Thanks for your suggestion.

This is definitely a problem I recognise. I often find myself having to manually move pieces out of the way to get to the piece I actually want, then move the pieces back to their original position afterwards. We definitely need a solution to this, for sure.

The "select pieces below" hotkey (Alt + LMB by default) does work some of the time, but becomes difficult or impossible to use properly when there are multiple overlaying pieces. It's here in the Hotkey Config btw, should you wish to remap it to something else (Tools > Configure Hotkeys):



We can do better than this though.

To respond to your suggestion: I'm imagining that by "layers system" you mean some way of adding pieces to a base layer, then add a new layer and add more pieces there, then another layer and add more pieces there, etc. Then, be able to switch between the layers as needed. If this is what you mean, then I'm not sure I agree that a layers system is the best way to solve this problem, as it would overcomplicate rendering and give the user more UI stuff to keep track of. It just about works for image editing, but I don't think it would be a good fit for a level editor tbh.

However, since the main concern seems to be more with being able to select a certain piece more easily, there are definitely other ways we can achieve this. So, I've re-titled the topic accordingly and we can explore the various options.

To respond to some specifics in your original post:

Quote from: roltemurto on April 03, 2026, 02:49:08 AMFor my particular problem; an option to Show/Hide Steel (like any other layer) would solve it immediately.
Steel is the only asset type that hasn't got an option to hide/show.

Good shout. I'll add Show/Hide Steel in the next update for sure.

Quote from: roltemurto on April 03, 2026, 02:49:08 AMAn option in the settings or a modifier key press; that simply allow bypassing the alpha channel when selecting, would also save me right now.

This one could be done, but then the selection rectangle becomes somewhat redundant. We'd need to wrap the solid pixels with an exact outline (think 'magic wand' selection in image editors) and have that be the selectable area: not trivial to implement by any means, and still doesn't always guarantee selectability (which is what we're trying to achieve here). It's an interesting idea, though, and could be good for piece selection in general. Maybe one to come back to later.

Quote from: roltemurto on April 03, 2026, 02:49:08 AMWhat would be a QoL update is; an actual toggle button to let the cursor prioritize and select the layer at the back/behind.

This is closer. A hotkey that allows the player to 'walk' the selection through the pieces currently under the cursor could be extremely useful. Using the cursor location as a reference, hold the hotkey, and click the LMB until the piece you want is selected. This could solve the problem entirely, and wouldn't be too difficult to implement. 'Grab lowest' and 'grab highest' could also be done.

Quote from: roltemurto on April 03, 2026, 02:49:08 AMWhat would be an even better addition; is the layer system implementation;
Currently there is no way to tell how many layers are there or which and what layers are currently on the map.
...
If there was a file list ... that would allow...

The render layers are (from lowest to highest): background, objects low, terrain (inc. steel), objects high, rulers. Each piece is then drawn to its own 'layer' within that system, ordered by index. To implement a separate 'layers' system, this framework would have to be duplicated, which could get messy very quickly.

Conversely, the "asset list" you've hinted at is an interesting idea that could work perfectly alongside what's already there. We could have a pop-up list (which can be closed or opened at any time) which simply lists every piece active in the level, in index order and with details such as location, render layer, whether it's an eraser piece, etc. Clicking a piece on the list could then select it in the level arranger (and vice versa). This could work, for sure, and would be much simpler to implement and maintain than a layers system. "Move Up", "Move Down" and "Delete" buttons could also be added for convenience.

Quote from: roltemurto on April 03, 2026, 02:49:08 AMThis also makes it impossible to clean/delete an asset that has been removed/changed from the style folder,
because there is no way to select it once the editor is restarted, the level is reloaded or simply the styles has been refreshed.

Not so. Missing pieces can be deleted by simply opening a level that contains missing pieces; the Editor will identify them, and they can then be deleted by choosing "Delete Missing Pieces" from the status bar menu. If you're not seeing the status bar message when you open a level with missing pieces, then this could be a bug. This is what you should see:



Please let me know if you do not see this message when opening a level with missing pieces. You should also see it after refreshing styles (if a piece becomes missing due to the refresh).

Quote from: roltemurto on April 03, 2026, 02:49:08 AMI hope I was able to explain the situation that I am struggling with.

Absolutely, and it's something that I too struggle with now and again. You've given me a nudge to finally do something about it!

I imagine that this error probably is fixed by the RC, in which case I'll mark this as resolved but will keep the topic open in case it does come up again.

I will be away at my hometown over the next few days during easter. 

Quote from: Proxima on April 03, 2026, 04:32:30 PMThe version of "The Hotel in Hell" in RotL v4 is a very old one with no backroute fixes, since the fixing work was done almost entirely in the Lix version.

I'm wrong; I was misled by kaywhyn's recent video of the SuperLemmini version, which has the old level for some reason. NL v4 does have the updated version, which is the same as the one I've attached here.

