Author Topic: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V29)  (Read 33083 times)

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Zaphod77

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #15 on: September 05, 2014, 09:10:05 PM »
I see a few problems with this lemmix player (and every other one i've tried).

1) not using dos music. lol.  ok, i know this would be technically difficult, but some of the DOS tunes sound great. (Lemming 1 and Ten Lemmings are my fave DOS tunes)
2) lemmings go yippee when exiting. they should go boing like they do on DOS and AMIGA.  to be fair this could be made a configuration option.  SNES and PSX at least DO go yippee as i recall.
3) direct drop is unintended, and doesn't work on amiga. so it probably shouldn't work in the player.  to be fair it does work in dos lemmings, but if we are replicating that, we should also replicate the DOS music and sounds.
4) levels that should have 100 lemmings have 80 instead (laugh). ok, i know this was inherited from DOS lemmings itself, but i think there should be a version with lemming counts corrected.
5) dos passwords are not accepted. they are properly documented, as I recall, so should be simple to implement (they store your score in them)

But this one is the only one that really needs fixing.

6) last three bricks of a builder should clink to alert you. this DOES work in dos version though it is hard to hear.


Offline Tsyu

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #16 on: September 05, 2014, 11:38:35 PM »
3) direct drop is unintended, and doesn't work on amiga. so it probably shouldn't work in the player.  to be fair it does work in dos lemmings, but if we are replicating that, we should also replicate the DOS music and sounds.
It actually does work in the Amiga version. Trust me--I've made it happen, and I can do it again.

4) levels that should have 100 lemmings have 80 instead (laugh). ok, i know this was inherited from DOS lemmings itself, but i think there should be a version with lemming counts corrected.
Can you give any examples of such levels?

6) last three bricks of a builder should clink to alert you. this DOES work in dos version though it is hard to hear.
They do make a sound, and it's the same one that's used in the Amiga version.

Zaphod77

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #17 on: September 06, 2014, 06:40:09 AM »
3) direct drop is unintended, and doesn't work on amiga. so it probably shouldn't work in the player.  to be fair it does work in dos lemmings, but if we are replicating that, we should also replicate the DOS music and sounds.
It actually does work in the Amiga version. Trust me--I've made it happen, and I can do it again.
Yeah. go play 2 player mode. notice that level called "Just for fun or to your doom?"  Hint. it's your doom, even though the lemmings drop onto the exit.  There is code to cause fallers to ignore the exit and go splat.  Until you make a recording of direct drop working on amiga i will not believe it.
Quote
4) levels that should have 100 lemmings have 80 instead (laugh). ok, i know this was inherited from DOS lemmings itself, but i think there should be a version with lemming counts corrected.
Can you give any examples of such levels?
Fun 8 is the first one that has 80 on DOS and 100 on amiga.  if your "amiga" version has 80 it's not the original.
Quote
6) last three bricks of a builder should clink to alert you. this DOES work in dos version though it is hard to hear.
They do make a sound, and it's the same one that's used in the Amiga version.
Okay i can hear the sound, but not over the music, and it sounds NOTHING like the amiga version. 

also sound for raising and lowering release rate, which exists in Amiga, is missing. To be fair, it IS missing from DOS version.

actual Amiga version.  actual sound is a LOT more audible and clanky then what lemmix uses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0tXh_baKE

Offline Tsyu

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #18 on: September 06, 2014, 08:08:26 AM »
Yeah. go play 2 player mode. notice that level called "Just for fun or to your doom?"  Hint. it's your doom, even though the lemmings drop onto the exit.  There is code to cause fallers to ignore the exit and go splat.  Until you make a recording of direct drop working on amiga i will not believe it.
I tested that level just now, and it seems that you're right. I even made sure that the lemmings were really falling into the exit's trigger area, and direct drop wasn't working. To definitively verify that direct drop doesn't exist in the Amiga version, I hacked a savestate to include the attached level, which has two streams of lemmings falling from an equal and lethal height, one of which falls in front of an exit; all of the lemmings went splat.

Still, I could have sworn that I got it working before...

Fun 8 is the first one that has 80 on DOS and 100 on amiga.  if your "amiga" version has 80 it's not the original.
Oh, I thought you meant changing the levels that have 100 lemmings to have only 80. (And now that I reread your comment, I can tell that that's clearly not what you meant. Sorry about that.)

