Author Topic: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)  (Read 5184 times)

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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #15 on: July 16, 2023, 05:39:56 AM »
Yes, I'm also mainly here for the upward digging - so we should go with whatever fits that action best.

Where would the propeller sit? On the lemming's head, like with Mario? That to me would suggest a mere movement skill that allows the lemming to fly, but not necessarily to "drill upwards".

Or would it be a tool in the lemming's hands that drills into the ceiling and also pulls the lemming along with itself? In that case, "Driller" might be a more appropriate term than "Propeller" (I think Driller is also one of the potential skill names we once discussed for this skill idea in NeoLemmix).
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #16 on: July 16, 2023, 03:52:04 PM »
One other possible suggestion.

There's an old game called "Oil's Well" where you basically dig wells and try not to hit moving creatures with your drill.

In this game the player stops and has a drill that extends upward. Only the drill graphic moves upward, then after it cuts all the way through the terrain piece it very quickly returns to the player so he can proceed.

This should be easier to animate, and I think a "Driller" makes alot of sense for a vertical digger-type. Instead of the lemming moving up and back down in a timely manner you only have to account for the drill-bit zipping up and down. The lemming could even be a single frame like the laserer.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2023, 07:46:04 PM by jkapp76 »
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #17 on: July 16, 2023, 08:51:37 PM »
Instead of the lemming moving up and back down in a timely manner you only have to account for the drill-bit zipping up and down

This is a brilliant idea. If we go with "Driller", this should definitely be its action, i.e. lem stays still, drill moves up.

It wouldn't be quite as easy as you think to animate, though. Yes, the lem could stay still, but we then have to animate a potentially infinite drill-bit. The code for the laser is extensive, for example. Doable though, and the idea is sound.

Either of the other two ideas (Propeller or Twister), then, should maybe end with the lem "landing" at the top of their newly-created tunnel.

We can then distill this down to two options. Before discussing visualisation/animation ideas any further, let's decide which of these two actions we prefer.:

1) Lem stays where they are when creating tunnel
2) Lem arrives at the top of whatever tunnel they create

I probably prefer (2), but either could work.
« Last Edit: February 09, 2024, 02:14:46 PM by WillLem »

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #18 on: July 17, 2023, 07:45:30 AM »
I also prefer 2 (Lem arrives at the top of the tunnel they create).
Everything else is just a rebranded version of the L2 Laser Blaster, merely using a different tool to avoid confusion with the NeoLemmix diagonal Laserer.

At that point, a "flexible Laserer" that works more like a destructive version of the L2 Roper or Archer (i.e., with the player being able to decide the angle with a second mouseclick) would make more sense to me. :evil: Obviously, that would require both changes to the established Laserer AND be a lot of programming effort (there is a reason we've ruled out the Roper and Archer early, and went with the more straightforward Spearer instead).

And since I always warn about making more changes to established skills (as much as I do enjoy the Freezer now), I only brought this up as a thought experiment. ;) I actually still think the diagonal Laserer is versatile enough, even more useful than a vertical Laserer, oftentimes - because
a) the shafts are Walker- and Shimmier-friendly, not just Climber-friendly, and
b) they're also Faller-friendly, not just Floater/Glider/Slider friendly :D.



For the same reason that we don't need a vertical Laserer, though, I also think we don't need a Driller that stands still on the ground.


The unique features of an upward Digger are not merely restricted to the angle of the shaft, but also to the position of the lemming.
The Twister / Driller / Propeller could move upwards through terrain, which neither the Climber nor the Laserer nor the Ballooner (or a Glider in an updraft) can.

Many advanced levels rely on having to manipulate the positions and directions of movement of individual worker lemmings (oftentimes several workers at once, rather than a single "pioneer").
The Laserer is pretty useless in such levels - aside from its ability to shoot a Shimmier from a ceiling, if timed correctly. :D
In NeoLemmix, that's your only option; in SuperLemmix, you can also do this with a Spearer or Grenader.

The Twister / Driller / Propeller, meanwhile, could easily swap positions with another lemming, by moving upwards through terrain and, in doing so, creating a shaft for other lemmings to fall down.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #19 on: July 19, 2023, 04:36:24 AM »
I'm starting to think the best option is for the lemming to end up at the top.

Leaving him at the bottom is indeed too similar to the laserer and limits his usefulness.

