ideas

[finlay]

Another one (turns out I do seem to be coming up with ideas occasionally), although I wouldn't be surprised if you've seen something like it before... have a try, anyway... and tell me if you can find more than one solution... Also, other people can feel free to try them - I only seem to be getting replies from cc... I know it's not exactly busy here though, haha!

[Gronkling]

My lemmix refused to open that level for some reason so i've attached a video of a lemmini replay.

I used all the skills so it might be the intended route. Also it's a very good level with a nice design and concept! 

[geoo]

I got a solution that doesn't use the bashers or blocker (so I guess I backrouted it):

Have the last lemming of the three dig at the top of the mountain all the way down into the chamber. Have the trapped lemming climb up the digger's tunnel and as soon as he reached the top, dig again (thus widening the digger's tunnel). Have the other lemming also dig after he's reached the height of the other (active) digger, and dig after surpassing him, widening the tunnel even further, and creating a ledge that prevents the climbers from exiting to the left. Both will hit steel, and once they are facing right again, have the first one build over the diggers tunnel making path to the right. Have them climb up and into the exit.

I really like the idea of the level, making good use of climbers and using only very few lemmings. Also an almost builder-less level. The digging took a bit long, but I think that's specific to my solution. Even though I ended up with skills left over, it wasn't trivial to come up with a solution.

[ccexplore]

Yeah, yours isn't the same solution as mine – there is that slight problem in that I don't quite know how to anticipate the fact that bashers don't always stop when you want them to! I thought that a basher on the second level would only go through the central pillar.

Yeah, it's almost certainly a bug in the basher programming for PC Lemmings (and actually a good number of other ports including Amiga, although I do know the Mac version doesn't have this).  The effect of it is that it only checks for "stop if nothing ahead" every other stroke instead of on every stroke.  In other words, excepting for steel or falling, you'll find that bashers always stop on an odd number of bash strokes.  In your case, it means that if I take care to not completely bash through the thin central pillar during the first bash stroke, I will get 2 more bash strokes, instead of just the 2nd one if the bug wasn't present.  Also, the game checks for terrain just slightly beyond the end of what the lemming just bashed, so even though my 3rd stroke didn't actually take out any terrain, the fact that it brought the lemming close enough to more terrain ahead is enough for it to continue bashing.

By the way, did you build a step on the rocky floor there, where there's a yellow dot? You shouldn't have needed to...

Yeah, good catch, that was unnecessary.

Also, other people can feel free to try them - I only seem to be getting replies from cc... I know it's not exactly busy here though, haha!

I know each time I downloaded your stuff the download count was already greater than 1 before I even downloaded, so other people have been trying them out.  I think I'm just chattier than most.   [edit: and this time many more replied, in fact while I'm in the middle of writing this!]

Anyway, great puzzle for your new level! The limited skills and the steel make it pretty clear roughly how the solution would go, but it took a while before I was able to put it all together.  Actually, I do have one leftover digger, so I probably didn't quite do it the way you envisioned.  I've attached screenshots of my solution in the attached ZIP file.

I also love the way you simulate a lone stranded lemming by an invisible entrance trapdoor, and to have that area off-screen from the initial view so that it looks like the lemming was stranded there all along, rather than seeing it magically come out of thin air.

[finlay]

Yeah, yours isn't the same solution as mine – there is that slight problem in that I don't quite know how to anticipate the fact that bashers don't always stop when you want them to! I thought that a basher on the second level would only go through the central pillar.

Yeah, it's almost certainly a bug in the basher programming for PC Lemmings (and actually a good number of other ports including Amiga, although I do know the Mac version doesn't have this).  The effect of it is that it only checks for "stop if nothing ahead" every other stroke instead of on every stroke.  In other words, excepting for steel or falling, you'll find that bashers always stop on an odd number of bash strokes.  In your case, it means that if I take care to not completely bash through the thin central pillar during the first bash stroke, I will get 2 more bash strokes, instead of just the 2nd one if the bug wasn't present.  Also, the game checks for terrain just slightly beyond the end of what the lemming just bashed, so even though my 3rd stroke didn't actually take out any terrain, the fact that it brought the lemming close enough to more terrain ahead is enough for it to continue bashing.

Ah, you seem to know more about this than I do, but if it's not the way the mac version works, that might explain it. I haven't been testing it on that, though, because that involves a lot more effort, like transferring it to an older computer. I did change the terrain slightly at my end and took out the brick on the right of the pole on the second floor because I only put it in to make the thing symmetrical... Haven't tested it though. Sounds like it probably won't make any difference.

As for this level, the three of you seem to have come up with similar-but-slightly-different solutions which aren't the same as my one. But in a way, I quite like that. Needs more testing, anyway.

[finlay]

Here is a rubbish level i came up with. Accordingly, i have called it 'rubbish.lvl'. Please have a go.

Also tell me your solution – I've managed to remove all the ways to backroute this that I've seen, but I wouldn't be surprised if you find one that passed me over. It's a simple level, though, not a lot to it. It might not be obvious if you get the right solution whether it's meant to be a backroute or not, that's the only problem with this approach...

[ccexplore]

Not rubbish at all, it looks innocent and then you find out the hidden dangers, and then you really need to start using your brain.

I've attached a zipped screenshot of my solution.  I have to wonder a little if it's intended, since I needed to be fairly precise in the location of some of the skill assignments, in order for the solution to work out.  But it's possible this is an unfortunate side effect of the level having been adjusted to eliminate backroutes?