Okay i can hear the sound, but not over the music, and it sounds NOTHING like the amiga version. 

also sound for raising and lowering release rate, which exists in Amiga, is missing. To be fair, it IS missing from DOS version.

actual Amiga version.  actual sound is a LOT more audible and clanky then what lemmix uses.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ON0tXh_baKE
Technically, they're the same sound; the Amiga one is just slower.

Zaphod77

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #19 on: September 15, 2014, 06:55:45 AM »
Okay, I tried it on another computer, and the sound is properly audible. just not on MY computer. any idea what would cause this?

Offline Prob Lem

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #20 on: September 15, 2014, 12:30:17 PM »
Okay, I tried it on another computer, and the sound is properly audible. just not on MY computer. any idea what would cause this?
I've encountered this myself on a couple of Linux boxes, and never found a solution, so I'd be really interested to know the answer to this as well!

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2014, 04:17:37 PM »
I had that issue myself when using Linux at one point, and as far as I'm aware there's no fix for it. It doesn't actually mute the sounds as such, but rather, it seems to store a few sounds up, then after a while play them all at once. Which isn't really much better. xD

Lemmix (especially traditional Lemmix) doesn't require an overly powerful PC, so if you're using Linux, perhaps running a Windows virtual machine (or dualboot) might be a better solution than trying to run it through Wine? It shouldn't need a particularly recent version of Windows - I can say for sure it works on Windows XP, I haven't tested on anything older though I can't think of any reason why it wouldn't work as far back as Windows 95 (I don't think it'll work on Windows 3.1 though :P). I also can't say I've ever tested it on Windows 8 or 8.1; but my PC is Win7 and runs it without issues.
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Offline Prob Lem

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2014, 11:12:44 PM »
I had that issue myself when using Linux at one point, and as far as I'm aware there's no fix for it. It doesn't actually mute the sounds as such, but rather, it seems to store a few sounds up, then after a while play them all at once. Which isn't really much better. xD
Actually, you'll have to excuse me... I was actually getting mixed up, and was thinking of Lemmini! Sorry about that.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #23 on: September 18, 2014, 12:36:04 AM »
I had that issue myself when using Linux at one point, and as far as I'm aware there's no fix for it. It doesn't actually mute the sounds as such, but rather, it seems to store a few sounds up, then after a while play them all at once. Which isn't really much better. xD
Actually, you'll have to excuse me... I was actually getting mixed up, and was thinking of Lemmini! Sorry about that.

Ah. Lemmini does seem to sometimes hang for a couple of seconds when a sound is played, then fast-forward up to where it should be, which is very disruptive. It seems that SuperLemmini has fixed this issue though.
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3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #24 on: September 24, 2014, 07:07:05 PM »
Alright, so, I went and recreated all seven of these based on the CustLemmix source code; this means that now whenever I update CustLemmix, if any update applies to the player at a whole (and isn't something specific to Cust or Flexi) only, all these players can benefit from the update too. It also means that I can fix any other issues that arise with these players, or much more easily build customized versions of them as nessecary (or custom players altogether).

Here's a list of changes. Note that this may not capture everything that's changed between the previous version of these players and the new one, especially in terms of things that aren't player-specific. If there's anything you'd like to see added, let me know in this topic (or the CustLemmix topic if it specifically relates to that - that one's over in the Level Designing section); though keep in mind I will NOT make any changes to the gameplay mechanics as that kills the whole point of keeping a traditional version; instead you may want to suggest them for NeoLemmix.

Lemmix Players V19
----------------------------
[[ Global changes ]]
*  Pressing 5 to skip a level now only works when Cheat Codes is active.
*  You can now save a level image by pressing I; this works both during gameplay (in which
   case it will save the current state of the level, including lemmings) or on the preview
   screen before a level.

[[ Original ]]
*  Now has the extended version of the Xmas graphic set (no levels use it,
   but for a long time all official graphic sets have been included in the
   Orig player for use with LookForLVLFiles).

[[ Holiday 94 ]]
*  Now has the extended version of the Xmas graphic set.

[[ Xmas 91/92 ]]
*  Xmas 91 no longer has the two ONML levels included.
*  Now has the extended version of the Xmas graphic set.

[[ Extra ]]
*  Added "Ohayo Lemming San" to the Other rank.
*  In the other rank, "It's Not Over Til It's Over" and "Something Weighing On Your
   Mind?" are now in the correct order.
*  Other 10 (formerly Other 9) now displays the objects in correct colors.
*  The special graphics levels (except Sunsoft Special) now play the correct music.


