Author Topic: [DISC][FEAT] Included Level Packs [VOLUNTEERS WANTED]  (Read 3515 times)

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Offline WillLem

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[DISC][FEAT] Included Level Packs [VOLUNTEERS WANTED]
« on: February 14, 2023, 10:19:01 PM »
SuperLemmix will ship with the following packs:

:lemming: DMA Compilation Pack - all OG levels fully restored and with relevant logos. This project is in progress and is nearly complete.

:lemming: SuperLemmix Welcome Pack - this will include levels showcasing any engine-specific features that don't appear in NeoLemmix.
« Last Edit: July 07, 2024, 03:45:32 PM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2024, 11:30:47 PM »
1) I think it would make more sense in Level Select for the "Xmas Lemmings" subgroup to be renamed to "Holiday Lemmings" and for the "New Year Lemmings..." collection to be moved inside this subgroup in addition to the "Holiday Lemmings 1993 & 1994" and "Xmas Lemmings 91 & 92" collections.

Yes, good idea. I'll make this change in the next major update (2.8).

2) In the "Covox Lemmings" collection there are only two levels per difficulty, whereas in the SupperLemminiToo "Save the Lemmings" collection there are six levels per difficulty.  Would it be possible please to add these levels into SuperLemmix in a future release?

The levels you're referring to are part of the Prima Publishing pack, which is included in the DMA Lemmings compilation. In SLToo, these levels were combined with the Covox ones to make "Save The Lemmings".

I'd be happy to update the compilation to gather the more incidental bonus levels such as these together in one place. So, for example, we could combine Prima, Covox and the Bonus ranks from Lemmings and Oh No! More Lemmings all together into one mini-pack within the DMA compilation.

Do people think this is a good idea? Or, would people prefer for these levels to remain separately grouped?

Offline Tygerboi

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #2 on: April 24, 2024, 02:10:48 AM »
I'd be happy to update the compilation to gather the more incidental bonus levels such as these together in one place
...
Do people think this is a good idea? Or, would people prefer for these levels to remain separately grouped?

Yes, that sounds like a fab idea! :thumbsup:
« Last Edit: April 24, 2024, 01:30:01 PM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #3 on: April 24, 2024, 01:24:45 PM »
Yes, that sounds like a fab idea! :thumbsup:

OK cool! 8-) Well, since there's only been 1 reply and it's from someone who strongly agrees, let's go ahead and combine the following into a single pack:

DMA Lemmings Compilation / Lemmings / Bonus
DMA Lemmings Compilation / Lemmings Extra / Covox Lemmings
DMA Lemmings Compilation / Lemmings Extra / Prima Lemmings
DMA Lemmings Compilation / Oh No! More Lemmings / Bonus

Any ideas/suggestions as to ordering, grouping, title, logo? If there are none, I'll go ahead and come up with something myself in time for the next update.

Online Proxima

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #4 on: April 24, 2024, 03:17:08 PM »
All I will say is that I strongly oppose "Bonus" as the title for this pack or any of its subfolders. I know we had this discussion already in NL, but there it was my decision so I didn't feel obliged to lay out my reasons :P

This folder contains levels from various versions of Lemmings, such as "Going Their Separate Ways" from the Mac version. In their source games, they are regular levels that you would encounter in the normal course of play just like any other level. Granted, they have been regrouped in NL (and SLX) because the main Lemmings / Fun, Tricky, Taxing and Mayhem folders contain only the Amiga levels, but they are not bonus levels.

I don't know if I ever made a final decision on the folder name for these levels in NL... currently on my installation the folder is "Misc Levels", which is okay I guess.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #5 on: April 24, 2024, 08:22:32 PM »
All I will say is that I strongly oppose "Bonus" as the title for this pack or any of its subfolders ... currently on my installation the folder is "Misc Levels", which is okay I guess.

Happy not to go with "Bonus" as a title, for sure. The groups will meanwhile likely stay as Fun, Tricky, Taxing and Mayhem.

"Misc" isn't massively better, though, tbh. "Save The Lemmings" (title used by SLToo for these levels) is OK, but I'm sure we can even do better than that.

Ideas welcome, now's the time to pitch in!

