Author Topic: [FEAT] Included Level Packs  (Read 1917 times)

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Offline WillLem

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[FEAT] Included Level Packs
« on: February 14, 2023, 10:19:01 PM »
SuperLemmix will ship with the following packs:

:lemming: DMA Compilation Pack - all OG levels fully restored and with relevant logos. This project is in progress and is nearly complete.

:lemming: SuperLemmix Welcome Pack - this will include levels showcasing any engine-specific features that don't appear in NeoLemmix.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2023, 03:29:00 PM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2024, 11:30:47 PM »
1) I think it would make more sense in Level Select for the "Xmas Lemmings" subgroup to be renamed to "Holiday Lemmings" and for the "New Year Lemmings..." collection to be moved inside this subgroup in addition to the "Holiday Lemmings 1993 & 1994" and "Xmas Lemmings 91 & 92" collections.

Yes, good idea. I'll make this change in the next major update (2.8).

2) In the "Covox Lemmings" collection there are only two levels per difficulty, whereas in the SupperLemminiToo "Save the Lemmings" collection there are six levels per difficulty.  Would it be possible please to add these levels into SuperLemmix in a future release?

The levels you're referring to are part of the Prima Publishing pack, which is included in the DMA Lemmings compilation. In SLToo, these levels were combined with the Covox ones to make "Save The Lemmings".

I'd be happy to update the compilation to gather the more incidental bonus levels such as these together in one place. So, for example, we could combine Prima, Covox and the Bonus ranks from Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings all together into one mini-pack within the DMA compilation.

Do people think this is a good idea? Or, would people prefer for these levels to remain separately grouped?

Offline Tygerboi

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2024, 02:10:48 AM »
I'd be happy to update the compilation to gather the more incidental bonus levels such as these together in one place
...
Do people think this is a good idea? Or, would people prefer for these levels to remain separately grouped?

Yes, that sounds like a fab idea! :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: April 24, 2024, 01:30:01 PM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2024, 01:24:45 PM »
Yes, that sounds like a fab idea! :thumbsup:

OK cool! 8-) Well, since there's only been 1 reply and it's from someone who strongly agrees, let's go ahead and combine the following into a single pack:

DMA Lemmings Compilation / Lemmings / Bonus
DMA Lemmings Compilation / Lemmings Extra / Covox Lemmings
DMA Lemmings Compilation / Lemmings Extra / Prima Lemmings
DMA Lemmings Compilation / Oh No! More Lemmings / Bonus

Any ideas/suggestions as to ordering, grouping, title, logo? If there are none, I'll go ahead and come up with something myself in time for the next update.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2024, 03:17:08 PM »
All I will say is that I strongly oppose "Bonus" as the title for this pack or any of its subfolders. I know we had this discussion already in NL, but there it was my decision so I didn't feel obliged to lay out my reasons :P

This folder contains levels from various versions of Lemmings, such as "Going Their Separate Ways" from the Mac version. In their source games, they are regular levels that you would encounter in the normal course of play just like any other level. Granted, they have been regrouped in NL (and SLX) because the main Lemmings / Fun, Tricky, Taxing and Mayhem folders contain only the Amiga levels, but they are not bonus levels.

I don't know if I ever made a final decision on the folder name for these levels in NL... currently on my installation the folder is "Misc Levels", which is okay I guess.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2024, 08:22:32 PM »
All I will say is that I strongly oppose "Bonus" as the title for this pack or any of its subfolders ... currently on my installation the folder is "Misc Levels", which is okay I guess.

Happy not to go with "Bonus" as a title, for sure. The groups will meanwhile likely stay as Fun, Tricky, Taxing and Mayhem.

"Misc" isn't massively better, though, tbh. "Save The Lemmings" (title used by SLToo for these levels) is OK, but I'm sure we can even do better than that.

Ideas welcome, now's the time to pitch in!

Offline Tygerboi

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2024, 01:57:10 AM »
All I will say is that I strongly oppose "Bonus" as the title for this pack or any of its subfolders. I know we had this discussion already in NL, but there it was my decision so I didn't feel obliged to lay out my reasons :P

This folder contains levels from various versions of Lemmings, such as "Going Their Separate Ways" from the Mac version. In their source games, they are regular levels that you would encounter in the normal course of play just like any other level. Granted, they have been regrouped in NL (and SLX) because the main Lemmings / Fun, Tricky, Taxing and Mayhem folders contain only the Amiga levels, but they are not bonus levels.

I don't know if I ever made a final decision on the folder name for these levels in NL... currently on my installation the folder is "Misc Levels", which is okay I guess.

