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Offline finlay

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ideas
« on: February 22, 2011, 04:10:53 PM »
How does one come up with level ideas? I'm really no good at it! Any thoughts?

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #1 on: February 22, 2011, 10:20:35 PM »
I'd say I'm not that good at it either.  I think there are two general approaches you can try:

1) If you are artistically inclined, you can start from the visual end of things, and just try to put together a level that looks good.  Then tweak the skillset (and terrain if needed) and see if you can come up with a decent puzzle as well.  Starting with all skills available in generous amounts, and then gradually see how the level plays out with less and less skills (particularly if you take away certain types of skills altogether) is a good way to proceed.

2) If you are more left-brained, you can try to come up with puzzle ideas based on various tricks and techniques you might have seen from official levels as well as other people's levels.  There are a number of (by no means exhaustive) general ideas you can look at:
  a) various means of crowd control, beyond the simplest of blocking to hold them off
  b) multitasking
  c) see if you can make the release rate a core part of the puzzle
  d) take advantage of transient effects of performing a skill.   That is, instead of simply looking at the effects of a completed bridge, or a through-and-through basher/miner/digger tunnel, think about how a lemming may take advantage of a still-in-progress bridge or tunnel.  As a simple example, a lemming can turn around once at the wall of a digger's tunnel just a little bit before the digger breaks through, and you would have diverted a lemming to go in the opposite direction than where everyone else would.  Some skills like bashers can even be interrupted mid-stroke to create interesting effects on the terrain (in the case of basher, you can create a sort of "step" that way).
  e) Look at skills in terms of the exact area of terrain added or removed on each "stroke/step" can reveal some creative ways to make use of them, beyond their standard uses.  The "A.T." trick is one spectacular example, where we consider the fact that you can create a single step by digging down the sides of a wall almost but not quite to the bottom, and then multiplying that effect to create multiple steps to scale great heights.  Less spectacular but other useful concepts:
    - a miner's stroke not only takes out terrain below and in front, but also some terrain overhead.  So if you have a thin platform overhead you can break it in addition to the standard mining-tunnel effect.
    - digging near to a thin vertical wall will effectively break through the wall.
    - think of a builder's bricks as simply general added pixels of terrain, and you can come up with many interesting uses beyond the standard bridge.  For example, stack a few build bridges to create a sort of wall.  Fill up tiny notches/gaps on a wall with a build brick to make the wall climbable.  Use bridges to provide terrain connecting two walls, so you can mine through both with one miner.  The possibilities are endless!
  f) Sometimes you may want to use a skill not so much for its "typical" effect, but for some secondary side effect (and if you can take advantage of both effects at once, good for you).  A classic example is to turn a lemming around by having him build and bump his head on a ceiling.  Even bashing on thin air, which seems completely useless, has the side effect of delaying the lemming, which may well have significant consequences down the line.
  g) definitely make good use of climbers and floaters.  They are the means by which a selected number of lemmings can get to places normal lemmings can't

Perhaps the ultimate advice is simply practice, practice, practice.  Start creating levels without worrying too much about how bad they might be starting off, and one day you may find yourself becoming quite a decent level designer!  Besides, there are many level solvers out there of different calibers, so you don't have to make it a goal for every level to be the hardest puzzle ever.  Just aim for fun, enjoyable, interesting.

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #2 on: February 22, 2011, 10:57:11 PM »
hmmm... also, where's the best place to put my created levels... and where would i get other people's levels? I mean i have got a lot that I've downloaded in the past but i don't know where to start with any of them... and then they're often too hard and I get bored.

I just tried putting them in that stickied upload page but it didn't accept the zip file. I take it I have to compile them into a DAT file or something? That'll take AAGES, Lemedit is SLOW.

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #3 on: February 22, 2011, 11:55:41 PM »
Got it working. http://lemmings-db.camanis.net/levelpack/agpsZW1taW5ncy0zchALEglMZXZlbFBhY2sYiScM/

Have a try - the only one I'm kinda proud of is number 3, "Fiery depths", because I haven't seen the trick in it used before. I included one that I uploaded to another thread as level 6 which is just an obnoxious bomber timing level and one as number 4 which is just a bit silly. Number 1 was another proof-of-concept idea but not a particularly difficult level.

I'm quite impressed with that database, taking screenshots of all the levels. :o

Now i'm just back to "hmm, don't have any more ideas!" :P

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2011, 11:57:36 PM »
Well, I was just about to submit my reply, and then you pretty much eliminated the need. :XD: ;)  Well maybe one thing left:

Lemedit is SLOW.

Yeah, LemEdit does some stuff which apparently taxes DOSBox somewhat.  You can make it a little faster by bumping up the emulation speed ("CPU Cycles") to something high, like 10000-20000, though loading and saving levels will still happen at snail's pace.  :( Unfortunately, DOSBox has an emulation bug where if the CPU Cycle is set too high, the music for PC Lemmings may not play, so you'll want to drop the emulation speed back down to something like 3000-4000 when you actually play the levels in CustLemm.  Such is life in emulation land. :-\

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #5 on: February 23, 2011, 12:17:14 AM »
Had a quick look at the levels.  Definitely like the concept behind #1. :thumbsup:  The levels are as you said not particular difficult (it feels like I can solve most of them on first glance in my head), but that's not necessarily a bad thing as not everyone necessarily wants super-hard levels.  The levels are not a bad way to get your hands wet on making levels, and actually you seem pretty productive given presumably how few days you've spent on all these levels!

