Author Topic: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?  (Read 4564 times)

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Offline Clam

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Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« on: November 27, 2013, 06:48:32 am »
Since most of the Lemmini designers from Lemmings Heaven seem to have made it here, and Lix has been around for a while, now seems a good opportunity to see how many of us use each version/game. Vote for the one that you use most for building levels. (I could just read through the posts on the Level Design board, but this way is more fun :))

I've switched almost exclusively to Lix. I love the new skills and features, and the absence of steel glitches. Yet it's still true enough to the original game. It feels like Lemmings updated for modern times :)


("Other" includes L1 ports and later Lemmings games. I don't know of anyone actively making levels for these though.)

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2013, 07:04:35 am »
Well, when I first started making levels, LemEdit and CustLemm is all there was. I wasn't really any great at making levels back then though. Once I discovered Cheapo, I used that almost exclusively for the longest time - it was only when I realised that Cheapo had well and truly died out and wasn't coming back that I made the switch to Lemmix (actually, I used LemEdit + WinLemm for my first release after switching away from Cheapo - I speak of course of "Ji Hoon's Lemmings Remake" here, the only large pack I've released without using the Lemmings Plus branding) - I believe my Lemmings Plus 3 was one of the last Cheapo packs to be released? And for those who didn't know, I was even planning on making a Lemmings Plus 4 in Cheapo, but that project never got very far (although some of the LPDOS levels are remakes from it - most notably, No Time To Die and Death Row).

With Lemmix being accurate to the originals, but with handy features like savestates and replays that are invaluable for testing level designs and concepts, it just can't be beaten IMO. Not to mention it's open source, which means I can easily compile the all-in-one player apps for my level packs (and as you know, my level packs are almost inevitably on the very large side - there was the Ultimate Challenge series and a couple of individual small packs, but with 5 (soon to be 6) large packs released, you can see which type I go for more often) - and include custom tweaks to the mechanics while I'm at it (the most notable one being the instant bombers in later versions of LPDOS and all versions of LPII). There's also that I don't have to worry about if a future update will break something in my levels - because I can just compile a player which has the exact mechanics, glitches, quirks and all that I was working with when I made the levels. Being able to use the editor I'm most used to (except for maybe the Cheapo one) is a bonus.

Lemmini just isn't really my style. I feel it's a bit clunky and the mechanics a tad on the weird side, plus, I like the challenge of working with the original low-resolution (it also allows me to hide my complete lack of artistic skill a bit more xD). Not to mention the f***ing annoying sound glitch, where Lemmini sometimes lags (then super-speeds to catch up to where it should be) when trying to play a sound - this alone is pretty much a dealbreaker for me, even without the other issues. (These reasons are also why I don't even release Lemmini ports of my packs - because I simply cannot be bothered testing the levels in Lemmini. Yes, it has replay, and yes, back in the Cheapo days that's how testing was done, but these days with Lemmix available, it's hard to go back to that.)

Lix doesn't work very well on my PC, as I explained in another topic. I remember it (or *some* fan-made multiplayer clone by a member of this board, anyway... the name L++ rings a bell...) running better on an older PC I had; though I never tried the level editor much, I just played a few online games. Though admittedly, multiplayer in almost any game isn't really my thing, the only game I really do multiplayer much is Tekken. Another thing I'm not too keen on with Lix is the new skills - well obviously, I could just make levels that only use the classic 8, but yeah, it does mean more skills to familiarise myself with exactly how they work; not to mention getting used to exactly how the existing ones work in Lix.

So yeah. Lemmix for me; I would be open to working with Lix if it worked for me (though with the flexibility it allows, I'd probably ultimately stick with Lemmix for major packs, but that doesn't mean I wouldn't release a few smaller packs on Lix). I prefer to stay away from Lemmini. The other thing I have considered is making my own engine - a lot of work, but it might be worth it for being easier to customize things than Lemmix (which, while open source, is still not my own code and thus I don't know all the ins and outs of how it works - it's not even in a language that I'm overly familiar with).
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Luis

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2013, 07:54:50 am »
Lemmix. I'm not interested in the other ones.
Mr. Lemmings PSP user.

Offline Simon

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2013, 09:02:58 am »
Lix (continued development of L++) has the mentioned runtime problems, and physics are nonstandard.

