently, traditional Lemmix disables skill selection with the mouse while paused except by using the keyboard, which is true to how DOS works. I was asking if that should be changed - it seems there's little reason why it shouldn't be, so I'll do that.

Agreed.  Honestly the DOS behavior feels more like a bug than a feature.  I might go even one step further and also allow for (if not already allowed) skill assignments while paused (similar to Lix or Lemmings 2:  select and click on a lemming while paused, skill will be assigned and game unpauses--though I care less about the latter).

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V20)
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2014, 07:46:04 PM »
Currently, traditional Lemmix disables skill selection with the mouse while paused except by using the keyboard, which is true to how DOS works. I was asking if that should be changed - it seems there's little reason why it shouldn't be, so I'll do that.

Agreed.  Honestly the DOS behavior feels more like a bug than a feature.  I might go even one step further and also allow for (if not already allowed) skill assignments while paused (similar to Lix or Lemmings 2:  select and click on a lemming while paused, skill will be assigned and game unpauses--though I care less about the latter).

Already allowed. It doesn't unpause the game, it just advances it one frame (as does clicking in midair, or pressing N - the latter doesn't interrupt replays either). Didn't you implement that?
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V21)
« Reply #41 on: October 08, 2014, 11:42:53 AM »
I've implemented P for Pause and Z/X for skill select for the next update (I'll also implement the latter in NeoLemmix in a near-future update; the former has already existed in NeoLemmix for a long time now). Any other last-minute requests?

EDIT: Skill panel while pause has also been re-enabled.

I've also implemented the same two interface fixes (the mouse-on-skillbar one and binding-cursor-to-game-area one) that were fixed in the latest NeoLemmix update.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V21)
« Reply #42 on: October 08, 2014, 12:21:35 PM »
No? Well, here we go then.

Lemmix V22
------------------
[[ Global changes ]]
*  The skillbar now works when paused.
*  The 'P' key can now be used to pause/unpause the game (F11 still works too).
*  'Z'/'X' can now be used to change skills.
*  Fixed the Lemmix-exclusive glitch where moving the mouse onto the skill panel while passing
   over a lemming results in that lemming being treated as under the cursor while it isn't.
*  Fixed the binding of the mouse cursor to the gameplay area after switching to another window
   and back.
*  OGG is now supported for music files.
*  The DOS musics can be supported. The DOS format cannot be supported directly, so instead,
   rips of them in OGG format are used. This would result in a huge filesize, so they're not
   built into the EXE, but are instead available as seperate files, which if present, the
   players will use. (Flexi also supports this, so you can include low-quality musics and
   seperately distribute a high-quality music pack.)
*  The music is now somewhat quietened.
*  The DOS sound effects are now used.
*  All lemmings OhNo during a nuke, which is the correct behaviour for DOS Lemmings.

[[ Flexi Toolkit ]]
*  The Resource Builder will now accept OGG as well as IT files for music. If you want to create
   a high-quality pack to distribute seperately, build one from the OGG files and save the *ARC*
   file (this is your ****_Music.dat file), then build one from the IT files (or lower-quality
   OGGs, whatever) to build into your EXE.


https://www.dropbox.com/sh/n0nmnur3n8lwl99/AABlH68JMTPEX8mp95fhyeAla?dl=0

Note: The DOS music packs are in the "DOSMusic" folder. There aren't any provided for Covox, Prima or Xmas91/92; just create a copy of the Orig ones (or H94 one, for X91/92), as the musics are identical. You can also use the CustLemmix or Extra one instead for Covox/Prima, as all three (Orig, Cust, Extra) are identical up to Track #17, and Covox/Prima don't use anything beyond that.

The OGG support and DOS music pack support will be added to NeoLemmix too in the near future.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline Wafflem

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V22)
« Reply #43 on: October 08, 2014, 12:38:19 PM »
How about the feature where it still shows you the password when you fail the level?

Also, thanks to you and Zaphod77 for the DOS music and sounds. It brings back a lot of good memories of this game, as I grew up with the DOS version of Lemmings. Can't wait to see them in the NeoLemmix versions, too.

Will you also implement the DOS sounds in the Lemmings Plus games?
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Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V22)
« Reply #44 on: October 08, 2014, 01:02:17 PM »
I plan to keep the sounds as-is on NeoLemmix, which means there won't be any change to the NeoLemmix versions of LPDOS/LPII/LPIIBonus, or to LPIII. It would feel somewhat out-of-place otherwise.

Traditional versions, it would be an unrealistic task to rebuild LPII or LPII Bonus based on this code, as it doesn't have support for secret levels and gimmicks. LPDOS is more feasible to do (in which case I could also do a music pack for it with proper copies of the Master System musics).

The password thing is a great idea - I'll make a note to do that in the next update. On that note, if the algorithm is known, I'd quite like to implement the actual DOS passwords too.

One other feature on my todo list is exporting the levels with soft oddtabling (ie: level files that contain oddtable references) instead of hard oddtabling (ie: actually generating a pre-oddtabled level). NeoLemmix already has this feature coded for the next version. Also to do for both traditional and Neo, is a function to output images of all levels in one go.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)