Author Topic: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?  (Read 30872 times)

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Offline Minim

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OK, this challenge is similar to the "skills you can't live without" thread, with one slightly more difficult twist: You are now trying to save 100% (or if that is not possible, the maximum percentage known to be attainable).

The maximum number of lemmings saved, if not 100%, is indicated after each level.

Original Lemmings

Fun
1: 1 digger
2: 10 floaters
3: 3 blockers (47/50)
4: 10 climbers, 1 miner
5: 3 bashers
6: 2 bombers (48/50)
7: 2 builders
8: none
9: none
10: none
11: none
12: none
13: 3 diggers
14: none
15: 2 builders
16: 4 builders
17: none
18: 5 bombers (65/70)
19: 2 builders
20: 1 builder
21: none
22: none
23: none
24: none
25: none
26: none
27: 1 builder
28: 5 builders
29: none
30: none

Tricky
1: 1 builder
2: 5 diggers
3: 1 builder
4: 5 builder
5: 3 builders
6: 2 builders
7: 7 builders
8: 15 builders
9: none
10: 4 builders
11: none
12: 2 floaters
13: 3 builders
14: 5 builders
15: 3 bombers (7/10)
16: 4 bombers, 1 basher, 1 miner (46/50)
17: 2 bombers (48/50)
18: 1 digger (9/10)
19: 1 climber, 1 builder
20: none
21: 3 builders
22: 9 builders
23: 9 climbers, 10 floaters, 1 builder, 2 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger (79/80)
24: 1 blocker, 2 builders
25: 8 builders, 1 digger
26: none
27: 2 builders
28: 1 builder
29: none
30: 2 miners

Taxing
1: 6 builders, 1 basher
2: 1 builder
3: 6 builders
4: 8 builders
5: 5 builders, 1 basher
6: 3 bashers, 1 digger
7: 1 climber, 1 bomber, 5 builders, 1 basher (79/80)
8: 3 builders, 3 bashers
9: none
10: 2 builders
11: 7 builders
12: 2 builders
13: 1 builder, 2 bashers, 2 miners
14: 17 builders
15: none
16: 1 floater, 16 builders
17: 1 builder
18: 10 builders
19: 5 bombers (65/70)
20: none
21: none
22: 1 builder
23: 15 builders
24: 6 builders
25: 5 builders, 1 basher
26: 5 builders
27: 1 blocker, 7 builders (77/80)
28: 1 climber, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 8 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner (70/80)
29: 1 builder
30: 7 diggers

Mayhem
1: 1 floater, 23 builders
2: 15 builders
3: 1 builder, 1 miner, 1 digger
4: 4 bashers
5: 4 blockers, 5 builders, 1 digger (76/80)
6: 6 builders
7: 5 builders, 3 bashers, 3 diggers
8: 3 builders, 1 digger
9: 6 builders, 2 bashers
10: 3 floaters, 1 blocker, 17 builders, 3 bashers, 1 digger (73/75)
11: 9 diggers
12: 1 builder
13: 1 builder
14: 16 builders
15: 4 builders
16: 1 basher, 1 digger
17: 2 builders
18: 13 builders
19: 1 climber, 2 bombers, 18 builders (48/50)
20: 2 climbers, 1 blocker, 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 miners
21: 21 floaters, 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
22: 6 builders
23: 10 builders, 1 basher
24: 3 bashers
25: 7 builders
26: 3 bombers, 1 blocker, 11 builders (76/80)
27: 2 bashers, 1 digger
28: 5 builders, 1 basher
29: 5 blockers, 12 builders, 1 basher, 2 diggers (78/80)
30: 10 builders

Oh No! More Lemmings

Tame
13: 1 builder
All others: none

Crazy
1: 3 blockers, 4 diggers
2: 3 builders, 1 digger
3: 2 bombers (48/50)
4: 4 builders
5: 7 builders
6: 1 climber, 5 builders, 2 diggers
7: 1 climber, 1 floater, 3 builders, 1 basher
8: 4 builders, 2 bashers
9: none
10: 7 builders, 1 basher (79/80)
11: 1 builder (40/80)
12: 2 builders, 3 bashers
13: 1 builder, 2 miners, 1 digger
14: 2 blockers, 4 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger (48/50)
15: 3 builders, 1 digger
16: 1 builder
17: 1 blocker, 4 builders, 2 bashers, 2 diggers
18: 4 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
19: 5 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
20: 10 builders, 1 basher

Wild
1: 1 builder, 1 miner
2: 5 builders
3: 6 builders
4: 6 builders, 1 basher
5: 2 bombers, 3 blockers, 4 builders (77/80)
6: 1 builder
7: 3 builders, 2 bashers
8: 10 climbers, 10 floaters, 1 builder
9: none
10: 4 builders, 1 basher, 2 diggers
11: 4 builders
12: 7 builders, 3 bashers
13: 2 climbers, 2 bombers, 2 builders, 2 bashers, 1 miner (77/80)
14: 3 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger
15: 1 bomber, 3 blockers, 2 builders, 3 bashers, 1 digger (48/50)
16: 1 climber, 4 builders
17: 2 builders
18: 2 bombers, 10 builders (78/80)
19: 7 builders, 2 bashers
20: 3 builders, 1 digger

Wicked
1: 1 bomber, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger (59/60)
2: 5 builders, 1 miner, 5 diggers
3: 3 builders
4: 1 climber, 1 bomber, 16 builders, 1 basher (49/50)
5: 1 builder, 1 basher, 1 digger
6: 8 builders, 4 miners
7: 4 bombers, 2 blockers (76/80)
8: 1 climber, 4 bombers, 1 builder (46/50)
9: 1 floater, 20 builders
10: 1 floater, 1 blocker, 9 builders, 1 digger (49/50)
11: 5 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
12: 1 bomber, 2 blockers, 7 builders, 1 miner (79/80)
13: 9 builders
14: 1 miner
15: 1 floater, 8 builders, 1 miner (48/50)
16: 1 bomber, 1 builder (5/6)
17: 6 builders
18: 5 builders
19: 6 builders, 2 bashers
20: 1 blocker, 6 builders, 1 digger

Havoc
1: 6 builders
2: 1 climber, 1 floater, 11 builders, 2 diggers
3: 1 builder, 1 basher
4: 1 builder, 1 basher
5: 2 climbers, 2 bashers, 2 miners
6: 1 miner
7: 1 climber, 9 builders, 2 bashers, 1 miner, 1 digger
8: 1 climber, 4 builders, 4 miners, 1 digger
9: 13 climbers, 5 builders, 3 miners
10: 2 climbers, 2 floaters, 2 bombers, 1 builder, 2 miners, 2 diggers (17/21)
11: 8 builders
12: 9 builders
13: 9 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
14: 1 climber, 4 builders, 4 bashers, 2 diggers
15: 13 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
16: 1 climber, 8 builders, 2 miners
17: 1 blocker, 7 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger
18: 9 builders, 1 basher, 2 diggers
19: 2 builders, 1 basher
20: 1 climber, 1 floater, 7 bombers, 2 miners (53/60)

Christmas Lemmings

Xmas 91 (first two levels only)
1: 2 builders
2: 3 builders

Xmas 92
1: 1 basher
2: 1 digger
3: 7 builders
4: 1 climber, 9 builders, 3 diggers

Flurry
1-7: none
8: 5 builders, 1 basher
9: none
10: 3 builders
11-12: none
13: 2 builders
14: 1 builder
15: 1 builder
16: 3 builders, 2 bashers (49/50)

Blizzard
1: 3 builders
2: 9 builders
3: 1 digger
4: 1 basher, 1 builder
5: 7 builders
6: none
7: 5 builders, 1 basher
8: 2 builders, 1 basher
9: 11 builders
10: 2 builders
11: 8 builders
12: 1 bomber, 1 digger (79/80)
13: 8 builders
14: none
15: 11 climbers, 3 floaters, 1 bomber, 1 basher (10/15)
16: 1 bomber, 1 builder, 1 basher (48/50)

Frost
1: none
2: none
3: none
4: 1 builder
5: none
6: 1 blocker, 4 builders (69/70)
7: 8 builders
8: none
9: 2 builders
10: 1 builder, 1 basher, 2 diggers
11: 1 builder
12: 3 builders, 2 bashers, 1 digger
13: 1 builder
14: 4 builders, 3 bashers (45/50)
15: 1 builder, 3 bashers
16: 1 floater, 4 builders

Hail
1: 1 climber, 1 floater, 2 builders, 1 basher
2: 4 bombers (76/80)
3: 10 builders
4: 1 builder
5: 8 floaters, 1 blocker, 9 builders, 1 digger
6: none (46/80)
7: 14 builders
8: 5 builders, 1 basher
9: 9 builders, 1 basher
10: 2 builders
11: 3 builders, 2 miners, 1 digger
12: 6 builders
13: 1 builder, 2 bashers, 2 diggers
14: 10 builders
15: 1 basher, 1 digger
16: 10 floaters, 1 builder
« Last Edit: April 13, 2020, 04:54:20 am by Minim »
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Offline Clam

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2011, 09:29:24 pm »
You already mentioned levels where 100% is required, but you can also copy straight over any other levels where the maximum % is the same as the required %. These are:

Tricky 17, 18
Crazy 3, 10
Wicked 16
Blitz 16
Frost 6


Also, as ccexplore mentioned recently, this challenge synergises well with the 'fewest skill types' challenge (which includes the one-skill-type challenge), so I'd suggest that as a reference point. For this challenge in particular, you'll mostly have to look for the 100% tags in the results for that challenge.

Offline Minim

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2011, 10:03:57 pm »
I've listed the results for all the 100% levels and for the extra ones you included. Thanks for telling me that. :)

Anyway, I am going to sleep soon (I don't usually stay up for very long during my night time hours) so that means I'll update any results that anyone posts tomorrow.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #3 on: October 23, 2011, 05:43:48 pm »
Here's a first actual contribution to this topic--Taxing 17.

