Here's my attempt to make exits using colors from the entrance. Wood exit.

The biggest difference I see between the digger-blocker and the basher-blocker interaction is that the digger does not get canceled, whereas the basher gets canceled by the blocker. This makes a huge difference.

Also the digger case always ends up with the same scenario of the digger turning direction, whereas the basher case may end up with all possible outcomes depending on when/where the blocker is set. This is certainly why most people tend to dislike it : the game is all about actions and their consequences, so when very similar looking actions result in very different consequences, players may get upset.

Oh well, sorry to derail Pieuw's thread, we were just searching for another way to solve The Strange Relics of Lemnos' talisman.

Quote from: JawaJuice on February 27, 2026, 02:59:28 PMYeah, that's true. Unlike the basher, it's not visually obvious that the digger has changed directions, but you're right, he has. I suppose it does make sense then! It's odd then that no-one has an issue with the digger-blocker trick, but everyone dislikes basher-blocker.

For starters, it's simply not true that no-one has an issue with digger-blocker turnaround; this mechanic has provoked discussion before, and some have felt it to be unfair.

But more importantly (in my view), there is a huge difference between the two mechanics. If a digger and a blocker overlap, there's no reason why the digger would not be able to remove the terrain under the blocker, freeing him. That part isn't in question; what is in question is whether the digger should turn -- and that he should turn is implied as a special case of "blockers can turn any lemming". With the basher-blocker trick, it's obvious that the basher should turn, and that isn't in question; what is in question is whether the basher should also be able to free the blocker at the same time. And that is not easily answerable as a special case of any general mechanic.

One reason why many of us (including me) dislike the mechanic and consider it more of a bug is that it is very precise, and that makes it hard for new players to discover, which means any level relying on it is potentially unfair.

In addition, this is a mechanic that was never in the original games, whereas digger-blocker turnaround is in most (maybe all?) versions of original Lemmings. It was never necessary for solving the original levels, but it was always possible, and was discovered during challenges (in particular, the first solution to maximum saved on Wild 15).

Quote from: JawaJuice on February 27, 2026, 02:59:28 PM

Quote from: Pieuw on February 27, 2026, 01:47:11 PMRegarding the basher/blocker trick, doesn't it work similarly to the digger/blocker one? The blocker being canceled right away, making the worker turn around immediately.

Yeah, that's true. Unlike the basher, it's not visually obvious that the digger has changed directions, but you're right, he has. I suppose it does make sense then! It's odd then that no-one has an issue with the digger-blocker trick, but everyone dislikes basher-blocker.

I would say the main gripe here is that the basher-blocker behavior is pixel precise and a real hassel to reproduce and it is not that logical that the basher removes terrain under the blocker while he should already be turned (or the blocker turns the basher when he should already be freed).

Digger-blocker on the other hand is mechanically consistent and not very precise. Blocker has been placed down -> digger is inside the blockers trigger and gets turned if he is looking in the other direction -> digger releases blocker. Only the visual confirmation is missing as you already mentioned. But otherwise it follows the rule that the blocker turns everything facing the other way in its designated area.
And here the basher-blocker confusion is actually resolved! If you place the blocker right when the digger digs further the blocker gets instantly released and does not turn the digger in the same frame as I recall!

Quote from: Pieuw on February 27, 2026, 01:47:11 PMRegarding the basher/blocker trick, doesn't it work similarly to the digger/blocker one? The blocker being canceled right away, making the worker turn around immediately.

Yeah, that's true. Unlike the basher, it's not visually obvious that the digger has changed directions, but you're right, he has. I suppose it does make sense then! It's odd then that no-one has an issue with the digger-blocker trick, but everyone dislikes basher-blocker.

Thank you Guigui! I will take a look at those as soon as possible, but I'll be busy this weekend.

Regarding the basher/blocker trick, doesn't it work similarly to the digger/blocker one? The blocker being canceled right away, making the worker turn around immediately.

You both have the right general idea about Lemnos but there's no need for any precision trick like this one. This is true for all the others talismans too

Quote from: namida on February 27, 2026, 02:28:51 AMIt occurs to me that you've basically reinvented namida_machine's exit at this point:

Heh, unintented coincidence.

The exit I posted is intended as a baseline, not a finished product. I imagine it'll be recoloured to something a bit less monochrome-looking.

Open to ideas. Hopefully some of our better artists (Jeremy, Dex, Lana, Giga, Turrican, Zanzindorf, et al.) will have a go at making something...

Hi all,

I've decided to go ahead and utilise Java's menu item icons to make the menu bar a bit more fun to look at.

However, my pixel art skills are nowhere near as good as some of the work I've seen done by people on this Forum, and any lemmings time I get at the moment is pretty much all going on Forum moderation and programming, so I'd really appreciate the help on this one.

There are 11 icons altogether. I'm open to ideas as to what exactly the icons should be, but here are some ideas to get the ball rolling:

IconAbout - a book or a pair of glasses
IconCodes - a pair of sunglasses or a Sherlock Holmes hat
IconEntrance - this should definitely be an entrance hatch
IconExit - this should definitely be an exit
IconHotkeys - an inverted T-shape with arrows (arrow keys layout)
IconMouse - a mouse
IconOptions - a cog
IconPlayers - Cluedo tokens
IconReplay - a clapper board
IconRestart - a reload arrow
IconStyles - a folder with an arrow pointing into it (this is for "Update Styles")

I've made some very basic versions of the above, please feel free to edit them or completely recreate them.

Size-wise, they should be no larger than about 24(h)x32(w), but if you can make really great looking 32x32 icons, that's fine. The menu items automatically resize according to the icons anyway.

So yeah, if you fancy giving this a go, please download the .zip and see what you can come up with!

Quote from: Guigui on February 27, 2026, 01:07:14 AMI think I did the same blocker-basher weird thing in The Strange Relics of Lemnos. Must say I have no idea how it works exactly, my method is : just flood the basher area, make a blocker above the ground before the basher, and hope for both of them to cancel.

Curious to know what the intended solution is for this talisman, I can see no other way to the exit with minimal builders than the whole revolution around the level, and I have no idea how to stop this basher w/o the weird blocker trick. Have you found something else JawaJuice ?

Nope! I thought I'd wait for Pieuw's updated level but I agree with you - I don't see any other way to do this level with a single builder other than sending them around the houses and utilizing the basher-blocker trick to prevent the guy bashing all the way through without wasting a builder to stop him (because you need the builder later). Incidentally, the trick works by having a lemming that's about to have the ground bashed from under his feet assigned a blocker, which means that he then reverts to a standard walker as the bash cycle is completed, whilst simultaneously turning the basher around. You flood the area because it's very hard to get a lemming in just the right position to turn him into a blocker, so this maximizes the chance of hitting the right frame. I'm not really sure why it even works from a physics perspective, but it does - it's probably debatable whether it's a glitch rather than a trick. Most level creators seem to hate it, so as I say, I usually know it will be deemed a backroute if it's part of my solution. Sometimes though (like here), I can see no alternative!

No real opinion on this so far here, though I'd say that putting default entrance and exit side by side would definitely help choosing the latter.