Author Topic: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)  (Read 853 times)

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Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2020, 07:29:57 PM »
I'm entering too. My levels are:

- Quirky 22 "The Far Side"
- Zany 6 "Compression Method 1"
- Lunatic 22 "Hello John! Got A New Lemming?"



Also, one more change to the original post, as I realised "all or nothing" rule for level selection was pointless:

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To begin, each contestant may pick up to three levels from Lemmings Redux. This is all or nothing; you must either pick all three or not make any selections.

I'll give a bit more time for input on the lemming count thing before making any edit for that, but I am very much leaning towards the "50 lemmings on every level" idea.

That aside, I've also added a list of selected levels so far to the first post, for easy reference.

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2020, 10:23:47 PM »
Just to clarify a few points:

1) Do Cloners count towards the amount saved?
2) You start with 25 of each skill at the start, and carry over what you don't use to the next level each time?
3) We don't get to choose the order in which the levels are played?

I'd suggest making the save requirement for each level 1 lemming.

Also, now that I understand that it'll be 25 skills for 20 levels, any chance of bumping it up to the full 10 skills that NeoLemmix allows on the panel?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2020, 11:46:36 PM by WillLem »

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2020, 11:26:24 PM »
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1) Do Cloners count towards the amount saved?
2) You start with 25 of each skill at the start, and carry over what you don't use to the next level each time?
3) We don't get to choose the order in which the levels are played?

1. Yes, they do.

2. Your entire set of replays for the 20 levels, combined, must not use more than 25 of each skill.

3. I'll most likely distribute the selected levels in a pack where they're ordered alphabetically, but there's no reason why the order matters in the first place. What matters is the total amount of lemmings you save - this is specifically not an L2-like case where you carry over lemmings from one level to the next. You can pick and choose which levels you actually complete, if you are not able to complete all of them with the skills you have.

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I'd also suggest making the save requirement for each level 1 lemming.

It is perfectly acceptable to have some levels where you do not save any lemmings, although a 1 lemming requirement might be good for technical reasons re: replay autosaving.



It has also come up on Discord; should entrants be allowed to pick the same skill twice (for the 2nd constructive / destructive selection and/or the free-choice selection), and get 50 of that one skill at the cost of sacrificing an extra skill type?

My initial reaction to this is "no, it must be 8 different skills with 25 uses each". However, I'm open to this. The questions that then arise are:
- Should there be a further penalty to the quantity? (eg. perhaps if you pick the same skill twice, you get 40 (10 less) instead of 50; or if you pick it three times, you get 55 (20 less) instead of 75?)
- If allowed, what do we do about Cloners? This could lead to the very situation that I wanted to avoid by making Cloners compulsory - that it becomes almost obligatory to pick Cloners to become competitive. One option could be that for a 2nd pick of Cloners, your lemming count is penalized by the number of extra Cloners you have. Another could be simply that Cloners are an exception to "you may pick the same skill twice in lieu of an extra skill type".
- For the constructive / destructive skills, which already allow you to pick a second one in one of those categories, would this extend to "you can pick the same skill three times", or would it be limited to double?

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2020, 11:52:33 PM »
It is perfectly acceptable to have some levels where you do not save any lemmings, although a 1 lemming requirement might be good for technical reasons re: replay autosaving.

That's what I was thinking tbh, more for the technical reasons (i.e. you could just nuke a level after saving 1 and still pass it for replay autosave and moving on to the next level).

- Should there be a further penalty to the quantity? (eg. perhaps if you pick the same skill twice, you get 40 (10 less) instead of 50; or if you pick it three times, you get 55 (20 less) instead of 75?)

No, I think the skillset limit is tight enough at 25 of 8. If a person wishes to tactically choose 2 or even 3 of the same at the expense of another skill type, they should be allowed to do so.

- If allowed, what do we do about Cloners? This could lead to the very situation that I wanted to avoid by making Cloners compulsory - that it becomes almost obligatory to pick Cloners to become competitive

Not necessarily. If a person fancies their chances at saving all 50 lems on an extra level (as opposed to spamming an extra 25 Cloners), then - again - that should be competitor's choice.

EDIT: In fact, that's probably another point in favour of 50 lems per level.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2020, 06:28:39 PM »
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Not necessarily. If a person fancies their chances at saving all 50 lems on an extra level (as opposed to spamming an extra 25 Cloners), then - again - that should be competitor's choice.

EDIT: In fact, that's probably another point in favour of 50 lems per level.

I don't see how these two points are connected.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2020, 06:57:21 PM »
Change to the first post:

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In any case where the version of NeoLemmix used makes a difference to the result, V12.10.1 V12.10.2 will be considered the "authoritative" version for this contest.

In general - assume that similar changes will be made for any case where new stable versions are released before the playing phase starts.

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2020, 09:07:06 PM »
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Not necessarily. If a person fancies their chances at saving all 50 lems on an extra level (as opposed to spamming an extra 25 Cloners), then - again - that should be competitor's choice.

EDIT: In fact, that's probably another point in favour of 50 lems per level.

I don't see how these two points are connected.

Because if there are 50 lems per level, it's in a competitor's best interests to choose whichever skill will be potentially most useful for 100%-ing an entire extra level, rather than simply spamming an extra 25 Cloners. It's still a risk, but the potential payoff is greater.

It's basically... "do I choose to have an extra 25 Cloners, which guarantees those extra 25 lems, or do I go for a different, more useful skill, which may result in an extra 50 lems?"