As I've posted elsewhere, it's possible to achieve 100% with no bashers, using just climbers, builders and miners.  It's fairly straightforward to change that solution into using bashers instead of miners (and dropping the climber in the process), and the 1-builder 100% solution is also not difficult.  Result: 1 builder

Offline Minim

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #4 on: October 23, 2011, 07:34:30 pm »
Here's a first actual contribution to this topic--Taxing 17.

Oops, I forgot to mention myself that I've been working hard on those OhNo levels and have forgot to mention them out loud. I have worked on what I can do in the Crazy and Wild sets, and have made a few results for Wicked too. On Wild 11 I managed to get just 5 builders. I thought that Wicked 1 was impossible to get 98% on, but I realise that that the one-way arrow doesn't work that well. I managed to dig and bash through that without using the climber. So the skills I did for maximum percentage are 1 bomber, 1 basher, 1 miner and 1 digger.

The levels that I can't seem to get 100% on are Crazy 1, Wild 12 and Wild 15 (well, that one requires 96%). On Wild 12, I learned that you can bash a pixel under a blocker to free him, as well as noticing an invisible wall on the far left edge of the screen but the problem is, I constantly run out of builders. Wild 15 is quite hectic even with a low release rate. For Crazy 1, my guess is to cut through the wall with diggers. Am I right? Some advice would be helpful on these three levels.
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Offline Clam

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #5 on: October 23, 2011, 09:11:51 pm »
Hail 7 and 8 (both 100% required) need to be updated with the recent results from the other topic (I was a bit slow updating the scores :-[). These scores are 14 builders for Hail 7, and 5 builders 1 basher for Hail 8.

Also, since this one is of interest to you, here's Mayhem 4 with 4 bashers.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #6 on: October 23, 2011, 09:25:50 pm »
100% on Crazy 1 can be achieved with just blockers and diggers.  You basically need to use diggers to get through the wall and use blockers to stop them.  The blockers are then released by other diggers.  Obviously, one of the diggers must ultimately go all the way down to the steel without blocking, so two of the other diggers are used to make 5-6 pixel steps so the lemmings can step up to the exit.

Wild 12 can be 100%-ed a couple of different ways, because I'm pretty sure that my method differs from the way ccexplore got it back on the old Lemmingswelt forums.  I believe ccexplore's method traps the crowd at the start between a blocker and the left side of the level while the leader bashes underneath the majority of the level.  My method traps the crowd in the pit to the right of the (fake) OWW, and therefore does not require a blocker (it requires just the 9 builders and 3 bashers).  To conserve skills, the final approach to the exit can be done with just 2 builders and a basher, taking advantage of the fact that builders only perform ceiling detection at every other pixel to avoid hitting the hanging icicle.

As for Wild 15, I know that several methods exist for 96%, but I only know one of them.  I think several of us are going to have to get together on this one and figure out what skills all of the methods have in common.  My method requires everything except a blocker and four bombers.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #7 on: October 24, 2011, 02:41:37 am »
Forgot about Fun 23 when I talked about its repeat Taxing 17.  The same solutions apply to Fun 23, except Fun 23 also allows for 100% no-builder solutions (see the "fewest types of skills" thread for examples).  So the result is none.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2011, 03:47:20 am »
Tame 14 and 20 don't require a builder for 100%, so those two are none.

Also, I'm going to go ahead and get a few of the easy and/or obvious results out of the way:

Fun 8: None
Fun 9: None
Fun 10: None
Fun 11: None
Fun 12: None
Fun 14: None
Fun 22: None
Fun 24: None
Fun 25: None
Fun 30: None
Tricky 1: 1 builder
Tricky 3: 1 builder
Tricky 4: 5 builders
Tricky 5: 3 builders
Tricky 6: 2 builders
Tricky 7: 7 builders
Tricky 9: None
Tricky 11: None
Tricky 16: 4 bombers, 1 basher, 1 miner
Taxing 15: None
Taxing 19: 5 bombers

Offline Clam

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2011, 08:02:53 am »
Fun 15 was already done with 2 builders, here. (Now I'm glad I went for 100% on that run, otherwise I'd have to do it again now :P) In the fewest skill types challenge, it was done 100% with builders+bashers and builders+miners, so the result is 2 builders.

Fun 17 can be done with bashers+diggers (the backroute), and builders+miners by building over the traps. Result: none.

Fun 27 appears to require 1 builder in any 100% solution (one glitch-free solution attached). The other skills can be eliminated easily enough - floaters by going over the top, and everything else by building up from the floor.

I did a 100% no-builder run of Fun 29, here,  which is a good start towards a result on that level.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2011, 09:16:30 pm »
As for Wild 15, I know that several methods exist for 96%, but I only know one of them.  I think several of us are going to have to get together on this one and figure out what skills all of the methods have in common.  My method requires everything except a blocker and four bombers.

Here's one improvement for now, a 1-bomber 96% solution.  I've looked through other solutions and so far I haven't succeeded in any improvements yet, though there might be a slight possibility of using 1 less basher, and I'm also wondering about 1 less blocker.

Offline Clam

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2011, 09:51:27 pm »
I did a 100% no-builder run of Fun 29, here,  which is a good start towards a result on that level.

... or I could just refer to the 'fewest skill types' challenge, like I said :P. It's been done 100% with builders+miners and builders+diggers, in addition to my no-builders solution. So the result for Fun 29 is none.

Fun 19 was done 100% with 2 builders by geoo, here. It's also possible with builders only, so the result is just 2 builders.

Fun 21 is easily done with no builders using the Tame 20 trick, and also builders+bashers and builders+miners. Result: none.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #12 on: October 25, 2011, 12:35:21 am »
Wild 12 can be 100%-ed a couple of different ways, because I'm pretty sure that my method differs from the way ccexplore got it back on the old Lemmingswelt forums.  I believe ccexplore's method traps the crowd at the start between a blocker and the left side of the level while the leader bashes underneath the majority of the level.

Yep, I tried it out and it's a 7-builder solution.  I'm not really seeing much other room for improvement, so I'm really thinking the final result would be 7 builders, 3 bashers.

Aside: note that the fakeness of the one-way wall in Wild 12 doesn't work in Lemmix due to a known bug in Lemmix (ie. the same one that affects, eg., the "check your hints" Xmas level that was supposed to only have 1 working exit out of 13).  Get the same effect in Lemmix by deleting both of the OWW objects.

Offline finlay

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #13 on: October 25, 2011, 02:46:33 am »
What is the Tame 20 trick? I think I know, but I've never actually seen that level performed without builders.

EDIT: I have nabbed your techniques for completing Taxing 17 and applied them to Tame 14 for a (very haphazard) no-builders 100% solution. I'm not as good at you guys for doing the harder levels, though. I mean half the stuff you do I just look at and go 'wtf??' :P It's a Tame level, yeah, but it's a result I guess, compared to the list in the OP.

Offline Clam

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2011, 03:05:42 am »
Aside: note that the fakeness of the one-way wall in Wild 12 doesn't work in Lemmix due to a known bug in Lemmix (ie. the same one that affects, eg., the "check your hints" Xmas level that was supposed to only have 1 working exit out of 13).  Get the same effect in Lemmix by deleting both of the OWW objects.

The one-way wall is actually fake? I thought it was just poorly placed so you could bash under it. This is what I get for using Lemmix exclusively :XD:


What is the Tame 20 trick? I think I know, but I've never actually seen that level performed without builders.

It's a combination of two glitches: blocking lemmings into walls, and climbing when stuck in walls. You force a lemming into a wall using a blocker, remove the blocker without destroying the wall, and assign climber to the stuck lemming so it climbs up through the wall. When the climber reaches the top, you can then use diggers/miners/bashers to make a ramp for the other lemmings.

Offline finlay

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #15 on: October 25, 2011, 03:17:37 am »
Do you have a replay of it?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2011, 03:27:48 am »
The 100% no-builder Tame 20 solution was posted somewhere here, back in the days of the old forums (eg. Cheapo was actually still popular at that time, so yeah, ancient history :XD: :-\ ;)).

Offline finlay

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2011, 04:00:20 am »
ah. I always have trouble if I attempt to make one of those steep digger-staircases because I can't tell when the basher has actually advanced far enough to make him dig again.

Offline Clam

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #18 on: October 25, 2011, 04:29:10 am »
The 100% no-builder Tame 20 solution was posted somewhere here, back in the days of the old forums (eg. Cheapo was actually still popular at that time, so yeah, ancient history :XD: :-\ ;)).

I'm going a bit off-topic here, but whenever I try downloading files from that site, I end up with a file called 'index.php'. Renaming the file doesn't help (at least for the Tame 20 replay). Any idea what's going on here?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #19 on: October 25, 2011, 04:38:26 am »
I'm going a bit off-topic here, but whenever I try downloading files from that site, I end up with a file called 'index.php'. Renaming the file doesn't help (at least for the Tame 20 replay). Any idea what's going on here?

Hmm, odd, didn't notice this before. ??? :o

Anyway, some of the files are ZIP files while other ones are plain uncompressed LRB replay files.  You probably just need to rename with the correct file extension (looks like Tame 20 is zipped).  Actually on my browser (IE8) it always get the file extension correct, just the filename always becomes "index".

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2011, 06:36:43 am »
Back on topic, here are some improvements for Crazy:

Crazy 1: 4 Blockers + 4 Diggers
Crazy 8: 4 Builders + 2 Bashers (I wouldn't rule out 1 basher, though)
Crazy 12: 2 Builders + 4 Bashers
Crazy 15: 3 Builders + 1 Digger (the min-skills solution is good for 100%)
Crazy 19: 5 Builders + 1 Basher + 1 Digger
Crazy 20: 14 Builders + 1 Basher (I'm pretty sure the builders can be reduced further, but I don't feel like messing with it right now.)

