Author Topic: Anticipated Shimmier behaviour  (Read 814 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 541
  • One-man Lemmings band
    • View Profile
Anticipated Shimmier behaviour
« on: September 26, 2018, 10:38:50 am »
Even though it's probably still going to take some time until the Shimmier is test-ready, I already have some ideas in mind, and would therefore like to create the terrain shapes ahead of time in order not to forget them :) .

But for that purpose, I need to know from Nepster what the intended behaviour of the Shimmier is going to look like.

1) As far as I remember, the Shimmier starts with a straight vertical jump. What's the minimum and maximum height the Shimmier will be able to jump this way?
2) Are direct transitions from Climber to Shimmier going to be possible, like in Lemmings 2 (I doubt this, because it would require the Climber to do the "hanging" animation at the ceiling)?
3) Are there any ways to stop a Shimmier to make him fall off the ceiling earlier, rather than waiting for him to hit a wall (e.g. with a walker)?
4) When I bomb or stone a Climber, there is the oh-no animation while he is stuck to the wall. Can we expect the same for Shimmiers, or is a Shimmier turned Bomber / Stoner going to fall off the ceiling?
5) Will it be possible to (ab-)use the Shimmier merely for height gain, for example to get above an updraft and then assign a Glider?
6) If it is indeed possible to assign skills during the initial jump, will a Shimmier turned Bomber or Stoner during the vertical jump explode / stone in mid-air without the oh-no part?
7) Can Shimmiers only go along straight edges, like Climbers, or are they going to be able to compensate for a couple of pixels worth of slopes, like Bashers can? I remember that in Lemmings 2, they could shimmy along the bottom of the Outdoor grass pieces, which is not at all a straight edge.
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline Nepster

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 1827
    • View Profile
Re: Anticipated Shimmier behaviour
« Reply #1 on: September 26, 2018, 12:31:05 pm »
General remark: Everything here are my plans, nothing is fixed! So until I release a stable version with the shimmier, I will take the liberty to change any parts of the shimmier mechanics, regardless of existing levels. Even an experimental release with the shimmier does not count as a stable one, so don't rely on the finer mechanics when I first release the experimental version!

Having said that, let's answer your questions:
1) Raymanni's sprites are 8 pixels high, so the minimal height will be 9 pixels. This allows starting shimmiers inside basher tunnels. The maximum is certainly larger than 16 pixels, most likely around 18 pixels. But this might change depending on how the "reacher" animation will look best. I might even go so far as to enlarge the maximum to 25 pixels or so, if I feel that shimmiers are not nearly useful enough during playtesting. That is really something that cannot determined in advance, but has to be tested.
2) I really want to make this possible, most likely by preassigning the shimmier skill to the climber a few frames before reaching the ceiling, so that the transition occurs when the climber actually reaches it. However there are some UX issues in making this possibility discoverable to new players, so no guarantees.
3) Yes, a walker will stop the shimmier, but not turn him. Although the general guideline here is, that I want to treat all lemmings that have no hard ground under their feets the same way, I feel that making an exception here allows for some interesting possibilities.
4) For the guideline given in 3), they will do neither, but instead instantly explode. But given that their feet are 8 pixels below the ceiling, they will make only a slight dent in the ceiling.
5) This will most likely be a side-effect of how the reaching mechanics will be implemented. I don't have any design goals for this, so let's not even try to describe the details yet. But as the glider will only unfold after falling several pixels, I very much doubt that the reaching fall height alone will suffice to do that, so don't expect to be able to start a glider just by assigning a shimmier at an updraft.
6) Same guideling from 3): Yes, you may instantly bomb reachers.
7) No, they can go up and down slopes. How steep these slopes may be is not yet fixed, but here are some guidelines:
- Shimmiers will be able to go up and down miner tunnels.
- Shimmiers will not be able to traverse two vertical pixel (up or down) while going only one pixel forward.
- IchoTolot suggested that shimmiers can go up and down 45° slopes. I have not yet decided whether to allow that.

But anything of this might change, if it turns out that this shimmier is too overpowered and will only create tons of backroutes. I would rather spend several months playtesting and tuning the shimmier, instead of having an either overpowered or mostly useless skill.

