The (in-game) talisman colours make it pretty difficult to tell whether a given talisman is bronze or gold. (Somehow, silver is a bit more distinctive )

Colours should be more like this, which are easy enough to tell apart:

...making it awkward when you're trying to place pieces that go exactly up to the bottom or right edge.

To reproduce:

* Start a new level in the Rock tileset. Place some terrain.
* Attempt to place one-way walls from the Snow tileset. Instead of Snow's red one-way walls, the editor will place Rock's pink ones.
* Change the Theme of the level to Snow. There is no change immediately, but if you click "Get Terrain" and then "Get Objects", the already placed arrows will still be pink, but now the object selection scroll will have red ones.
* Place a new (red) one-way wall object. The already placed pink arrows now change to red as well. Alternatively, playtest the level, which will also suddenly change them to red.

I'm not sure what the intended behaviour is here, but certainly the editor is not being very honest about what options are available to the designer.

I would certainly like, in some cases, to be able to place one-way walls from a tileset that doesn't match the main "theme". For instance, Rock's pink arrows look fine on the green crystals, but are horrible on the rocky terrain -- and Snow's red arrows would be perfect.

Drag a piece from the selection bar onto the level area, and position it partly off the edge of the level. The piece will be rejected and disappear entirely if the mouse coordinate is off the edge, i.e. the piece is more than halfway off, even though it's entirely reasonable to want to place pieces so that only a small part of them is on the level.

Firstly, if the grid is on, then clicking on a piece to select it makes it jump to the grid. This is bad because the user may want to select the piece to make copies of it without changing its current position; and if they do want to adjust it to the grid they have the option of dragging it a short way and then back to its original position.

Secondly, again only if the grid is on, clicking on a piece with a negative X- or Y-coordinate, even if it is aligned with the grid, makes it jump by one grid-tile. This part is definitely a bug

There are quite a few backroutes at the moment, largely arising from Forestidia's replays and feedback, but some from Wafflem's streams or other sources, that I haven't had time to have a proper look at fixing yet. This topic is for me to list them so I don't forget any. Everyone is welcome to contribute replays or discussion of any levels mentioned here.

Note that the following levels have two different intended solutions, but are not "anything goes" so backroutes are still a possibility:
C - Come on Down to My Place
V - Buridan's Lix
H - Close to the Edge

The following levels have two (or more) different known solutions, but we don't know the author's intention:
C - Need a Boost?
D - Alternative Route Required

I will distinguish backroutes as "major" and "minor" according to whether they are a completely different route from the intended, or a slight variation. I don't mind leaving minor backroutes unfixed, if it would be difficult to fix them or if doing so would harm the level in aesthetic or other ways.

Known major backroutes:
C - Lix Cannon (probably unfixable)
C - Skulls, Sludge, and Steel
D - Gomen ne sunao ja nakute
D - Segmentation Fault (proposed fix by requiring 21 or 22/40)
V - Low Profile
V - Dream the Impossible Dream (level has always been backroute-ridden, might be unfixable)
V - Dream the impossible Dream -- Proxima: Is this same backroute or new one?
H - Bipolar Maniac
Duality


Known minor backroutes:
V - Betcha Can't Save Just One! (backroutes exist in Lemmix original, probably will not fix)
V - Buridan's Lix (left solution)
H - Close to the Edge (right solution)

The following levels have recently had backroutes fixed, and need further testing:
(none)

The following levels have replays that may be backroutes, but I can't look at yet as I haven't solved the level:
H - Crown Jewel Heist

This is inspired by the currently ongoing revamp of the NeoLemmix Introduction Pack, but is something that pack creators might find useful in general.

Allow creators to pair levels with image files, which get displayed where the pre-level text normally would be. (The image would take up less than the full screen, so as to leave a border of the preview screen's dirt texture.)

For the intro pack in particular, this would allow us to show the new feature the level is teaching, avoiding the situation where the new player can't work out which object is, for example, the unlock button. Anything we want to say about the UI, such as the number that indicates how many lemmings remain in the hatch, could be shown much more clearly with a partial screenshot and an arrow pointing to the feature.

Also, the Lemmings font (don't know if it has a name) is nice and comfortable for level preview screens, where the amount of text is limited to the level name and single words, but dreadful when trying to read whole paragraphs. We'd be putting new players off before they've even had a chance to start the first level. The ability to make our own pre-level images (which can contain text) would allow the player to read about the game mechanics much more comfortably, and when necessary, we could fit a lot more text on one screen than we can now.