Also, You need 4 builders for Wild 5, which is not noted on the result for that level.

Quote from: Hints
Crazy 8 4 Builders: 2 builders are used to get over the water and 2 more are used to get up to the exit.  If you start the final basher in the right place, you won't need a builder to stop him (ccexplore's basher planning tutorial helps a bunch here).
Crazy 12 2 Builders: Start your first basher as far left as possible and set the RR to 99.  As soon as the basher breaks through, place a blocker at the extreme edge, which should be raised one pixel due to the basher's stroke.  One lemming must go past to clear the rest of the route, and the original basher (who takes one more stroke because he is on an even number) will bounce off the blocker.  When the route is clear, bash away the pixel the blocker is standing on.
Crazy 19 5 Builders: Take the ceiling route, using the release rate for crowd control.

Offline Simon

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #21 on: October 25, 2011, 10:21:23 am »
I'm going a bit off-topic here, but whenever I try downloading files from that site, I end up with a file called 'index.php'. Renaming the file doesn't help (at least for the Tame 20 replay). Any idea what's going on here?

Open the file with a text editor. If it contains actual PHP code, then the problem is server-side. (The webserver doesn't run the PHP interpreter on it before serving the file.) Tell the webmaster in this case.

-- Simon

Offline finlay

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #22 on: October 25, 2011, 12:47:03 pm »
The 100% no-builder Tame 20 solution was posted somewhere here, back in the days of the old forums (eg. Cheapo was actually still popular at that time, so yeah, ancient history :XD: :-\ ;)).
Also in that case it should also say "none" in the OP.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #23 on: October 25, 2011, 08:54:17 pm »
Wild 12 is updated incorrectly in the OP, there is no need for the blocker as LemSteven's 100% solution doesn't use any.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #24 on: October 26, 2011, 03:18:58 am »
I just did a preliminary run through Wild and came up with the following improvements:

Wild 1: 2 builders + 1 miner.
I found a way to get down to the "room" directly above the exit using a basher.  From there, you just need one miner to exit via direct drop.

Wild 2: 5 builders.  This is straight off of the "skills you can't live without" thread.  There are plenty of other skills available to get it up to 100%.

Wild 3: 6 builders.  Again, this is the same score as in the "skills you can't live without" thread.  Diggers are avoided due to the fortuitous placement of the chains on to the left of the entrance.  Miners are pretty easy to avoid, and you don't need any extra builders for crowd control.

Wild 11: 4 builders.  The min-skills route only requires 4 builders, and it can easily be adapted for 100% by adding a floater to save the climber.

Wild 13: 2 climbers + 2 bombers + 2 builders + 2 bashers + 1 miner.  You don't need a blocker/bomber to hold back the crowd if you're smart with the release rate.

Wild 18: 2 bombers + 10 builders.  Three builders are used to restrain the crowd, one is used to release the crowd, and six are used to clear the route.

Wild 20: 3 builders + 1 digger.  If the digger is placed properly, you'll only need to use one builder as a delay.  You also don't need to use a builder to stop the digger.

Offline Clam

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #25 on: October 26, 2011, 10:04:44 am »
Crazy 12: 2 Builders + 4 Bashers

Possible with 3 bashers:

Quote from: Hints
Set the RR to 86, so the lemmings merge in the hole. When the 78th lemming enters, change the RR to 99. Assign basher to the last lemming as it turns. The merged crowd turns around just before the basher breaks through, giving you enough time to complete the path.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #26 on: October 26, 2011, 02:59:36 pm »
Fun28: 7 builders

As I explained about a year ago here, you can get to the exit sans blockers with 6 builders.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #27 on: October 26, 2011, 08:36:03 pm »
Quote
[Tricky] 12: 3 floaters, 1 builder

By using the miner trick to turn the first lemming around quickly, this can be done with 2 floaters, attached replay showing the start (the rest of the level is easy). There's also a no-builder solution floating around somewhere, though I don't recall whether it saves 100%.


Quote
[Tricky] 13: 8 builders

I'm able to match the 'skills you can't live without' score of 3 builders, replay attached.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #28 on: October 26, 2011, 11:52:50 pm »
For Taxing 22 (repeat of Fun 27), I've already established in the "fewest type of skills" thread 100% solutions for builders+floaters and builders+diggers, so it's down to number of builders.  And it's possible to achieve 100% on that level too using no more than 1 builder (glitch-free even), see attached.  Final result: 1 builder.

=============

[Tricky 12]By using the miner trick to turn the first lemming around quickly, this can be done with 2 floaters, attached replay showing the start (the rest of the level is easy). There's also a no-builder solution floating around somewhere, though I don't recall whether it saves 100%.

It was from namida but unfortunately he didn't bother with 100%.  Fortunately it's not too hard to modify just the end parts of his no-builder solution to save 100%, saving me the trouble of most of the skill assignments. ;P

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2011, 01:01:16 pm »
You know this is coming sooner or later, so here we go:  Fun 16 100% with 4 builders. ;)  I believe this completely wraps up Fun.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2011, 09:22:25 pm »
Disregarding the above comment, here's Fun 20 100% with 1 builder.

Also, Fun 19 is incorrectly listed as 'none', it should be 2 builders.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2011, 10:15:07 pm »
Disregarding the above comment, here's Fun 20 100% with 1 builder.
Oops, completely forgot about that level.  Well works out anyway, with you doing it saving me time. ;P

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #32 on: October 28, 2011, 04:28:18 am »
Following on from this result over here, Fun 28 is improved to 5 builders for 100%.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #33 on: October 28, 2011, 10:47:40 am »
That is immaculate! Using the pillar on the left. I never thought of doing that before... :XD:

Anyway, I nearly got all the way through the Hail set, (There were only 5 to do) but there's one level that I can't seem to get 100% on, and that's Hail 5: Get the Point?. I know that you have 10 builders and I also know about giving three builders to make one turn around and do a safety bridge, but I always run out of builders. In my mind you need 4 to reach the exit, and possibly another 4 to free the others (when on the spike, that is) without using a blocker, or maybe the blocker needs to be used so that it can be freed by digging onto it.

The others aren't too bad:
2: 2 blockers, 4 bombers
3: 10 builders (although I am almost certain that 9 is possible too)
4: 4 builders (Can't seem to get back over the steel block on this one, bashing in between the steel blocks doesn't work)
6: 1 blocker
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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #34 on: October 28, 2011, 12:51:05 pm »
Is there a specific method to save the maximum on hail 6?

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #35 on: October 28, 2011, 01:03:26 pm »
I think so, but it's hard to explain. There is a replay shown somewhere in the Maximum percentage saved thread. There's a lot of (I love this word whoever came up with it) release-rate jiggery-pokery to start with. Then a blocker is put slightly to the left of the platform. The rate is increased when about 50 lemmings come out. The last few lemmings should fall on the left side of the blocker and not the right so that when the nuke is applied the last few lemmings will have more time to reach the exit together no matter which direction they land.
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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #36 on: October 28, 2011, 08:55:25 pm »
there's one level that I can't seem to get 100% on, and that's Hail 5: Get the Point?. I know that you have 10 builders and I also know about giving three builders to make one turn around and do a safety bridge, but I always run out of builders. In my mind you need 4 to reach the exit, and possibly another 4 to free the others (when on the spike, that is) without using a blocker, or maybe the blocker needs to be used so that it can be freed by digging onto it.

There's one key move to the 100% solution:
Quote
Turn the lemming that builds under the entrance, by making a lemming block on the bridge as soon as it lands from the entrance.

Here's a replay that isn't optimised at all, but shows 100% can be achieved.


Is there a specific method to save the maximum on hail 6?

ccexplore worked out the maximum percentage here, and later on improved the solution to work without the blocker.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #37 on: October 29, 2011, 01:17:14 am »
I ran through some Tricky levels and came up with a few improvements:

Tricky 10: 4 builders
Tricky 14: 7 builders (It may be possible to reduce this further using glitches.)
Tricky 20: None
Tricky 24: 2 builders + 1 blocker

I'm pretty sure 27 and 30 can also be improved, but I'm taking a break for now so I can watch Game 7 of the World Series.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #38 on: October 30, 2011, 10:15:06 am »
result from "fewest types of skills" thread shows Frost 3 needs none for 100%.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #39 on: October 30, 2011, 01:17:34 pm »
Tricky 28 100% using no more than 1 builder.

Also here's Tricky 25 100% with 8 builders via something rather simple with the start.  No luck getting rid of the digger though (1 skill short!).

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #40 on: October 30, 2011, 03:47:38 pm »
Tricky 28 100% using no more than 1 builder.

LOL! I have never seen such a small stair at the end of the solution.

Anyway. I have made an improvement on Xmas 91 level 1 cutting it down to 2 builders by taking the ceiling route. I tried so hard to bring it down to 1 but it looks like the direct drop trick wouldn't work.

Apart from that. I've made some results for Havoc. Some of them do look quite bad, especially 7 and 17. I need particular help on 10 and 16 though.

1: 6 builders
2: 1 climber, 1 floater, 11 builders, 2 diggers
7: 1 climbers, 2 floaters, 1 blocker, 10 builders, 2 bashers, 2 miners, 2 diggers. (Without 100%, you would only need 4 builders for any solution)
8: 1 climber, 5 builders, 4 miners, 1 digger
13: 10 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner
15: 17 builders, 1 basher, 1 digger
17: 1 blocker, 7 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger
18: 11 builders, 1 basher, 3 diggers
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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #41 on: October 30, 2011, 08:23:28 pm »
Unless someone has found a better solution, Havoc 16 requires 1 Climber, 8 Builders, and 2 miners.


Also, improvements are possible on Tricky 27 and 30, as I suspected.  The diggers are avoidable on 27, so all that's left are builders, and I've got those down to 2.