The version you see in the video is based on the level in RotL v2.0 for Very Old Formats NL. Hence the 2.0 in the video title Currently, there's no easy and fast way to convert from New Formats NL to SuperLemmini, with the only way presently is to manually recreate the level in the editor, which of course we want to avoid doing! Not to mention that isn't my current focus, especially as that was working off of someone else's SuperLemmini conversion of a pack. However, it's apparently possible to backport from New Formats to RetroLemmini, but I haven't tried that yet, so I don't know if it works.

Anyway, I'll likely post my level list of which ones should and shouldn't make the cut for v5 of RotL, as well as my thoughts on yours and mobius' level lists, later on when I'm able to

Quote from: mobius on April 03, 2026, 04:19:20 PM-Hotel in Hell (I recommend adding a little decoration if possible? It looks sparse compared to the original, from what I remember)

The version of "The Hotel in Hell" in RotL v4 is a very old one with no backroute fixes, since the fixing work was done almost entirely in the Lix version.

I'm wrong; I was misled by kaywhyn's recent video of the SuperLemmini version, which has the old level for some reason. NL v4 does have the updated version, which is the same as the one I've attached here.

In any case, for this level to be included, we will have to decide what to do about the trap (the level contains a triggered trap I added to the Fire style, which doesn't exist in the original style; that will be a problem when porting it to RetroLemmini).

my thoughts on levels to keep/remove:
(I initially thought this would be difficult but I just went through the entire pack very quickly and here's a list, without a ton of explination, I can give more if needed)

The first two ranks: There's a big question as to how should the pack begin and how easy should it be at first? That discussion will factor largely into how many/which easy level to keep or not.
When putting this together at every stage; the easy ranks were the hardest to compile because finding a diverse and good set of levels that 'eased' a new player into the game was not easy.


REMOVAL:
Please note: These are not levels I *want to get rid of* more so; levels I wouldn't mind seeing go if they were chosen.

-the level design game levels-
I included these because 1) We needed some easier levels to fill in the early ranks and 2) I wanted to include this interesting piece of forum history.

-the repeats-

-the "ghost" repeats-
these were levels (example: The Hedonist) which are easy repeats of the harder version which actually never made it into the pack and another decision which seems out of place in hindsight. They might make interesting levels in themselves but it probably adds confusion to anyone that sees the original elsewhere.

-Mikau Schekzen's levels
-Mind the gap
-10 is a magic number
-except for stand outs I may mention below; levels by Isu and Conway
-Everyone but the bomber
-you have been fooled
-The Aperture Science (this one was never backroute fixed I think)
-The Big Drop
-Dilemma
-Lemming Cliche
-discipline is essential
-except for standouts I may mention; levels by -H0ru5-
-levels by Hubbart (Hubert and Bart)
-Wish you had them?
-The Necromancer
-The Great Divide
-Herculems
-Small Ham Cubes
-Twice The same
-Feel the Pressure
-Food for the Gods
-Locked and Loaded (regardless of Ben Bryant's pack(this level suffers from backroutes and is totally out of place as the only level in the pack with a pick up skill, which doesn't fit the theme of being old mechanics only)).
-Increasing Step Heights
-Magic the Bombering
-Tilt



KEEP:
These are stand out levels (imo) I'd be sad to see go:

-Eeny Meeny Miny OH!
-Little Miner Puzzle (at least the most difficult version, if not all of them)
-Unidentified Lemming Object
-Use the grey matter
-Eight little problems
-Messy Routes
-sculpture maze
-Petit Fours
-someone must help us!
-its a long way up (part 2) (by finlay)
-Snowhere
-Niche
-Land of Linebreaks
-Please Save Us
-Clockwork Pink
-Behind Bars
-Changing of the Guards
-Try Climbing That
-Waltz in C Sharp
-Mass Lemmicide
-Rhapsofy in Blue
-Hotel in Hell (I recommend adding a little decoration if possible? It looks sparse compared to the original, from what I remember)
-One Step Off
-Use Your Tools Wisely
-Stuff in the Way
-Out of the Frying Pan
-Fall Guy

As I mentioned, I am playing through RotL v4 so as to form my own opinions on which levels are worth keeping and which not. At this stage, I would rather not write comments on every single level, so for this post, I will just keep a list of levels that I feel should be removed. And again, while I am taking a leadership role on level selection, everyone is welcome to contribute, so please feel free to speak up if you want to advocate for keeping any levels I've listed, or removing any I haven't!

1-10 Surrealism (Pieuw). 10-of-all repeat of "Utopia". We are leaning towards removing 10-of-all repeat levels, since we have enough 10-of-all levels even without repeats; and this is one of the weaker ones, as the solution is a very obvious bash then build to the exit.

1-20 Minesweeper Lemmings (Proxima). Another 20-of-all repeat of a later level, but also problematic because it uses the Minesweeper graphics set and is taller than default. We might end up dropping the later repeat as well for those reasons.

(1-23 Canopy Lemmings is a 10-of-all repeat that I am considering keeping, because the 99 release rate and getting down from the high branches make this an interesting challenge.)