Offline Tygerboi

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #6 on: May 11, 2024, 01:57:10 AM »
All I will say is that I strongly oppose "Bonus" as the title for this pack or any of its subfolders. I know we had this discussion already in NL, but there it was my decision so I didn't feel obliged to lay out my reasons :P

This folder contains levels from various versions of Lemmings, such as "Going Their Separate Ways" from the Mac version. In their source games, they are regular levels that you would encounter in the normal course of play just like any other level. Granted, they have been regrouped in NL (and SLX) because the main Lemmings / Fun, Tricky, Taxing and Mayhem folders contain only the Amiga levels, but they are not bonus levels.

I don't know if I ever made a final decision on the folder name for these levels in NL... currently on my installation the folder is "Misc Levels", which is okay I guess.

I also agree about not using the name "bonus", but also agree about "Misc" not being great either.  I always thought that "Save the Lemmings" in SLT was a bit lame, as saving the lemmings is the entire raison d'être of ALL the Lemmings levels/games (apart from PD spin-offs such as "Operation Lemming") but will have a think about a better name, and if anything comes to mind, I will post back here.


Just out of interest, how many levels are there in SLX that are vanilla Mac levels?  If there are enough to make it worthwhile, wouldn't it be better to move them into a "Mac Lemmings" level set along with the "NES Lemmings", "ZX Spectrum Levels", etc inside the 'Lemmings Extra' group?  I have never played the Mac version of Lemmings, so I'm assuming that most of the levels are the same as the Amiga version but with a few variations?  Or are the majority/many of the levels different? If the latter, could these Mac-specific levels all be brought into SLX as this would help to populate an aforementioned "Mac Lemmings" group? As with the other format groups, this one would obviously still be organised into Fun, Tricky, Taxing, Mayhem folders.  I realise that this could be a massive ask if there are a lot of unique Mac levels not already in SLX, but, in the interests of definitive completeness.... ;)


Actually, on the subject of completeness, are there any (other) level packs that were created for SLT which could be successfully converted to/imported into SLX, that could then be included in this "Misc"-yet-to-be-named group?
« Last Edit: May 11, 2024, 03:26:09 AM by Tygerboi »

Online Proxima

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #7 on: May 11, 2024, 02:38:09 AM »
There is only one Mac-specific level, "Going Their Separate Ways", which replaces "All the 6's" as Tricky 21.

Offline Tygerboi

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2024, 02:53:02 AM »
There is only one Mac-specific level, "Going Their Separate Ways", which replaces "All the 6's" as Tricky 21.


OK, thanks for the info!  :)

Offline WillLem

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2024, 12:48:12 PM »
I tend to take Amiga L1 as being the de facto "original", for which other ports/versions provide replacement or additional levels. In my own view, this isn't arbitrary; the game was designed for and on the Amiga, so I'll always tend to see that as the true original version (the fact I grew up with an A500+ has some bearing on this view as well, admittedly!). Some ports (DOS, Atari ST) reproduce the game level-for-level without replacing or adding anything, whilst others remove levels but don't replace them (Windows 95).

Here's how the current non-L1/OhNo/Holiday levels break down in terms of number of levels, and whether they are "replacement" levels (i.e. replacements for Amiga/DOS L1 levels), "additional" (i.e. provided in addition to Amiga/DOS L1 + replacements), or whether it's completely its own game (i.e. independent from Amiga/DOS L1 entirely).

"Bonus" groups in L1 and OhNo:

(L1 "Bonus" - Taken from various ports including Mac and SNES) - 10 (replacement)
(Oh No! "Bonus" - a DOS replacement of a level from Holiday Lemmings) - 1 (replacement)

And then, in the "Extra" group:

Covox - 8 (additional)
NES - 25 (replacement)
PSP - 36 (additional)
PS3 - 45 (its own game)
Prima - 16 (additional)
Genesis - 45 (replacement) | Present - 30 (additional) | Sunsoft - 30 (additional)
SMS - 12 (replacement)
ZX Spectrum - 16 (replacement)

That's 274 levels altogether, probably too many to make into a single pack, but if we keep the PS3 levels as their own pack, we could potentially divide the remaining 229 levels into 2 packs.