For Tricky 30, Builders can be avoided because Climbers+Miners is good for 100% in the fewest different skills thread, so all that's left are miners.  I've managed to get it down to 2 miners, although be warned that it can be considered challenge-worthy due to the shortage of builders.

Quote from: General idea of the Tricky 30 2-miner solution
The first obstacle is ascended with three builders, and then a digger + builder is used to split the fall on the other side.  Ideally, the other two identical obstacles would be handled the same way, saving the miners to create the passageways from the lower platforms to the upper platforms.  Unfortunately, this would require 12 builders, and you only have 10.

To compensate, the two remaining pillars must be ascended with just two builders apiece instead of three.  However two builders alone do not gain enough height to ascend the pillars, so you need to send climbers up to mine away the top corner of each pillar.  The miners continue down the bridges and ultimately clear a path for the lemmings on the lower platforms.

That's the general idea, but there are a couple of other complications that make things difficult (including the time limit).

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #42 on: November 01, 2011, 12:59:20 am »
OK, this challenge is similar to the skills you can't live without thread, with one slightly more difficult twist: You are now trying to save 100% (Or if that level is not possible, the maximum percentage known to be solved). I would be interested to see the results of Mayhem 4 and Havoc 10.

Some levels do require 100%. We can leave those out while we solve each non-100% level. The box below shows the list of levels where 100% is impossible.

Quote from: List of levels where 100% is impossible
If a level is not on this list, it's possible to achieve 100% on, and thus 100% is the requirement for a solution to qualify in this challenge. If it's on the list, the required % is listed.

Orig              OhNo             Holiday
Fun 3: 47/50      Crazy 3: 48/50   Flurry 16: 49/50
Fun 6: 48/50      Crazy 10: 79/80  Blitz 12: 79/80
Fun 18: 65/70     Crazy 11: 40/80  Blitz 15: 10/15
Tricky 15: 7/10   Crazy 14: 48/50  Blitz 16: 48/50
Tricky 16: 46/50  Wild 5: 77/80    Frost 6: 69/70
Tricky 17: 48/50  Wild 13: 77/80   Frost 14: 45/50
Tricky 18: 9/10   Wild 15: 48/50   Hail 2: 76/80
Tricky 23: 79/80  Wild 18: 78/80   Hail 6: 46/80
Taxing 7: 79/80   Wicked 1: 59/60
Taxing 19: 65/70  Wicked 4: 49/50
Taxing 27: 77/80  Wicked 7: 76/80
Taxing 28: 70/80  Wicked 8: 46/50
Mayhem 5: 76/80   Wicked 10: 49/50
Mayhem 10: 73/75  Wicked 12: 79/80
Mayhem 19: 47/50  Wicked 15: 48/50
Mayhem 26: 76/80  Wicked 16: 5/6
Mayhem 29: 78/80  Havoc 10: 17/21
                  Havoc 20: 53/60
Where can I get details of these results?  Some seem too high, and some seem forgotten.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #43 on: November 01, 2011, 01:31:46 am »
Where can I get details of these results?  Some seem too high, and some seem forgotten.

I'm pretty sure the list is quite accurate.  Omitted levels really do mean 100%, even those that you think are impossible.

I suggest you give us a list of the results that are boggling your mind, and download Lemmix or LemmixPlayer so you can see replays for each of them. ;)  Also remember that this is specifically for the PC version, as challenge solutions tend to be slightly less portable from version to version.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #44 on: November 01, 2011, 02:43:11 am »
Are these from the "cracked" version, where the borderline falls are higher?  I ask because 100% in Taxing 6 should not be possible.  At least, I don't think it should be; the "We all fall down" series is made effortless when it was originally painful, which, I guess, it should be.

I have no time now, but later I might download Lemmix.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #45 on: November 01, 2011, 03:54:04 am »
Nope, they are all done with the original DOS version mechanics. For Taxing 6, there is a way to reduce the distance of the fall on the right so the lemmings can survive.

We really ought to have an organised database of challenge replays, especially for things like max % and least skills :-\

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #46 on: November 01, 2011, 06:11:30 pm »
@DoubleU: you may find the following helpful

setting up Lemmix
Glitches in Lemmings
Non-glitch tricks

The latter two threads should contain most if not all of the tricks and moves that are used to push the save % to what you see in the table.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #47 on: November 01, 2011, 11:04:18 pm »
Nope, they are all done with the original DOS version mechanics. For Taxing 6, there is a way to reduce the distance of the fall on the right so the lemmings can survive.

We really ought to have an organised database of challenge replays, especially for things like max % and least skills :-\
I'd quite like to see taxing 6 too, because while i know about the trick to bash through the top of the steel, I can't think of how not to have the lemmings falling off the left edge of the block that they start on...

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #48 on: November 02, 2011, 12:45:56 am »
Interesting, I guess there wasn't really a replay posted anywhere because LemSteven first did that one and he doesn't use Lemmix.  Well, here goes.

[edit: added a slightly more efficient replay than the one I posted earlier, same idea]

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #49 on: November 02, 2011, 02:11:33 am »
And here's the Taxing 6 result for this challenge: 1 digger + 3 bashers

Also, I've removed a basher from Taxing 5 by using diggers in one of the places you would normally bash.  It turns out three diggers is just enough to break through the bars.  The hard part is not running out of builders in the process.  Anyway, this brings Taxing 5 down to 6 builders + 1 Basher.

I believe Taxing 7 comes down to 1 climber + 1 bomber + 5 builders + 1 basher.

Offline finlay

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #50 on: November 02, 2011, 02:25:59 am »
6 builders?

also, you'll have to explain that taxing 7 one to me – how can you get rid of the blocker, and why do you then have to use a bomber? (edit; actually, wait, figured it out. but still don't get how you get rid of a builder in that case...)

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #51 on: November 02, 2011, 07:47:06 am »
It isn't too hard once you know your glitches. ;)

Quote from: spoiler
A bomber is set just before the top of the hill. If the timing is right a crater should be made and some steel should blow up without him actually landing on it. The lemmings can be freed by bashing into the crater. That way he'll continuously bash through the steel and underneath the one-way obstacle.

Looks like that method will save your builder.

Anyway, thanks for the help on Taxing 6. I also can't do 100% on Mayhem 2. There are no Terrain-removing skills other than bombers. The only thing you could do to get through the flamer trap was to climb up the steel.
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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2011, 11:37:00 am »
Mayhem 2 was a relatively recent addition, if I remember correctly, and possibly involved the long-slider bug.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #53 on: November 03, 2011, 02:44:21 am »
6 builders?

I really should let LemSteven explain his own results, but since he doesn't do Lemmix, I guess I'm justified to put up a Lemmix replay anyway. ;)

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2011, 04:03:41 am »
^ Actually, the 6-builder result wasn't mine -- Minimac already had 6 Builders + 2 Bashers on the list before I made that post.  The only thing I did was reduce the bashers to one.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2011, 12:22:21 pm »
I see.  Well, here's reducing it to 5 builders, no glitches.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2011, 05:57:23 am »
Taxing 12 is improved to 2 builders using the ceiling route.  The Tame 20 glitch is used to get a lemming up there, and he can later dig a tunnel for the others to climb up.

As for Taxing 13, I'm going to go ahead and suggest 1 climber, 1 builder, 2 bashers, and 3 miners as a starting point.  There may still be room for improvement, but so far I haven't had any luck.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2011, 10:08:32 am »
As for Taxing 13, I'm going to go ahead and suggest 1 climber, 1 builder, 2 bashers, and 3 miners as a starting point.  There may still be room for improvement, but so far I haven't had any luck.
Okay, let's start by getting rid of the climber as previously demonstrated.

[edit: miners down to 2]

Offline finlay

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2011, 05:53:29 pm »
Havoc 10: how do you save 17?

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #59 on: November 04, 2011, 08:38:35 pm »
It uses the miner positioning glitch such that the crowd can be trapped and released.  I'm pretty sure the replay had been posted here.  You should bookmark that page.

Sidenote: this is one of few results I've actually verified on Mac Lemmings.  Although on the Mac, if I recall, some subtle differences with the terrain removal mask for miner means the 17/21 solution needs to be modified slightly to work.

[edit: on that note, minimac, please use the replay to start off the results here for Havoc 10, since you brought that up on the OP.  It well may be the final result for that level.]

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #60 on: November 04, 2011, 08:55:52 pm »
Both my and alfonz1986's 100% Wicked 9 solutions use all 20 builders and the floater, and we both worked really hard just to squeeze out the 100%, so this is likely the final result for that level.  Certainly a good place to start off for that level.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #61 on: November 05, 2011, 01:19:11 am »
It uses the miner positioning glitch such that the crowd can be trapped and released.  I'm pretty sure the replay had been posted here.  You should bookmark that page.

Sidenote: this is one of few results I've actually verified on Mac Lemmings.  Although on the Mac, if I recall, some subtle differences with the terrain removal mask for miner means the 17/21 solution needs to be modified slightly to work.
I knew that this glitch was possible on the Mac, but I've no idea how to sort of activate it. Is it something to do with the bomber in this case...? if so, it might be something slightly different in that case – certainly on the Mac you can get it to kinda drop through a one-pixel gap on its own sometimes if you assign it in the right place.


Also... climberless Havoc 4 solution??  ??? :o

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #62 on: November 05, 2011, 02:13:22 am »
^ Havoc 4 involves the "floor route", in which you bash underneath the majority of the level.



Taxing 4 with builders and miners for 100% was done in the fewest different skills thread, so no bashers or diggers are needed.  Miners can easily be eliminated by using the same solution and substituting bashers and diggers for the miners.  Finally, I've currently got builders down to 10 by bashing out to the right and building up, so the result is 10 builders.