One thing I've noticed is that many of the levels seem a bit "builder-heavy".  I think there's a general distaste in this forum for builder-heavy levels as building takes time and can get tedious, but that's more a personal taste thing, and you are probably no worse an offender than, say, a good number of actual levels from the official Lemmings game. ;P

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #6 on: February 23, 2011, 01:17:43 AM »
It's a bit of a lie, really - most of them are ones that I designed a few years ago and never shared at the time or whatever, and the only one that is new is the 6th.

You see, I have had ideas in the past, I just never know how to start a new one. I keep messing around with the editor and giving up after 10 minutes. I guess that's normal though.

(As for the builder-heaviness, it's central to the concept of #3, was put in #1 so that it was actually a playable level rather than a bunch of floating islands and an exit on the floor, and as I say, #4 was something I added just because it looks funny. I'm not that much of a fan of builders either :P)

Offline Nortaneous

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Re: ideas
« Reply #7 on: February 23, 2011, 01:46:33 AM »
Most of my levels started as ideas of interesting skill sequences (climber climbs up a wall and another lemming builds stairs to catch it, basher bashes out a tunnel through a useless-looking pipe at the top of the level, whatever) and grew from there, usually into things that were nothing like what they originally started out as being. Sometimes I can get two levels out of the same idea (City of Satan and Unidentified Lemming Object for the climber thing).

Offline Clam

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Re: ideas
« Reply #8 on: February 24, 2011, 08:41:54 AM »
I've tried all sorts of ways of making new levels. I tend not to stick to one method for too long (or to one version even, I diverted my attention to Lemmings Chronicles at one point, and also L2 momentarily). A good chunk of my levels come from the "combine two skills in a neat way" department, but I've also done visual designs with lemmings thrown in, obscure glitches or quirks in the game mechanics, and even (*gasp*) easy levels with heaps of spare skills. I'm struggling to think of new levels at the moment, but the (vague) ideas I have right now involve severe glitch abuse, which isn't the easiest thing to build a fun level around :-\

Offline GigaLem

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Re: ideas
« Reply #9 on: February 25, 2011, 03:37:08 AM »
*a bit off topic but*

You know lomax adventures
How bout taking his sprites and puting them in sonic 1
Like
Lomax the lemming in Sonic 1?   ???





Offline namida

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Re: ideas
« Reply #10 on: March 02, 2011, 02:04:09 PM »
HONESTLY GIGA, JUST SHUT THE f*** UP.

Now that that's done...

I use a variety of methods for my levels. Some start as an interesting design idea which I then create a puzzle around - Lemmerixo, Express Lane and Snowed In being some examples of this. Others, start from the trick and I then work this into a level - the most well known such level from me being Oblivion. Still others come from a basic concept, with no specific trick, worked into a level - for example, To The End! where my thoughts were something along the lines of "Okay, there's many levels with 20 of everything... and sometimes they 0 something that's useful but not entirely essential. How about a level that takes away a key skill?". Yet others may originally come simply from me messing around and placing random blocks, in other words, pretty much accidental strokes of genius - No Time To Die is a great example of this. Other times, I may just create a few easy levels, which I generally design to be fun to play, and I end up finding a very hard skill set for them - Return of the T is one such level here.

One very unusual case is with "The Deadly Climb" and "Not Gonna Work" from LP DOS Project. The original level was The Deadly Climb (built from the "work a trick into a level" style), with "Not Gonna Work" originally being made as an easier version to fill space, requiring only 75% and also giving 20 blockers. I then challenged myself to 100% this level (which also requires not using blockers as this level provides no way to free them), and for ages I thought this was impossible but kept trying different things, until eventually I found a way to do it that *just* worked. Thus, a harder level than The Deadly Climb - originally itself intended as the harder version - had been born.
My Lemmings projects
2D Lemmings: NeoLemmix (engine) | Lemmings Plus Series (level packs) | Doomsday Lemmings (level pack)
3D Lemmings: Loap (engine) | L3DEdit (level / graphics editor) | L3DUtils (replay / etc utility) | Lemmings Plus 3D (level pack)

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #11 on: March 18, 2011, 09:03:53 PM »
Here, I made a level today. I was wondering if you guys could try it. :thumbsup:

This is in lieu of making a pack of levels, obviously. I just want to see if you can solve it (it's not too hard) and more importantly if you can backroute it. I've tried to get rid of the backroutes that were more obvious to me but I'm sure there must still be a way.

(However, if you're going to reply to this, note that I don't have Lemmix and therefore can't run replays, so describing your solution to me will probably be easier.)

Anyway, even as I write I'm thinking of a couple of things that I could improve about the level but I can't be bothered just now and I'm going away over the weekend... Hope you like it, anyway.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #12 on: March 18, 2011, 09:48:28 PM »
Not sure if it's a backroute or not but I've attached a screenshot of my solution.  The screenshot should be self-explanatory.  I changed the color of 2 of the build bricks to yellow so they show up more clearly.

This level is a great example of designing a level "visuals first".  Love the Eiffel Tower concept and the resulting puzzle is pretty good, neither too hard nor too trivial.  I like it.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #13 on: March 18, 2011, 11:36:54 PM »
This is in lieu of making a pack of levels, obviously.

