Level Design Contest #29 - Playing Phase (Discussion Topic)

[IchoTolot]

All zips only need to be unzipped inside the main folder of your NeoLemmix or Lix Player!

Lix Level Pack: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/a3v1xu2gv9roiz1xuleuq/Contest_29_Lix.zip?rlkey=mkkmei2d0z9p8yq78pe4n878n&dl=1

The Lix levels will then be in the single/Contests/Contest_29 folder!

NeoLemmix Level Pack: https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ezp9k9c1qgf6gugna263y/Contest_29_NL.zip?rlkey=gzjuosnkgx87naw1sdlid3nyh&dl=1

Music (NeoLemmix): https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/mc6u3npi5mpqb2sq1q9vj/Contest_29_Music.zip?rlkey=xmh4v2iggu5v9ghziy2c2g6nf&dl=1


Rule 1 Levels

Armani's "Tensegrity" (V2)
Eric Derkovits's "Brick or Treat" (V7)
IchoTolot's "The Amazing Lemming Tightrope Act" (V1)
kaywhyn's "A-MAZE-ING Brick House Evacuation" (V6)


Rule 2 Levels

geoo's "Dangerous Goods" (V2)
Armani's "Got a New Toy" (V2)
Eric Derkovits's "Where No Lem Has Gone Before" (V2)
IchoTolot's "Legacy Of The Waffentraeger" (V1)
kaywhyn's "Lemmings vs the Jolly Roger Pirates" (V19)


Rule 3 Levels

geoo's "Origami Master" (V1)
Armani's "Color Coded" (V1)
Eric Derkovits's "Bee Here For You!" (V1)
IchoTolot's "Crossing Confusion Cross" (V2)
kaywhyn's "Fun Teleportation Race in Space" (V4)


You can check the rules details again here: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6104.0

Playing Phase will be closed on 31th of January!
Updates will close on 28th of January!

Note: This topic is for posting your comments, replays, etc for the levels. If you wish to post an update to your level, or enter a late submission, please do so in the Updates Topic instead.

Link to update topic

[zanzindorf]

I played through the Rule 1 submissions. Attached is a replay for Tensegrity, Brick or Treat, and A-MAZE-ing Brick House Evacuation. (I'll come back to level 3)

Notes:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tensegrity: I love the visuals a lot. I always appreciate levels that do interesting things with non-custom styles. Big plus for visual appeal that also servers a function, and nice little details that are just for fun, like the slime pipe, the face, and the little moon hanging from the chain. The solution was fun to find. If I had any constructive feedback, I'd say the overhang the lemmings have to reach when they shimmy is only in reach if they grab the ridges to the end caps. That could feel a little too pixel-perfect to some people I'd imagine, but it's a very minor thing. Very good level overall, definitely my favorite submission visually.

Brick or Treat: I loved this solution. I don't play with zombies often, so me figuring out their mechanics was a nice bonus challenge. They also add to the theming

A-MAZE-ING Brick House Evacuation: I like this one visually as well. It's probably my favorite puzzle out of the three I completed. I've always liked this quirky basher trick, but this level is probably the tidiest set up for that trick I've seen. Nice work Figuring out where to save skills and which path to take was a lot of fun. The swimmers were either a very good red herring, or the solution I found was a back route. I spent a lot of time trying to figure out how to make use of my swimmers lol.

The Amazing Lemming Tightrope Act: I'll need to come back to it :/    Good visually, but I spent all my puzzle solving juice for the day lol.

[kaywhyn]

Solved both of geoo's Lix entries. Replays attached I don't smell any backroutes here!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dangerous Goods - Not a difficult level, just one I struggled with only because I'm still learning new things about Lix. For example, I didn't realize that was a spring at the bottom and that one can use the steam to get flung upwards. After a while, I tried platforming over the trap at the bottom and that's how I saw what actually happens when I sent a Lix over there. When I saw where she landed my reaction was "oh, that's how you get a Lix onto the middle platform from the right!" Before I even discovered that, I was thinking perhaps the way is to bash and then bomb around the middle so to release the other Lix to get into the other Lix's basher tunnel.

Just out of curiosity, would the solution still work even without a fling bomber? It seems the fling isn't necessary at all. I know that the bomber holes are different for the skills, I just wonder if the solution could work with either skill

Origami Master - Ok, this one was very frustrating on the execution. I initially had trouble conceptualizing how the containment in the middle should work, but after a while I figured it out. Even with this, this took so many tries to get right because I either get one too many killed by the trap or at least 1 Lix kept escaping one of the flinging objects. In the end, I used the jumper on the final Lix in the train since she got killed by the trap.

With this level, I was like wow, geoo sure loves his Merge Sort puzzles The timing had to be right and assigning the correct Lixes the skills is very crucial here!

@zanzindorf

Thanks for playing my R1 That is a backroute, as you might had guessed. For V2, I added a barrel to hopefully prevent that cheesy shortcut you took. I don't know if it'll be enough, but let's see!

Thanks for the compliment and feedback! Also nice to see you getting back into playing some Lemmings/NL!

Will take a look at the NL entries sometime in the coming days!

[Armani]

@zanzindorf
Thanks a lot for the positive feedbacks! Yes, I often try to do some interesting things with original lemmings styles. That's aestheticall pleasing in a different way from custom styles imo.
Your solution is unfortunately a slight backroute. This update will hopefully block the pixel-perfect backroute and enforce the solution I have in mind!

[zanzindorf]

@kaywhyn, @Armani

Ooo, interesting changes. I will give these levels another try soon.

Attached are my replays for the rule 2 submissions:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Got a New Toy: Loved this one, my solution feels pretty intended. I was stumped for a long time, and was even thinking about it at work today. Glad I finally beat it

Where No Lem Has Gone Before: I solved without lasers and gliders, so I'm guessing my solution is unintended. Otherwise, the theming is great. The text being backwards on the teleporters is kinda neat. I think that's hinting which ones lead to the mirrored side and which one lead within the same side? If so, that's a very nice touch.