I also agree about not using the name "bonus", but also agree about "Misc" not being great either.  I always thought that "Save the Lemmings" in SLT was a bit lame, as saving the lemmings is the entire raison d'être of ALL the Lemmings levels/games (apart from PD spin-offs such as "Operation Lemming") but will have a think about a better name, and if anything comes to mind, I will post back here.


Just out of interest, how many levels are there in SLX that are vanilla Mac levels?  If there are enough to make it worthwhile, wouldn't it be better to move them into a "Mac Lemmings" level set along with the "NES Lemmings", "ZX Spectrum Levels", etc inside the 'Lemmings Extra' group?  I have never played the Mac version of Lemmings, so I'm assuming that most of the levels are the same as the Amiga version but with a few variations?  Or are the majority/many of the levels different? If the latter, could these Mac-specific levels all be brought into SLX as this would help to populate an aforementioned "Mac Lemmings" group? As with the other format groups, this one would obviously still be organised into Fun, Tricky, Taxing, Mayhem folders.  I realise that this could be a massive ask if there are a lot of unique Mac levels not already in SLX, but, in the interests of definitive completeness.... ;)


Actually, on the subject of completeness, are there any (other) level packs that were created for SLT which could be successfully converted to/imported into SLX, that could then be included in this "Misc"-yet-to-be-named group?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2024, 03:26:09 AM by Tygerboi »

Offline Proxima

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2024, 02:38:09 AM »
There is only one Mac-specific level, "Going Their Separate Ways", which replaces "All the 6's" as Tricky 21.

Offline Tygerboi

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2024, 02:53:02 AM »
There is only one Mac-specific level, "Going Their Separate Ways", which replaces "All the 6's" as Tricky 21.


OK, thanks for the info!  :)

Offline WillLem

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2024, 12:48:12 PM »
I tend to take Amiga L1 as being the de facto "original", for which other ports/versions provide replacement or additional levels. In my own view, this isn't arbitrary; the game was designed for and on the Amiga, so I'll always tend to see that as the true original version (the fact I grew up with an A500+ has some bearing on this view as well, admittedly!). Some ports (DOS, Atari ST) reproduce the game level-for-level without replacing or adding anything, whilst others remove levels but don't replace them (Windows 95).

Here's how the current non-L1/OhNo/Holiday levels break down in terms of number of levels, and whether they are "replacement" levels (i.e. replacements for Amiga/DOS L1 levels), "additional" (i.e. provided in addition to Amiga/DOS L1 + replacements), or whether it's completely its own game (i.e. independent from Amiga/DOS L1 entirely).

"Bonus" groupss in L1 and OhNo:

(L1 "Bonus" - Taken from various ports including Mac and SNES) - 10 (replacement)
(Oh No! "Bonus" - a DOS replacement of a level from Holiday Lemmings) - 1 (replacement)

And then, in the "Extra" group:

Covox - 8 (additional)
NES - 25 (replacement)
PSP - 36 (additional)
PS3 - 45 (its own game)
Prima - 16 (additional)
Genesis - 45 (replacement) | Present - 30 (additional) | Sunsoft - 30 (additional)
SMS - 12 (replacement)
ZX Spectrum - 16 (replacement)

That's 274 levels altogether, probably too many to make into a single pack, but if we keep the PS3 levels as their own pack, we could potentially divide the remaining 229 levels into 2 packs.

"Yippee! Even More Lemmings" would be a good title, as it follows on from the idea of the "Oh No!" title and would technically be an expansion pack if we use only "additional" levels to build it (there just happens to be exactly 120 additional levels - perfect for a 4-grouper with 30 levels per-group!)

That leaves 109 "replacement" levels which are port-specific. Perhaps "Multiverse Lemmings" or "Parallel Lemmings" might be a good title for this, or if people don't like the idea of seeing non-Amiga/DOS levels as "alternatives", we could go with something else.

Thoughts?

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2024, 01:48:09 PM »
I like the suggested names for the levels.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2024, 03:16:03 PM »
Let’s go with “Multiverse Lemmings” for the 109 port replacement levels. We can fashion the logo using letters from the various ports.

Rather than just have 109 levels though, which obviously doesn’t split nicely into groups without remainders, we should add 11 levels to make it 120 and have 4 groups of 30 levels.

To achieve this, we can do one (or a mix) of the following:

1) Choose our favourite 11 levels from L1 and remake them using OhNo! styles.
2) Choose 11 levels which are interesting in their Mac/SNES versions due to different RR, different numbers of lemmings, etc, and include those versions (only modifying the alternative elements, otherwise keeping the maps the same).
3) Include 11 L1 levels with different skillsets (but identical maps).

Suggestions welcome.