Levelpaks are overrated anyway, they are typically nothing more than some "random" (slight exaggeration but you'll see my point) collection of levels the author decides to throw together.  Most levels in a levelpak have little to no interrelations between levels (the rare few might have repeats, or "part 1"/"part 2"s.  Truly rare are levelpaks that actually have a common theme running throughout all its levels).  Our brains certainly don't come up with spurts of multiple levels, we simply come up with them one by one until there're somehow "enough levels" to be thrown into a "pack".

So yeah, feel free to showcase levels individually instead of in packs.  It's easier than ever to play LVL files directly with Lemmix and all that.

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #14 on: March 18, 2011, 11:53:13 PM »
This level is a great example of designing a level "visuals first".  Love the Eiffel Tower concept and the resulting puzzle is pretty good, neither too hard nor too trivial.  I like it.
Thanks... I try. ;)

Yeah, yours isn't the same solution as mine – there is that slight problem in that I don't quite know how to anticipate the fact that bashers don't always stop when you want them to! I thought that a basher on the second level would only go through the central pillar.

Quite a few of the little bumps and gaps in the terrain are me trying to anticipate other examples of this. For instance, I realised that you could have just bashed straight through at the floor of the first level, which is why the spinner trap and the metal block on the right came about. I'll do a screenie of my intended solution in a minute.

By the way, did you build a step on the rocky floor there, where there's a yellow dot? You shouldn't have needed to...

Edit:
Here: http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15543016/lem-eiffel.png
Quote from: Spoiler
build in the little notch so that you make a step so that when you bash the first brick away your lemmings end up on the right and don't fall into the trap. then build to the left when the lemming turns back over the steel block so that it ends up on the top of the brick, then build to the right to get out of the tower. for 100% you should also make the first lemming who turns back to the left build before he drops in the Seine. now you build to the exit, let a lemming who turns back to the left become a climber and mine+build to release the inner lemmings.

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2011, 04:45:10 PM »
Another one (turns out I do seem to be coming up with ideas occasionally), although I wouldn't be surprised if you've seen something like it before... have a try, anyway... and tell me if you can find more than one solution... Also, other people can feel free to try them - I only seem to be getting replies from cc... I know it's not exactly busy here though, haha! :P

Offline Gronkling

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Re: ideas
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2011, 07:57:34 PM »
My lemmix refused to open that level for some reason so i've attached a video of a lemmini replay.

I used all the skills so it might be the intended route. Also it's a very good level with a nice design and concept!  :thumbsup:

Offline geoo

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Re: ideas
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2011, 08:20:48 PM »
I got a solution that doesn't use the bashers or blocker (so I guess I backrouted it):

Quote
Have the last lemming of the three dig at the top of the mountain all the way down into the chamber. Have the trapped lemming climb up the digger's tunnel and as soon as he reached the top, dig again (thus widening the digger's tunnel). Have the other lemming also dig after he's reached the height of the other (active) digger, and dig after surpassing him, widening the tunnel even further, and creating a ledge that prevents the climbers from exiting to the left. Both will hit steel, and once they are facing right again, have the first one build over the diggers tunnel making path to the right. Have them climb up and into the exit.

I really like the idea of the level, making good use of climbers and using only very few lemmings. Also an almost builder-less level. The digging took a bit long, but I think that's specific to my solution. Even though I ended up with skills left over, it wasn't trivial to come up with a solution.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2011, 08:22:32 PM »
Yeah, yours isn't the same solution as mine – there is that slight problem in that I don't quite know how to anticipate the fact that bashers don't always stop when you want them to! I thought that a basher on the second level would only go through the central pillar.

Yeah, it's almost certainly a bug in the basher programming for PC Lemmings (and actually a good number of other ports including Amiga, although I do know the Mac version doesn't have this).  The effect of it is that it only checks for "stop if nothing ahead" every other stroke instead of on every stroke.  In other words, excepting for steel or falling, you'll find that bashers always stop on an odd number of bash strokes.  In your case, it means that if I take care to not completely bash through the thin central pillar during the first bash stroke, I will get 2 more bash strokes, instead of just the 2nd one if the bug wasn't present.  Also, the game checks for terrain just slightly beyond the end of what the lemming just bashed, so even though my 3rd stroke didn't actually take out any terrain, the fact that it brought the lemming close enough to more terrain ahead is enough for it to continue bashing.

By the way, did you build a step on the rocky floor there, where there's a yellow dot? You shouldn't have needed to...

Yeah, good catch, that was unnecessary.

Also, other people can feel free to try them - I only seem to be getting replies from cc... I know it's not exactly busy here though, haha! :P

I know each time I downloaded your stuff the download count was already greater than 1 before I even downloaded, so other people have been trying them out.  I think I'm just chattier than most. ;)  [edit: and this time many more replied, in fact while I'm in the middle of writing this!]

Anyway, great puzzle for your new level! :thumbsup: The limited skills and the steel make it pretty clear roughly how the solution would go, but it took a while before I was able to put it all together.  Actually, I do have one leftover digger, so I probably didn't quite do it the way you envisioned.  I've attached screenshots of my solution in the attached ZIP file.

I also love the way you simulate a lone stranded lemming by an invisible entrance trapdoor, and to have that area off-screen from the initial view so that it looks like the lemming was stranded there all along, rather than seeing it magically come out of thin air.