Offline IchoTolot

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 1931
    • View Profile
Re: Anticipated Shimmier behaviour
« Reply #2 on: September 26, 2018, 01:54:09 pm »
Quote
- IchoTolot suggested that shimmiers can go up and down 45° slopes. I have not yet decided whether to allow that.

My exact suggestion was:

Allow shimmiers to gain/loose 1 pixel of height each horizontal pixel of movement --> 45 degree slopes are the exact maximum.

This would be a very easy rule for shimmiers and you would be easily able to determine beforehand if a ceiling is shimmier friendly. As soon as you see a >= 2 pixel height jump on a ceiling a shimmier will stop there, while all other 1 pixel height differences are fine.

Offline Strato Incendus

  • He who usually only makes it up to rank two
  • Posts: 541
  • One-man Lemmings band
    • View Profile
Re: Anticipated Shimmier behaviour
« Reply #3 on: September 26, 2018, 02:06:41 pm »
Thanks a lot, Nepster! Sure, I don't expect anything to be set in stone at this point!

The most important takeaway for me here is that I significantly overestimated the vertical reach of the Shimmier, and that I should really think of it more as "reaching" than jumping (after all, the jumper needs to have enough own dedicated purposes once it gets introduced later on, right? :D ).

I'll set my ceilings where I want Shimmiers to be used to about 16 pixels height at this point, meaning two Lemming heights :) . As long as you're more likely to increase than decrease this height (to 18 or 25 pixels, as you proposed), I should be on the safe side with this.

Cancelling Shimmiers with Walkers seems intuitive; I didn't expect them to turn around at this point anyway, because that doesn't happen either when cancelling other skills with the Walker.

Being able to shimmy along slopes, including Miner and Basher tunnels, is good news, though! The Shimmier pays double duty in this regard, chiming in as a surrogate Rock Climber!

I guess Fencer tunnels won't work then, because they are too thin? I mean, they are so small that Bashers can continue all the way through them...

If they are eventually going to be able to start shimmying from a climbing position, that would just be the icing on the cake!

I fully support Icho's suggestions regarding 45 degree slopes! :thumbsup:
Ghost Lemmings - help us test a possible new NeoLemmix skill!
My packs so far:
Lemmings World Tour, my music-themed flagship pack, 320 levels - Let's Played by Colorful Arty
Paralems, a more flavour-driven one, 150 levels
Pit Lems, a more puzzly one, 100 levels - Let's Played by nin10doadict
Lemmicks, a pack for NeoLemmix 1.43 full of gimmicks, 170 levels

Offline GigaLem

  • Discord Server Owner
  • Posts: 1237
  • Graphic Set Enthusiast
    • View Profile
Re: Anticipated Shimmier behaviour
« Reply #4 on: September 26, 2018, 10:14:07 pm »
Would it be possible for a say a shimmier that's also a climber to climb up step slopes?
as in the shimmier reaches a step slope and it transitions to a climber (like in lemmings 2) but if they're not a climber, they'll just fall

Offline Nepster

  • Moderator
  • Posts: 1827
    • View Profile
Re: Anticipated Shimmier behaviour
« Reply #5 on: September 27, 2018, 07:07:30 am »
The most important takeaway for me here is that I significantly overestimated the vertical reach of the Shimmier, and that I should really think of it more as "reaching" than jumping (after all, the jumper needs to have enough own dedicated purposes once it gets introduced later on, right? :D ).
Exactly! :D

I guess Fencer tunnels won't work then, because they are too thin? I mean, they are so small that Bashers can continue all the way through them...
Totally correct.

Would it be possible for a say a shimmier that's also a climber to climb up step slopes?
as in the shimmier reaches a step slope and it transitions to a climber (like in lemmings 2) but if they're not a climber, they'll just fall
We discussed this in another thread already (which I am currently too lazy to search for), and this is not going to happen. First of all: It is neither clear to me that this will allow for a lot of new puzzles that cannot be done otherwise, nor do I know which of "fall down" or "climb step" will be more useful overall in that respect. Moreover this would be very hard to code without creating lots of bugs and the animation would be horrible (due to having the lemming smoothly turning around). So unless I (or lots of other people) will be totally dissatisfied (upon actual playtesting!) with the shimmier possibilities as they are planned now, don't expect this.