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V12.11 Skills / Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Last post by IchoTolot on Today at 05:00:24 pm »
I've taken a look at the solutions Strato's 3 levels now:


The slider confuses me here I must say. It only really turns around and gets a lemming down twice and that could be easily emulated with a slight level layout change:
Extending the water area to the area where he would land and give him a swimmer. Remove the ramp to the water pit so he can get out and a wall on the right so he can turn. That way it's secured that only the swimmer can turn there.
This would also make 1 builder not nessesary so it can be culled and make the level more backroute proofed.
The other 2 turnarounds at the spears and the builder cancel each other out and are just for looks.

Otherwise it nicely shows the spear serving as a ramp to land on for a shimmier. :)


The Creation

Again, the slider usage seems a bit basic here as it just turns around a lem 2 times and not even bringing him down on another level. You also need into invest another builder just for turnarounds! And this results in me breaking the level wide open - attached a replay. 8-)

I think using another grenader or a well thrown spearer could be more backroute proofed there and you can cull that 2nd builder + the stacker!


Thus spoke Zarathustra

This uses the slider better with the shimmier interaction. In general shimmiers tend to act well together with 3 of the 4 new skills. Although placing the big pillar at the right side just screams "simply glide into it to get down" instead of giving 2 extra shimmiers and the slider! This can be done by 1 glider if the terrain below is slightly extended.

But the slider shimmier transition is still one of the stronger points of the skill in my opinion.

The infinite holding pit at the bottom only would need 1 terrain block at the left and the top slider usage could be emulated with a lem jumping up again when he turned around at the right though.


All in all, you showed nice tricks with the slider but especially the turning around one has a major flaw in your examples: You need extra skills to make it happen and especially the case of using the builder only to turn around a slider has so many possibilities for exploits as extra builders are easily exploitable. And the turning around part can easily be emulated by so many other interaction or slight terrain changes. My replay here would serve as an example.

This could be improved thogh: I suggest if you use a skill only to turn around a slider, make the skill do something else on top of that! This way the slider interaction helps making another nessesary skill in the level even more important!

I think this rule could be used to make better levels highlighting the uniqueness of the slider! :)

Again, I take the slider over a new object any day! I just see that it still can easily substituted in many cases by existing behaviors so the better levels will likely find ways to highlight unique features without giving out extra skills that lead to easy exploits. Namida's "Pendantic Phaser" would be a good example here.

Your levels made very good showcases for the spearer and laserer though. Especially in combination with the shimmier. :)
NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Last post by kaywhyn on Today at 12:06:25 pm »
When only Maso 8 was mentioned, I kept wondering what level is this. Now that I took a quick look at it, yes, I 100% agree with both Shmolem and Swerdis that it is an extremely annoying level to pull off, especially when I first played through the pack on Lemmini many years ago. As I had mentioned a few times before, it's far worse on Lemmini due to no framestepping and skill shadows. Also, there are some really good levels that I ended up not liking as much as I should had only because of the execution difficulty that resulted in too many restarts, but this is more true with Pimolems than it was with Dovelems for me. Should be a much more enjoyable experience for me if and when I start playing Dovelems in NL. Just like both Shmolem and Swerdis said, it's obvious what needs to be done, just executing it in the middle area is frustrating. If anyone had mentioned the level title, like Pieuw did, I would had immediately remembered "Oh yes, that level! I remember I was very annoyed and frustrated when doing the solution." :evil:
V12.11 Skills / Re: [DISC][PLAYER] New skills general discussion
« Last post by Strato Incendus on Today at 11:53:12 am »
Yes, that is one possible backroute to "Microcosm". I guess I will eventually have to enforce the 2-Laserer solution and cut the Spearer from this particular level. ;)

"Thus spoke Zarathustra" was solved, as feared, with just one worker lemming instead of two. However, this is only possible due to the high ramp, which is needed as long as we have the current Slider-Swimmer behaviour. If this is changed, I can lower that ramp. If now, I'll have to dent the ceiling in such a way that you can't jump off the ramp to reach for the ceiling.

Have you seen my level "The Creation"? It wasn't in your "Strato Exp Skills levels" ZIP. And that one should definitely need the Spearer to work.
Congratulations for being the first one to beat the Old-Formats version, kaywhyn! :thumbsup:

That gargantuan pack was definitely a one-off on my part. ;) Especially the Encore rank probably could have been left out by me in hindsight. Sure, Flopsy included his entire MegSEBytes pack in SEB Lems - which is what inspired me to do the same with (most of) my previous song-title levels - but the MegSEBytes levels were of much higher average quality than my Encore rank. In general, the structure of LWT, being divided into a "main part" and two "bonus ranks", was very much inspired by SEB Lems. So when I attempt SEB Lems again, I would definitely also split it, first trying to solve everything up to the end of the Rapture rank, and then taking a break before I look at the rest.

Anyways, I'm still trying to determine where the sweet spot for pack size is. Usually I like them at 100 levels at least - original Lemmings had 120, ONML had 100, and with regards to custom packs, NepsterLems clocks in at 111, which is also quite a nice number. With my current packs, I try not to go above 120 levels per pack.

Paralems was probably already too much from my side with 150; Lemmicks had even more, at 170, though I felt it was more justified in that case because the constant change of gimmicks kept mixing things up. The player needs some time to get used to the different mechanics on each rank, after all.

