[SUG][ED] Talisman requirement : To assign a specific skill !

[UGO]

Hello.
I'm UGO a videogames french fan. I have discovered Lemmings at the beginning on the Macintosh many long years ago. Recently I have discovered at new with the NeoLemmix thanks to Guigui.

I'm writing here because I have an idea/request for the NLEditor. It's about the Talismans. It would be very great if we could add a requirement for gain it : The player must assign specific skill in the game !
I hope this is possible to add this feature.
My idea : to use this new requirement and pickups skill items in order to oblige the Lemmings to go to specific places in my level !

[Proxima]

It's already possible to require lemmings to go to specific places, in several ways:

* Buttons that unlock an exit. (If you want the buttons to be optional, for a talisman rather than for passing the level, you can have an open exit in the main part of the level, and a closed-off part with a locked exit, then have a talisman for saving all the lemmings in the closed-off part.)

* Pick-up skills that aren't required for the normal solution, but are required for a talisman. The most obvious way to do this is with cloner pick-up skills and a talisman for saving extra lemmings, but that is prone to introducing backroutes (unintended solutions). You could also have a trapped group of lemmings, and pick-up skills that would let you save them (which could be climbers, builders, or any destructive skill).

[WillLem]

Use X of [Skill] could be an interesting talisman in and of itself, without necessarily being a way to enforce traversal to a particular part of the level.

I've always thought that a "Use All Skills" talisman could also be interesting, but there may have to be a limit on the amount of skills available in the level for such a talisman to be applicable.

This one might be something to try out first in SuperLemmix.

[UGO]

@Proxima : these solutions are not satisfactory for my level.
Actually I don't understand the second option.

My idea/request could add new possibilities. 

[namida]

I think you're going to need to provide some actual examples of how this adds value to a level (eg. by uploading a level that would have such a talisman in a way that contradicts the below points).

As far as I can see - there are basically two ways any kind of talisman that forces use of one or more skills might play out:

1. It requires some very specific trick to be exploited (such as the trick of assigning a bomber to a digger who falls into an exit before he explodes). Once you know the trick, you're going to know what to do in every level that uses the talisman, because it's just a "do you know this trick?" check.

2. Or, the skill can just be assigned in a way that does nothing besides using up the skill. Most skills are easily wasted either by assigning them where they won't achieve anythign (eg. a basher not near a wall, a permanent skill to a lemming who's about to exit anyway, a blocker to a lemming who was going to die anyway).

And I think in practice, even most attempts at #1 would turn into #2.

[Guigui]

I think you're going to need to provide some actual examples of how this adds value to a level (eg. by uploading a level that would have such a talisman in a way that contradicts the below points).

As far as I can see - there are basically two ways any kind of talisman that forces use of one or more skills might play out:

1. It requires some very specific trick to be exploited (such as the trick of assigning a bomber to a digger who falls into an exit before he explodes). Once you know the trick, you're going to know what to do in every level that uses the talisman, because it's just a "do you know this trick?" check.

2. Or, the skill can just be assigned in a way that does nothing besides using up the skill. Most skills are easily wasted either by assigning them where they won't achieve anythign (eg. a basher not near a wall, a permanent skill to a lemming who's about to exit anyway, a blocker to a lemming who was going to die anyway).

And I think in practice, even most attempts at #1 would turn into #2.

I also came to conclusion #2 when thinking about this : almost all skills may be assigned at pure loss, fulfilling the talisman. Exceptions may be the digger and miner who can kill the assigned lem.

I'm not sure either what UGO has in mind as a level using a "assign this skill" talisman, but let us speculate. The most common skill-related talisman I've seen in levels are the following type, for instance :

* the level has a solution A which uses a basher.
* the same level has a solution B which is harder to find and does not use the basher.
--> you get a talisman if you can find solution B.

Here, maybe UGO wants to reverse the situation where solution A is harder to find that B and reward solution A with the talisman ?

[UGO]

My goal is to oblige the lemmings to go to a specific place in my level. And the idea that I found for do it is to put a pickup skill item with a skill that isn't available at first, and then command a lemming to go to get that skill and use it, even if it's "in vacuum".

[Guigui]

Alright, this can work.
The more usual way to do this is to place that pickup skill where you want the lems to go, then make the use of that skill mandatory to solve the level. Like put the exit behind a wall, dont give a basher skill at first, and put a basher pickup where you want the lemmings to go.

[Proxima]

The more usual way to do this is to place that pickup skill where you want the lems to go, then make the use of that skill mandatory to solve the level.

That ignores UGO's specific goal: to make the pickup skill required for a talisman, but not required for solving the level.

I still believe that the methods I suggested could work or could be made to work, for pretty much any level. In case it's not clear, I'll go over the steps more carefully:
* Choose a skill that is not currently used, for example, digger.
* Add a section, enclosed from the rest of the level, with a pre-placed lemming and a separate exit. Set up this new section so the lemming can only be saved with a digger.
* Add a digger skill pickup.
* Now, if for example there are 20 lemmings in the main level, you can have a talisman for saving 21. This requires getting the pickup skill.