[finlay]

Yay, it is the intended solution. I actually added in the terrain at the top (and the stairs and the water) as decoration because the level was looking a bit stark (and also to try and prevent one from building straight from entrance to exit, although I tested the level without the terrain at the top and 3 bridges falls just short – but you can always extend them, so that argument's invalid...), and it's sort of a happy coincidence that it looks like you can build up to the block and solve the level that way, but the bridge from the block to the exit also falls short and you can only solve it by losing more than 2 lemmings... Another happy coincidence was the fact that if you build a bridge from the entrance side and don't dig through it, your lemmings die...

So yeah, that was always the intended solution – it's precise because there's not really any other way of pulling it off.

I guess I don't imagine that I would like this level myself if I was given it as a level to play by someone else because I get frustrated at levels that require a lot of trial and error, so I feel like I'm copping out by adding "fake" difficulty. Meh. Oh and the other reason for calling it rubbish.lvl is because it's better than calling it SPIKES.LVL which was the original title...

Also, I can't really think of a better in-game title for it – I just ended up typing nonsense into the level name field as you may have noticed... Glad you enjoyed it, anyway.

Incidentally, I think I found that a climber explodes in roughly the length of one of the brown blocks, if that helps. You probably knew that already, though.

Also, because I realise I haven't posted it yet, this is the beginning of my intended solution to RESCUE.LVL (the previous one): http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15543016/rescuescreenshot.png It's a bit different from the ones you guys posted, but as I say, I quite liked your solutions. (after the two climbers turn back, the blocker is released by the lemming on the left)

[finlay]

Another flash of inspiration. (Couldn't think of a snappy name for the LVL file though so it's just today's date)

I don't think it should be too difficult to beat, so try and beat it in 1 minute instead.

[ccexplore]

Awesome!  Your puzzles are get better and better each time!

Good quality logic puzzles like yours help offset statements like this:

whereas traditional methods were mostly exhausted by the time I got here.

( Ok, to be fair, Clam was talking about challenge solutions to the original levels not custom levels, and with those there's definitely some truth to what he said.)

I've attached a screenshot of my solution.  I'm pretty sure there aren't any backroutes (of course, now that I've said it, I can just see Clam coming up with something I completely overlooked...... )

[ccexplore]

Also like to add that in the course of solving your level, it led me to a different idea that, while probably has been featured in some form in some custom level out there, it's something I can use in my own levels.  Not that I've worked on any levels for a long long time though... Maybe one day...

[finlay]

I tried very carefully to get rid of backroutes. I couldn't think of any either. In some ways I think it'd be quite cool if someone comes up with a backroute solution.

I'm gonna link you to the screenshot of me doing it in less than one minute (just to prove it's possible). It's not much different

you basically have to be a lot tighter with timing and placement of the left blocker and you may have to employ the trick where you pause at the beginning and get a few seconds extra, which is basically why i didn't make the level require 1 minute. I'm sure it'd be possible to make things slightly closer together or something.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/15543016/1minutesolution.png

Also, for those of you who've played L3D, the level was sort-of inspired by Mayhem 19 (probably my favourite). But of course, L3D levels are very difficult to translate to 2D so it's pretty much nothing like that anymore, but a few key elements are there like climbing over a one-way wall, and bombing near the end.

[Clam]

Thanks finlay for bumping this; somehow I missed these levels until now.

I found a backroute (or, at least, a very easy solution) to "rubbish.lvl":

Dig down about half the height of the tile that the lemmings start on (using blockers to hold the crowd), then build across to the exit platform. Release the crowd and make all lemmings climbers.

Assuming it doesn't wreck the intended solution (btw, is cc's solution the intended one?), you can fix this by simply moving the exit platform to the right, so you need more than 3 builders to get across.

Other than that, my solutions aren't any different to the ones posted here. I like these levels, they're tricky enough to make you stop and think, but painless to execute once you find the trick. And I agree with ccexplore, these levels are getting better as you go on

[finlay]

Thanks finlay for bumping this; somehow I missed these levels until now.

I found a backroute (or, at least, a very easy solution) to "rubbish.lvl":

Dig down about half the height of the tile that the lemmings start on (using blockers to hold the crowd), then build across to the exit platform. Release the crowd and make all lemmings climbers.

Assuming it doesn't wreck the intended solution (btw, is cc's solution the intended one?), you can fix this by simply moving the exit platform to the right, so you need more than 3 builders to get across.

Correct, he did it the intended way. I thought I'd closed the backroute of building over the gap with the hanging block. For some reason I always forget that one can stretch bridges (if you don't stretch the bridge, it doesn't quite make it – I did try that with a version of the level without the hanging block). And for some reason, digging before building didn't occur to me. I'm now wondering if i can be bothered actually changing it. Maybe another day, say if I put together a bunch of levels into a pack or something. (I have a small number of levels that I haven't bothered putting on here yet.)

Other than that, my solutions aren't any different to the ones posted here. I like these levels, they're tricky enough to make you stop and think, but painless to execute once you find the trick. And I agree with ccexplore, these levels are getting better as you go on

thanks
I would be quite interested to see how you did the mountain rescue level, actually.

[Clam]

I did the rescue level by the intended method first, but I have since found another way, which differs from geoo's and ccexplore's as well. I've attached a screenshot showing the crucial part (this uses 2 bashers and 2 diggers). The rest is similar to the intended solution.