"Yippee! Even More Lemmings" would be a good title, as it follows on from the idea of the "Oh No!" title and would technically be an expansion pack if we use only "additional" levels to build it (there just happens to be exactly 120 additional levels - perfect for a 4-grouper with 30 levels per-group!)

That leaves 109 "replacement" levels which are port-specific. Perhaps "Multiverse Lemmings" or "Parallel Lemmings" might be a good title for this, or if people don't like the idea of seeing non-Amiga/DOS levels as "alternatives", we could go with something else.

Thoughts?
« Last Edit: June 06, 2024, 02:50:30 PM by WillLem »

Offline jkapp76

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2024, 01:48:09 PM »
I like the suggested names for the levels.
...Jeremy Kapp

Offline WillLem

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2024, 03:16:03 PM »
Let’s go with “Multiverse Lemmings” for the 109 port replacement levels. We can fashion the logo using letters from the various ports.

Rather than just have 109 levels though, which obviously doesn’t split nicely into groups without remainders, we should add 11 levels to make it 120 and have 4 groups of 30 levels.

To achieve this, we can do one (or a mix) of the following:

1) Choose our favourite 11 levels from L1 and remake them using OhNo! styles.
2) Choose 11 levels which are interesting in their Mac/SNES versions due to different RR, different numbers of lemmings, etc, and include those versions (only modifying the alternative elements, otherwise keeping the maps the same).
3) Include 11 L1 levels with different skillsets (but identical maps).

Suggestions welcome.

Offline Tygerboi

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2024, 02:07:07 AM »
I completely agree about the Amiga version being the "original" (or "OG")  version from which all subsequent versions and expansion/alternative levels were inspired.  That is undeniable fact.  I was also an A500+ (and shortly thereafter an A1200) owner back in 1991/2 when the Lemmings were unleashed upon the world, although I did also play on the slightly-technically-improved Acorn Archimedes version at secondary school.  As far as I can recall, the Archie had no extra/different levels though.


I like the name "Multiverse Lemmings" (being a sci-fi fan).  Would it perhaps be better to merge all of the Playstation-specific levels (PSP and PS3) into one single"Playstation Levels" pack as there are collectively 79 levels.  With one extra level added (perhaps a variation of one of the existing PS levels) you could then have four 20-level Fun/Tricky/Taxing/Mayhem groups as with the other level packs.


This would then leave 84 'additional' levels in the new ""Yippee! Even More Lemmings" pack (I like that name too, btw) which could be divided up into four groups (F/Tr/Ta/M) of 21 levels   Perhaps not quite as numerically neat as your suggestion, but if you're thinking of adding in extra/variation levels for the "Multiverse Lemmings", then surely what's good for the goose is good for the gander?  In this line of thinking, and since "Yippee..." would be an expansion pack in the same way that 'Oh No! More Lemmings' is (effectively) an expansion pack, maybe having five level groups as in ONML, i.e. Tame, Crazy, Wild, Wicked Havoc.  However, 84/5=16.8 so it would need four more variation levels per group to make it work nicely - 20 levels per group, as ONML has got, in fact.


Regarding your suggestions for the nature of the variation levels, and in light of the above suggestions, could options 1 and 3 not be combined for the Yippee variations?  That would effectively 'remaster' existing levels with a new look and feel, with different level music (ONML music) from their original incarnations, without actually introducing any entirely new levels.  One Option 3 variation possibility could be maybe doing a 'Reverse Lemmings'-style entrance/exit location swap with skill tweaks as necessary?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 11:55:32 AM by Tygerboi »

Offline Herby

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2024, 11:37:54 AM »
I, reading Lemmings wiki founded: On SNES version at least 2 ground differences in original levels.
Taxing 14 - Removed one spike and island before "head of Nessy"
Mayhem 30 - island with bear trap is smaller.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2024, 11:50:48 AM »
Would it perhaps be better to merge all of the Playstation-specific levels (PSP and PS3) into one single"Playstation Levels" pack as there are collectively 79 levels.  With one extra level added (perhaps a variation of one of the existing PS levels) you could then have four 20-level Fun/Tricky/Taxing/Mayhem groups as with the other level packs.