Lagacy Of The Waffentraeger: I'm about 50/50 on if this is intended or not, but if it is a legit route, this is a very fun level. It looks impossible, which forces you to explore. I like that If it is intended, I struggled a bit to get the lemming spacing just right to pull off the stoner/shimmy boost. Though, I could be lasering in the wrong spot or something. Love the tanks. Gives me Super Mario 3 vibes.

Lemmings vs the Jolly Roger Pirates: I'm guessing my solution is a back route, so I'll wait for a revision before saying too much, but regardless, love the pirate ship. The design gives me a Banjo Kazooie vibe, and I like it

[kaywhyn]

@zanzindorf

Doh! That's quite a bad backroute that you found for my R2. I originally didn't have a swimmer hatch, and quite honestly I totally forgot that it's one when I later realized the solution I originally had in mind could be made to work with some changes to the skillset. For V2, I removed some of the wooden staircase terrain. If the level is properly patched up, it's supposed to be one of the harder R2's!

Thanks again for the compliment on the design! If the title alone isn't enough to indicate that it's supposed to be a pirate ship, then most definitely the Jolly Roger flag in the level is the complete giveaway, or at least is supposed to let others know I meant to depict a pirate ship. You seemed to have been able to tell right away that it's supposed to be a pirate ship. Nice! However, as you can see, the reason why it's very goofy and comical looking is because of my extremely limited or lack of artistic abilities and admittedly I think I did a far better job of making it look like some kind of stick figure drawing I never was an artist, and still am not. My designs definitely wouldn't be able to top ones like yours, Armani's, and all the other designers on here who are quite talented artistically.

For the music, it's from an online game that I used to play all the time that my sister showed me a long time ago called Gun Bound. It's the music that plays when the game goes into "sudden death" mode, after a set pre-determined amount of moves if neither team has completely eliminated every player from the opposing team first. It's definitely one of my favorite tracks from that game Here, I thought it quite fitting considering that there's essentially a "war" going on here with the enemy in my level

Thanks again for the replays and showing two of my levels can still be backrouted! Keep up the good work, you're doing great!

Oh, I pre-tested all of Icho's entries, so I can tell you that for Icho's R2 you have the intended solution For his R1, keep at it. I too struggled a lot with it but in the end found an acceptable alternative to his intended, so you're not alone in struggling with it. I found it quite difficult, mostly due to the very high RR but also there being so many possibilities, most of which don't even work!

[kaywhyn]

R1's and R2's solved. Replays attached. The one for eric's R2 is for V1, but I have confirmed it still works for V2. Only needed to play two levels each for the rulesets, since I pre-tested all of Icho's and of course I don't need to play my own levels other than for a replay proof of solvability and make sure everything is fine

R1 Feedback

Armani's Tensegrity V2 (click to show/hide)

Wow, this one was quite tough but really good! The solution here is extremely well-hidden. There's plenty of possibilities here that look like they can work but they ultimately don't, mostly because you're left with at least a skill short. For a very long time, I thought I had to send two lemmings up to the top around the middle area when in fact only the climber needs to. In particular, the first shimmier is very hard to see. Also, I kept thinking all of the builders needed to be in the same place to set up some kind of shimmier scenario I did have the right idea to dig down the chain at the very top nearly the entire time. It's also clear that you need one builder to get to the exit, so that leaves 3 builders to work with, but it was very hard to see how the remaining ones need to be used! I also kept thinking to bash through the very long barrel pipe to get around the issue of getting two lemmings over to the other side of all the obstacles at the bottom, but this proved problematic as I would only be able to send the climber over. Much later down the line, I realized the answer is the climber goes over it while the shimmier simply uses the bottom of the pipe to get over everything. The remaining issue I had was simply to allow the climber enough time to dig the chain and to get the builder in place in time so that when the regular lemming finishes at the bottom everything would be set for him to shimmy. Here, I was a dummy in that I kept thinking to send the middle lemming as a climber while the top one was bashing to the right. This would work, except the digger on the chain isn't anywhere near done and hence the non-climber would catch up too soon with finishing the builder. Later I realized I had it the other way, where the top lemming does the building over the gap, turns around, digs, and then releases the bottom lemming with a basher by going underneath both barrels. The rest of the solution fell into place. Great job with this level!  

eric's Brick or Treat V2 (click to show/hide)

Ok, I was a big dummy here for a long time thinking some extremely fiddly timing needs to be done here, but turns out none of that is needed. I had all kinds of problems due to not being able to see what the basher was for. That is quite neat to make a turnaround for the slider near the exits.

I know this was discussed before, but you definitely love your extremely long shimmier sections. All well and good, especially as I love the shimmier a lot too, except players can't do anything but just watch for quite a while and nothing else needs to be done. The skill does have a lot of puzzle potential, but there are definitely far better puzzle usages of the shimmier other than drag out levels with very lengthy shimmying/swimming, for example.

R2 Feedback

Armani's Got a New Toy V1 (click to show/hide)

Wow, I really like your depiction of a helicopter/plane here! Not a very hard level and somewhat easier than your R1, but still not a complete cakewalk. I'm thinking my solution is mostly intended since I do have a shimmier leftover. I wonder if I got the main trick of digging down the first stoner with the slider and still be able to contain the crowds with the second one In my initial attempts, I had a slider go out near the exit but it turns out you would need multiple shimmiers so that he is able to land on terrain. I told myself ok if I can get the slider to be a glider as well then I wouldn't need to spend any shimmiers to keep him safe until he is ready to be sacrificed after doing the work and releasing the crowds via the laser. I think that's why I had a shimmier left.

eric's Where No Lem Has Gone Before V1/V2 (click to show/hide)

As mentioned, my replay for V1 works for V2, so it seems it would just break zanzindorf's replay. I must say that V2 is a huge improvement over V1 even though the changes aren't too major. In V1, you allowed almost no leg room on when the blockers need to be released. I literally had to release them almost instantly when the level started to have any chance of hitting all buttons before the neutrals slipped by the exits! Yea, not a good idea IMO. Hence, V1 is quite unforgiving in regards to timing. With V2, there's far more leeway and therefore this is greatly appreciated.