Downloads: https://www.dropbox.com/sh/uh1bqc4cmi1hj0q/AADY-lF_cdyWbA5Vaoc3ekdia
Source code: https://www.dropbox.com/s/m92imjda4mc2yo3/PlayerSource_V19.zip (also includes CustLemmix and Flexi Lemmix)
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V20)
« Reply #25 on: September 25, 2014, 11:25:49 PM »
Another update so soon...
There probably won't be so many on this now though (apart from adding the Extra Part 2 player at some point). Unless there's any requested features, I don't really see much more worth adding to traditional. Although one thing I would like to do is properly replicate the pause-for-time glitch...

Lemmix Players V20
----------------------------
[[ Global changes]]
*  You can dump all levels to LVL files by pressing F4 on the main menu. This will not
   preserve oddtabling information, but oddtable-based changes will be applied to the
   output levels. (This option is not available in the Flexi player.)
*  Fixed the flicker in the center of the screen when leaving the preview screen.
*  Removed the "LevelPack" INI entry from players other than CustLemmix.
*  Fixed the issue where all players (apart from Flexi) would save replays based on the
   level name instead of its rank and position; only CustLemmix was meant to do this.

[[ Extra ]]
*  Restored the hardcoded 66% requirement on Sega 3; this was accidentally missing from
   the V19 release.


All downloads can be found from this starting point - just go to the folder of what you're after.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Zaphod77

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #26 on: September 30, 2014, 04:51:21 PM »
I had that issue myself when using Linux at one point, and as far as I'm aware there's no fix for it. It doesn't actually mute the sounds as such, but rather, it seems to store a few sounds up, then after a while play them all at once. Which isn't really much better. xD
Actually, you'll have to excuse me... I was actually getting mixed up, and was thinking of Lemmini! Sorry about that.

No this issue is different. The sound DOES play, but sounds wrong. volume is low and the sound is full of noise, instead of the clean "clink" sound that it's supposed to be.  totally impossible to hear over the music.

Another bug. clicking nuke should play "Oh no!" sound effect when the first lemming is converted into a bomber.  either that, or they all should say "Oh no!" before they explode, but the former is correct behavior.  The latter would be more amusing though. :)

Pausing for time glitch is easy to implement. make the code that plays the intro sound and opens the trap door run even when paused.  But again if we are gonna do that... might as well implement the DOS sound effects and music. :)

Also, amiga has sound effects in places the DOS does not, like increase/decrease rate.

SO here are what I believe the differences between the two.

Amiga has cute intro. :) DOS doesn't. :(

DOS has FM sound effects, amiga has digital sound.  Would like version with DOS musics. :)

Amiga has sound effects for the following things DOS does not.
Increasing/decreasing rate. pitch of sound effect depends on the rate.
Lemming falling off the bottom of the screen.

As far as I know, all other sounds are in fact present in both, including change skill, assign skill, and last 3 bricks clink. They are harder to hear over music in DOS though. Amiga  has better sound.

Amiga doesn't have following glitches present in DOS.
Nuke glitch (should be configuration option)
Pausing for time (should be configuration option)
Direct drop  (should be configuration option)
Continuous shrugger (assigning climber skill to a shrugging builder) this one should just stay fixed. :)
All other glitches are common to both.

Amiga has 2 player mode. this is technically difficult on PC, but there is a possible workaround. use gamepad support, which will put both players on an even footing.

Amiga has cute hand cursor in menus, and cute sleeping lemming cursor during loading. DOS only has cursor during levels, and doesn't accept mouse anywhere else. we should use amiga method and allow mouse throughout.

Amiga has navy blue sky in most levelsets.  DOS only has black sky.  May be true of ALL levels, or all but special levels.

Amiga has graphics that DOS is missing in certain levels.  Levels set completely over water have the water removed to make it easier on your poor 386 cpu. :)  Modern computers can take it, so we should restore the gfx.

Most levels, except for We All Fall Down Mayhem that have 80 in DOS have 100 in Amiga.

Resolution is the same, 320x200.

Other graphical changes. Amiga looks better.

Scrolling system is different on Amiga. you can scroll faster by using right mouse button, but normal scroll is slower then DOS.

Some level requirements and skills are different. requires A/B comparison.

right mouse button for making NON assigned lemming priority DOES exist on both.