Lemmings United of course is pretty huge as well, and I believe it's the second largest pack, i.e. after Lemmings World Tour. That said, what's deterring me from that pack is not its size, but it's sheer difficulty, of which I have already gotten a taste when playtesting just the first rank. It definitely seems to be the optimum of level quantity and quality among all packs currently released (that is, if you equate "quality" partly with "difficulty" :P ; but I definitely can also see the huge amount of effort IchoTolot put into designing the terrain landscapes. So that I have some pretty level pictures to admire, even if I can't solve them :D ).
Levels for v10 or older / Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Last post by Strato Incendus on Today at 11:28:54 am »
Damn, you're faster than I can reply to these! :thumbsup: In a weird anachronism, I've watched your first half of Groupie before the rest of your replays (and also before IchoTolot's re-solutions for New Formats... he already announced he "re-backrouted" the levels, so I assume he found some of the same backroutes you found :D ).

I'll reply to your second batch of Groupie levels later, but two things from your second post of course I have to comment on: ;)

Overall, an excellent pack that I would definitely recommend despite the very large size of the pack.

Thank you very much for recommending this pack to others! :thumbsup:

When I do the New Formats version, I'll probably end up LPing it. It'll take an extremely long time, though, and from what I remember it's definitely very slow going at first with the first two ranks, especially since the levels in them are not your tutorials at all, and some are difficult. Of course, I'll let you know when I have started it and provide you the link

I'd be honoured to see that, of course! :thumbsup: It would be interesting to watch in comparison, not only because you would be the first person LPing the New-Formats version - Flopsy has uttered interest in doing it, but no certain plans yet, as far as I could tell; and also, he would probably use his own music playlist again - but also because it would be the first non-blind LP.

Well, except for the couple of levels that had radiation and/or slowfreeze replaced on them, because they have slightly different solutions in New Formats. Albeit those solutions are rarely "better", just "different"... and sometimes just outright inferior versions, a mere attempt at replicating the original design.
And, the biggest pack that has ever been released so far has finally fallen by my hands and been completely solved by me: Lemmings World Tour for Old Formats! Yup, all 320 levels solved. I definitely would had had all of the pack solved quite some time ago, but it was advised for me to wait for an update to the Groupie rank before I started solving the pack again. So, after I had finished the Legend rank, I took a hiatus, only to later continue playing the pack about a month or two later and play the Encore rank when it was said that no backroutes surfaced from Icho's playing of the rank for New Formats except for possibly Twilems, which Strato said he might patch.

Modified the OP to reflect the completion of the LWT pack.
Levels for v10 or older / Re: [NeoLemmix] Lemmings World Tour
« Last post by kaywhyn on Today at 10:54:24 am »
And, the Groupie rank is done and I thus have solved all of the LWT pack for Old Formats! :thumbsup: Icho may be the first to finish the New Formats version of LWT, but I'm officially the first to have all of LWT Old Formats solved. So, here is my entire replay collection for LWT Old Formats, all 320 replays. IMO, the second half of Groupie wasn't that much harder, but the final level of the pack was definitely the hardest, although certainly not the hardest level I have ever played. Not by a longshot. I also was far less successful with guessing the designer styles for the second half of Groupie.

All rightie, onto the feedback for Groupie 21-40.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Overall, an excellent pack that I would definitely recommend despite the very large size of the pack. Even better if you're musically inclined, since you'll likely be able to understand the level title references to the songs. Though, it seems that not many people are fans of radiation/slowfreeze, and if that's the case, I say they shouldn't bother with the Old Formats version and just play the New Formats version instead. As you know, I don't mind the culled radiation/slowfreeze, so I was willing to play through the Old Formats version. I wasn't playing it just to be the first person to complete the Old Formats version. Even then, there aren't that many of these levels in the pack itself, so there's still a lot of just standard puzzle levels that players can enjoy if they don't want to bother playing the radiation/slowfreeze levels. And who knows. When I do the New Formats version, I'll probably end up LPing it. It'll take an extremely long time, though, and from what I remember it's definitely very slow going at first with the first two ranks, especially since the levels in them are not your tutorials at all, and some are difficult. Of course, I'll let you know when I have started it and provide you the link ;)
NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Last post by Pieuw on Today at 10:43:40 am »
It was nice to see Maso 8 in motion back then, but I can see how annoying it can be to make it work. Having only 1 turn wouldn't decrease the difficulty of the puzzle, it would ruin the name though. A > That Stands For >emmings? :crylaugh:
Challenges / Re: [NeoLemmix] Builders & Bashers ONLY!
« Last post by WillLem on Today at 10:15:54 am »
Reserved for GeoffLems results.

I've started this pack with one of my favourite levels, Mayhem 5 The Long Beam. A substantial score of 30 Builders, 22 Bashers.
NeoLemmix Levels / Re: [NeoLemmix] DoveLems [Difficulty: Easy-Medium]
« Last post by IchoTolot on Today at 08:33:37 am »
The thing with Maso 8 is if you don't use the right technique for the stairs it's extremely precise. With the right technique it's not that hard to do.

I aggree though that it tend to get annoying. Maybe 1 turn would have been enough here.
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