It's a good idea in principle, but I'd personally prefer to leave them separate tbh. The PS3 levels are their own complete pack, and have a relatively unique theme in that they often involve non-OG items such as pickup skills and teleporters; combining them with the PSP levels would perhaps be something of a mis-match. Also, it would then leave an unbalanced number of levels for the "Yippee!" pack; it's come out pretty nicely that there are exactly 120 additional levels, my honest thoughts are to keep it that way and not introduce the need to add more levels.

With that said, we still have 11 levels to conjure up for the "Multiverse" pack, which might not seem like a lot but in the context of this project it could end up being quite difficult to get even that many! In particular, we could do with knowing which levels are more interesting in their Mac/SNES counterparts, as that will offer up ready-to-go existing content without the need to do too much extra work. Even then, we may end up needing to create a few alternative-skillset/layout levels anyway, so please do share any specific ideas you might have and they will absolutely be considered for inclusion.

Incidentally, I'm by no means a stranger to the idea of remixing OG levels (see my existing made-for-NL Remix Packs!), so please don't mistake my conservative approach to the DMA Compilation as a lack of creativity. It's more that the idea here is to present a faithful compilation of OG levels rather than custom content. If you're excited about the prospect of getting a bit more creative with it, I'd definitely be up for collaboration on a separate project. For instance:

One Option 3 variation possibility could be maybe doing a 'Reverse Lemmings'-style entrance/exit location swap with skill tweaks as necessary?

I currently intend to re-release The Complete Reverse Lemmings for SuperLemmix at some point and, if you're interested in getting involved with the project, you're very welcome to collaborate. In particular, it would be good to include another set of levels from the replacement/additional/Holiday material, as well as tweaking and refining the existing reverse L1/OhNo! levels, which haven't been looked at for some time. I'll get a topic started for it soon; it's absolutely something we can work on together if you have any ideas and want to get involved! :lemcat:

I, reading Lemmings wiki founded: On SNES version at least 2 ground differences in original levels.
Taxing 14 - Removed one spike and island before "head of Nessy"
Mayhem 30 - island with bear trap is smaller.

Yes, this is the sort of thing we need to look out for. Do you know of any levels with different skillsets but identical maps?
« Last Edit: May 15, 2024, 11:57:49 AM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2024, 03:27:57 PM »
We need 11 levels, each of which should match at least one of the following descriptions (i.e. it can be two or more, or you can add your own ideas as long as at least one of these is fulfilled):

1) An L1 level remade using OhNo! styles
2) An L1 level with Mac/SNES counterpart RR/lem count/save req/etc
3) An L1 level with remixed skillset

Some ideas, pending Forum contribution:

:lemming: Mac version of Steel Mines Of Kessel, featuring 80 lems and a 90% save requirement
:lemming: "Missing repeat" level Mind The Gap - a "repeat" of Tricky 1 This Should Be A Doddle with more limited skillset and save requirement
:lemming: "Missing repeat" level Lemmingade Zero - a "repeat" of Fun 3 Tailor-made For Blockers with 0 Blockers

That sort of thing. (Specific) ideas welcome...
« Last Edit: July 07, 2024, 03:58:08 PM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][FEAT] Included Level Packs
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2024, 06:42:13 PM »
Originally posted 7/7/24

Volunteers Wanted

Well... this is now the only thing slowing down the release of 2.8. I can't manage all of this by myself, so this is a shout out for help with getting this last piece in place. The more the merrier, so don't be shy if you want to get stuck in and help out!

Here's what's needed:



TASK A Completed!

:lemming: TASK A - 120 levels for Yippee! Even More Lemmings need to be sorted into 4 groups of 30 levels

Ideal requirement: 4+ volunteers including myself (30 or fewer levels each)
Minimum requirement*: 2 volunteers including myself (60 levels each)

This is by far the biggest task, and will likely take a minimum of 1-3 hours depending on how well you know the levels and how quickly you can make decisions about difficulty, etc. For now, this task will only involve sorting the levels into 4 difficulty groups - ordering is a different task and will need to be postponed until this task is completed.