Amiga version changes skills using z/x or cursor keys. PC lets you change skills with function keys. We can support both methods.

Amiga version is P to pause. it's f11 on pc. we should go PC, or support both.

There is no escape to abort on Amiga. you MUST click nuke! We should go PC on this for the best version of lemmings.

CANNOT change release rate or skills while paused on Amiga! you can only scroll the screen or click the map to jump. CAN do both in DOS (we should go DOS for this one)

Feature requests. :)
1) visible sound effect for builder clink (optional, feature from Windows Lemings)
2) choice of boing or yippee for level exit.
3) fast forward behavior like Windows version. actual fast forward instead of 10 second skip.
4) DOS music. :)
5) configuration options for switching between Amiga and DOS behaviors when they are different.
6) gamepad support :) suggest following buttons, in order of priority.
Left Mouse
Right Mouse.
(those two work like those buttons in every way)
active skill shift left
active skill shift right
release rate up
release rate down
paws (start button)
nuke. (select button press twice)
abort (start+select)
fast forward

most modern gamepads give you 10 buttons.  this is nine. 

minimal button mapping should be

Left button (can be used to change skills, allow usage while paused)
Right Button
paws

everything else can be done with cursor, if we allow it's use while paused everywhere in game.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V20)
« Reply #27 on: September 30, 2014, 05:17:50 PM »
Just to make sure you're not simply expecting a different version's sound effect (as it sounds like you're describing the WinLemm sound, which is not the one these players use for the builder warning), is this the sound you're hearing a distorted version of?
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Zaphod77

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (Current: V20)
« Reply #28 on: September 30, 2014, 06:24:15 PM »
that is what it sounds like i'm hearing a distorted and quiet version of.  but on the other computer i tested on i can hear it fine over the music. but not my laptop.

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix Player Collection (including H94, Covox, Prima and "Extra")
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2014, 06:38:53 PM »
(...)

Almost everything you've mentioned here pertains to differences between the DOS and Amiga versions. Traditional Lemmix is supposed to be a reproduction of the DOS versions of Lemmings, so (especially if it's gameplay mechanics) anything that correctly emulates DOS but is incorrect for Amiga is definitely staying as-is.

One thing I will mention is about the continuous shrugger glitch - on DOS, this only happens in Orig. The exact same thing holds true for Lemmix - only Orig, or players based off Orig (CustLemmixOrig, Lemmings Plus DOS Project) have this mechanic; it won't happen under for example the ONML Lemmix player.

If you'd like to create your own version of Lemmix that attempts to emulate the Amiga version rather than the DOS one, the source code is freely available. I'm not going to create a third version, as I'm already maintaining both the standard Lemmix and NeoLemmix, as well as the NeoLemmix Editor and working on my own level pack projects. I'm happy to offer some pointers in the right direction if you need it, though don't expect me to do all the work for you. :)

Quote
Feature requests. :)
1) visible sound effect for builder clink (optional, feature from WIndows Lemings)
2) choice of boing or yippee for level exit.
3) fast forward behavior like Windows version. actual fast forward instead of 10 second skip.
4) DOS music. :)
5) configuration options for switching between Amiga and DOS behaviors when they are different.

1) This is the kind of feature that doesn't directly affect gameplay so may be implementable, but it's not going to be a high priority as that will be quite some work to do.
2) Not going to happen. Changing sound effects is a *very* simple change (you don't even have to alter any code, just swap a couple of files around and rebuild the resources then recompile), so you can create your own version that does this if you like.
3) This already exists. Press F to toggle it on and off.
4) I'd really love to do this one, but as far as I'm aware there's no Delphi library that supports DOS Lemmings's music format. The closest I could do would be, if accurate MIDIs exist of them, converting those to MODs (though converted MIDIs are very large in file size compared to normal MODs). I do have versions of the Master System musics (as Lemmings Plus DOS Project uses these), but that's not the same (though it does have four unique tracks that aren't found in Amiga or DOS, and some tracks (especially London Bridge) are a lot better).
5) As I said, traditional Lemmix is meant to be a replication of *DOS* Lemmings.


By the way, the Amiga version level files are out there if you want. You could use them via LookForLVLFiles. I actually have them handy in some form (I think the raw LVL files plus ODDTABLE; but I can convert that to a LVL file for each level fairly easily). This is because NeoLemmix players are based off the Amiga version levels.
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2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)