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2011, 09:27:23 PM »
Yeah, yours isn't the same solution as mine – there is that slight problem in that I don't quite know how to anticipate the fact that bashers don't always stop when you want them to! I thought that a basher on the second level would only go through the central pillar.

Yeah, it's almost certainly a bug in the basher programming for PC Lemmings (and actually a good number of other ports including Amiga, although I do know the Mac version doesn't have this).  The effect of it is that it only checks for "stop if nothing ahead" every other stroke instead of on every stroke.  In other words, excepting for steel or falling, you'll find that bashers always stop on an odd number of bash strokes.  In your case, it means that if I take care to not completely bash through the thin central pillar during the first bash stroke, I will get 2 more bash strokes, instead of just the 2nd one if the bug wasn't present.  Also, the game checks for terrain just slightly beyond the end of what the lemming just bashed, so even though my 3rd stroke didn't actually take out any terrain, the fact that it brought the lemming close enough to more terrain ahead is enough for it to continue bashing.
Ah, you seem to know more about this than I do, but if it's not the way the mac version works, that might explain it. I haven't been testing it on that, though, because that involves a lot more effort, like transferring it to an older computer. I did change the terrain slightly at my end and took out the brick on the right of the pole on the second floor because I only put it in to make the thing symmetrical... Haven't tested it though. Sounds like it probably won't make any difference.

As for this level, the three of you seem to have come up with similar-but-slightly-different solutions which aren't the same as my one. But in a way, I quite like that. Needs more testing, anyway. ;P

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #20 on: April 06, 2011, 08:29:21 PM »
Here is a rubbish level i came up with. Accordingly, i have called it 'rubbish.lvl'. Please have a go. :thumbsup:

Also tell me your solution – I've managed to remove all the ways to backroute this that I've seen, but I wouldn't be surprised if you find one that passed me over. It's a simple level, though, not a lot to it. It might not be obvious if you get the right solution whether it's meant to be a backroute or not, that's the only problem with this approach...

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #21 on: April 07, 2011, 12:19:53 AM »
Not rubbish at all, it looks innocent and then you find out the hidden dangers, and then you really need to start using your brain. ;) 8)

I've attached a zipped screenshot of my solution.  I have to wonder a little if it's intended, since I needed to be fairly precise in the location of some of the skill assignments, in order for the solution to work out.  But it's possible this is an unfortunate side effect of the level having been adjusted to eliminate backroutes?

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #22 on: April 07, 2011, 12:38:44 AM »
Quote from: spoiler
Yay, it is the intended solution. I actually added in the terrain at the top (and the stairs and the water) as decoration because the level was looking a bit stark (and also to try and prevent one from building straight from entrance to exit, although I tested the level without the terrain at the top and 3 bridges falls just short – but you can always extend them, so that argument's invalid...), and it's sort of a happy coincidence that it looks like you can build up to the block and solve the level that way, but the bridge from the block to the exit also falls short and you can only solve it by losing more than 2 lemmings... Another happy coincidence was the fact that if you build a bridge from the entrance side and don't dig through it, your lemmings die...

So yeah, that was always the intended solution – it's precise because there's not really any other way of pulling it off.

I guess I don't imagine that I would like this level myself if I was given it as a level to play by someone else because I get frustrated at levels that require a lot of trial and error, so I feel like I'm copping out by adding "fake" difficulty. Meh. Oh and the other reason for calling it rubbish.lvl is because it's better than calling it SPIKES.LVL which was the original title...

Also, I can't really think of a better in-game title for it – I just ended up typing nonsense into the level name field as you may have noticed... Glad you enjoyed it, anyway.

Incidentally, I think I found that a climber explodes in roughly the length of one of the brown blocks, if that helps. You probably knew that already, though.

Also, because I realise I haven't posted it yet, this is the beginning of my intended solution to RESCUE.LVL (the previous one): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15543016/rescuescreenshot.png It's a bit different from the ones you guys posted, but as I say, I quite liked your solutions. (after the two climbers turn back, the blocker is released by the lemming on the left)

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #23 on: May 31, 2011, 08:42:16 PM »
Another flash of inspiration. (Couldn't think of a snappy name for the LVL file though so it's just today's date)

I don't think it should be too difficult to beat, so try and beat it in 1 minute instead. ;P

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #24 on: May 31, 2011, 11:42:23 PM »
Awesome!  Your puzzles are get better and better each time! :thumbsup:

Good quality logic puzzles like yours help offset statements like this:

whereas traditional methods were mostly exhausted by the time I got here.

( :P Ok, to be fair, Clam was talking about challenge solutions to the original levels not custom levels, and with those there's definitely some truth to what he said.)

I've attached a screenshot of my solution.  I'm pretty sure there aren't any backroutes (of course, now that I've said it, I can just see Clam coming up with something I completely overlooked...... :P)

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #25 on: May 31, 2011, 11:45:24 PM »
Also like to add that in the course of solving your level, it led me to a different idea that, while probably has been featured in some form in some custom level out there, it's something I can use in my own levels.  Not that I've worked on any levels for a long long time though... :( Maybe one day...

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #26 on: June 01, 2011, 12:06:17 AM »
I tried very carefully to get rid of backroutes. I couldn't think of any either. In some ways I think it'd be quite cool if someone comes up with a backroute solution.