:lemming: TASK B - Lemmings Multiverse and Yippee! Even More Lemmings levels need ordering within their groups

Ideal requirement: 8 volunteers including myself (1 group each)
Minimum requirement*: 2 volunteers including myself (4 groups each)

There are 4 groups of 30 levels in each pack; each group simply needs to be ordered (i.e. the levels have already been sorted into groups). This should take about 1-2 hours per group depending on how well you know the levels and how experienced you are at building level packs. If you're relatively inexperienced, it will probably take longer, but can be seen as a very good exercise that may help you when it comes to building your own pack in the future!



:lemming: TASK C - Lemmings Multiverse needs 11 more levels

Ideal requirement: 11 volunteers including myself (1 level each)
Minimum requirement*: No minimum volunteer requirement (i.e. I'm happy to contribute all 11 levels myself if necessary), but Task A and Task B must have enough volunteers for this task to go ahead

See this post for details. If you can contribute just 1 level, that's better than nothing.



*Please note:

I'm leaving this request up for 7 days (until 14/07/24). The minimum requirement for each task must be met within this time for this project to go ahead.

If we only get volunteers/contributions for Task C, and none for Tasks A and B, this will mean that the minimum requirement for Task C has not been met.

If the minimum requirement for all tasks has not been met, then the DMA Compilation Pack will stay as it is (apart from grouping the Holiday levels as Tygerboi suggested, that's already been done) and the proposed re-groupings will be cancelled due to lack of interest/support.

If you wish to put yourself forward as a volunteer to get some of this done, thank you! Please reply to this post and mention which task(s) you'd be interested in helping with. The more the merrier - hopefully this can prove to be an interesting community project! :lemcat:
« Last Edit: July 10, 2024, 04:17:49 PM by WillLem »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][FEAT] Included Level Packs [VOLUNTEERS WANTED]
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2024, 03:42:02 PM »
Thanks to @ericderkovits who has volunteered for and completed Task A by himself - great work, Eric! 8-):thumbsup:

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Re: [DISC][FEAT] Included Level Packs [VOLUNTEERS WANTED]
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2024, 04:00:55 PM »
I'm not sure how much I believe in this project, but if it's going to be done, it's worth making sure it gets done well :P so I could help with task B if you can give us the groups from task A as a starting point.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][FEAT] Included Level Packs [VOLUNTEERS WANTED]
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2024, 04:11:05 PM »
if it's going to be done, it's worth making sure it gets done well :P so I could help with task B if you can give us the groups from task A as a starting point.

Agreed, thanks Proxima. Your help with this will be much appreciated!



We have all levels grouped into 4 categories in each pack now. All that remains is to order the levels within their groups. So, let's concentrate on ordering for now.



If you (yes, you!) want to take part, please grab one or both of the zips and have a look at the groups of levels. At present, they are grouped more or less correctly by difficulty, but now need to be ordered from 1-30 within each group.

However you decide to order them, please keep the level filename the same, and only change the number at the start. So, for example, let's say that it's decided that this level should be level 15:

06_Lemming_And_Lime

It would need to be renamed to:

15_Lemming_And_Lime

Even if you only order 1 group of levels, that's a valuable contribution to the project. Post your ordered group here in a zip or PM it to me on here or Discord.

N.B. Don't worry about the groups in Multiverse that have less than 30 levels - these can still be ordered, and the 11 additional levels can be worked in later. The important thing at this point is to get a basic order sorted, which can later be re-worked as necessary.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [DISC][FEAT] Included Level Packs [VOLUNTEERS WANTED]
« Reply #20 on: July 12, 2024, 11:28:19 PM »
Heads up for volunteers!

Any levels in ohno_brick, ohno_rock and ohno_snow may have exits in the "wrong" position (i.e. too high or too low) - this is not incorrect!

These styles have been updated in SLX 2.8, and the exits are in fact in the correct position for the updated styles. This update has been made in part due to Rivals exit markers now being a thing, and in part due to improved number positions for exits with lem caps.

So, if you wish to playtest the levels, my advice would be to do so using a copy of SLX 2.7.3 and the "old" version of the level. Or, if that's inconvenient and you'd rather just move the exit, that's OK. I'll most likely use a fresh copy to compile the pack anyway, and simply update the ordering as suggested.