Offline Tygerboi

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2024, 02:07:07 AM »
I completely agree about the Amiga version being the "original" (or "OG")  version from which all subsequent versions and expansion/alternative levels were inspired.  That is undeniable fact.  I was also an A500+ (and shortly thereafter an A1200) owner back in 1991/2 when the Lemmings were unleashed upon the world, although I did also play on the slightly-technically-improved Acorn Archimedes version at secondary school.  As far as I can recall, the Archie had no extra/different levels though.


I like the name "Multiverse Lemmings" (being a sci-fi fan).  Would it perhaps be better to merge all of the Playstation-specific levels (PSP and PS3) into one single"Playstation Levels" pack as there are collectively 79 levels.  With one extra level added (perhaps a variation of one of the existing PS levels) you could then have four 20-level Fun/Tricky/Taxing/Mayhem groups as with the other level packs.


This would then leave 84 'additional' levels in the new ""Yippee! Even More Lemmings" pack (I like that name too, btw) which could be divided up into four groups (F/Tr/Ta/M) of 21 levels   Perhaps not quite as numerically neat as your suggestion, but if you're thinking of adding in extra/variation levels for the "Multiverse Lemmings", then surely what's good for the goose is good for the gander?  In this line of thinking, and since "Yippee..." would be an expansion pack in the same way that 'Oh No! More Lemmings' is (effectively) an expansion pack, maybe having five level groups as in ONML, i.e. Tame, Crazy, Wild, Wicked Havoc.  However, 84/5=16.8 so it would need four more variation levels per group to make it work nicely - 20 levels per group, as ONML has got, in fact.


Regarding your suggestions for the nature of the variation levels, and in light of the above suggestions, could options 1 and 3 not be combined for the Yippee variations?  That would effectively 'remaster' existing levels with a new look and feel, with different level music (ONML music) from their original incarnations, without actually introducing any entirely new levels.  One Option 3 variation possibility could be maybe doing a 'Reverse Lemmings'-style entrance/exit location swap with skill tweaks as necessary?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 11:55:32 AM by Tygerboi »

Offline Herby

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2024, 11:37:54 AM »
I, reading Lemmings wiki founded: On SNES version at least 2 ground differences in original levels.
Taxing 14 - Removed one spike and island before "head of Nessy"
Mayhem 30 - island with bear trap is smaller.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2024, 11:50:48 AM »
Would it perhaps be better to merge all of the Playstation-specific levels (PSP and PS3) into one single"Playstation Levels" pack as there are collectively 79 levels.  With one extra level added (perhaps a variation of one of the existing PS levels) you could then have four 20-level Fun/Tricky/Taxing/Mayhem groups as with the other level packs.

It's a good idea in principle, but I'd personally prefer to leave them separate tbh. The PS3 levels are their own complete pack, and have a relatively unique theme in that they often involve non-OG items such as pickup skills and teleporters; combining them with the PSP levels would perhaps be something of a mis-match. Also, it would then leave an unbalanced number of levels for the "Yippee!" pack; it's come out pretty nicely that there are exactly 120 additional levels, my honest thoughts are to keep it that way and not introduce the need to add more levels.

With that said, we still have 11 levels to conjure up for the "Multiverse" pack, which might not seem like a lot but in the context of this project it could end up being quite difficult to get even that many! In particular, we could do with knowing which levels are more interesting in their Mac/SNES counterparts, as that will offer up ready-to-go existing content without the need to do too much extra work. Even then, we may end up needing to create a few alternative-skillset/layout levels anyway, so please do share any specific ideas you might have and they will absolutely be considered for inclusion.

Incidentally, I'm by no means a stranger to the idea of remixing OG levels (see my existing made-for-NL Remix Packs!), so please don't mistake my conservative approach to the DMA Compilation as a lack of creativity. It's more that the idea here is to present a faithful compilation of OG levels rather than custom content. If you're excited about the prospect of getting a bit more creative with it, I'd definitely be up for collaboration on a separate project. For instance:

One Option 3 variation possibility could be maybe doing a 'Reverse Lemmings'-style entrance/exit location swap with skill tweaks as necessary?

I currently intend to re-release The Complete Reverse Lemmings for SuperLemmix at some point and, if you're interested in getting involved with the project, you're very welcome to collaborate. In particular, it would be good to include another set of levels from the replacement/additional/Holiday material, as well as tweaking and refining the existing reverse L1/OhNo! levels, which haven't been looked at for some time. I'll get a topic started for it soon; it's absolutely something we can work on together if you have any ideas and want to get involved! :lemcat:

I, reading Lemmings wiki founded: On SNES version at least 2 ground differences in original levels.
Taxing 14 - Removed one spike and island before "head of Nessy"
Mayhem 30 - island with bear trap is smaller.

Yes, this is the sort of thing we need to look out for. Do you know of any levels with different skillsets but identical maps?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 11:57:49 AM by WillLem »