Another level that is huge for seemingly no reason, seems you like those too. I guess I can understand why both R1 and R2 need to be so that the timing all works out, but keep in mind to make levels only as big as they need to be in order to get your idea/concept in. If the same level can be done in a smaller size, that's generally preferable, and if levels need to be huge for any reason make sure there's a purpose for that, e.g, not very long walking sections where nothing is done for a while.

Will go through the R3's later, I'm pretty much exhausted mentally completely for the day

[IchoTolot]

@zanzindorf

Intended solution to my R2! Great job!
For the lemming spacing thing:

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I left the RR changeable to give the player control over it, so it would not be totally frustraiting.

Also I might wait a few days until a complete pack update as backroutes and changes seem a bit frequent for now.

[zanzindorf]

Intended solution to my R2!

Yay! Good good.

I played through the rule 3 levels. I'm still stuck on level 3, but the others are complete.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Color Coded: Very fun level! Probably the best and hardest blockers only level I've ever played.

Bee Here For You!: My solution isn't very tidy. Since I had the resources to brute force, that's what I did lol. Fairly easy level, but fun.

Fun Teleportation Race in Space: I probably found a back route since I have a few skills left over. I feel like I get the core idea of the level though. Nice aesthetics, cool level design, nice work

I'll come back to confusion cross. Aptly named lol

[kaywhyn]

@zanzindorf

That is indeed a backroute for my R3, and so you have succeeded in backrouting all 3 of my levels I think I was aware of that start and somehow thought it wouldn't work because of other stuff players need to do for it, but nope, you showed me otherwise the level can still be cheesed! So, once more I continue to have a history of my levels never being initially 100% backroute proof from the get go when first released This is after all the extensive backroute testing I do on my own too!

So, for V2 I modified the steel platform. In addition, I discovered a backroute of my own before I got replays from anyone for the level, but decided to leave it in until I started getting solutions before patching that out too.

If you feel like resolving my levels, that would be awesome, but if not, no worries. There's always Armani and Icho for that Also, Also my congratulations on solving all the contest levels except for Icho's R1 and R3. I'm sure you'll get those two in no time, though Indeed, the fact you're struggling with them seems to confirm my feedback assessment I gave to Icho of them both being difficult. During pre-testing, I backrouted R3 several times, but I didn't find any version of it easy at all. It took me quite a while to find those backroutes myself! Now that it's all patched up after a few versions, R3 is probably just as difficult as his R1, possibly even a bit more. So, sorry you're playing quite a patched up R3 thanks to me , but out of his entries his R3 is my favorite one. The solution is just very well-hidden and hence very difficult to see and find.

On the other hand, if the intended solutions to mine are enforced, then I would say that my R2 is probably the hardest one IMO, with R3 maybe being a close second. However, as I've shown time and time again, both Armani and Icho are constantly giving me the feedback that they thought my levels are tricky/difficult even though I myself keep thinking that they're "easy" relatively speaking to all the other entries. Since this has been the case from the very first LDC I participated in almost 3 years ago, I think it's time I drop that notion of thinking my own levels are not that hard then!

And I have solved all the R3's, which again there were only two I needed to play. In addition, I have resolved eric's R1. I have attached my entire replay collection, as well as reattach my solutions to geoo's Lix entries, minus replays for Icho's and my levels. I will attach intended solutions to my levels closer to the end of the playing phase For Icho's levels, I pre-tested them all as usual, and I advise you to try and solve them on your own first! If you're still stuck, feel free to ask either of us or anyone who has managed to solve them for hints and if still no luck one of us can provide a replay. Same with my levels if you're stuck!

All of these seem good and backroute proof now, but well, I'll wait for confirmation of my solutions from the authors.

@eric

Once again, this is a reminder to be sure to delete your earlier posts except for the most recent one from the update topic! You can reattach the most recent version of your R2 to it if you wish.

For R1, I have a shimmier left, but I'm guessing it's simply a more efficient solution that allowed me to spare a skill and therefore not really a backroute.

For R3, it's way too repetitive for my liking, but at least it's an anything goes kind of level, with plenty of excess skills that doesn't make it frustrating in any way. I can definitely see the striking resemblance of similar design styles with that of WillLem!

@Armani

Color Coded (click to show/hide)

Wow, you totally blew my mind away with how you managed to pull off making a completely non-trivial blockers only level! This definitely reminded me of Planet 1 and Planet 2 from NepsterLems, where they were a miners only and a climbers only level, respectively. I described this level on Discord as Fun 3 - Tailor-made for blockers but on crack The beginning is a little difficult, but you just have to play around with the placement of the blockers until you can bunch the groups up properly. Even after getting that down, I kept being a lemming short of the requirement After a while, I gave up after a lengthy session and came back to the level about 4 hours ago. It turns out that I had the solution the entire time, I was simply using one blocker too many. It took me a while to realize that you can block close enough on one side of the trap and still turn the lemmings coming from the other side. This didn't occur to me even though I saw the turning fallers in midair one very quickly. I especially love the splitter part at the end and how to create the bunching up of lemmings in pairs by placing the blocker at the very top in such a way so that the one coming from the right to use the teleporter can bunch up with the one who turned around on the blocker and back to the left. Nice!

Also another thing I discovered but ultimately doesn't really help to solve the level I think is that I didn't realize that the trigger point of the receivers is actually in the air. Meaning, when you block in front of the teleporter, they will use it and then immediately get released because they have nothing to stand on. I thought that would help me solve the problem of being a lemming short, but nope, it didn't.

All rightie, as it's still very early, I will wait for a while before recording my videos of the solutions! Will most likely be sometime next year, so see you all in 2024 for my playthrough videos of the contest entries in the new year!

[Armani]

All the solutions to my r1 and r3 levels are intended. Well done
I updated the r2 level

Here're my solutions to NL r1 levels

Brick or Treat (click to show/hide)

I like the concept of bouncing off the shimmier to buy time and each lemming takes its own route! My solution spares some skills so it could be not fully intended.