The reason it's in favour of 50 lems is because this potential double-payoff will hopefully encourage competitors not to choose an extra 25 Cloners, even if allowed to do so.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #22 on: December 24, 2020, 04:01:14 AM »
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Because if there are 50 lems per level, it's in a competitor's best interests to choose whichever skill will be potentially most useful for 100%-ing an entire extra level, rather than simply spamming an extra 25 Cloners. It's still a risk, but the potential payoff is greater.

100%ing isn't necessary. If they can save 26 while going for the extra Cloners, they are better off than someone who can save 100% but did not pick the cloners.

Online WillLem

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #23 on: December 24, 2020, 04:32:34 AM »
100%ing isn't necessary. If they can save 26 while going for the extra Cloners, they are better off than someone who can save 100% but did not pick the cloners.

Sure, for that one level. But then not for any of the levels after that. And meanwhile, the person who picked (for example) extra Builders has more of a much more useful skill for potentially making more out of those levels.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #24 on: January 06, 2021, 05:37:21 PM »
Okay - only one user's really given any input on this, and I do feel quite strongly that it's going to complicate things. To keep it as simple as possible - this will just be an outright "you cannot pick the same skill twice". So for this time at least, that will be the rule - each skill in your set must be unique. Likewise, it was proposed on Discord that it should be 10 skills, but for this time we'll see how it goes with 8 - we can try 10 (or, if 8 turns out too lenient, perhaps 6 or 7) next time.

Unless there's some obvious hole that needs patching, I'm going to consider the rules final at this point.

I did make one other last-minute change: Rather than explicitly specifying NL "V12.10.2" or another exact version, the version is now specified to be "the newest stable V12.10.X build at the time the playing phase starts". In practice you can likely use any V12.10.X build, as it isn't expected for replays to break between different V12.10.X builds, but it's good to have an exact specified version just in case.

The other thing is, as I've said I may do if there was an initial rush of entries followed by no further subsequent ones, I have pulled back the entry deadline a bit. Entries will now close on the 14th of January (instead of the 21st) - this still leaves a week for more people to enter if they wish.

Offline Silken Healer

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2021, 03:53:34 AM »
I'd like to enter. My Choices are: Gentle 6, 11 and 12

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #26 on: January 13, 2021, 05:29:53 PM »
Just a reminder that there's about a day left to enter, if anyone else still wants to.

Offline Pooty

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #27 on: January 13, 2021, 10:49:45 PM »
I'll enter.

Zany 23 "ONWARD AND UPWARD"
Zany 25 "Have a nice day!"
Lunatic 7 "Down, along, up, in that order"
SEGA Master System version
100% on 110/120 levels (92%). Other levels [Lemmings lost]:
Fun 03 [3], 06 [2], 18 [5]   
Taxing 19 [5], 27 [1], 28 [3]
Tricky 15 [5], 17 [2]
Mayhem 19 [7], 26 [10]

Offline Proxima

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #28 on: January 14, 2021, 01:26:51 AM »
I've decided to drop "Going Their Separate Ways" from my selection and keep just the other two.

Offline namida

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Re: [NeoLemmix] Save-'em-up Contest #1 (Lemmings Redux)
« Reply #29 on: January 14, 2021, 06:05:52 PM »
Entries are now closed.

As exactly 20 levels are in the final selection list, there'll be no random element to it - so you'll know exactly which levels you're dealing with. The levels are as follows - keep in mind that you'll have your custom skillset, and every level will be modified to have 50 lemmings (but will otherwise remain as-is).

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- Gentle 6 "A Task For Bombers"
- Gentle 11 "Keep Your Hair On Mr Lemming"
- Gentle 12 "A Block From Home"
- Gentle 13 "Let's Go To The Moon"
- Gentle 19 "Where do you see Lemmings?"
- Quirky 1 "PoP YoR ToP"
- Quirky 22 "The Far Side"
- Quirky 29 "Tension Sheet, Good Idea"
- Quirky 31 "Cascade"
- Quirky 32 "And Then There Were Four..."
- Zany 6 "Compression Method 1"
- Zany 11 "LemMing ToMato KetchUp fAcilitY"
- Zany 17 "Lemming Lament"
- Zany 23 "ONWARD AND UPWARD"
- Zany 25 "Have a nice day!"
- Lunatic 7 "Down, along, up, in that order"
- Lunatic 9 "Evacuating a coal mine"
- Lunatic 12 "Water processing plant"
- Lunatic 16 "Sega FOUR"
- Lunatic 22 "Hello John! Got A New Lemming?"

You may now begin selecting your skillset. Please send it to me via PM. Remember that you get 25 of each skill across all 20 levels combined (not per-level), and your goal is to save as many total lemmings as possible - there's no difference between (for example) saving 50 lemmings on one level and none on any other levels, vs saving two or three on each level for a total of 50 across the whole set.

As a reminder, your skillset must consist of:
1) One out of: Jumper, Shimmier
2) One out of: Climber, Swimmer, Floater, Glider, Disarmer
3) One out of: Bomber, Stoner
4) One out of: Platformer, Builder, Stacker
5) One out of: Basher, Fencer, Miner, Digger
6) A second skill from either #4 or #5
7) Cloner

The 8th skill can be anything you like (including Walker or Blocker).

Please get skillsets through to me within the next week, or let me know if you need more time. If I haven't heard from any entrants by one week from when entries closed (ie: midday UTC on the 21st), I will assume they have dropped out.