But it has the only editor I've learned to use properly. Most of my work were test/example levels and initial game content. The Lix community pack has around 5 levels by me, others were far more active.

If the poll were "what would you recommend others to make packs in", then it's Lemmix: Less runtime problems, standard L1 physics and a wide spread on this forum.

-- Simon

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2013, 09:06:44 am »
Lix (continued development of L++)

So they are the same. I had a feeling, but I wasn't 100% sure. Thanks. =)
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline jammer64

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2013, 09:31:41 am »
Lemmix all the way! ;) I miss music/sfx in level viewer, though :P

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2013, 10:09:53 am »
Lemmix all the way! ;) I miss music/sfx in level viewer, though :P

Use the Lemmix Player. ccexplore's version of the Original player can load all styles. If you want it with OhNo(/CustLemm) mechanics, I can build one that handles all styles.

To play custom levels in it, rename the level to, for example, 0101.lvl for Fun 1, 0403.lvl for Mayhem 3, etc, and put them in the same folder as the Lemmix player EXE. Also, in the INI file, change "LookForLVLFiles" to 1.
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Proxima

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2013, 01:50:55 pm »
Lix, exclusively (apart from the level design contests). I only installed Lemmix as a tool for solving L1 challenges. Before Lix came out, I used Cheapo exclusively, because I loved some of its features, like custom styles and traps, vertical scrolling levels, absence of steel glitches... namida may indeed have made the last finished Cheapo pack, but I was working on one up to the end of the old forum, and I made what is probably the last individual Cheapo level ("Social Climbing").

So I was very pleased to discover that Lix has everything Cheapo had, except music. The new skills are excellent -- a lovely example of choosing skills by thinking about which ones will add enough to gameplay and puzzle design to be worth the effort of getting used to them, rather than throwing in the kitchen sink L2 style. I still dislike the trampoline objects, but they are used on a tiny minority of levels.

The Lix editor is so easy-to-use that trying to use Lemmix after it feels like multiplying 10-digit numbers by hand after being used to the luxury of having a computer.

And, considering the level of skill and knowledge on this forum, it's great that when I make a level, I only have to spend time freeing it of legitimate backroutes, and don't have to worry about glitch solutions -- the latter is the editing equivalent of what TVTropes calls Fake Difficulty.

And, even though I haven't had time to take part for many months now, Lix multiplayer was great fun  8)  It blows every other multiplayer Lemmings clone out of the water, thanks to the presence of batters (allowing you to remove enemy blockers), the variety of level types, and the skill of the level designers.

But, yeah. If only it had music  :P

Offline RubiX

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #8 on: November 27, 2013, 05:42:59 pm »
Not to put the other editors down but

Lix, by a long shot.
I have felt so comfortable making stuff in it, that you can do things with ease and extremely quickly.

Offline mobius

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2013, 04:36:49 am »
All of them. Because none of them have everything I want in my ideal lemmings program. I find them all severely lacking in areas. But lately I've being using Lemmini mostly.

I think Lemmini is hands down way better than the Lemmix player.
-sound
-Steel works
-trigger areas work so exits and traps work better
-directional select
-fewer of the old DOS glitches. Sure Lemmini has it's own glitches but apart from the basher glitch most of these aren't real easy to find. (and don't open up as many backroutes)
-non full screen. I don't like full screen. I don't mind the smallness, though I wouldn't mind it being a little bigger either.

That's one thing I dislike about Lix, even when in windowed mode; it's pointless because the cursor is trapped in the window. Personally however, I consider Lix has enough differences that it's not really a lemming clone anymore. It's closer to a Lemmings2 clone. After not having used it for a while when I played it again a few weeks ago I forgot how different it was.

I never used LemEdit, Custlem or Cheapo, before my time.

I should add I'm glad for any of these programs to be able to have this community.
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Offline jammer64

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2013, 05:40:27 am »

Use the Lemmix Player. ccexplore's version of the Original player can load all styles. If you want it with OhNo(/CustLemm) mechanics, I can build one that handles all styles.

To play custom levels in it, rename the level to, for example, 0101.lvl for Fun 1, 0403.lvl for Mayhem 3, etc, and put them in the same folder as the Lemmix player EXE. Also, in the INI file, change "LookForLVLFiles" to 1.

