Author Topic: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]  (Read 3040 times)

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Online IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #30 on: December 05, 2019, 04:00:27 pm »
Had a bit of time today, so I added the first 10 levels of the Professional rank to the replay collection. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #31 on: December 09, 2019, 09:14:10 am »
Thanks for the replays, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: You've found two backroutes; a major one on "Holy diver" (Professional 07), and a minor one on "Blocking all over the world" (Professional 08). The latter was originally part of Pit Lems, so that pack will also be affected. It has already had several backroute fixes, so I thought it would be proof by now... but apparently not.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I've already fixed the levels, but I haven't updated the pack yet; as announced before, I want to do that together with re-adding all the talismans. Hopefully I can get that done this week.
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #32 on: December 16, 2019, 04:56:40 pm »
10 more levels solved today. Attached my replays. :)

This batch seemed easier than quite a bit of the rank 2 stuff to be honest.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #33 on: December 16, 2019, 10:49:23 pm »
Thanks for playing, IchoTolot! :thumbsup: This will give me the opportunity to fix even more stuff in one swoop in the next update.

It seems like a couple of levels in the Professional rank had the Millas sprites without me intending them to have them. For "Auld Lem Syne", they were quite fitting, given that they also have red hair! ;) But I'm going to reset them to the default sprites, now that I know.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I'm trying to upload the next fix as soon as possible; Lemmings Open Air took precedent during the last couple of days, because with that pack still being in development, any backroutes people find there are usually much more glaring, and therefore in more urgent need of fixing. ;)

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This batch seemed easier than quite a bit of the rank 2 stuff to be honest.

Yes, this is consistent with the feedback I've received from Colorful Arty and others. The main reason is that there are more open-ended levels here, especially the landscape-y ones. The few specific puzzles with a tight skill restriction, such as "Atte katte nuva", seem to enforce their solution pretty reliably, though. ;)

Also, the tricks taught on the first two ranks are supposed to prepare you for the entire pack. The third rank then requires some of these tricks without prior announcement... (like the one you used on "Block around the clock") - but of course not all of them, right out of the gate. ;)

As such, the sum of the difficulty in the Amateur rank definitely exceeds that of the Professional rank, because there's simply more to learn on Amateur, whereas Professional is the first rank where you're actually "free to play (all by yourself". :)
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2019, 09:52:22 pm »
And as my preemptive christmas gift, here is the rest of the rank. ;P

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As such, the sum of the difficulty in the Amateur rank definitely exceeds that of the Professional rank, because there's simply more to learn on Amateur, whereas Professional is the first rank where you're actually "free to play (all by yourself".

Well, if the tutorial is harder than the levels that rely on the lessons learned after that, then those levels fail as tutorials. :8():

The ammount to learn should not matter for the rank if the lessons are easy enough. Some of the lessons are (even with the pretext) simply too hard to count as tutorials.

They are good levels, don't get me wrong, but fail as tutorials.


After the last bit of Professional was quite a cakewalk, levels like 3 26, 3 27 take the difficulty up by several ranks, while 3 40 is very easy again. So even with liking a lot of the levels here I must say the packs difficulty curve can be best described with this:



Maybe the next level is easy or hard the rank is not really a reliable hint at this here. ;P

For the level types:

I must say I like the non-landscape levels a lot more than the landscapes as often the puzzle falls a bit shorter there (that london bridge for example is waaaay too long than it has any right to be :evil:).
Often the style overshadows the solution and takes away from it and I play lemmings for the puzzles first and the style comes second. For me the style should add to the solution and try to not take away from it.

Again I like quite a lot of the solutions, but those landscape levels are currently the weak link here.

In terms of song references, I get about 50% of them. :P

Also those flagpoles..... I assumed them as solid first, then discovered they are non-solid and then found one in a level that was solid! :evil:   That pole should get an animation of some sort to make it clearer as an object or maybe move the flagpoles out of the active playing zone where they don't disrupt anything.

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #35 on: December 19, 2019, 09:46:54 am »
Thanks, IchoTolot! :) I'll have a look at them this weekend, and then I'm simply going to fix the entire rank, along with the talismans.