The Amazing Lemming Tightrope Act (click to show/hide)

I got two solutions and they both look somewhat intended Definitely reminds me of one your United level where you have to make multiple splatforms with gliders before any of crowd catch up and splat.

A-MAZE-ING Brick House Evacuation (click to show/hide)

This feels somewhat intended! Zigzag basher with the cloner&blocker, lasering from below to make a hole for the swimmers, all looking good! That was a very clever level without any precise execution. great job! The leftover jumper is a little bit suspicious though

[Armani]

And here're my solutons to NL's r2 and r3 levels as well

Where No Lem Has Gone Before (click to show/hide)

love the depiction of your level I think my solution is intended as I used every skill and all pairs of teleporter/receiver at least once!

Legacy Of The Waffentraeger (click to show/hide)

I knew there's goint to be at least one level depicting a tank for this ruleset! It was releatively easy comapared to other two levels from you but it was still fun to play!

Lemmings vs the Jolly Roger Pirates (click to show/hide)

Unlike the backroute I showed you on discord, this solution use most of the skills, goes all around the ship and remove the zombie pirate king at the top. The solution has some leftover skills though so there're probably some missing details

Bee Here For You! (click to show/hide)

It's a little bit too repetitive in my opinion but nice design nontheless I think I wasted some skills and there're more efficient solutions than mine

Crossing Confusion Cross (click to show/hide)

It took me longest to solve. Unfortunately I think I backrouted this one. Originally I was always one or two skills short but after I realize that I don't need to spend a platformer at the exit area, I suddenly found a solution that spared quite a lot of skills

Fun Teleportation Race in Space (click to show/hide)

This also looks very intended! Making every lemming keep distance from each other was a bit tricky. I also had to fine tune the release rate so I can send worker lemmings at the correct moment!

[ericderkovits]

Updated my Rule 1 (V5)  and Rule 2 (V2) levels

Kaywhyn's and Armani's solutions are both the intended ones for my R2 (V2)

Armani's solution is not the intended one for V4 of R1, so I added another Axeman trap near the walker pickup.

for my R3 level, Any solution that solves the level is ok. It appears I was too generous with the skills, but no changes needed. This level is an anyway type of level.

[IchoTolot]

@Armani:

R1: Both solutions are fine! Great job!:thumbsup:
The green side solution was the one I intended and the blue side solution was found by kaywhyn during testing.

R2: Also intended!

R3: Yeah that's a backroute. I uploaded a V2 and hope that two steel blocks are enough to fix it.

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

Wow, let me say that I appreciate your feedback/compliments! That always brings a smile to my face, especially as I doubt my own abilities a lot and don't have that much self-confidence or self-esteem. I'm very happy that you continue to enjoy my levels.

R1 - Yea, that's a backroute, as there are some parts that aren't intended, although certainly closer to what I had in mind. For V3, I added some terrain which will hopefully point you more towards my intended solution now

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yup, you got the intended use of the laser to make a hole for the swimmer neutrals to reach the bottom exit My intention here is to show off this power of the laser which has the ability to go through even water and continue on its way until it reaches its maximum range, doesn't have any more terrain to destroy, or encounters OWAs/steel. I would imagine this is likely the hardest thing to see in the solution, especially as I'm thinking players would mess around and wonder how the heck do you access the bottom exit. Well, this is where a ranged skill like the laser really shines!

R2 - Even though this isn't as glaring as the backroute you showed me on Discord, this is still a pretty bad one that's quite far from my intended solution. For V3, I added OWAs to block off parts of both routes you took, as well as removed some of the wooden staircase terrain.

I'm happy to read from you that you recognized that I meant to depict a pirate ship for R2 If it isn't already obvious from the level title, the Jolly Roger flag in the level would most likely be the complete giveaway to that, but even with that it still might not be obvious to the player in any way. The reason why it's very goofy and comical looking is due to my extremely limited to practically non-existent artistic abilities I was never an artist to begin with, and I still am not. Here, I admit I looked at Strato's Viking ship from Lemmings Open Air, as well as your Sniper in the Forest level to see how you both managed to make a ship, but as you can see I ended up doing it very differently from either of you

R3 - 100% intended! Great job! Here, I got a bit of inspiration from two of Icho's L2 Space Lemmings United levels, one from the Tension rank, another from the War rank It's also my very first L2 Space level, and I'm happy you like it

As for your solutions to Icho's levels, wow, that is so amazing that your second solution to his R1 is the solution I found during pre-testing. Great minds sure think alike! And yes, you're correct in that it immediately reminded me of the United level "Framed with the Best Skills," except this one is far harder due to a much higher RR. It's also NL skills only just like the United level (edit: ah, not quite, all NL except floaters are provided too)

For his R3, oops, that was the backroute I feared could work by reducing the lemming count which I wasn't able to make happen. By backrouting it the way you did, now I'm full of guilt that I was a nitpick and told Icho I thought the original amount of shimmiers when the lemming count was 12 was a bit too on the excessive side However, I don't have any reason to be, as I tried it with the 12-lemming count version and indeed your backroute with a minor adjustment still works for it. In addition, what you did with the lasers was what I came up with in an earlier version of the level in pre-testing, but I couldn't get it to work due to slider problems!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I didn't think about maxing out the RR like you did when half of the lemmings already came out the entrance. Instead, some kept splatting once the platformer went far enough with the second one and therefore that's why I thought this backroute wouldn't work.

Like I told zanzindorf, Icho's R3 is my favorite one of his entries this time. You'll love the solution when you find it!

[zanzindorf]

I replayed kaywhyn's revisions. I'm still stuck on R1, but here's R2 and R3.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

R2 V2: I'm not sure if this has been found yet, because I'm purposely avoiding spoilers, but, I think I broke the level again. I got tunnel vision thinking I could only dig the barrier in front of the exit, when I can just bomb it.

R3 V3: I still have many skills left over, so I don't think I've found the real solution yet.

[kaywhyn]

@zanzindorf

Many thanks for resolving the most recent versions of my R2 and R3!