I'm gonna link you to the screenshot of me doing it in less than one minute (just to prove it's possible). It's not much different
Quote from: Spoiler
you basically have to be a lot tighter with timing and placement of the left blocker and you may have to employ the trick where you pause at the beginning and get a few seconds extra, which is basically why i didn't make the level require 1 minute. I'm sure it'd be possible to make things slightly closer together or something.
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15543016/1minutesolution.png

Also, for those of you who've played L3D, the level was sort-of inspired by Mayhem 19 (probably my favourite). But of course, L3D levels are very difficult to translate to 2D so it's pretty much nothing like that anymore, but a few key elements are there like climbing over a one-way wall, and bombing near the end.

Offline Clam

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Re: ideas
« Reply #27 on: June 02, 2011, 11:13:13 AM »
Thanks finlay for bumping this; somehow I missed these levels until now. :-\

I found a backroute (or, at least, a very easy solution) to "rubbish.lvl":
Quote from: spoiler
Dig down about half the height of the tile that the lemmings start on (using blockers to hold the crowd), then build across to the exit platform. Release the crowd and make all lemmings climbers.

Assuming it doesn't wreck the intended solution (btw, is cc's solution the intended one?), you can fix this by simply moving the exit platform to the right, so you need more than 3 builders to get across.


Other than that, my solutions aren't any different to the ones posted here. I like these levels, they're tricky enough to make you stop and think, but painless to execute once you find the trick. And I agree with ccexplore, these levels are getting better as you go on :thumbsup:

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #28 on: June 02, 2011, 06:20:57 PM »
Thanks finlay for bumping this; somehow I missed these levels until now. :-\

I found a backroute (or, at least, a very easy solution) to "rubbish.lvl":
Quote from: spoiler
Dig down about half the height of the tile that the lemmings start on (using blockers to hold the crowd), then build across to the exit platform. Release the crowd and make all lemmings climbers.

Assuming it doesn't wreck the intended solution (btw, is cc's solution the intended one?), you can fix this by simply moving the exit platform to the right, so you need more than 3 builders to get across.
Correct, he did it the intended way. I thought I'd closed the backroute of building over the gap with the hanging block. For some reason I always forget that one can stretch bridges (if you don't stretch the bridge, it doesn't quite make it – I did try that with a version of the level without the hanging block). And for some reason, digging before building didn't occur to me. I'm now wondering if i can be bothered actually changing it. Maybe another day, say if I put together a bunch of levels into a pack or something. (I have a small number of levels that I haven't bothered putting on here yet.)

Quote
Other than that, my solutions aren't any different to the ones posted here. I like these levels, they're tricky enough to make you stop and think, but painless to execute once you find the trick. And I agree with ccexplore, these levels are getting better as you go on :thumbsup:
thanks 8)
I would be quite interested to see how you did the mountain rescue level, actually.

Offline Clam

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Re: ideas
« Reply #29 on: June 02, 2011, 09:48:59 PM »
I did the rescue level by the intended method first, but I have since found another way, which differs from geoo's and ccexplore's as well. I've attached a screenshot showing the crucial part (this uses 2 bashers and 2 diggers). The rest is similar to the intended solution.

Offline Nortaneous

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Re: ideas
« Reply #30 on: June 18, 2011, 04:37:39 AM »
Did this during a plane ride to SF. Probably pretty easy.

Offline Nortaneous

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Re: ideas
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2011, 04:30:23 AM »
I did eiffel.lvl by mining through the center column and bashing through the arch thing.

Anyway, here's a level that I made on the plane ride back from SF. (I think I finished it, but I'm not sure, and I'm on Linux right now so I can't check. Lemmix doesn't seem to like Wine very much.)

Offline Clam

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Re: ideas
« Reply #32 on: August 10, 2011, 03:09:05 AM »
I presume this thread is fair game for anyone to post levels, and not just finlay?

I had a bunch of ideas a while ago, but nothing ever came of them. Now I think I know why. These "ideas" of mine were glitches or other tricks that I wanted to build into a level. But, whenever I tried to make a level, I'd either end up with was a demonstration of the trick rather than an actual puzzle, or a puzzle that would be okay but takes way too many pixel-perfect skill placements. I haven't touched these ideas for a while, so hopefully now I can start over with a (relatively) fresh pair of eyes and make some decent puzzles from them.

To start with, here (attached) is one I just thought up, which wasn't actually one of those earlier ideas :P. But hopefully, this should give you an idea of what I'm going for.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #33 on: August 10, 2011, 06:17:44 AM »
Given that you have already released at least 5 full levelsets, I think all this means is that you have already used up a lot of your good ideas, is all. ;P And yeah, turning single standalone glitches and tricks into full levels can be tough. :-\

Anyway, not bad, although with such limited skills, if you have been exposed to the trick before (eg. in one of tseug's levels), it's not too hard to work this out.  Quite a bit of trial and error though (just like in tseug's).

Offline Clam

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Re: ideas
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2011, 08:40:57 AM »
Quote
I think all this means is that you have already used up a lot of your good ideas, is all.

Well, creating original levels gets harder with each one that gets released, I guess ;). That's why I thought of making levels with glitches - some haven't been known for long, so there's still the chance to build original levels around them. I have some ideas (albeit vague), so it's surely worth at least trying to make them into levels.


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Quite a bit of trial and error though (just like in tseug's).