[WillLem]

I can see this from both UGO's and Proxima's point of view here.

There is probably no harm in the talisman existing, and it would be an easy way for UGO to get exactly what he wants whilst also providing puzzle potential for other levels beyond UGO's.

One example would be a level such as Tightrope City with a "use the Cloner" talisman and no Blockers available. Wherever the Cloner is assigned, they will walk in the opposite direction. It then becomes necessary to find a way to turn them around. Yes, you could simply provide a Cloner and make a talisman for "save SR + 1", but "use the Cloner" arguably presents the same challenge in a more direct way, and presentation is important to some designers (myself included). It's not always desirable to find some clunky workaround when what you want is something elegant and simple.

Then again, NeoLemmix does provide many simple, elegant ways to enforce traversal to a particular part of a level. SuperLemmix even more so, since it has the Collectibles feature (which is arguably the best way for UGO to get what he wants for his specific level).

I'm happy to add this talisman to SuperLemmix to see how it plays out. I'll design a few levels using it myself to see what the possibilities are, and with UGO's permission I'll port his level over and apply the talisman to see if it does indeed get the desired result.

If the talisman is "Use X of [Skill]", I'd suggest an upper limit for X so that it doesn't get ridiculous and trollish ("Use 1000 Builders", for example) - 10 seems good as a limit, can we agree?

I'll also add a "Use All Skills" talisman which will be disallowed (by both Game and Editor) for levels with more than 20 total skills. This number can be tweaked later, it's been chosen purely as something to start from.

UGO: I'll let you know when this is done, and we can try the feature out in SuperLemmix first before putting it forward again for NeoLemmix. If we can provide tangible examples of levels for which the talisman is the best possible way to enforce a particular solution, it's much more likely to be accepted.

[Simon]

* Buttons that unlock an exit. (If you want the buttons to be optional, for a talisman rather than for passing the level, you can have an open exit in the main part of the level, and a closed-off part with a locked exit, then have a talisman for saving all the lemmings in the closed-off part.)

these solutions are not satisfactory for my level.

I'll wager that it's reasonable to use buttons. Post your level and we'll look at it together how to do it with buttons!

When you use buttons, you have immediate support. And buttons will be easy to understand for your players. Many players will even expect your design problem to be solved with buttons, and would find skill-spamming strange.

-- Simon

[UGO]

The more usual way to do this is to place that pickup skill where you want the lems to go, then make the use of that skill mandatory to solve the level. Like put the exit behind a wall, dont give a basher skill at first, and put a basher pickup where you want the lemmings to go.

It's a good idea but this is not the solution for my level... There are many talismans and the player needs all solve-skills from the beginning.

I still believe that the methods I suggested could work or could be made to work, for pretty much any level. In case it's not clear, I'll go over the steps more carefully:
* Choose a skill that is not currently used, for example, digger.
* Add a section, enclosed from the rest of the level, with a pre-placed lemming and a separate exit. Set up this new section so the lemming can only be saved with a digger.
* Add a digger skill pickup.
* Now, if for example there are 20 lemmings in the main level, you can have a talisman for saving 21. This requires getting the pickup skill.

Good idea. This could be a solution.

I'll wager that it's reasonable to use buttons. Post your level and we'll look at it together how to do it with buttons!

When you use buttons, you have immediate support. And buttons will be easy to understand for your players. Many players will even expect your design problem to be solved with buttons, and would find skill-spamming strange.

I prefer to decide if I use buttons. Maybe this could work for one talisman.

UGO: I'll let you know when this is done, and we can try the feature out in SuperLemmix first before putting it forward again for NeoLemmix. If we can provide tangible examples of levels for which the talisman is the best possible way to enforce a particular solution, it's much more likely to be accepted.

Ok. What are the differences between SuperLemmix and NeoLemmix ? For my part I am going to finish my level.

[namida]

It's a good idea but this is not the solution for my level... There are many talismans and the player needs all solve-skills from the beginning.

You just need to expand on this a bit more, actually. You need to make it so the level itself can be solved without the pickup skill, but it is not possible to solve the level and collect the pickup skill unless you also use the pickup skill. For example, perhaps the pickup skill is a climber skill that's placed in a pit the lemming will have to climb out of.

You could however achieve this, still as a talisman rather than making it the only solution, without any new features. To do this, look at ways you can make the pickup skill substitute for an otherwise-required skill, and have a talisman for not using that other skill. For example - let's say we had a level that, at some point, there is a large wall you need to bash through. You could achieve this "must go to a specific point" by placing another skill that can destroy that wall - a Fencer, Miner, Laserer, or possibly even a Digger as a way to go around it - and then having a talisman for "No bashers".

Proxima's suggestion with the preplaced lemming also works on a technical level, but may feel a bit more "forced".

Also worth noting: Talismans don't always get the most attention. Many players will just solve the levels and not bother with the talismans. This is likely to be even more the case if you have "many" talismans on a level, especially if they're all fairly similar in nature.

[UGO]

if you have "many" talismans on a level

Three talismans.