R1 This surprises me a bit, but as mentioned before I'm my own worst critic when it comes to judging the difficulty of my own levels! Actually, I think this is pretty much true for every designer. I'll refrain from giving hints for now, as I generally only give them if the player asks for them. I know you'll get V3 solved, though

R2 - Another really bad backroute that I didn't catch For V4, the only change here was shifting the pillar in the water down a pixel, but apparently that change is enough! Let's see how it holds up now, though I still very much have my doubts.

R3 - Oh wow, nice find. For V3, I removed the steel blocks and replaced them with some circle terrain.

I have resolves for eric's R1 and Armani's R2.

@eric

Ok, if this is intended then I must say this level really made me rage because of how it needs so much precision in order to avoid zombie infection. It probably isn't though and I simply self-inflicted all that precision and made it far more complicated than it needs to be. I literally exhausted every possibility here, with nothing working except for this solution I finally found after a few hours. Again, if intended, then I hate to say it but I'm not a fan of all that fiddliness and timing. Since I'm not certain about whether it's intended, I've refrained from watching zanzindorf's broken replay for now just in case I need to resolve this one again.

@Armani

R2 looks good now

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I admit that the digging and stoning and then another stoner in the pit to release the crowd is a bit new to me, but I guess it's not too difficult to figure out, especially as the stoner is the only way to contain the top entrances and so it shouldn't be difficult to discover this. The digger does need to be very precise, but that's ok, as at least the second stoner doesn't need to be very precise due to how it has some width to cover some area.

[kaywhyn]

Resolved eric's R1 V6. This one spares a few skills but it should still be intended/acceptable nevertheless, it's simply a really efficient way to do so to allow one to save skills.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

This one took a while but the struggles were simply due to not seeing the use of the second jumper correctly. Kept thinking it was used for the swimmer to get onto the platform to get the walker pickup.

My point still stands about the level needlessly being dragged out with no input needed from the player for a while since nothing can be done while they do a very long shimmier/swimming/walking. There's definitely far more creative uses of those skills. Again, I love the shimmier skill a lot myself, but really long sections of it that don't really have a purpose other than to drag things out isn't one of my favorite uses of it. I do understand it's to all make the timing work out here, but I would love to see and play levels with better and more creative shimmier uses in the future!

Note: the Intended solution isn't fiddly. Remember I'm still using Zanzindorf's solution, it's just he needs to replay and make small adjustments.

Ok, but try discussing solutions here instead. It is the discussion topic after all Yes, I'm well aware that zanzindorf's is the new intended solution, but I didn't watch it before resolving this version, therefore I had no way of knowing if the solution is supposed to be messy and fiddly. Indeed, now that I have solved it it's not, but there's still some difficult timing needed, just not to the extreme extent I made a mess out of in V5

[ericderkovits]

added a Bronze Talisman

@Kaywhyn

Ok, this solution is acceptable. good job

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Close enough to Intended Solution. Just more efficient than Zanzindorf's. He just used all the skills.
The disarmer zombie in the intended solution is supposed to disarm every trap (except the leftmost one) which you now did. Also now the Slider lemming returns back to the top hatch area by jumping off small wall (after using laserer to release the disarmer zombie) to make another round which was missing in your previous solutions.

[geoo]

Solved both of geoo's Lix entries. Replays attached I don't smell any backroutes here!

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Dangerous Goods - Not a difficult level, just one I struggled with only because I'm still learning new things about Lix. For example, I didn't realize that was a spring at the bottom and that one can use the steam to get flung upwards. After a while, I tried platforming over the trap at the bottom and that's how I saw what actually happens when I sent a Lix over there. When I saw where she landed my reaction was "oh, that's how you get a Lix onto the middle platform from the right!" Before I even discovered that, I was thinking perhaps the way is to bash and then bomb around the middle so to release the other Lix to get into the other Lix's basher tunnel.

Just out of curiosity, would the solution still work even without a fling bomber? It seems the fling isn't necessary at all. I know that the bomber holes are different for the skills, I just wonder if the solution could work with either skill

Origami Master - Ok, this one was very frustrating on the execution. I initially had trouble conceptualizing how the containment in the middle should work, but after a while I figured it out. Even with this, this took so many tries to get right because I either get one too many killed by the trap or at least 1 Lix kept escaping one of the flinging objects. In the end, I used the jumper on the final Lix in the train since she got killed by the trap.

With this level, I was like wow, geoo sure loves his Merge Sort puzzles The timing had to be right and assigning the correct Lixes the skills is very crucial here!

Both solutions are intended, though you made your life much harder on the second one (as long as you place the second blocker well, execution should have a decent amount of leeway):

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Building while the crowd is already in the pit slightly stretches out the crowd, giving you less leeway. If instead you send one lix ahead to jump over the trap and build while the crowd is still trapped behind the blocker, things should work smoothly as long as you have at most 4 layers of lix and place the second blocker precisely (the replay tweaker is super helpful for the latter).
I wonder how I could change the level to make this clearer. Initially I had pre-built the bridge and it was just a 4 skill level, maybe that's better?

But yes, I like these style of levels, and I the pack I'm working on I have a full rank of similar stuff coming up...

Dangerous Goods should also work with the normal bomber, haven't tested though. If certain kinds of backroutes crop up I might change it.

[zanzindorf]

I replayed some more revisions. Brick or Treat and Where No Lem Has Gone Before are solved as indented, I think. Both very nice levels

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Jolly Roger V4: It takes more skills to turn around on that pillar that's been lowered, but it's still possible.

Teleporation Race V3: My back route is still possible, but requires another platformer and some extra fiddling with the blockers.

[zanzindorf]

Both solutions are intended, though you made your life much harder on the second one

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hmmm... I'm kinda the same as kaywhyn on Origami Master. I figured I was just lacking information on some Lix mechanic, because I haven't played a lot of Lix. But I really struggled to find the specific placement. Either my Lixs are too spaced apart and get sucked up or too bunched together and walk right past the springs before the exit. I even watched kaywhyn's replay, and I still can't solve it lol. Maybe a prebuilt bridge would help, but I even tried jumping ahead like you suggested to build ahead of the crowd, and it didn't seem to help too much. Would an extra spring at the bottom near the exit break the puzzle? Maybe an extra spring would help it be less unforgiving?