Latest part: Sonic 1 (Game Gear) - Bridge Zone

As the chat regulars will know, I've been a huge Sonic fan since childhood, and I don't think I'm the only one So I figured, it's about time I did some Sonic letsplays. I know Flopsy and Arty are also doing them, but there are a lot of Sonic games, so I'll cover some of the games they missed, and even when we do the same game, I'll have a different approach and different things to say about them.

It's also going to be a voyage of discovery for me: I've completed Sonic 1, 2, 3 and Sonic & Knuckles before, but that leaves a lot of games that I've never even played, so I'll be going in blind.

I'm starting with Sonic 1 because it's a logical place to start, being the very first game of the series, and my aim is to post a video every Tuesday. (I was going to do them on Sundays, but I was unwell this weekend, and next Sunday is a long way off, so....)

I have a fair idea of which games I intend to do after that, but I think I'll keep it to myself as it's fun to surprise people

Playlist:

Sonic 1 (Mega Drive) - Green Hill, Marble, Spring Yard, Labyrinth, Star Light / Scrap Brain 1, Scrap Brain 2 and 3 / Final Zone
Sonic 1 (Game Gear) - Green Hill, Bridge

This topic is for old-formats Mania. I am open to the idea of rebooting the project in new formats, but if we do, it should be in a new topic.

We've talked about it. Let's get started building it.

Lemmings Mania is a follow-up to Lemmings Redux, and similarly to Redux, every level must be based on a level from one of the original games. However, this time we're not keeping the original solutions but making our own repeats.

Just so we're on the same page, I should clarify that unlike Redux, this is not a group-led project where every single decision is made by establishing consensus and taking a poll if necessary. I'm happy for everyone to give input on how the project should be run and the direction it should take, but I'm going to be acting as team leader and making decisions.

Everyone is welcome to take part! If you want to contribute, then:

* Decide on a level from any of the original games (Lemmings, ONML, Genesis and other ports, Holiday, L2, L3, L3D, Paintball, Revolution, any others I may have forgotten). If it already exists in NeoLemmix, then produce your repeat by editing the original level. Remakes of levels that don't have a NeoLemmix version are welcome.

* Vary the skillset and level statistics to produce a new solution concept. We'll have some any-way-you-want levels to start off the difficulty curve, and some levels will simply enforce challenges on the old levels; but most levels for this project should do something new by using skills that weren't present on the original level, or using them in a way that wasn't possible before.

* If necessary either for your basic solution concept or to prevent backroutes, you can add or move objects or terrain to create slight differences from the original level, like the differences in the "Just a Minute" and "Fall and no life" repeat pairs. This includes "reverse" levels where the entrance and exit are swapped.

* All NeoLemmix skills can be used. Teleporters/receivers, pickup skills and zombies can be used, since these exist in some of the original games, but not the other NeoLemmix objects.

* All levels should have a distinct title from the original. If you can't think of a title, you can leave it and I'll try to come up with one.

* Don't include music. I'm going to have a music rotation for the pack using music from the original games beyond the Lemmings/ONML music used for Redux.

* You can also nominate existing levels from other packs, whether they are by you or another author, so long as they meet the condition of being a repeat of an original level.

Let's see what we can come up with between us, and above all, have fun!

Levels nominated so far:
Up and In Lemmings (ONML - Down and Out Lemmings - bsmith)
The Date / The Dance (2P - The Duel - GigaLem)
Everything to stride for / Everything to cry for (2P - Still everything to play for - GigaLem)
Two for the price of One (2P - One On One - GigaLem)
Lemmings on Vacation (L2 - Quad Quirks on the Quay! - Yung Gotenks)
Boiler Workers (L1 PSP - Lemming toast - Nessy)
Containment (L1 - No added colours or lemmings - Nessy)
Subterranean Safe House (L1 - Last one out is a rotten egg - Nessy)
Symmetry Mansion (2P - May the craftiest player win - Nessy)
(A number of L3D levels by Flopsy, see post below)
Upwardly Ascending Lemmings (ONML - Downwardly Mobile Lemmings - Yung Gotenks)
The Green Zone (L3 - Classic Level 1 - Yung Gotenks)
No Rests Allowed (Genesis - Take a little rest - Yung Gotenks)
The Metal Mines (NES - A Spot of Bother - Yung Gotenks)

Talisman ideas
Up and In Lemmings - 3 of each skill
Upwardly Ascending Lemmings - 8 builders
No Rests Allowed - Save 100%
The Metal Mines - 7 builders
The thing can be done! - 2 diggers

Welcome to Lemmings Redux! If you're new to the Lemmings series and want to get to know the levels that started it all, or if you played the games a long time ago and want to revisit your childhood memories, this might be the pack for you.