Yeah, I know this. Still, it's not too comfy - getting dat levelpack, extracting and renaming all levels ;) Pity that LemmixPlayer is not the default remote viewer from editor :P

Offline namida

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2013, 06:37:10 am »
I never used LemEdit, Custlem or Cheapo, before my time.

CustLemm is basically just a hacked copy of the original game which loads from LEVELPAK.DAT in a logical order (1st level first, 2nd level second, etc, up to a maximum of 10 levels in a pack), rather than the all-over-the-place ordering of the original games. It's purely a player, there's no specific editor for it - anything which uses the LVL format is compatible (although jLevelBuilder can't pack it into DAT files, but you can use LemEdit/Lemmix or Mindless's tools to do that). Although, at the time CustLemm first came out, LemEdit was the only editor there was.

LemEdit is actually still a viable option today, if you don't mind using DOSBox. I personally still find it to be the most user-friendly of the LVL/DAT-compatible editors, hence why it's still my editor of choice, though jLevelBuilder is posing a bit of a threat, something I can't say any previous editor has done.

Cheapo is more comparable to Lemmini or Lix, in that it's a completely seperate engine with its own unique formats. It came around long before Lemmini, Lix and even Lemmix, so in its time, it was the ONLY way to make levels with custom graphics, or levels with vertical scrolling. The engine also ran a bit smoother than the DOS games, and it had a few extra features - ones that would be considered absolutely standard today, but were relatively unheard of back then, like replays and fast forward. While it's past its time now, it was downright the best in its day - and a lot of the best levels from the Lemmings' community history are Cheapo levels. (Some of the levels from LPDOS were originally Cheapo levels that I remade in LemEdit, I think the most notable examples of such are Danger 14, Psycho 18, Psycho 20, Psycho 28, and a special mention for how much damn effort it took to get the trick working in DOS (I sure wouldn't've been able to do it by myself, so thank ccexplore for most of the work on this one) compared to how easy it is to make a level using it in Cheapo, Psycho 26 "Oblivion" which was (in its original Cheapo form, from Ultimate Challenge 3 and re-used in Lemmings Plus 2) probably my most famous level prior to me making "To The End!")
My released level packs:
Lemmings Plus Series | Doomsday Lemmings

Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2013, 07:08:22 am »
Too hard to decide, as there really should be more than on option in the poll. (Although I slipped my vote on Lemmix) Within the past 5 years I created levels for all three editor programs. I remember creating most of the Mayhem levels for Rubix's Reloaded thread in the Lix topic,  My 15 level sets back in early 2008 were initially created for Lemmini, as that was the first clone I used, but it was optimised for Lemmix use instead. I remember creating an easy version of the ONML set for Lemmini, and then I did Holiday Lemmings '95 (My personal spin on Xmas lemmings) as well as a full set of brick-based levels for Lemmix.
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline ccexplore

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #13 on: February 22, 2014, 06:38:42 am »
But, yeah. If only it [Lix] had music  :P

I got bored tonight and started looking through Simon's etc folder on asdfasdf like a creepy stalker ;P, and found this actually pretty decent stab at Lix theme music:

http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/LixThemeBeta1.0.wma

So you need to ask Simon why it isn't included yet.  I think it's usable as-is, and if not I'm sure someone here like DragonsLover can easily spruce it up a bit more.

This is almost 2 years ago though according to the timestamp, so maybe people already knew about this and did not like it?

Offline Minim

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Re: Lemmix, Lemmini or Lix?
« Reply #14 on: February 22, 2014, 07:16:18 am »
But, yeah. If only it [Lix] had music  :P

I got bored tonight and started looking through Simon's etc folder on asdfasdf like a creepy stalker ;P, and found this actually pretty decent stab at Lix theme music:

http://asdfasdf.ethz.ch/~simon/etc/LixThemeBeta1.0.wma

So you need to ask Simon why it isn't included yet.  I think it's usable as-is, and if not I'm sure someone here like DragonsLover can easily spruce it up a bit more.

I think usable is the best word for it. That sort of music would be great for the level editor in my opinion, but perhaps not for the game. Not sure why you mentioned someone like DragonsLover, but I'm a talented music composer as well so you could ask me for any possible ideas.
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