[kaywhyn]

@zanzindorf

Thanks once again for resolving the most recent versions of my R2 and R3 Indeed both are still backroutes I should had known better than to underestimate you lol.

R2 - For V5 the only change was that I replaced the pillar in the water with a different terrain piece. Once again, I'm not confident this change is enough, but well, let's see.

R3 - For V4, I restored the platform near the entrance to V2's version, shifted the steel blocks over, and added a piece of terrain. I think as a result of these changes the solution will probably be a bit more obvious now, but well, sometimes that's the way it is. Even when I thought the solution is more obvious, I still been told otherwise by Armani and Icho! I haven't verified it, but I'm sure Armani's replay should still be fine and if not, then he just needs to make a really minor adjustment.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Hmmm... I'm kinda the same as kaywhyn on Origami Master. I figured I was just lacking information on some Lix mechanic, because I haven't played a lot of Lix. But I really struggled to find the specific placement. Either my Lixs are too spaced apart and get sucked up or too bunched together and walk right past the springs before the exit. I even watched kaywhyn's replay, and I still can't solve it lol. Maybe a prebuilt bridge would help, but I even tried jumping ahead like you suggested to build ahead of the crowd, and it didn't seem to help too much. Would an extra spring at the bottom near the exit break the puzzle? Maybe an extra spring would help it be less unforgiving?

I've replayed geoo's R3 by doing what he described in the first part of the spoiler to make the solution easier than the one I found, but honestly I still find it pretty precise and not that much better. Replay attached. Needless to say, I'm definitely very curious about geoo's replay for it lol. So really, @zanzindorf I don't think you can deviate too much from my first replay with the placements of the skills, otherwise you won't make it as you keep on seeing lol

[zanzindorf]

I replayed Jolly Roger with the new terrain piece. I feel like I'm getting closer to the intended solution, but it's still definitely a back route. I have three variations of essentially the same path, just using different skills.

[kaywhyn]

@zanzindorf

Yea, each of the solutions for R2 have you going through the ship where I don't want them to. Now I remember that's why I didn't want to make the entrance a swimmer hatch, but because of the 10 max skill types limit the intended solution I have in mind wouldn't work For V6, I extended the OWAs. This change should force you to find a different way for the crowd to take

[IchoTolot]

The pack has been updated.

[ericderkovits]

@Zanzindorf

Both your solutions to my R1 and R2 are indeed intended.

Of course I added a Bronze Talisman for Kaywhyn's 2 skill saving but your solution is exactly the solution I wanted
without the Talisman.

[Armani]

@geoo
solved lix entries!
Took me several attemps to save enough lixes on Origami Master.
I love Dangerous Goods. It was an excellent puzzle

@kaywhyn
That's intended

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Yep there'll be some levels using this trick(or advanced variations of it) in the future from me. I wanted to introduce the trick so they won't come as a frustrating total surprise.
Btw, the digger doesn't necessarily have to be precised.(i.e. you don't have to dig right next to the steel block.)

[Armani]

And I played through updated NL levels

Brick or Treat
A-MAZE-ING Brick House Evacuation
Lemmings vs the Jolly Roger Pirates
Crossing Confusion Cross

[IchoTolot]

@Armani

Intended solution! Great job!

[IchoTolot]

I plan to play through the levels after I am back from my hometown where I stay over Christmas.

It seems the worst backroutes are patched now.

[Armani]

For those who want to see the intended solutions to my levels, here it is

youtube link

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

Sorry for the huge delay in getting back to your solutions on my updated levels. I needed that break from fixing my own levels again so as to not stress myself out. Not to mention that I've been quite busy with recording my LPs

R1 - It's not the intended route as you might have guessed, but I call this an acceptable solution. Your solution is kind of more efficient than my intended one in some ways, and so far the skills you had leftover I don't see them really breaking the level in any way. So, unless severe backroutes start showing up with the leftover skills or possibly even one of the skills you used, your solution is fine for now, and I'm not going to be super picky about completely enforcing my intended solution. I do see at least see the main tricks I want in your solution. Plus a fix might do more harm than good. I've attached my solution for you to compare

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Tricks needed: Laser from below to make a path for the swimmers, and cloning a builder and a fencer and extending the latter because of the former. The third was what I used to hit the button as well, but you use a miner to reach it instead. That's fine, it's not too much different from my solution and is still used in about the same area as mine.

R2 - Yea, this one still needs some more work. I've changed some of the up OWAs to left and right ones, as well as added more of each of the latter ones at the top. Definitely the major source of all the backroutes I've seen thus far are at that part of the ship at the bottom left where the rope trap is.

I plan to play through the levels after I am back from my hometown where I stay over Christmas.

It seems the worst backroutes are patched now.

Have a wonderful holiday!

Not quite, just my R2 left needs some work, which hopefully will do with this version that I just released, but let's see!

[Simon]

I haven't submitted levels for Contest 29, but I'd still like to try all your entries. I'll play the 12 NeoLemmix entries when I'm back at my main desktop with the huge screen.

Attached is a wurschtelei for geoo's Dangerous Goods and a functional pipeline for geoo's Origami Master.

-- Simon

[IchoTolot]

Here are my solutions to both the NL and Lix levels.

[Armani]

@IchoTolot
Everything is intended.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

Finally got around to watching your replays to my levels and here is my assessment.

R1 - I originally called this an acceptable solution, but then I just realized a fix that I never thought of that could probably enforce my solution a little better. I feel bad because I called Armani's solution acceptable from a while back, and you pretty much did the same as him, only more efficiently because you managed to save an extra skill on top of the same two he did. For V4, I simply added a water pit at the top and two steel blocks. This kind of reminds me of your slider level from several contests ago where one of my solutions was originally acceptable but then you later found a way to enforce your intended way better It's kind of the same here, only I realized a way for my level much later

R2 - Yea, that's still a backroute. The only change here for V8 is I extended the OWAs on the wooden pillars. This probably makes the solution too obvious now, but what do I know? Given my feedback history from both you and Armani telling me that my levels are still tricky and difficult regardless of the fixes/changes

R3 - 100% intended! Great job As I mentioned to Armani, I got inspiration from two space levels of yours from United, one from the Tension rank, the other in the War rank It's also my very first L2 Space level, and I hope you liked it!