Lemmings Redux is a compilation of 160 levels, selected and edited by the community, that are representative of the best of the original Lemmings games. We've cut out most of the levels that had you hold back the crowd and do a lot of building, and the ones that were all about difficulty of execution and timing those pernicious walking bombers. With more regret, a few levels that were fine puzzles but don't work as intended under NeoLemmix mechanics also had to go. The remaining levels have been arranged into a pack that can be played just like one of the original games, starting with simple but fun levels to ease you into the game, and ramping up to fiendish puzzles near the end.

The levels have also been improved and edited. We know these changes won't please everyone, but we've tried to find the best balance between faithfulness to the originals and streamlining the playing experience. Time limits have been removed (except when the time limit is an essential part of the level), lemming counts reduced, hidden traps revealed, and so on. We've also fixed backroutes on some levels, so that the player has to engage with the puzzle, hopefully leading to a greater appreciation of some of the beautiful solutions

All aspects of the pack, from level selection and ordering to the smallest changes, have been decided on by group discussion -- no wonder that it took us 18 months to finish putting the pack together! Early on, bsmith and namida were responsible for coordinating the discussion and compiling the pack according to group consensus; after namida's departure, I took over this role.

Lemmings Redux contains 160 levels, in five ranks of 32 levels each:

Gentle


Let's go to the moon!

Quirky


Haunted botanical garden

Zany


Mutiny on the Bounty

Manic


ROCKY VI

Lunatic


Evacuating a coal mine

Lemmings Redux is currently a pack for old-formats (10.13) NeoLemmix. However, once new-formats is stable, I will convert the pack and maintain it for both formats.

Enjoy!

So, Lemmings Redux is about to wrap up. Back when I first proposed the project, one idea I had for it was that we could include our own repeats of the existing levels. This wasn't taken up, partly because when we started putting the pack together, we had no problem finding over 100 levels we wanted to keep. But I would love to do this as a follow-up project: a pack consisting entirely of repeats of levels from the original games.

This isn't a new idea, of course. Before I joined this forum (in one of its older incarnations) and discovered level editors such as LemEdit and Cheapo, the only level editing tool I had was ResEdit. This stores the level data in database format, with fields for number of lemmings, number of each skill etc, and then one large field for the terrain. It's like opening the text file of a Lix level, except that terrain pieces are numbered instead of named, and there's nothing to guide you as to which numbers are the piece ID and which are the coordinates; you have to work all that out for yourself. Needless to say, instead of bothering with all this, my first ever pack consisted entirely of repeats in which I only changed the titles, statistics and skillsets.

For this project, I'd like to collaborate with other forum members. Before starting, though, I'd like to know who's interested in participating, and I think we should have a group discussion of the aims and rules for this project and what levels we will accept. In particular, I think the questions that need answering are these:

* Should this be a separate pack, or a bonus rank in Redux? Or decide later depending on how many levels we get?

* How selective do we want to be? Include all proposed levels, or go through a voting process similar to Redux (but hopefully less protracted, since I'll be taking a firmer lead from the outset)?

* Which originals should be eligible for making repeats of? Certainly, all levels from the original games that already exist for NeoLemmix are fair game: Original Lemmings, ONML, Holiday, everything in the Extra pack, and the remakes of the Lemmings 2 Classic tribe. We could, if it's what the group decides, expand the net to include some of the following: Lemmings 2 (the remaining tribes), Lemmings 3, Lemmings 3D, Lemmings Paintball, Lemmings Revolution, and Lemmings PS3.

* What modifications to the originals are acceptable? Since we're doing repeats (not straight remakes), we can vary the skillset and level statistics to facilitate a new solution. Is it okay to modify the terrain slightly if our solution idea requires it? How about adding or moving objects? Remaking levels in other tilesets?