1-36 Through the Liquidizer (Conway). I hate this level. You have to spam bashers to clump lemmings to get through some traps; there's nothing interesting about the solution and it's really tedious. I can't see that this belongs in any kind of "best of" compilation.

2-5 Clever mining (Hubert & Bart). Really easy and uninteresting solution, probably unintended since it doesn't use all the skills, but I don't know what the intended solution is or how it could be fixed.

2-20 Blood Furnace (timfoxxy). Uninteresting solution that leaves a lot of skills over. The level could perhaps be retooled as a 10-of-all filler level, but even for that, it's very plain-looking and I'm sure there are better picks.

2-25 Theory of a Dead Lem (t3tesla). Banal solution where you just do the most obvious thing.

2-28 Martyrdom (TOG). Another uninteresting solution and very plain-looking level.

2-32 Where do I dig next? (Minim). This is just a remake of "Hello John! Got a New Lemming?" (which wasn't available in NL at the time, but is now in Lemmings Redux).

2-39 Everyone but the bomber (tumbleweed). Very bland-looking level, and it's another "split 1 of each skill between several trapdoors", like 2-14 "Eight Little Problems" earlier; we don't need both.

It's time to finally get this started. After consulting with WillLem, kaywhyn and mobius about our plans for the new version of Revenge of the Lemmings (and a possible sequel pack), I've been put in charge of level selection and ordering. However, I don't want to do this entirely on my own; I want this version to be, as far as possible, something that everyone's happy with, so that it can be the final version and we won't feel the need for another re-selection ten years down the line.

Firstly, I'll start with an outline of the current situation.

* There are two versions of RotL I'm working from: version 2 and version 4 (as well as the RetroLemmini version, which is based on v4).
* v2 has 210 (7 x 30) levels; v4 has 240 (6 x 40). There are 113 levels in common to the two versions, thus a total of 337 levels between them (plus four that are only in RL).
* There is also a compilation of "RotL Outtakes", 232 levels that were considered for v4 but didn't make it in. Because these levels were already examined and rejected, there's less reason to consider them, but they are available if we need to make up the numbers, or if any of them are especially good.
* My goal is to split the pack into two packs of 4 x 30 = 120 levels each. Since we have more then 240 levels to choose from, not all will be selected. (The rest can be released as a new "Outtakes" pack so they don't just disappear.)
* The main reason why the level selection changed so much from v2 to v4 is that mobius wanted to remove all levels that are also found in MazuLems, Clammings and Insane Steve's World.

We will need to make a decision on this last point, so I've opened a poll. Should we go along with the removal of these duplicated levels, or restore them to the level pool? I'll do my best to sum up the pros and cons of each choice:

* In favour of keeping them: RotL is meant to be a snapshot of the best of the levels produced by the community in the pre-NeoLemmix era. Removing levels by three specific authors (many of which are excellent levels) goes against that goal.
* Other authors may have similar compilation packs made for them in the future, which would make it even more arbitrary that just these three get excluded from RotL. (weirdybeardy already has such a pack; one for Ben Bryant is in development.)
* The v4 levels that replace these may include levels that are not as good, and bring the overall quality of the pack down. (I am in the middle of playing through v4 so that I'll be better able to judge on this question.)
* The duplication argument doesn't entirely apply to RetroLemmini, since Clammings and Insane Steve's World are not available for RL (though MazuLems is).

* In favour of removing them: MazuLems, Clammings and Insane Steve's World are all available as separate packs for NeoLemmix, so NL players would have to play the same levels twice to get full completion.
* Removing them has allowed v4 to introduce a bunch of new levels, some of which are very high quality.
* Keeping them removed would make my task as pack compiler shorter and easier 

Oh, and just to make things clear, while I will take the outcome of the poll into account, it is not binding.

So I've decided to exclude the third rank that was planned for the pack. Rather, I'll be fixing up existing levels and adding more pizzazz to them as I go. Mainly graphics-wise, no changed solutions. Nuisance Level 19 "The Aquatic Ruins" will be slightly different to fix up a backroute. A v2.0 release will still happen.

Basically, I would need a lot of help to do a third rank. I am still learning how to make more difficult levels for future level packs. Armani is working on a pack of his own and may be too busy to make more levels for this pack. I have been unable to reach him, which is understandable. Thank you, Armani, for your great levels! It was a pleasure to work with you again.

Take care, folks!

Thank you for the kind words.

I can't speak for the whole team here, but my hope is that by putting in the work now, we'll reach a version we're happy to sign off on as the definitive final version so that no long-term maintenance is necessary (especially as the NL engine will now have no further updates). If more backroutes turn up later, we just accept that the pack isn't perfect.

One reason for this decision is that the pack is over 12 years old now and is a compilation of (mostly) even older levels; most of the authors aren't around to consult about intended solutions. There are some exceptions, and of course we can use our own judgement as to what backroutes should be prevented; but the ideal state of having a compilation of intended solutions to consult is unreachable.

Another is that I don't have the time or energy to put more into this pack than helping to make one more version, and I'd like it to be done so that I can move on and get back to finishing my own pack (which I have been promising to do for years at this point).