I would side with the (propeller)... Over my own suggested driller.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline Floyd Brannon

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #20 on: August 14, 2023, 11:24:48 PM »
What would happen if you propelled upward through terrain that had a layer of steel at the top of it? I think we should ohno the lemming with the ohno sound too. This would be a sacrifice but maybe be a good way to deal with what to do with it.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #21 on: August 14, 2023, 11:52:15 PM »
What would happen if you propelled upward through terrain that had a layer of steel at the top of it?

I imagine they would simply fall back down the tunnel in this scenario.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #22 on: April 04, 2024, 09:19:24 PM »
OK, decision time.

This skill will take the form of Propeller (a lemming with a "Propeller hat" similar to Mario's in NSMB Wii). This lem will create a vertically-upwards tunnel as far as they possibly can, until one of the following conditions is met:

1) They hit a steel block or the top of the level; in both cases they'll stop Propelling and fall back down the tunnel they created.

2) There are 1 or more pixels of air above the most recent row of pixels removed; in this case, they will jump* to the top-left or top-right edge (depending on original direction) of the tunnel they just created, and proceed with Walking.

Meanwhile, if they haven't yet found terrain to remove, they will continue to propel upwards until they hit either a steel block or the top of the level.

*I tried this out and, amazingly, transitioning to Jumper when they find blank pixels lands the lem exactly on the edge of the top of the tunnel - perfect, and no need for additional transition states!

Some visualisations:


Offline mobius

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #23 on: April 05, 2024, 01:55:29 AM »
Meanwhile, if they haven't yet found terrain to remove, they will continue to propel upwards until they hit either a steel block or the top of the level.


Interesting... this then can double as a sort of psuedo-ballooner; and used simply to gain height. You could have another lemming platform or build or spear above to catch him when he falls down later. Or to simply waste time. Something to keep in mind.
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Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #24 on: April 07, 2024, 06:36:50 PM »
Quote
Interesting... this then can double as a sort of psuedo-ballooner; and used simply to gain height.

I thought the same at first, but keep in mind the SLX Ballooner moves at a steep diagonal angle. What the Propeller / Twister would be doing without terrain is more reminiscent of the Ballooner as it acts in Lemmings 2: The Tribes (as long as you don't use the fanning tool).
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #25 on: April 08, 2024, 04:24:25 AM »
I thought originally the lem would propellor down safely after reaching the top.
Is this idea to transition to a faller a new idea? Or was I imagining that?
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #26 on: April 08, 2024, 02:09:10 PM »
I thought originally the lem would propellor down safely after reaching the top.
Is this idea to transition to a faller a new idea? Or was I imagining that?

I think that was one of the options for when the skill action itself (i.e. creating a vertical tunnel) is finished, but instead it's been decided that they should arrive at the top. Any situation which prevents them safely arriving at the top will instead cause them to fall back down.

We could have them safely propel back down in the other situations, but that would have to be a separate conversation/decision.

Thoughts?

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #27 on: April 10, 2024, 08:37:05 PM »
Arriving at the top makes more sense, and is mechanically more consisent, since all non-ranged destructive skills (Basher, Miner, Digger, Fencer) arrive at the end of their respective tunnels, too.
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Lemmings Open Air, my newest release and follow-up to World Tour, 120 levels
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2024, 12:35:54 AM »
Yes, the Propelling lem will always arrive at the top of a successfully created tunnel.

The question now seems to be: what about when the tunnel isn't finished due to the lem hitting a steel block, or the top of the level (i.e. the situations in this image that result in transition to "faller")? Should the lem fall (potentially fatal), or propel safely back down?

I'm currently about 50/50 on it, either would be fine code-side.

Offline mobius

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Re: [SUG] New skill - Twister/Propeller (vertically-upwards Digger)
« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2024, 07:08:41 PM »
Quote
Interesting... this then can double as a sort of psuedo-ballooner; and used simply to gain height.

I thought the same at first, but keep in mind the SLX Ballooner moves at a steep diagonal angle. What the Propeller / Twister would be doing without terrain is more reminiscent of the Ballooner as it acts in Lemmings 2: The Tribes (as long as you don't use the fanning tool).

My point wasnt about how close to L2 it is, rather the fact that the skill could and likely would be used for a secondary purpose thats completely not terrain removal. It seems a bit inconsistent to me but those are just my two cents. I dont really have a good solution in mind (that wouldnt make it inconsistent in other ways....)
everything by me: https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=5982.msg96035#msg96035

"Not knowing how near the truth is, we seek it far away."
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"I have seen a heap of trouble in my life, and most of it has never come to pass" - Mark Twain