* Should we stick with the original 8 skills, or allow all NeoLemmix skills? Should we allow all NeoLemmix objects?

* Do we allow the pack to include levels that are also part of other large packs? Do we include existing repeats of the original levels by authors no longer on the forum (e.g. Ellischant's "Lemming Cliche", an excellent repeat of Fun 3)?

I'm really looking forward to working on this pack, so I hope it takes off

Edit Simon: I've renamed this topic
from Lemforum pack changes, 0.9.x
to Lemforum backroute fixes, 0.10.x.

See also: Lemforum outtakes/replacements, 0.10.x.

Proxima's first post here, and everything throughout 2018 to 2021 in the early parts of this topic, is for 0.9.x.

---

Daunting 29 "Duality": moved decorative terrain above exit to prevent a backroute.

Quote from: IchoTolot on September 29, 2017, 09:12:33 AM
The ceiling acts like a steel wall in all other cases. Builders hit their head, Lemmings turn if they run against it. So it would only be logical if the shimmier grabs onto it. Not doing so would be a weird special rule.

Well, I think it is time we reconsidered the deadly ceiling. Nepster decided to cull radiation and slowfreeze in spite of damage to existing content, because it resulted in a simpler and more consistent game.

The attached zip contains all of my multiplayer levels so far -- mostly from the old game (with slight rebalancing touches), and including the new map "Flying Batter-y Zone", which I cut to 100 lix because it was lagging a bit with 200.

Included maps:

The Adventure Playground (2p, 3p, 4p)
Any Way You Both Want (2p)
Betcha can't save just 100 (4p)
Box Set (2p)
Dirty Rascal (2p)
Flying Batter-y Zone (4p, 8p)
Four Color Theorem (2p)
Old Man of the Mountain (2p attack-and-defence)
Shion's Fun Fun Torture Room (4p combat)
We are A.T. and T.A. (2p)

In chat just now, mobius mentioned the Cheapo exits and Nepster mentioned that he doesn't have them. I have three of them saved on my computer, so here they are.

These are all snipped from the "Objects" bmps I used when I was making my own Cheapo styles; evidently the Dirt and Fire exits are missing because I didn't like them enough to include. I vaguely remember that the Fire exit was just a hole with a badly drawn flame around it, nowhere near as impressive or iconic as the demon's face exit.

Something I keep thinking of when I watch a NeoLemmix stream, and then forgetting to post about It would be really nice if, when playing/making a pack that only uses the traditional 8 skills, we have the option to keep the skills in their usual places rather than bunch left.

1. When I open the program, its window starts in the bottom-left corner and partly offscreen. Could it be moved to a more useful place, or maybe just remember where I moved it in the previous session?

2. In the talisman editor, in the top field, get rid of "Description" and show the actual requirements set in some kind of shorthand, e.g. "Cl 6 Fl 3" for "at most 6 climbers, at most 3 floaters". This would be helpful for double-checking whether you've entered your intended requirements correctly -- especially as you can't actually see all the requirements at once, if you are restricting the quantity of more than one skill.

3. Don't save edits to talismans unless I use the "Save" menu command.

[20:01] <Akseli> aaah, zombie noise :DDD
[20:01] <Akseli> that's something that made me turn the sounds off

I also find it unpleasant, and unnecessary. I know there are zombies, because I can see them. Consider culling this "feature".

"Doublets" is a word game where you try to transform one word into another (of the same length), changing a single letter at a time, with the proviso that all the intermediate steps must be valid words: for example, cat, cot, cog, dog. The goal is to complete the chain in as few steps as possible (the final word counts as a step but the starting word does not, so the above chain scores 3).

See if you can equal or beat my scores:

BASH to MINE (5)
BOMB to CUBE (14)
BUILD to STACK (13) (hint: the chain contains another Lemmings-related word)

It would be nice to have an option, when creating a pack, for the musics to rotate in the same way as in Mac Lemmings, i.e. if a rank ends on track 7, the first level of the next rank has track 8, instead of going back to track 1 with each rank as NL currently does. The disadvantage of NL's system is that some tracks end up playing half as often as others, and since everyone has their own favourites, it's no fun if your favourite is one of those.

We discussed this in chat just now and at least one other person would also like to have such an option