Note that the 1-builder solution in the skills you can't live without thread doesn't work here because you can't save everyone with the sliding glitch.  It is possible to send up one lemming with the sliding glitch and have him mine down to help the others, but that also ends up using quite a few builders, so I'm not sure it will help improve the result any.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #63 on: November 05, 2011, 07:30:56 am »
It uses the miner positioning glitch such that the crowd can be trapped and released.  I'm pretty sure the replay had been posted here.  You should bookmark that page.

Sidenote: this is one of few results I've actually verified on Mac Lemmings.  Although on the Mac, if I recall, some subtle differences with the terrain removal mask for miner means the 17/21 solution needs to be modified slightly to work.
I knew that this glitch was possible on the Mac, but I've no idea how to sort of activate it. Is it something to do with the bomber in this case...? if so, it might be something slightly different in that case – certainly on the Mac you can get it to kinda drop through a one-pixel gap on its own sometimes if you assign it in the right place.
The glitch thread should have a reasonably good explanation for the miner glitch, and yes, the bomber is involved in the miner-glitch usage with the PC's 17/21 solution:

Quote from: spoiler
The miner's explosion countdown reaches 0 just when the miner positioning glitch places it, just before he starts mining through, below the bottommost row of pixels, so that he's actually standing on thin air when he starts "oh no".  And since oh-no-ers fall, he never gets a chance to explode, and you have your crowd trapped.
But actually, I have to rework the 17/21 solution a little for the Mac, using a move that doesn't work on the PC version:

Quote from: spoiler
Because of subtle differences in the miner's terrain removal, the PC solution would've lost one more lemming on the Mac, due to that lemming being able to get out from the end of an in-progress miner tunnel.  I don't remember the details off top of my head, but basically it forced me to rework the solution to use the bomber for some other purpose.  So I make use of the miner positioning glitch by assigning digger to the miner at the same time the PC version's  trick kicks in, for same effect (ie. miner falls through w/o breaking through the terrain).  It doesn't work on the PC version because the 1st-time dig also takes out 2 additional rows of pixels above the expected 1 row below the lemming, whereas on the Mac version even the 1st dig takes out only 1 row of pixels (which is nothing in this case because the miner is already positioned to be standing on thin air).

Also... climberless Havoc 4 solution??  ??? :o
That's another one of those "simple solutions made possible by release rate jiggering" solutions.  Paving the path is as simple as dig, bash, build.  And the technique to work out how to make sure everyone exits in time is fairly similar to what I did for the min-skills solution for "Just a Minute".  This post describes my technique for working out the release rate jiggering with help of Lemmix's text versions of replays.

You should be able to find a replay for Havoc 4 somewhere on the min-skills challenge thread if you want the exact details of the RR changes.

Offline Minim

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #64 on: November 05, 2011, 08:58:08 am »
It uses the miner positioning glitch such that the crowd can be trapped and released.  I'm pretty sure the replay had been posted here.  You should bookmark that page.

[edit: on that note, minimac, please use the replay to start off the results here for Havoc 10, since you brought that up on the OP.  It well may be the final result for that level.]

I am trying to, but whenever I click on a link, the download comes up as index.php and I don't know how to sort that out.

Anyway, back on topic. I solved Mayhem 18 100% using only 15 builders. If there are any improvements please let me know.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #65 on: November 05, 2011, 10:54:24 am »
I am trying to, but whenever I click on a link, the download comes up as index.php and I don't know how to sort that out.

Hmm, works for me on IE.  Note that it's a zip file.  Here's a direct link from the site:

http://www6.camanis.net.ipv4.sixxs.org/lemmings/lemmingswelt/index.php?cmd=get&file=challenge_replays/havoc10_save17.zip

When your browser asks you to save the file, try to find a dropdown labeled "save as type", and then select either "compressed (zipped) folder" if available, or select "all files" and then make sure to end your filename with .zip (including the dot).  If that still doesn't work then I'm out of ideas for now.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2011, 10:38:20 pm »
I've verified that Taxing 14 comes down to 17 builders, the same as in the skills you can't live without thread.

Also, Taxing 18 can be reduced to 11 builders.

Quote from: Spoilers
Taxing 14: The crowd is held in by digging at a pixel-precise location and then making the digger block as soon as the left side of his hole is seven pixels high.  The crowd gets stuck at the left edge of the hole and can be freed with a single miner.  The rest of the level is the same as the min-skills solution, using 17 builders and 2 bashers.

Taxing 18: Build a stairway with six builders such that the last brick laid provides a six pixel high step onto the OWW.  The first lemming to go up there builds immediately so that the crowd can't follow him (some release rate jiggery-pokery is useful to make sure this lemming doesn't have anyone immediately behind him).  Now float down to the right side, build 2x over the exit, build up to the OWW to break the fall, and bash to get to the exit.  Finally, build one more time to release the crowd.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2011, 09:33:33 pm »
Due to all the recent references to the old collection of challenge replays, I just noticed that for Crazy 1, Shvegait posted a 100% solution that only uses 3 blockers rather than 4.  I've re-attached the replay here because some people were complaining about the site not downloading correctly for them (but I'm hoping this has been resolved for everyone now?).

Offline finlay

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2011, 01:31:53 am »
It always downloads as "index.php", but as long as I change the suffix appropriately to either .zip or .lrb then it works.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2011, 05:55:45 am »
Also, Taxing 18 can be reduced to 11 builders.

Improving on LemSteven's method to 10 builders.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2011, 07:05:04 am »
Quote
[Taxing] 25: 5 builders, 2 bashers

This can be done (just) with 1 basher, by walling at the left (thanks to the shape of the terrain, this takes 2 builders, not 3 as usual), and bashing through one of the 'humps' to stall the crowd.


I did Taxing 26 with 5 builders over here. A 100% builders+miners solution exists, and it's easily doable with no miners, so as before the result is 5 builders.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2011, 03:45:07 pm »
For Taxing 27 lose 3, so far I have a no-bomber solution using 2 blockers, and another solution using no more than 7 builders.  So let's start with 2 blockers, 7 builders and see where we go from there.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #72 on: November 08, 2011, 07:13:39 pm »
Goodness... I never thought of taking the outside route before. Great job capitalizing on that. 8)

OK, I have done a few Blitz levels:

5: 7 builders
7: 5 builders, 1 basher
12: 1 bomber, 1 digger
15: 11 climbers, 4 floaters, 1 bomber, 1 basher

Taking a lot of precise moves, I've attached a replay for the 5 builder Blitz 7 solution. Getting to do it in 1 basher is almost the same solution, but a lemming will need to bash left when at peak, and be immediately turned into a builder to create a step. Another builder is required as well.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #73 on: November 08, 2011, 09:33:04 pm »
Goodness... I never thought of taking the outside route before. Great job capitalizing on that. 8)

Credit goes to LemSteven for the general outside route, I believe he was the first to report it here back in the old old forums. 8)

And finally I got the 1-blocker solution working for Taxing 27 77/80, so that's down to 1 blocker, 7 builders.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #74 on: November 08, 2011, 11:37:11 pm »
Taxing 29:

100% climbers+builders+miners was done in the fewest types challenge. Attached are replays for no climbers, 1 builder, and no miners, all with 100%. Result: 1 builder.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2011, 05:05:47 am »
This one took me all evening to figure out and execute correctly, but I have verified 2 builders for Mayhem 17.  This one warrants a detailed explanation because of the extreme pixel-precision required in a number of places.

Quote from: Spoiler
The first lemming mines, and the second lemming blocks such that he is freed by the miner's 6th stroke.  The freed blocker turns around, digs to stop the miner, and then bashes immediately.  If done correctly, both the basher and miner should stop.

The next step is to set up the Tame 20 glitch at the left wall.  One lemming blocks such that another lemming gets pushed in the wall.  The blocker must be placed as far to the right as possible, because he must be freed using just a digger and a basher, and the basher must stop after his first stroke.  Once the blocker is freed, the lemming stuck in the wall climbs (the skill must be assigned while the lemming is facing right, otherwise the Tame 20 glitch won't work properly).

As soon as the climber is above the bottom of the ceiling, he mines left and then digs after taking one stroke.  When the right side of the digger's hole is six pixels high, make him bash.  He takes one swipe and then digs again two pixels to the left of the previous digger.  This digger goes down six pixels and then bashes again.  Now dig one more time, such that the digger just barely takes out the left edge of the wall.

The last digger keeps going until he is twelve pixels above the floor that the crowd is walking on, at which point he builds.  This builder runs into the pillar on the left and mines the instant he turns around.  The miner goes back down the bridge and through the wall, emerging just low enough such that the crowd can just barely step up into his tunnel.  The other builder is used at the very top of the first bridge; this one should use all twelve bricks.

The second bridge ends up one pixel too low for the crowd to continue their way up the steps, but fortunately the climber can get up there and mine from the bottom step, lowering the edge by a pixel and allowing the crowd to step up.  The rest is easy -- just bash through the ceiling and mine to the exit.

Offline Clam

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2011, 09:37:41 am »
Great job finding that LemSteven :thumbsup:

For anyone who has Lemmix, here's a replay based on the above description.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2011, 09:59:00 am »
Great job to both of you, finding out the 2-builder solution and executing it. :thumbsup:

I have done some Flurry levels, except for 7, 10 and 12. I have confirmed that levels 1-6, 9 and 11 are none, and that 16 can be done with 4 builders. Had no luck without using all three bashers though. If anyone wants to see the no basher level 9 solution or the 4-builder level 16 solution please let me know, as I have replays for those in my folder.
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Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2011, 02:50:54 pm »
I got 1 floater, 16 builders for Taxing 16 100%.  I need at least 5 builders to contain the crowd, 1 to release them at the end, 4 for the first drop, and 6 for the second drop.  While in other setups you could do just 3 for the first drop (if the crowd-trapping structure reaches far enough to the right to save you one builder that way), it's just out of reach for my 5-builder crowd containment setup.

