Author Topic: [EDGE CASE][PLAYER] Precise digger can cause slider to not slide  (Read 1214 times)

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Offline namida

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To reproduce: Play attached level. Assign diggers such that they take away the full 9 pixels at the edge. Notice the 3rd Slider from the left does not slide at all. (The other three display varying-length finite variations of the Slider-Digger infinite loop.)

On the surface, this seems awkward. However, it actually makes sense to some extent if viewed in the context of "what would happen if a more significant amount of terrain were removed, instead of just 1 pixel" - it's just that doing this with a digger is a really, really precise setup compared to, say, a bomber. Although even in these other cases, the destruction would have to occur exactly as the lemming walks off the edge - but there's no logical other behavior if, say, a bomber takes out a huge chunk at that exact time; the digger is a weird case where you could argue there's a logical behavior.

My preference overall is to leave this as-is, but I feel it does need to be put up for discussion at least. An alternative could be to have a 1px tolerance, but if more than 1px of terrain has been removed, this behavior continues - however, that's an edge case that's pretty much specific to the digger (and a few pixel-precise setups with other skills), so I'm not sure how justifiable it is. This is why I prefer the "do nothing" approach personally.
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Offline Dullstar

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Re: [EDGE CASE][PLAYER] Precise digger can cause slider to not slide
« Reply #1 on: June 22, 2021, 09:25:08 AM »
I think it's better to remove it to make the interaction more smooth and more consistent. If it were just a cool setup that you could make happen if you wanted, I might begrudgingly go along with it, but also consider that this could be triggered accidentally - it's that potential to accidentally trigger this edge case that makes this a firm no and not just a "I would prefer it if level designers don't make use of this."

Offline Proxima

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Re: [EDGE CASE][PLAYER] Precise digger can cause slider to not slide
« Reply #2 on: June 22, 2021, 10:30:51 AM »
I think it's better to remove it to make the interaction more smooth and more consistent. If it were just a cool setup that you could make happen if you wanted, I might begrudgingly go along with it, but also consider that this could be triggered accidentally - it's that potential to accidentally trigger this edge case that makes this a firm no and not just a "I would prefer it if level designers don't make use of this."

The parallel behaviour namida mentioned, where a bomber/basher/miner takes out a large chunk under a slider and makes him fall instead of slide, is clearly legitimate for use in puzzles; as once you've seen it happen, it is clear what happens and why, and there is really no other possible behaviour that could happen instead.

The case where 1 pixel is removed is a special case of this, and for consistency should behave the same way.

Offline NieSch

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Re: [EDGE CASE][PLAYER] Precise digger can cause slider to not slide
« Reply #3 on: June 22, 2021, 01:00:38 PM »
I agree with Proxima and namida.

Offline WillLem

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Re: [EDGE CASE][PLAYER] Precise digger can cause slider to not slide
« Reply #4 on: June 22, 2021, 04:06:37 PM »
Made a slight edit to the level so that it's possible to complete :lemcat:

Am I correct in guessing that the terrain being removed at the exact moment the Slider reaches the edge prevents them from entering the Dehoister phase?

If so, I agree that this makes sense and is essentially the same as cancelling any other skill by removing terrain from directly beneath their feet.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [EDGE CASE][PLAYER] Precise digger can cause slider to not slide
« Reply #5 on: June 22, 2021, 06:33:51 PM »
I can see both sides of the coin here.

It is precise and can happen unwillingly during playing, but it is also logical in its nature.

It gives me slight climber+basher loop vibes as it only happens rarely and it can happen if you really don't want it to happen.

There will also be inevitably levels relying on this precise behavior if we keep it.


I am also on the side of keeping it though.

Not because it is such a fun behavior, but it is really just the special case of the 1 pixel gap in the wall case and if there is a hole in the wall the slider should go in.

Removing it would need to lead to a rule where sliders cannot go into 1 pixel wall gaps otherwise it would be inconsequential and I think a slider should not ignore those 1 pixel gaps.

The digger just creates the hole in a very delicate point.

A possibility that the slider starts to slider 1 pixel lower to avoid the situation would also cause problems I assume.

This 100% needs to be covered in the intro pack though!

Offline namida

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Re: [EDGE CASE][PLAYER] Precise digger can cause slider to not slide
« Reply #6 on: June 22, 2021, 06:54:43 PM »
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This 100% needs to be covered in the intro pack though!

To the contrary, I see this as being more one of those "if it's impractical or illogical to block it, it should be discouraged" things.

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A possibility that the slider starts to slider 1 pixel lower to avoid the situation would also cause problems I assume.

At a quick thought, I don't see any issues with that beyond that it introduces a special rule, but eg. if it were two pixels removed (perhaps with some really precise timing with another destructive skill) should this still happen, etc? If so, where's the cutoff? (Maybe you meant specifically that 1 pixel is the cutoff, primarily to handle this specific case - although needs to be noted that it would in turn then apply to other cases where a different skill does 1px of damage - and in this case, I can think of a specific setup with a basher that might cause it.)
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Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [EDGE CASE][PLAYER] Precise digger can cause slider to not slide
« Reply #7 on: June 22, 2021, 07:07:21 PM »
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Maybe you meant specifically that 1 pixel is the cutoff, primarily to handle this specific case - although needs to be noted that it would in turn then apply to other cases where a different skill does 1px of damage - and in this case, I can think of a specific setup with a basher that might cause it

Yes, I exactly meant that 1 pixel is the cutoff and the basher etc cases are part of the problems I assumed when this would be introduced.

Offline namida

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Re: [EDGE CASE][PLAYER] Precise digger can cause slider to not slide
« Reply #8 on: June 22, 2021, 07:23:09 PM »
Alright - I think it's clear that this one should be left as-is, so that's what I'll do. Now, to work on the issue I was investigating when I discovered this...
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