Hmm, that's not ideal either. But, like the pixel-precision needed with some glitches, this isn't really avoidable. I'm aware that levels requiring glitches or obscure tricks levels don't appeal to everyone anyway. Just be glad I didn't ramp up the trial and error even further by squeezing you on the time limit. Like tseug's :P


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with such limited skills, if you have been exposed to the trick before (eg. in one of tseug's levels), it's not too hard to work this out.

I thought I did a reasonable job of hiding it, actually. I did consider concealing it further by adding a section where you need a lot of digging skills, and you'd find yourself a basher short unless you did the first bit right. But I happened upon another way of diverting the player - speaking of which, here's a question for anyone who's solved the level:

Quote from: Question
How long did you spend tying to mine through the right side of the level before finding the actual trick?

Online Simon

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Re: ideas
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2011, 09:47:40 AM »
That's why I thought of making levels with glitches
It may be a trick, but not a glitch. (Works in Lix.)

Quote from: Question
How long did you spend tying to mine through the right side of the level before finding the actual trick?
2 or 3 times. And I tried to excavate hidden exits twice as well. geoo considered my attempts to be quality middle-night entertainment.

-- Simon

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2011, 10:52:39 AM »
I actually thought of the trick almost as soon as I look at the level.  That said, an actual first try or two quickly reminds me of the trial and error it can take, so very soon I purposely decided to take a detour and see:

Quote from: spoiler
...if there's a backroute or not, namely as you alluded to, mining at the right side of the level.  Unsurprisingly, that did not work out.  And then I resume to making the trick work.  I have to say it's at least a little less obvious than tseug's level what needs to be done here to make the setup work.

I think part of the "giveaway" for me is how the shape of the terrain clearly indicates you want to bash "twice" but only have one basher, plus there're 2 builders which seem more than you'd need for anything conventional.  And of course also the fact that you're talking about glitches and tricks in the thread, so one would expect something unconventional anyway to start off.

Offline Clam

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Re: ideas
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2011, 11:08:45 AM »
It may be a trick, but not a glitch.

Oh, I meant most of my ideas are glitches, even if that one isn't. Sorry if that wasn't clear :)


I actually thought of the trick almost as soon as I look at the level.

I guess that's to be expected from an experienced player such as yourself :). But to some players, it looks like you don't have enough skills, and the level seems impossible. That, to me, is a sign of a good level.

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2011, 11:23:07 AM »
I guess that's to be expected from an experienced player such as yourself :). But to some players, it looks like you don't have enough skills, and the level seems impossible. That, to me, is a sign of a good level.

Yeah, I agree, it is definitely a very good trick that's not glitchy, yet unless you've thought about it previously it's far from obvious.

I think actually part of the reason I'm so familiar with it, is because ages ago I had visions to create a level myself featuring it, that is until tseug beat me to the punch with his level. :-\  Maybe I'll still try to create what I envisioned some day (despite the trick being so dated by now), it would be a more elaborate and dramatic use of the trick than previously featured, with more red errings to invite people down the wrong paths. :evil:  (Then again, this description is probably more than enough to give someone a clear picture of what I have in mind. :-\)

Offline geoo

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Re: ideas
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2011, 11:31:53 AM »
Quote
I thought I did a reasonable job of hiding it, actually. I did consider concealing it further by adding a section where you need a lot of digging skills, and you'd find yourself a basher short unless you did the first bit right. But I happened upon another way of diverting the player - speaking of which, here's a question for anyone who's solved the level:
Being already familiar with the trick from playing and making a level employing it, I found it to be pretty much in-your-face. (Simon looked for the hidden exit though :P) I immediately saw it and went on to execute it, but I guess to people not familiar with the trick it's quite perfect: It's not the only thing you can try, but after some examination the level probably looks 'impossible' enough to resort to non-standard ideas.
What I really liked about the level though was that it did not require trial and error for me (...unlike tseug's or my level, ugh): I got it right at my second try in Lemmix, and retrying to see whether it works in Lix I got it at my first try. I think there's a lot of leeway in the skill placement to still make it work. Just like the execution, the design is also very nice and clean.

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I think actually part of the reason I'm so familiar with it, is because ages ago I had visions to create a level myself featuring it, that is until tseug beat me to the punch with his level. :-\  Maybe I'll still try to create what I envisioned some day (despite the trick being so dated by now), it would be a more elaborate and dramatic use of the trick than previously featured, with more red errings to invite people down the wrong paths. :evil:  (Then again, this description is probably more than enough to give someone a clear picture of what I have in mind. :-\)
I find your posts increasingly ironic for some certain reason. :P
More dramatic...I bet you're gonna make it involve blockers somehow. :P


I think we shouldn't ingore Nortaneous' levels, even though the second one required some bomber timing and had a trap somewhat hidden before the exit, I think the idea was nicely hidden within the terrain. For the first one, my solution is probably a backroute, as I go through the ceiling without bombers and save 8/10.

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2011, 04:03:57 PM »
Am I at least on the right track with Clam's level here? I can't get the basher to go any lower. Hopefully you can see where I placed the bashers – I still can't run Lemmix on this machine, so watching or recording replays will have to wait until I can go to my dad's and use his windows computer or something.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15543016/clampanic.png

Offline geoo

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Re: ideas
« Reply #41 on: August 12, 2011, 04:38:06 PM »
Nope, you're on the wrong track. I checked your method and it's possible to get two pixels further down with it, but that's still not sufficient.

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #42 on: August 12, 2011, 04:43:24 PM »
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Do you have to mine to the right and then somehow use builders so that there is enough terrain for the basher to keep bashing into the mined tunnel and then go down that way? I've stopped trying that now; too frustrating because I couldn't get the builders high enough..

Am I at least on the right track thinking that I have to use a miner to make the basher go lower?

Offline geoo

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Re: ideas
« Reply #43 on: August 12, 2011, 05:45:10 PM »
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Yes, you're correct with that idea.

You can use both miners to make a wider tunnel, and then getting the builders high enough above the floor is very easy.

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #44 on: August 12, 2011, 06:44:59 PM »
Quote
oh right... using the two miners was the missing link, because i was still using one to get the basher lower to begin with by glitching through the steel... my mind was kind of gesturing towards the answer, I think. oh well, done it now. :D

Offline Nortaneous

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Re: ideas
« Reply #45 on: August 14, 2011, 03:29:07 PM »
I think we shouldn't ingore Nortaneous' levels, even though the second one required some bomber timing and had a trap somewhat hidden before the exit, I think the idea was nicely hidden within the terrain. For the first one, my solution is probably a backroute, as I go through the ceiling without bombers and save 8/10.
Yeah, that'd be a backroute. Looking at that level now, I really don't like it, but if I ever put it in a levelpack I'll raise the ceiling first.

The bomber timing in the second one isn't as bad in the solution I had in mind; I try to avoid bomber timing unless the bombers are climbing and the margin of error is increased.

Offline Clam

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Re: ideas
« Reply #46 on: August 16, 2011, 07:47:53 AM »
whenever I tried to make a level, I'd either end up with a demonstration of the trick rather than an actual puzzle, or a puzzle that would be okay but takes way too many pixel-perfect skill placements.

To show you what I mean, here's an example of each.

"Mental Block" is a demonstration (and, I'm sure you'll agree) a pretty neat one at that. But the level practically solves itself. It's the sort of thing you'd see in the Level Design Game, rather than a Lemmix levelpack.

"Now (ab)use miners and climbers" is a puzzle, and then some. But by my count (i.e. unless there's a backroute), there are 17 skill assignments that require exact placement. That's simply not fun, unless you have a frame-advance tool like ccexplore's modified LemmixPlayer (plus full knowledge of miner glitches of course ;)).

Both levels also show another bad habit of mine - I tend to get carried away with aesthetics before I've finished making the level. This makes it difficult to make changes to important parts of the level, since I'd then have to redo the decorations. It's not really difficult to change things around in Lemmix - it's more of a "mental block" :P - but it does hold me back at times. Then again, this may be unavoidable - if you release a boring-looking but functional level, people will complain that it "needs decoration"; if you make a nice-looking level, you risk having to redecorate it if someone finds a backroute. Maybe that's another topic entirely. :-\

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #47 on: August 16, 2011, 10:45:03 AM »
"Mental Block" is a demonstration (and, I'm sure you'll agree) a pretty neat one at that. But the level practically solves itself. It's the sort of thing you'd see in the Level Design Game, rather than a Lemmix levelpack.

I guess the worst critics are always ourselves. :P I still find it enjoyable to solve the level.  Yes, I guess it's more like a level design game outcome, and true, there aren't a lot of other plausible non-solutions to try.  But I still did find myself thinking at least a little in solving the puzzle, and if anything it's much less trial and error than how I did your "panic room".  The key idea may not be new but as you said, it's a pretty neat demonstration, very elegant visually and logically.

I would argue that this level can very reasonably be placed in the early part of a levelset not aimed at people with expert knowledge of glitches and other detailed game-mechanics knowledge.  It is a level in a levelset that you might consider replacing with something else if you do come up with something far better, but still a worthy keeper if you don't. 8)

As for that other level, I have to admit your own description is not helping. ;P :-\ I haven't even looked at it yet but will at least do that at some later time.  I hope the solution is at least as epic as some of the challenge solutions we've seen, even if it's unavoidably horrendous to execute.

Online Simon

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Re: ideas
« Reply #48 on: August 16, 2011, 11:05:23 AM »
Yeah, Mental Block is a great level. I solved it after thinking about it for a short while, which is a fresh difference -- usually, geoo is first in figuring out level solutions.

geoo (while thinking how to save a basher): I can also lead them into the machine! (the grinding wheel trap)
geoo: Maybe I should sleep over it.
geoo: What a lame butt. (the basher)
geoo: Now my timing is for the butt.
geoo: Oooh! I'll save even more! (than the 12 of 16). Naaah, maybe not. Stop! STOP, you bums!

Alright, now he has saved 13 out of 16, and has a basher left. Well done! Clam, go find && fix backroute! geoo can give you the lemmix replay, or link it in IRC if you don't find the backroute yourself.

-- Simon

Offline Clam

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Re: ideas
« Reply #49 on: August 16, 2011, 11:09:57 AM »
I guess the worst critics are always ourselves. :P I still find it enjoyable to solve the level. [...]

Well, I prefer for the challenge to be in finding a solution, not executing it. The best levels are those that keep you guessing for a while. But if the level is fun enough as it is (hard to say myself, since I made the thing ;)), then maybe it's best not to force it to be something different.