I've attached the 16-builder solution which uses more than 1 floater, and separately, the start (as the rest is trivial) of the 1 floater solution using the RR89 builder-stacking method.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2011, 09:14:51 pm »
I have done some Flurry levels, except for 7, 10 and 12. I have confirmed that levels 1-6, 9 and 11 are none, and that 16 can be done with 4 builders. Had no luck without using all three bashers though. If anyone wants to see the no basher level 9 solution or the 4-builder level 16 solution please let me know, as I have replays for those in my folder.

I just had a go at Flurry 16, and improved it to 3 builders, 2 bashers. Both take a lot of retries and adjustment to get right :XD: (thankfully Lemmix makes this much less painful :))

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #80 on: November 12, 2011, 12:36:52 pm »
Note that the 1-builder solution in the skills you can't live without thread doesn't work here because you can't save everyone with the sliding glitch.  It is possible to send up one lemming with the sliding glitch and have him mine down to help the others, but that also ends up using quite a few builders, so I'm not sure it will help improve the result any.

Turns out it does, but just barely.  So down to 9 builders now for Taxing 4.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #81 on: November 14, 2011, 05:54:56 am »
Mayhem 1 only requires one floater because the initial fall can be made survivable by having the first lemming build as soon as he hits the floor.  The digger is also avoidable without much trouble.  I've got builders down to 24, so the result is 1 floater + 24 builders.

Mayhem 8 has Builders+Diggers for 100% in the fewest different skills thread.  Due to the lack of bashers, I'm not finding a way to deal with the crowd without using at least one builder, plus three more are needed to reach the OWW.  It also looks like one digger is needed at the OWW, so the result is 4 builders and 1 digger.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #82 on: November 14, 2011, 08:33:10 am »
Good work, but both can be improved by one builder:

Mayhem 1 can be done with 23 builders (+ 1 floater). I've included a screenshot to show where all the builders are placed, as well as a replay.

I've also improved Mayhem 8 to 3 builders (+ 1 digger), by taking advantage of some walker physics. In the attached screenshot, there's no terrain at the digger's position, so if you turn it into a blocker, it becomes a walker. Then, thanks to the quirky walker physics, it advances forwards instead of falling through the hole. Getting to this position in the first place isn't trivial, but hopefully the screenshot gives you enough of a clue.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #83 on: November 14, 2011, 02:46:45 pm »
Tricky 14 100% improved to 5 builders.

----------

I have no luck so far coming up with any other way to handle Taxing 28 lose 10 besides the originally reported solution, so looks like the result for that level is 1 climber, 1 floater, 1 bomber, 1 blocker, 8 builders, 3 bashers, 1 miner.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #84 on: November 16, 2011, 12:10:42 pm »
I've finally managed Mayhem 2 100% with only builders (attached).  The minimum number of builders should be the same solution, except for using a climber at the end for the stuck lemming instead (assign so that he first climbs facing right).  Therefore the final result is 17 builders.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #85 on: November 16, 2011, 09:28:24 pm »
Here's a rather basic attempt at Mayhem 14, using 16 builders. I can't see any sort of 'underwater' solution working for 100%, since there are no climbers (needed to save lemmings left behind after sliding), only 10 blockers for steel-cancelling, and of course bombers aren't allowed.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #86 on: November 17, 2011, 07:33:11 am »
Anyway, back on topic. I solved Mayhem 18 100% using only 15 builders. If there are any improvements please let me know.

Due to the blocker cancelling steel glitch, the blocker on the top left doesn't have to be placed on a bridge, which saves a builder.  This brings the total for Mayhem 18 down to 14 builders.

If minimac already took advantage of this, then I'm not sure where he used an extra builder.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #87 on: November 19, 2011, 03:23:20 am »
Mayhem 7 100% current result can be reduced by 1 for each of the four skill types, resulting in 5 builders, 3 bashers, 3 diggers.

(attached solutions that need the climber.  See here and here for climberless solutions)

[edit: decide to post a climberless solution anyway, since a different one exists, unlike the ones linked to that use direct drop (however impressive those are)]

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #88 on: November 19, 2011, 01:09:32 pm »
I've finally managed Mayhem 2 100% with only builders (attached).  The minimum number of builders should be the same solution, except for using a climber at the end

Found further refinements for minimum builders, so down to 15 builders now for that level.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #89 on: November 20, 2011, 09:13:11 pm »
Some more Mayhem improvements:

Mayhem 9: Builders are reduced to 7, and bashers are currently down to 4.  The result is therefore down to 7 builders, 4 bashers, and 1 digger, although I wouldn't yet rule out further improvements.

Mayhem 19: I got this down to 7 builders and 3 bombers, the same as in the skills you can't live without thread.

Mayhem 23: I was able to eliminate a builder at the start, so it's down to 12 builders and 1 basher.

Mayhem 25: A builders-only 100% solution exists, and a 7-builder 100% solution exists, so the result is 7 builders.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #90 on: November 22, 2011, 03:28:20 am »
I was able to get Mayhem 9 100% down to 6 builders, 2 bashers.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #91 on: November 24, 2011, 12:55:17 am »
I just went ahead and confirmed that Mayhem 15 comes down to the 4 builders from the "Skills you can't live without" thread.  I did a bunch of (mostly trivial) runs to eliminate everything else.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #92 on: February 04, 2012, 04:56:20 pm »
Tried a few more Mayhem levels (there were only four left, but solved two of them) and came up with the following results:

26: 4 bombers, 1 blocker, 19 builders
30: 26 builders

I'm pretty sure an expert will reduce the record of 26 builders. Anyway, here's the replay of Mayhem 30 100% without bashers. As for the no diggers solution here's a hint for turning the right group of lemmings round:

Quote from: Hint
Set up a blocker when he walks a few paces. It can be freed by bashing underneath.
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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #93 on: February 29, 2012, 11:11:39 pm »
...so which were the other two? All Mayhem levels are filled in in the OP. I'm guessing you did this yourself, but that means we don't know which levels really remain still to be looked at. I'm guessing one of the ones you filled in was Mayhem 29, because the discussion of the max% solution on the old forums indicates it requires 5 blockers, not 6.

Also from the old forums, ccexplore mentioned that Wild 19 requires 7 builders, not 9, and that Wild 3 requires 6 builders, not 7.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #94 on: March 06, 2012, 07:05:14 am »
Whoops, I'm a bit behind here partly because of work and a few internet problems but I've updated all the results.

...so which were the other two? All Mayhem levels are filled in in the OP. I'm guessing you did this yourself, but that means we don't know which levels really remain still to be looked at. I'm guessing one of the ones you filled in was Mayhem 29, because the discussion of the max% solution on the old forums indicates it requires 5 blockers, not 6.
It was levels 10 and 29, which was where I needed some help (I only posted for help over there, rather than in the thread itself). For both those levels, I found replays just to see how many skills the solver used, and then put it on the OP. Anyway, all the Original level results have been placed on the OP, but I'll still be looking for a fewer builder solution to Mayhem 30.

As for Oh No, how is Wicked 6 possible with 100%?
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #95 on: March 07, 2012, 01:20:00 am »
As for Oh No, how is Wicked 6 possible with 100%?

Wicked 6 100% requires the use of builders to keep miners going across gaps that would otherwise stop them.  As for the required skills, I can confirm 10 builders + 4 miners, but I'm pretty sure the builders can be reduced to 8.  The reason for this is that I've done the right half of the level with 5 builders, and ccexplore said on the old Lemmingswelt forums that the left half can be done with 3 builders.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #96 on: April 19, 2012, 01:51:26 pm »
I've confirmed Wild 3 with no digger, though it was mentioned earlier in the thread.

My solution to Havoc 7 does not use floaters or a blocker.

Wicked 12 -- 1 bomber, 2 blockers, 7 builders, 1 miner
Wicked 17 -- 6 builders
Wicked 20 -- 1 blocker, 6 builders, 1 digger

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #97 on: April 19, 2012, 07:25:11 pm »
From the old challenge thread, ccexplore solved Wicked 13 with 9 builders (plus other skills, but those can be eliminated separately).

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #98 on: April 20, 2012, 01:27:52 am »
Here's Havoc 13 100% with 9 builders. I didn't even realise this was a record until Proxima pointed it out to me :D

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #99 on: June 08, 2012, 09:07:18 pm »
We really should finish this off, as there are so few levels left to do. To start with, my max% solution to Wicked 10 uses 2 floaters, 2 blockers, 10 builders, 1 digger. My 100% solution to Wicked 11 uses 1 blocker, 7 builders, 2 bashers, 3 miners, 1 digger. Feel free to improve on these!

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #100 on: June 12, 2012, 05:01:44 pm »
No replay for this, but Mayhem 30 works with 15 builders, 11 under the current record  8)

Here's where they are used:

Quote
Left side: 2 to cross each of three gaps, 1 to get past the unclimbable part at the foot of the mountain
Right side: 4 to get over the one-way wall, 4 to cross the water

This solution requires a certain trick that allows the left-side lemmings to complete the right side's path to the exit.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #101 on: June 17, 2012, 12:59:35 am »
I just took a look through some of Proxima's work in Wicked, and made a few improvements:

Wicked 15: I've eliminated the blocker, and bashers are down to just the one needed to break the initial splat fall in time.  Crowd control can be done with builders alone by making a holding cell to the right of the entrance platform.  So that level is down to 1 floater, 7 builders, 1 basher, and 1 miner.

Wicked 10: Floaters and blockers are down to one apiece.  Builders and diggers remain unchanged, so the result is now 1 floater, 1 blocker, 10 builders, and 1 digger.

Wicked 11: I found lots of improvements here, and they're all variants of the same general idea:
Quote
The first lemming builds up to the platform to the right of the entrance (this can be reached with one builder) while the crowd is held back with a digger and a builder (another builder is used later to release them).  The leader walks across the platform and drops by the lizard, past his trigger area.  He can then get through the tree using two miners.  Once you're past the tree, the rest of the path to the exit can be cleared with just 3 builders and 2 bashers.