[kaywhyn]

All rightie, I finally found some time to record videos of my solutions to the contest entries except for my own, which I will cover at a later time, after I get intended/acceptable solutions to all of them

Video links:

Part 1 (Lix Entries) - https://youtu.be/0c8e7APytNg

Part 2 (NL Rule 1) - https://youtu.be/DAumj1ehUpE

Part 3 (NL Rule 2) - https://youtu.be/57WenqpLlZA

Part 4 (NL Rule 3) - https://youtu.be/gjx8Zccw4mU

[IchoTolot]

Got new solutions.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

R1 - Your solution is about 98-99% intended, and one of your earlier solutions did contain an element that I wanted which isn't present here. For V5, I simply added more terrain near the middle exit area. You'll be able to resolve this new version very easily TBH, yes I know I could had easily blocked off what you did at the very end with OWAs or steel, but this ended up taking me a while to come up with a suitable fix while not making the level look too peculiar in that area Yea, strange but true, backroute fixing sometimes takes me far longer than it should That's why it stresses me out more than it should.

R2 - Still a very bad backroute. It's the fact the hatch is a pre-assigned swimmer one, but due to my intended solution using the max of 10 skill types that's why it is what it is For V9, I changed up the wooden staircase terrain in the middle left area and in turn removed a platformer and a builder. The solution has changed up quite a lot already and I knew this level was going to be very problematic to backroute fix anyway due to how very complicated the solution is. I should had kept it simpler like yours and Armani's for both of your R2's

[Armani]

resolved the most recent versions of the levels

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

R1 - Ah, nice find. For V6, another steel block added and now this should finally be it, so both you and Icho should be able to resolve this one very easily

R2 - Ack, curse that pre-assigned swimmer hatch! For V10, added another needles trap. Something tells me that it won't cover all the problem spots, but well, this level has proven to be very problematic to patch!

[Armani]

Here're some new solutions.
r1 level shoud be good now

[IchoTolot]

I also got new solutions.

[kaywhyn]

@Armani, @Icho

R1 - Both of your solutions are 100% intended. Nice job! Not sure why I didn't think about those fixes sooner, especially that quicksand addition. I find it very interesting that Armani pretty much did the exact same thing I did in the first several seconds of the level, though that might had been because I leaked and attached my intended solution for him to compare when I called his solution acceptable several posts above Anyway, hope you gentlemen liked it and that the timing with the climbers isn't too tight! I really tried to ease that part and made it as forgiving as much as I could!

R2 - Ah, you gentlemen play hard! All right, I really could had avoided all that trouble from the very start by simply adding more OWAs in the area that keeps getting abused all because of the preassigned swimmer hatch, but I really thought I could get away with not needing to do so Looks like I'm out of options now, and I was thinking of resorting to pickups, but let's try this first before I might need to. For V11, just more OWAs and also shifted the ones near the entrance up some more and also extended them.

edit: I noticed the R2 got 3 downloads, but I have reattached it as apparently the ones near the entrance needed to be extended too. That's what I get for thinking moving them upwards would be enough and not actually testing it to see if it blocks off Armani's really cheesy backroute

[IchoTolot]

Hm, I think it would be best to focus getting rid of a skill slot and cull the swimmer hatch - or make a 2nd hatch and limit the swimmer hatch to 1 lem (even though that fix is a bit dirtier).

[kaywhyn]

Hm, I think it would be best to focus getting rid of a skill slot and cull the swimmer hatch - or make a 2nd hatch and limit the swimmer hatch to 1 lem (even though that fix is a bit dirtier).

Doh, of course! Why didn't I think of it before? Instead of a swimmer hatch, I could have preplaced Lemmings with the swimmer ability! I haven't used preplaced Lemmings since the very first LDC I participated in, LDC #22, with your R2 of just NL skills and no classical features, and so you can tell that I'm not used to them at all, particularly since I've been more careful with my more recent levels with not using pickups as fixes! Apparently I didn't learn all there is to take away from playing your United pack So, thanks for the reminder!

You're close, though. My intended route requires two swimmers, not one

So, for V12 a bit of an overhaul:

- Entrance is no longer a swimmer hatch and instead there are now two preplaced Lemmings that are swimmers.

- Changed up the wooden staircase near the entrance, as I discovered shortly after uploading V11 that Armani's cheesy backroute still works with a minor adjustment.

- More steel added to prevent getting under the trap, which is another major source of backroutes

Again, not confident that these changes will be enough, and it might not be possible to enforce my solution completely. If it turns out to be so, then I will accept some variants here that I would consider close enough. Not yet, though

[Armani]

Here's my new solution
I normally see a glimpse of how the intended solution looks even when I backroute a level, but not this one.
It felt like I have too many powerful skills.

[kaywhyn]

Here's my new solution
I normally see a glimpse of how the intended solution looks even when I backroute a level, but not this one.
It felt like I have too many powerful skills.

Well, it doesn't help that my intended solution is complicated too, and the harder the solution, the better the chances of backroutes. But yea, I think, in addition, we know from experience that the more skills we provide, the more likely backroutes will come up I really should had came up with an easier solution for this level like both you and Icho have for your R2's

Anyway, for V13, some big changes: shifted the rope net 3 pixels to the right so that you need to find some other way to deal with the lone zombie, changed some OWAs to downward ones on the wooden pillars, as well as changed the left to right pointing ones on the left wooden pillar, and finally shifted some terrain underneath and around the entrance 2 pixels down. Even if this doesn't exactly get us there to the intended route, I would think it at least could get us pretty close, but hey, I've been proven wrong so many times  

[Armani]

This looks better!
I have a gut feeling that I somehow need to get rid of the lone zombie at the top, but I couldn't found an efficient way to do so...