I do wonder if my patented (:P) lemming-merging device could be useful in other levels. I'm quite proud of it :D. I've been toying with this level for ages, and that little contraption really made the whole level come together.

edit: oops, dumb backroute, will fix soon :XD:

Offline ccexplore

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Re: ideas
« Reply #50 on: August 16, 2011, 11:35:44 AM »
It doesn't actually sound like a backroute to me.  Doesn't the level allow for <removed to avoid unnecessary hints> if you so choose?  Here, let me describe my solution:

Quote from: spoiler
Bomb after everyone has come out.  One lemming bash while you set everyone else to be a blocker.  Now, if you are really good with the timing, as the blockers are released one by one, I can conceive that you might be able to get them to all end up in sync, or at least close enough, so that after they all end up in the second "compression pit" and is later released via 2nd bomber, they all go in the same direction as the direction they went after the first bombing.  This would then allow you to only set a blocker at the bottom-most platform on just one end rather than both ends (saving one more lemming), and to only do lower bashing on one of the two halves (using one less basher).  But if you don't want to bother with that, you still have enough skills to pass the level saving 12/16.

In the meanwhile, maybe I will take a second look and see if I could backroute the level after all. :evil: I did try a few things first but none succeeded.

[edit: haha, yeah I think I see what they might've done :P]

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #51 on: August 16, 2011, 02:59:44 PM »
Is this the backroute? (Again, I can't play lemmix replays on my computer at the moment)

Basically, bombing before you reach the pit in such a way that he breaks out of the pit but not through the floor. Bomber timing. I didn't actually manage to finish the level because I ended up using too many blockers, but this at least seems likely.

Offline geoo

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Re: ideas
« Reply #52 on: August 16, 2011, 03:07:30 PM »
Ok, I just realized why I was missing a basher in 'Mental Blockade' at first: I assigned the bomber to some lemming in the middle (instead of the last or the first lemming), and therefore the group split up and one half went left and the other half went right at the start. That's pretty much the only reason I searched for an alternative solution, resulting in the backroute.
Very nicely designed level (both aesthetically and solution-wise), and it took me quite a bit of thought, though that might be attributed to a notable portion to the fact that my lemmings went both left and right at the beginning, because without that, the basic idea yields the full solution pretty directly I guess.

'Now (ab)use miners and climbers' turned into a hardcore glitch and grind fest, but it was very satisfying to finally solve it.

Offline Clam

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Re: ideas
« Reply #53 on: August 16, 2011, 10:40:06 PM »
Here, let me describe my solution:

Considering the difficulty and tedium in doing all that just to save one more lemming, I think I'll leave that in. It doesn't take away from the level like these other backroutes do.


Is this the backroute?

That's a backroute. It should be easily fixed by shifting a few platforms (in particular, shifting the bottom of the second holding cell up by one). Solving the level from that point should be easy. The backroute is much more obvious than these two...


Ok, I just realized why I was missing a basher in 'Mental Blockade' at first: I assigned the bomber to some lemming in the middle (instead of the last or the first lemming), and therefore the group split up and one half went left and the other half went right at the start.

Hmm, somehow I forgot that was even possible. But since it doesn't actually cause the backroute (only lead inquisitive minds to find one, if it exists), it's not a major issue. What it might do, however, is confuse players to think the lemmings are supposed to split up like that, and make the level appear unsolvable. Seems unlikely though. *shrugs*


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'Now (ab)use miners and climbers' turned into a hardcore glitch and grind fest, but it was very satisfying to finally solve it.

Oh wow, someone actually solved it. Good job :thumbsup:. It's not the same as my solution (which is attached, in case anyone's curious), but it's still hardcore glitchy enough for my liking :D. The point of the level is getting a lemming across the top to the exit, by whatever means (which will invariably involve miner glitches). Good job working in the climber-overhang glitch as well, even I didn't manage to do that :P

Offline finlay

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Re: ideas
« Reply #54 on: August 16, 2011, 11:14:18 PM »
I just solved it using the backroute but slightly different: you can bomb in the second holding cell in such a way that the lemmings can walk through a widened hole in the top of the cell and not die from the fall. You should be able to remove the backroute by taking out the two floating platforms beneath the holding cell that are separated by 1 pixel. Sorry, but I didn't take a screeny this time. Should have.

Offline Clam

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Re: ideas
« Reply #55 on: August 16, 2011, 11:21:00 PM »
^ No need to worry, I've got that covered. The attached level should fix the backroutes (aside from the minor one ccexplore mentioned).

I can't remove those platforms - they're an essential component of the Lemming Merging Device (TM) ;)

Offline geoo

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Re: ideas
« Reply #56 on: August 17, 2011, 02:20:10 AM »
Oh wow, someone actually solved it. Good job :thumbsup:. It's not the same as my solution (which is attached, in case anyone's curious), but it's still hardcore glitchy enough for my liking :D. The point of the level is getting a lemming across the top to the exit, by whatever means (which will invariably involve miner glitches). Good job working in the climber-overhang glitch as well, even I didn't manage to do that :P
Nicely efficient way for getting through the second pillar, didn't see this one.
I also used the glitch you used at the start (blocking miner during mid-stroke to glitch through floor while leaving it intact) at some point for the lower central pillar (at its top), but mining cleanly through it turned out more efficient.
Pretty elegantly used there at the start. And I somehow didn't manage to send 2 over the second gap when I sent only 3 there to start with, you're pretty efficient.