In total, the above solution uses 6 builders, 2 bashers, 2 miners, and 1 digger.  However, further improvements are possible by using variations of this route:
Quote
1) One of the bashers can be replaced with a miner+builder.  This gets bashers down to 1.
2) The second miner at the tree can be replaced with a builder.  This gets miners down to 1.
3) Instead of a digger and two builders, crowd control can be done with two blockers, two miners, and two builders.  Combined with #2 (which saves a miner), this eliminates the digger.
4)Crowd control can also be done with digger, a miner, a blocker and a builder.  This gets builders down to 5.

With these improvements, the result is down to 5 builders, 1 basher, and 1 miner.

Edit: Added the floater to Wicked 15.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #102 on: June 17, 2012, 01:08:25 am »
Excellent -- I'm glad I'm not the only one working on this!  :thumbsup:

I'm intrigued that there's another 98% solution to Wicked 10 beyond the one I found, which uses a rather nice trick. I shall have to devise a custom level in which said trick is the only solution :)

Slight correction on Wicked 15 -- I had already eliminated the blocker, my result started with 1 floater. Of course, this is still necessary.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #103 on: June 17, 2012, 04:50:04 am »
Wicked 15 -- now that I'm actually playing this in Lemmix, it looks like my previous result may be incorrect. It seems that in the original game you have to place 6 bricks under the hatch to make the fall safe, and that can only be done using a clever trick seen in this video

It's possible to break the fall without using any bashers, by using the miner positioning glitch (miner moves down 1 pixel) immediately after placing a brick, allowing the builder to turn around. I used the other miner on the starting platform and ended up building over the trap to the gap between the steel barriers (extreme precision required), maybe LemSteven's method is better. Anyway, it worked out, so here's a replay with no bashers used, improving the result to 1 floater, 7 builders, 1 miner (for Wicked 15).


Incidentally, while trying this method in Lemmix, I actually managed to save the third lemming out, which would lead to a 98% score. HOWEVER, it requires two assignments (miner then builder) in one frame, which isn't allowed in the original game. Assigning these skills on consecutive frames isn't good enough, becuase then the miner destroys a pixel of terrain that the builder would otherwise climb onto after turning around, gaining the extra height needed to break the fall before the third lemming arrives. An annoying near-miss, but there you go.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #104 on: June 17, 2012, 03:26:12 pm »
Wicked 14 is surprisingly tough for such an easy level  :( but these two replays, between them, reduce the skills to 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #105 on: June 17, 2012, 03:38:14 pm »
Minimac, you've updated Wicked 15 with no basher, but your result still reads "1 blocker" instead of "1 floater".

Whoops! Thanks for spotting that mistake. I've fixed it now.
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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #106 on: June 17, 2012, 06:02:07 pm »
Blizzard 1 -- Clam's 3-builder replay here can be improved to 100% fairly easily. The large number of builders given makes it easy to avoid the basher and digger (separately, of course). And ccexplore's replay here can be improved to 100% (also easy, but I've attached a replay anyway) still avoiding climbers and floaters. Result: 3 builders.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #107 on: June 17, 2012, 06:41:30 pm »
As a starting-point on Blizzard 13, I offer 9 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger. Skills are very limited, so this may be the only way to do it....

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #108 on: June 17, 2012, 06:55:53 pm »
Well, it does seem quite limited, but there is a way to save the miner. You just have to let your worker dig the edge of the second platform before you build and that's the miner saved.

Anyway, only Flurry 10 to go, along with two four other Wicked levels as far as I know.
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #109 on: June 17, 2012, 07:54:33 pm »
Wicked 14 is surprisingly tough for such an easy level  :( but these two replays, between them, reduce the skills to 2 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner.

Now down to just 1 miner.  Solutions are below.

Quote from: Wicked 14 no builder 100%
The first lemming mines and then blocks very shortly after hitting the bottom floor.  Send two climbers up the wall; the first one blocks shortly before he drops down to the exit.  The other climber mines as soon as he turns around, and he should be just low enough to free the crowd.  The right blocker is freed with a basher, and the left blocker is freed with a miner+basher.

Quote from: Wicked 14 no basher 100%
The first lemming mines and then blocks very shortly after hitting the bottom floor.  Send a climber up the wall; he builds such that he hits his head on the hook at the bottom of the chain by the edge of the platform (he must do this in such a way that the fall distance to the exit is not extended).  He mines toward the crowd, and the crowd builds up to meet the miner's tunnel.  The blocker is freed with a miner+builder.

Offline Proxima

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #110 on: June 17, 2012, 08:14:50 pm »
Good work, both of you  :thumbsup:

Here's Wicked 18 with 6 builders. (It can be done builders-only, so no other skill is necessary.) Wicked 19 is trivial -- 100% can only be achieved by the bottom route, and on DOS (unlike the Mac) this requires all the given skills to reach the exit at all. (That's 6 builders, 2 bashers.)

Flurry 10 -- Clam's replay here is easily converted to 100%, using a standard method for turning around without builders:
Quote
The first lemming digs; the second blocks in the dig pit. He will be released by the digger's next stroke, but the digger has been turned and can now bash left.
Therefore, the result for this level is the same, 3 builders.

Offline Proxima

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #111 on: June 18, 2012, 02:39:31 am »
It's amazing what you can find, looking through this forum  :P

ccexplore's replay for Mayhem 29 100% with additional skills here can indeed, as Clam suggested, be converted to an improvement on the current records in this topic. Specifically, as the attached replays show, 12 builders, 1 basher are necessary as well as the same old 5 blockers, 2 diggers.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #112 on: June 18, 2012, 05:48:55 am »
I think I mentioned this before, but Wicked 6 I'm pretty sure comes down to 8 builders & 4 miners.  The 8 builders results from combining my 5-builder solution for the right side with ccexplore's 3-builder solution for the left side, which he mentioned here (see the post from "guest" dated 30 Jul 2005 01:17:50).

For Wicked 7, I've got 4 bombers & 2 blockers.  I highly doubt this is improvable.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #113 on: June 18, 2012, 10:17:06 am »
As a starting-point on Blizzard 13, I offer 9 builders, 1 basher, 1 miner, 1 digger. Skills are very limited, so this may be the only way to do it....

I've managed to improve this to 8 builders, the same as for the earlier required-% challenge. Attached are replays for:
  • 8 builders
  • no miner (for no basher, just use basher instead of miner to stop the builder)
  • no diggers (this is a tough one!)

Plus screenshots of the key starting moves, for non-Lemmix users :)

Offline Minim

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #114 on: June 18, 2012, 04:20:10 pm »
Even though I've already mentioned about the no miner solution to Blitz 13, your solution was different (and more tricky :P) compared to mine.

Anyway. I think that's all levels solved. Fantastic job completing this challenge thread. Thanks to everyone who helped out! :thumbsup:
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #115 on: June 19, 2012, 03:33:50 am »
Havoc 18 is improved to 9 builders, 1 basher, and 2 diggers.  I've come very close to getting rid of the basher, but so far no luck.

Offline Proxima

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #116 on: June 23, 2012, 04:49:59 pm »
Mayhem 10 works with 1 blocker.

Also, just noticed another previous record that should be added here: Hail 2 with no blockers (here).

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #117 on: June 23, 2012, 07:19:17 pm »
I've eliminated climbers and floaters from Mayhem 5 in separate solutions.  Additionally, only four blockers are needed.  So the result there is down to 4 blockers, 5 builders, and 1 digger.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #118 on: June 24, 2012, 01:10:59 am »
Mayhem
23: 1 basher, 12 builders
26: 4 bombers, 1 blocker, 19 builders

Improved Mayhem 23 to 10 builders, 1 basher, and Mayhem 26 to 3 bombers, 1 blocker, 11 builders. The 3-bomber solution is achieved by sliding instead of bombing through the third bomber spot (after crossing the water). If the crowd could be delayed a little more, then 77/80 might be possible, but it doesn't seem likely even with the 2 builders I had spare.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #119 on: June 24, 2012, 06:46:47 am »
Wicked 4 is improved to 1 climber, 1 bomber, 16 builders, and 1 basher.  The 16-builder solution and the 1-climber solution differ in the way that they handle the left side of the level.

The 16-builder solution has the lower-left group build through the stairway to the left of the entrance.  One lemming then builds from this stairway to the red blocks underneath the top left entrance.  This uses up 10 builders, and the other 6 are used on the right side.

The 1-climber solution involves building over each of the four water pools so that the lower left group joins the lower right group.  This allows the two groups to share a climber, but it also requires an extra floater and builder for the top left group (their fall is too far by one pixel).

Offline Proxima

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #120 on: June 24, 2012, 06:17:56 pm »
Here's a replay that isn't optimised at all, but shows 100% can be achieved.

Got this (Hail 5) down to 8 floaters, 1 blocker, 9 builders, 1 digger.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #121 on: June 25, 2012, 04:53:45 am »
I just had a look through Havoc 7.  My original 100% solution uses the following skills:

Left Side: 10 climbers, 3 builders, 1 basher, 2 miners, & 1 digger
Right Side: 1 blocker, 7 builders, 1 basher, & 1 digger

Obviously, this is less efficient than Proxima's solution because it uses an extra blocker that he doesn't use.  However, I was able to remove the digger from the right side by placing the blocker on a build brick and carefully releasing him with a basher without destroying the bridge.

With the digger gone from the right side, it can be used on the left side instead of a miner.  Alternatively, it can be used in such a way that the left crowd can climb out of their holding cell instead of using a builder.  The extra builder can then be used by the exit to save a climber.  Unfortunately, since the crowd needs to be released with climbers under this method, 9 climbers are still required.