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Well, if the tutorial is harder than the levels that rely on the lessons learned after that, then those levels fail as tutorials. :8():

The ammount to learn should not matter for the rank if the lessons are easy enough. Some of the lessons are (even with the pretext) simply too hard to count as tutorials.

They are good levels, don't get me wrong, but fail as tutorials.

I think the problem is more rooted within the fact that, once a level gets more complicated, specific tricks that are part of the intended solution become more and more difficult to enforce. ;) For example, "Block around the clock" from the Professional rank is conceptually much more difficult than the levels that teach the tricks you're required to know for this level (namely, "Lemmy I hardly knew ya" and "Wonderwall"). However, due to the fact that all these elements are combined in a single level, more degrees of freedom are added to the solution, so that there is no longer jus one specific sequence of actions that works. I've already tried to enforce the intended solution on this level through the use of pickup skills, as well as toying around with on-terrain fire traps that ended up getting removed again, because they weren't fulfilling their purpose.

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After the last bit of Professional was quite a cakewalk, levels like 3 26, 3 27 take the difficulty up by several ranks, while 3 40 is very easy again. So even with liking a lot of the levels here I must say the packs difficulty curve can be best described with this

Interesting to hear! Neither "Budapest" nor "Moskau, Moskau" looked particularly difficult to me when I watched Arty play them. :)

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I must say I like the non-landscape levels a lot more than the landscapes as often the puzzle falls a bit shorter there (that london bridge for example is waaaay too long than it has any right to be :evil:).
Often the style overshadows the solution and takes away from it and I play lemmings for the puzzles first and the style comes second. For me the style should add to the solution and try to not take away from it.

This is the reason I'm creating Lemmings Open Air! ;) It will be pretty much only abstract level shapes, which are free to be shaped based entirely on the solution, i.e. "top-down" (starting with the solution, then creating the terrain around it).

Lemmings World Tour, in contrast, was designed "bottom-up", for the most part - i.e. starting with the terrain, then coming up with a solution that fits. Regarding the landscape levels as a group, I think I can at least say that each of the solutions for them is rather unique; there is not much repetition of tricks or similar going on between the various landscape levels. But they usually have a little more leeway than smaller, abstract levels where the skills are exactly accounted for.

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In terms of song references, I get about 50% of them.

That's quite a good share! ;) It's set up in a way that everyone should be able to get some of the references; nobody will get all or even just the majority of them.

You might start recognising more and more titles the higher you get, though, because the higher levels are based on more and more famous songs. On the lower ranks, meanwhile, I snuck in the occasional obscure reference that probably just I will understand, given the small size of our community. I was actually surprised anyone got the reference "Na zdorovje Lem" from Pit Lems (someone in the comments section of nin10doadict's LP). But that level is also included in LWT as part of the Encore rank.

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Also those flagpoles..... I assumed them as solid first, then discovered they are non-solid and then found one in a level that was solid! :evil:   That pole should get an animation of some sort to make it clearer as an object or maybe move the flagpoles out of the active playing zone where they don't disrupt anything.

The default one used is the L2 Circus flagpole (the white one), which is always an object. As such, whenever something else is used to hoist the flag, it's always solid, and usually so for a reason. ;) Hence, in those cases, the flagpoles can't actually be moved out of the playing area, because they are part of the solution.

I agree that a secondary animation for L2 Circus flagpole would be helpful in general, but I don't see how that's possible with the pole itself? The checkered flags from L2 Circus that are supposed to be attached to them are of course moving.

Thus, a part of me fears namida will at some point just merge the flag and the pole into one object, thereby breaking the flag animation on any LWT level that uses the L2 pole. :(

But fortunately for me, I think this is not possible - because the flag pole by itself must continue to exist in order to vary the length of the L2 Circus flags, as well. Simply using the "height" parameter for objects, like for water areas, won't work, because in that case, the entire object would just repeat itself, thereby putting a second waving flag under the first one.

