Author Topic: [SUG][EDITOR] Levels with no exit  (Read 1743 times)

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Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][EDITOR] Levels with no exit
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2021, 07:03:54 AM »
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However - I feel it is wrong to assume the player doesn't want to save replays in the case of an incomplete level.

On further thought, I'm not really sure that this is any different from not auto-saving replays that do not solve the level...

Offline Proxima

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Re: [SUG][EDITOR] Levels with no exit
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2021, 02:43:50 PM »
I feel fairly confident that most users wouldn't want to auto-save replays for an incomplete level, if it's so incomplete that the exit hasn't been placed yet, because you can't save any lemmings. If there is some reason the user wants to save a replay of something they do on the level, manual saving is available.

Offline Simon

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Re: [SUG][EDITOR] Levels with no exit
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2021, 05:50:29 PM »
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However - I feel it is wrong to assume the player doesn't want to save replays in the case of an incomplete level.

Yes, sometimes, the player wants to save replays of incomplete levels. Then he will save manually.

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On the other hand, nothing is lost by not saving an empty replay.

First, I call this (d): When a replay would be autosaved, if it is empty, we don't autosave.

And then I'm thoroughly confused ??? because implementing (d) seems entirely orthogonal to the original issue, or to (a)/(b)/(c). Consider: We start playtesting the exitless map, we win immediately, we assign some skills, then we exit. We have a nonempty replay that solves the map, and it should be autosaved according (d), but I doubt that we want that.

Also, there are levels where the intended solution is empty. Under (d), the player ends with incomplete pack coverage after solving the entire pack.

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(c) a special case is introduced where the "save requirement gets capped to number of lemmings that there's exit capacity for" rule doesn't get applied on levels with no exits.

Still, I feel like this is the best. If the level is a sandbox, author sets the save requirement to 0 and whatever the player does, player will solve and game, enacting rule (c), will autosave replay. Edit: Here, you can additionally filter the empty replays with (d), which is very good.

Edited for clarity: If an unfinished puzzle with author's requirement ≥ 1 gets playtested without exits, (c) won't cap, therefore the replay is never solved because the save requirement is unreachable, and replay will never autosave under (c).

-- Simon
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 04:34:07 AM by Simon »

Offline WillLem

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Re: [SUG][EDITOR] Levels with no exit
« Reply #18 on: October 13, 2021, 12:11:58 AM »
author sets the save requirement to 0 and whatever the player does, player will solve and game will autosave replay. If the level gets playtested without exits, it's never solved because the save requirement is unreachable, and replay will never autosave.

Why is the save requirement unreachable? 0 is reached the instant the level is loaded, according to namida's explanation of how the autosave feature works in this scenario.

Offline Proxima

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Re: [SUG][EDITOR] Levels with no exit
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2021, 12:24:49 AM »
Simon was describing two separate scenarios:

"If the level is a sandbox, author sets the save requirement to 0 and whatever the player does, player will solve and game will autosave replay." -- requirement is 0

"If the level gets playtested without exits, it's never solved because the save requirement is unreachable, and replay will never autosave." -- requirement is not 0

Offline Simon

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Re: [SUG][EDITOR] Levels with no exit
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2021, 04:27:01 AM »
Right, I meant two separate use cases. I didn't write clearly, good catch. I've edited for clarity.

In addition, for the sandboxes, i.e., exitless maps that have save requirement 0 set by the author, you can employ (d) on top of (c). Here, (d) is really good. This also clears the confusion, (d) is so natural for sandboxes that it explains why namida began thinking of (d) in the first place.

But for normal puzzles with author's requirement ≥ 1, (d) is still weird.



Reminder:
(a) nothing changes
(b) after capping save requirement, if it is 0, never autosave
(b') after capping save requirement, if it is 0, autosave on saving ≥ 1.
(c) exitless map won't cap save requirement to exit capacity
(d) empty replays never autosave

-- Simon
« Last Edit: October 13, 2021, 04:34:58 AM by Simon »

Offline Dullstar

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Re: [SUG][EDITOR] Levels with no exit
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2021, 09:12:23 PM »
Using the labels in Simon's most recent post, (b') is probably the best solution in my opinion.
Empty replays may still be desirable on self-solving levels (aside: I feel like these levels are pointless, but they do exist) for the purpose of maintaining a complete proof collection, which is a common enough use case that it would be worth supporting through the auto-save system. But even on a sandbox, though, it's unlikely you'd want to save your replay of saving 0.

Offline namida

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Re: [SUG][EDITOR] Levels with no exit
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2021, 10:00:50 PM »
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(b') after capping save requirement, if it is 0, autosave on saving ≥ 1.

Tracking whether the save requirement was capped or is just a literal 0 is not an option due to how the capping works (specifically, it alters the level's data at load time). However, as a general rule (for all cases) "if save requirement is 0, autosave when 1 rescued" is workable.