[kaywhyn]

@Armani

Not quite there yet, but we're definitely much closer towards what I intended. After a really long brainstorming session tonight, there's one particular area that I couldn't think of a way to stop some unintended stuff, so depending on how bad solutions I get are, I either have probably reached my limit in fixing the level up or I might just try 1 or 2 more versions after this one before calling them acceptable. I did think of some drastic skillset changes and I thought I was onto something, but sadly one of the skill types that I took away at least one of it is needed, it seems

For V14, more OWAs and flipped the right ones at the top to left ones. I'm pretty certain the level can still be cheesed in the same places as in your solution, but well, my head hurts right now and I'll just see where to go from here with the new solutions I get. 

[kaywhyn]

Disregard the changes for V14 for my R2 in the above post,, as I have now uploaded a V15 which features another really big overhaul/reworking of the level after some deep thinking. In particular, I was successful in getting rid of two skill slots and replace them with two different types!

- Skillset changes: No walkers and blockers now and instead +4 jumpers, +1 platformer, +1 basher, +1 stacker, +2 swimmers, and -1 miner

- Along with the above, -1 preplaced Lemming and the lone preplaced Lemming is now just a regular one.

- Entrance is now a right-facing one

- Added another rope terrain and removed some OWAs

- Modified the wooden staircase near the entrance and shifted the taller pillar several pixels to the left

Again, even if this doesn't get the intended solution exactly, I would like to think we are at least much closer to it than ever before, but I should wait and get solutions first!

[IchoTolot]

This seems still like a backroute.

[kaywhyn]

I knew I should had kept those down OWAs in Not to mention that you told me a long time ago that reverting a change could quite possibly open up the same backroutes again! Well, for V16 back in they go, and in addition the preplaced Lemming has also been moved  

[IchoTolot]

Maybe a bit better

[IchoTolot]

Updated the replay for geoo's entry.

[kaywhyn]

Maybe a bit better

Nah, not too much better at all One last thing I want to try before I might possibly resort to pickups for V18, if needed. For V17, the right OWAs were removed and instead the down OWAs on the wooden pillars were extended to where they used to be. Because of this change I'm thinking the solution is way too obvious now, but well, sometimes that's the way it goes with very broken levels that can't really be patched up easily. Also, I've been proven wrong on this last point many times!

I also have an updated replay for geoo's R2 but it's pretty much the same as the previous solution, just my Lix was much further from the point of the bomber assignment and therefore wouldn't get flung whether or not it's a bomb flinger skill like in the previous version.

[Armani]

more solutions

Regarding the second solution: If you are going to block this by making the exit area higher(or the starting platform lower), keep in mind that I have an unused stacker so I can go even higher.
The first solution uses most of the skills but still doesn't use the second swimmer though.

[kaywhyn]

more solutions

Regarding the second solution: If you are going to block this by making the exit area higher(or the starting platform lower), keep in mind that I have an unused stacker so I can go even higher.
The first solution uses most of the skills but still doesn't use the second swimmer though.

Thanks for the analysis! For V18, more spike traps and extended the arrows on the pillar near the entrance. I'm somewhat hopeful that this is finally it, but I think either you or Icho will still prove me wrong

[IchoTolot]

New solution!

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

Yea, you see? I knew one of you would prove me wrong Well, I think I'm out of options now, and so as much as I hate to, for V19 the diggers, jumpers, and miner are now pickups, and in addition the pillar near the exit is now much taller. I'm sure I could still get away with less or no pickups, but at this point I'm not taking any chances. It's pretty much the start that's mostly been wrong now, but maybe this change will now force the correct approach. This level's already been through a lot of backroute hell, and even with a major reworking/overhaul it still proves to be very problematic, though maybe not to the extreme degree like before

[IchoTolot]

As the update phase as closed now, I hope I am at least a bit closer now.

Anyway, I will record my solutions up in the following days then.

[kaywhyn]

@Icho

Yea, it's not intended, but surprisingly it's quite close to what I had in mind such that your solution I deem close enough to be acceptable anyway I've attached my solution so you can compare

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

Finally yes I see the correct method for dealing with the lone zombie at the top via freeing him with a laser so that you can safely dig away the wooden pillar What is different is that because of the way you did the lasering you didn't need those jumpers to more effectively keep your distance from the zombie. Nice find! And yea, finally the start with the platforming and building is correct, with the stacker different from mine in that I use the final Lemming from the entrance to stack and contain the crowd and hence I isolated my two workers differently. And of course mining to reduce the fall and make the trip to the exit survivable is intended.

I think I eventually realized that there might be more effective ways than to build over the basher tunnel at the top, bash, and then laser through the rope net to get over the top. Indeed, your solution showed me just how much more effective than mine is in that area.

Same thing with using a basher to destroy the stack instead of a platformer to free the crowd, I somehow knew the unintended way via the former would happen. That's fine, again the solution overall is close enough that I consider it acceptable and not a major backroute like in all those previous versions.

Over the last few days, I was playing with my level in my head and kept running into situations where the player can do things differently and hence I have come to the conclusion that it's not really possible to completely enforce my intended solution. Indeed, I could even make your solution the new intended one by releasing one final update and cull all those extra skills, but hey, I at least didn't completely despair and went down fighting for as long as I could to eliminate as much of the glaring backroutes as was possible It was bound to be one of those unpatchable levels anyway, given how very complicated I made the solution to my R2.

Anyway, thanks for all the resolves and I hope it wasn't too annoying with the constant updates I'm sorry if it was.

Anyway, I will record my solutions up in the following days then.

Great, looking forward to them! I felt bad that I was responsible for the delay in you getting your videos recorded

[IchoTolot]

Alright here are my videos and attached are my up-to-date replays again.

Part 1 (Lix): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3h1D7xsy6SU
Part 2 (NL): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7k0z76NAhpg
Part 3 (My own entries): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9cN70EezZ10

[kaywhyn]

And finally the video covering my levels and showing off my intended solutions:

Part 5 (my levels) - https://youtu.be/1WnMiPnCULQ

Also I've reattached my replays and the intended solutions to my levels