So the result for Havoc 7 is now down to 9 climbers, 9 builders, 2 bashers, 1 miner, and 1 digger.  As far as I can tell, the minimum skills result for the other thread is stlll 26.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #122 on: August 10, 2012, 09:11:54 pm »
Frost 6 improved to 1 blocker, 4 builders, thanks to a rather straightforward solution found as part of this challenge.  (See this post for attached replay.)

Offline Proxima

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #123 on: March 23, 2013, 06:45:18 pm »
Wicked 10 is down to 9 builders (as well as 1 floater, 1 blocker, 1 digger).

Offline Minim

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #124 on: June 21, 2013, 08:49:35 pm »
Hooray! I'm the next person to make an improvement. :D

I've confirmed that Havoc 8 can be solved 100% with 4 builders. This was done whilst clearing up the minimum skills with 100% challenge thread.

Edit: Also, Frost 7 can be done with 8 builders. Not too hard if your good at crowd controlling without bombing or building.
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #125 on: December 17, 2014, 07:51:19 am »
I just found an improvement to this challenge, and it's a significant one:

Havoc 7: All but one of the climbers have been eliminated, resulting in 1 climber, 9 builders, 2 bashers, 1 miner, & 1 digger.

There is a ledge where the left crowd can be contained using just a blocker, and that blocker can be subsequently released using just a digger.  This means that you can use three builders on the left side and seven on the right side, so nobody has to climb to the exit.

Unfortunately, a climber and floater are is required to make this work.  A miner must be used through the pillar preceding the aforementioned ledge (both bashers are needed elsewhere), and this miner will cut off access to the ledge after a few seconds.  Even pushing the 10 lemmings through at RR99 is not quite fast enough.  The fix is to have the first lemming start climbing the pillar, and have the next one mine it (which stops the climber).  I also needed a floater to get the lemmings spaced properly.

There are a number of pixel-precise moves required to get this to work, and there are a few times when pixel-precise tasks on opposite sides of the level need to be done nearly simultaneously, which makes this a bear to execute.

Edit 11 Jun 2018: Found a way to execute this solution without the floater by using the release rate along with the timing of the initial digger to get the lemmings spaced properly.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2018, 04:15:18 am by LemSteven »

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #126 on: April 16, 2017, 02:20:25 am »
Just when you thought challenges were dead, I came up with another improvement for this challenge:

Mayhem 10: I just achieved 97% without using a climber (screenshot attached), which brings the result down to 3 floaters, 1 blocker, 20 builders, 4 bashers, & 2 diggers.

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #127 on: April 16, 2017, 04:07:13 am »
Refreshing!

The opening post lists skill counts but not number of lemmings saved. I suggest to add the save count along with your new records. Even though often obvious, save count is part of the challenge and the most important data of the record.

Did you play in DOS Lemmings or vanilla Lemmix?

Challenges seem dead: I'm happy about new theory every time. In 2010, I was already happy that culture had not moved entirely to multiplayer and the newer engines. I even maintainined L2 fewest skills for gold.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: April 16, 2017, 04:13:24 am by Simon »

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #128 on: April 16, 2017, 06:35:01 pm »
I'm using DOS Lemmings, hence why I don't have a full replay.

You can get the percentages from the Maximum Lemmings Saved Records thread, but I agree it would be nice to have the percentages listed on the opening post for easy reference.

Offline namida

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #129 on: April 17, 2017, 04:32:45 pm »
Does anyone have a replay, in general, for a 73/75 saved on Mayhem 10? (Also, the first post incorrectly lists this as 78/80 instead of 73/75.)

Offline Proxima

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #130 on: April 17, 2017, 04:36:12 pm »
On the previous page of this topic I posted my 1-blocker replay.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #131 on: April 17, 2017, 06:56:48 pm »
I think that level was one of those where we just took the existing max-saved challenge replay, set that as a preliminary current result for this challenge, and then no one paid attention to the level again until now.  [edit: okay maybe not, since Proxima did contribute a solution to that level] To be honest I didn't even remember off top of my head where the climber was used in the first place, I had to go back to the replay to remember. :XD:

Challenges are dead in the sense that many of the main contributors (eg. me and Clam) no longer had the time/interest/energy to do so, and so far no one else has stepped in aside from LemSteven.  I'm quite sure there are a number of challenge types on this board for which we never even reached the status of every level having been given a serious look-over.
« Last Edit: April 17, 2017, 07:06:17 pm by ccexplore »

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #132 on: April 17, 2017, 07:26:20 pm »
It turns out that a simple refinement to my no-climber solution for Mayhem 10 yields a 19-builder solution, so now we're down to 3 floaters, 1 blocker, 19 builders, 4 bashers, & 2 diggers.

The only change from the no-climber solution is instead of building twice to rejoin the crowd, the freed right blocker builds just once at the bottom of the level to trap himself, and then climbs to free himself in the end.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #133 on: April 24, 2017, 09:43:39 am »
I've got another improvement to this challenge:

Mayhem 30: 10 builders -- I was able to eliminate five of the builders from Proxima's 15-builder solution as follows:

Hints (click to show/hide)

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #134 on: December 08, 2019, 07:53:39 pm »
As mentioned in the "Minimum Skills with Maximum %" thread, Mayhem 18 has been reduced to 13 builders.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #135 on: January 08, 2020, 07:59:26 am »
As mentioned in the "Minimum Skills with Maximum %" thread, Taxing 4 has been reduced to 8 builders.  You can find the replay there, although the reduction in builders is solely from how I handled the upper part of the level in that new solution.  So for this challenge where we only care about the builders count for this particular level, you may find it easier instead to just do the lower part the old way, and just change the upper part with the mining and subsequent building to match the new solution.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #136 on: January 10, 2020, 12:02:11 pm »
Once again, improvements found in the "Minimum Skills with Maximum %" thread carry over to this challenge, this time for Mayhem 10 reducing the number of builders to 17.

I'm also almost certain that based on the moves used in this improved solution, we can also (in separate solutions) reduce both bashers and diggers counts by 1, if we use the blocker-free crowd-holding method in the previously presented 1-blocker solution.  Once I have time to actually confirm with replays, I'll update the results table accordingly.  [edit: both confirmed, table updated]
« Last Edit: January 10, 2020, 02:21:27 pm by ccexplore »

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #137 on: February 08, 2020, 07:12:51 am »
We kicked off the new decade 2020 with the discovery that Mayhem 19 actually has a lose 2 solution, see replay here.

So we need to revise the result reported here for that level, which previously assumed a lose-3 solution.  For now it's just the skill counts as seen from the replay (1 climber, 2 bombers, 18 builders).  I suspect we could end up using 1 or possibly 2 less builders; other skills cannot be further reduced.  Will update results here once improvements can be confirmed.

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #138 on: February 11, 2020, 12:48:35 am »
Here's a couple of random improvements from ONML:

Crazy 20: 10 builders, 1 basher.  10-builder screenshot attached (requires steel glitches).
Wild 1: 1 builder, 1 miner.  1-builder screenshot attached (requires direct drop).

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #139 on: March 28, 2020, 07:51:59 pm »
I was taking a look at Wicked 15 for the min-skills for max-% thread, and I have to call into question the 7-builder result for that level in this thread.  The result is first mentioned in my post here, but I made a reference to Proxima's earlier work, which I can't seem to find anywhere.  I'm sure I took the 7-builder result from his original post, since I can't seem to replicate it myself.

Later on, Proxima posted this in a post that appears to have been deleted, but not before it was quoted by Clam:

Quote from: Proxima
Wicked 15 -- now that I'm actually playing this in Lemmix, it looks like my previous result may be incorrect. It seems that in the original game you have to place 6 bricks under the hatch to make the fall safe, and that can only be done using a clever trick seen in this video

This suggests that the 7-builder solution may have been incorrect.  I'm going to assume it is unless someone can provide evidence confirming that it's doable.  The fewest I was able to use, while still saving 48/50, is 9 builders.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #140 on: March 29, 2020, 11:04:20 am »
I had a look and managed to use 8 builders, it requires the no-basher start that Clam found (which requires assigning builder on very next frame after assigning miner, before it has a chance to remove any terrain), this way you can use the spare basher to later turn the lemming around some steel instead of building to do so.

7 builders seem unlikely and will require a replay proof.  Updating the results from 7 to 8.

[edit: I see that Clam's no-basher start (as seen in the replay he attached in his post) wasn't quite what I did here, so a quick note below about what I did here, for people who can't watch my replay:
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
]
« Last Edit: March 29, 2020, 12:13:27 pm by ccexplore »

Offline Minim

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #141 on: March 29, 2020, 04:55:41 pm »
Well, sorry if I happened to fill in the wrong result. :XD: I don't remember where I got that from either.

At least I was able to redeem myself with an improvement to another level which has been left in the dust. Here's Havoc 15 with 15 builders, although considering the route I used, I wonder if it's doable with fewer. I also wonder if the digger can be removed too.

Edit: Down to 13 builders now, but looks like the digger seems to be out of reach, unless there's a way to contain (and free) them with the 5 builders I had left.
« Last Edit: March 30, 2020, 10:07:19 am by Minim »
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Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #142 on: April 12, 2020, 10:56:28 pm »
My recent 9-skill solution to Wicked 18 can be adapted to result in a 5-builder solution, improving the result for this thread.  The primary change is that the builder used to release the crowd is replaced with a miner, although a few subtle changes from my screenshot in the other thread were necessary to make this work.  See spoiler for details.

Wicked 18: 5 Builders (click to show/hide)

Offline LemSteven

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Re: What are the skills you need for maximum percentage on each level?
« Reply #143 on: October 03, 2020, 04:00:20 am »
Here's a 15 builder solution for Wicked 4.  It's really just a simple refinement of the 16-builder solution I confirmed back in 2012, which saves a builder on the right side.

The 1 climber, 1 bomber, & 1 basher remain unchanged from before.