My suggestion for a secondary animation for the L2 flag pole would therefore be a shimmer / reflection of some sort? This could go up or down the flag pole, making it look as if it were reflecting the sunlight.
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2019, 01:27:55 pm »
The updated version is attached to the starting post. The last version had 20 downloads (still visible from the strato_generalmd tileset having the same number of downloads), so I take it that comparatively many people are playing this pack at the moment. Thank you all for your continued interest in the pack! :thumbsup:

Professional 07, 08, and 20 have had backroutes fixed, a couple other levels have had their sprites and/or backgrounds adapted. The latter changes are exclusive to the New-Formats version, because they were basically just about restoring these levels to the state they were in in the Old-Formats version. Meaning, the Old-Formats version already has these levels with the desired sprites and backgrounds. For example, the stars on the American flag on the level "Bay of Pigs" weren't displaying correctly in New Formats, this has been fixed, as well.

Also, all the talismans that are present in the Old-Formats version (10 in total) are now also included in New Formats! :D
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Online IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #37 on: January 02, 2020, 10:19:43 pm »
Solved the first 10 Diva levels. Still need to resolve the fixed ones as over the holidays I completely forgot the update. :P

Online IchoTolot

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #38 on: January 04, 2020, 04:15:19 pm »
Alright, resolved the fixed levels and also solved further ahead to Diva 20. At the current state, the Barcelona level was the hardest for me so far. :)

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #39 on: January 14, 2020, 10:32:27 am »
Thanks again, IchoTolot! :)

"Holy Diver" and "Blocking all over the world" still seem too easy. But I currently don't have any idea on how to fix that; specifically, on "Blocking all over the world", you created another shortcut with Bombers, and since Bombers don't care about one-way arrows in any direction, those are pretty much impossible to prevent. This is also true regarding your solution to "Don't cry for me, Argentina" on the Diva rank. Steel stops Bombers completely, one-way arrows don't stop them at all. So basically, the only way to prevent Bomber shortcuts is making the Bombers pickup skills. But even that isn't always feasible.

The majority of your solutions to the first 20 Diva levels, however, are either intended (levels 01, 05, 08, 10, 12, 16, 17, 18), or valid alternative solutions (02, 03, 06, 07, 09, 13, 14, 15, 19).

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Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Strato Incendus

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Re: Lemmings World Tour Remastered [New-Formats Version]
« Reply #40 on: January 19, 2020, 10:14:19 pm »
I uploaded a merely cosmetic update: My dark-skinned Lemmings are finally back! :thumbsup: They are now a recolouring scheme that is part of my strato_generalmd tileset.

This is what they look like (example level, not part of any pack):



Three levels have had their sprites changed to these lemmings: "Waka Waka" (Professional rank), "Diggas in Paris" (Diva rank), and "Africa" (Legend rank). I've also changed the sprites on "Barcelona" back to default, because they were accidentally still the Millas sprites.

You will have to re-download both strato_generalmd and the pack to make these changes visible. If you only re-download the styles, your versions of the levels will still point to the default-coloured sprites. If you only re-download the pack, I guess the sprites will fall back to default on those levels that now have strato_generalmd selected as their theme.

The colour of the one-way arrows on "Waka Waka" has also changed as a consequence, plus, the blue background from the Shadow tileset is actually not a background, but merely a picked colour. Hence, "Diggas in Paris", with the theme no longer being L2 Shadow, now has a slightly darker background (egypt sky).

The version of strato_generalmd in the development thread for Lemmings Open Air has also been renewed, so you can use either of these downloads; both will work. ;)

Finally, the zombies have had their skin set to completely white (colour code #ffffff), to make them more distinguishable from the standard zombie skin. This is also based on feedback I got from the first time when I shared these sprites.

Originally, the zombies were supposed to represent mummies, as these sprites were intended to go with the Egyptian style. Hence, their skin is brighter. But of course, they could also be evil colonial landowners... :evil: Interpret that as you wish; just know that this change was made mainly for game-mechanical reasons. ;)

I tried it out on one of the levels I'm developing for the L3D-inspired pack Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll - and since Zombie Blockers are only labelled as "Blocker" when hovering your mouse over them, it was really close to impossible to tell normal dark-skinned lemmings apart from zombies. Now, there should no longer be any confusion between the two.
« Last Edit: January 19, 2020, 10:21:23 pm by Strato Incendus »
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour (New & Old Formats), my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems (Old Formats), a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems (Old Formats), a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for (very old) NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels