Author Topic: [Feedback/Suggestions] Some general feedback from a new user  (Read 1015 times)

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Offline IchoTolot

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[Feedback/Suggestions] Some general feedback from a new user
« on: March 19, 2018, 07:29:22 pm »
So a new user commented under my editor tutorial video and I've decided to give a little summary based on his feedback:

Issue: "The biggest problem i have is, that if i am unfamiliar with a style, i do not know, what count as Metal, what is a destructive terrain, what are only background graphics."
My answer: "For this go to "Options" and check in "Display piece names" this will display all object and tile names in the lower selection bar........Also under "View" you can turn on clear physics mode which toggles to a more detailied mode which clearly shows steel and terrain in your level...."
Response: "So Pieces that have the name Steel are the only one, that are indestructiveable? That is good to know. I did not think about the True-Physics mode either."

So what I can get from this is that we can get a big issue for new users out of the way very easily: Turn on "Display piece names" as standard. Experienced users who don't want this can turn it off no problem.

Also maybe all the view options could be a bit more obvious/more into the face to new players -- maybe a button bar to switch all the different options on/off on the fly or making the top options bar a bit bigger? ???


Issue: "Also I dislike the scrolling in the lower bar, which make it difficult to get what you are actually looking for."
My answer: "I also think that a simple scroll bar which you can drag is better than right/left clicking the arrows, but we will see if I can pursuade people for this way in the future"

Oh well, looks like the thing I was suggesting for a time now is not just a tick of mine :8():     Scrollbar >> arrows with left/right clicking
It's simply faster and more intuitive! Just drag the thing! Maybe both can be supported.

Issue: "Actually i think, that the Editor should have much more categories which made it clearer. So an own category for Decoratives, Traps, Destructive Terrain, Indestructive Terrains etc.. Maybe even with specific subcategories. Also i think that you would find the desired piece much faster with this."

Ok here I was a bit conflicted: Most object categories already have problems getting the lower bar full and splitting them up even more is totally overkill and overcomplicates the bar.
Maybe instead of extra categories, options for filters could be a solution: Only displaying checked in things. Like I checked in steel for terrain and it only shows me steel pieces, I checked in traps and hatches for objects and I get traps and hatches.

Issue: "Is there also any indicator about the Splat Height in the Editor? Or do you have to go into the Game every time for the Splat Ruler?"
My answer: "Not currently. The splat height is 64 pixels though and many pices are 16 pixels high --> I am pushing for displaying the piece sizes when selecting them as this could be helpful with that."

At least I found no way of displaying this -- if I missed it you can blame me ;P
Anyway having the splat ruler as a display option could be sweet and make the progress faster ;)

Issue: "...you should be able to display the objects in more rows... i do not think, that only one row is necessary if you work on higher resolutions. If you are using a 4K resolution, you maybe could even display all objects at once and would have still more than enough space for the level editing area."

I have no idea how this goes on the implementing side, but I think having an option for more piece rows can be an interesting option for big monitors. Still don't know if this is possible.


So that was a bit of newbie feedback and I think we can get a few things to improve out of this. :)

Offline Nepster

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Re: [Feedback/Suggestions] Some general feedback from a new user
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2018, 08:10:27 pm »
Thanks a lot for the feedback. However I have one big issue with all of that: While you report valid issues with the editor, you also report solely your opinions on how to fix them, not whether they would actually help the new user or whether they would have come up with some alternative (and perhaps better) solution themselves. To all the reported issues, my first answer would have been: "If you could wish for anything, how would you have solved this problem or how would you have expected the editor to work?"

Issue: "The biggest problem i have is, that if i am unfamiliar with a style, i do not know, what count as Metal, what is a destructive terrain, what are only background graphics."

Displaying the piece names by default is an easy change.
Regarding the better visibility of the options: I don't want to display them permanently, because users will change them once at the beginning and then never ever use these options again. So they should not clutter the top menu bar.

Issue: "Also I dislike the scrolling in the lower bar, which make it difficult to get what you are actually looking for."
As I explained already several times in the past, I don't see any way to add a scroll bar to a circling piece selection. Did you show the new user the hotkeys for (slow and fast) circling through the piece selection?

Oh well, looks like the thing I was suggesting for a time now is not just a tick of mine :8():
That's your wishful thinking here: Where did the new user state, that they prefer a scroll bar?

Issue: "Actually i think, that the Editor should have much more categories which made it clearer. So an own category for Decoratives, Traps, Destructive Terrain, Indestructive Terrains etc.. Maybe even with specific subcategories. Also i think that you would find the desired piece much faster with this."
I have a totally different suggestion, with which I already nagged Simon regarding Lix: The addition of categories "All Traps", "All Hatches", ... that display the objects of that type that occur in any of the graphic styles. That way the user would directly have a wide selection of possible objects with the desired function.

Issue: "Is there also any indicator about the Splat Height in the Editor? Or do you have to go into the Game every time for the Splat Ruler?"
My answer: "Not currently. The splat height is 64 pixels though and many pices are 16 pixels high --> I am pushing for displaying the piece sizes when selecting them as this could be helpful with that."
Sorry, but I can think of two better answers than yours:
1) To push for a Splat Height Ruler as in the NeoLemmix player. That would directly solve the user's issue.
2) As you can move pieces with Ctrl+Up/Down by 8 pixels, use this to move a duplicated piece by 64 pixels, which gives you the splat height.
Regarding these two possible alternative answers, "splat height ruler" is not really any reason to implement displaying piece sizes. I am sorry, but I think you are just trying to mobilize some others to support the features you (but rather few others) love to see.

Issue: "...you should be able to display the objects in more rows... i do not think, that only one row is necessary if you work on higher resolutions. If you are using a 4K resolution, you maybe could even display all objects at once and would have still more than enough space for the level editing area."

Proxima already suggested that and I can certainly see the advantage of the suggestion. But it's very non-trivial to implement, so by the time we get to the point where spending my coding time on this is worthwhile, we will already have an almost perfect editor. So: Sorry, but this isn't going to happen for a long time.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [Feedback/Suggestions] Some general feedback from a new user
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2018, 08:37:49 pm »
Of course I report my opinions on how to fix them, I got the report, I answered to him therefore I bring in my solution suggestions in there right from the get go instead of making another post. I had to reply under the video and I am using that material.

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Issue: "Also I dislike the scrolling in the lower bar, which make it difficult to get what you are actually looking for."

As I explained already several times in the past, I don't see any way to add a scroll bar to a circling piece selection. Did you show the new user the hotkeys for (slow and fast) circling through the piece selection?

I told him about the faster cycling way (I mentioned the right-click) and I am not the only one criticising the current arrow implementation and I am convinced that the scroll bar implementation will have a better resonance from users than the arrows even if you don't see it.

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That's your wishful thinking here: Where did the new user state, that they prefer a scroll bar?

As I said of course I bring in my solutions as suggestions. He only critized the arrows but still: "I am convinced that the scroll bar implementation will have a better resonance from users than the arrows even if you don't see it."

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I have a totally different suggestion, with which I already nagged Simon regarding Lix: The addition of categories "All Traps", "All Hatches", ... that display the objects of that type that occur in any of the graphic styles. That way the user would directly have a wide selection of possible objects with the desired function.

I think that would be way to much clutter. Having for example 100 hatches (and the numbers only increase) next to each other woud be chaos and it will be difficult to pick the right one as a bunch of them look similar. I think having only 1 tileset appearing is a huge advantage and most people use only 1 tileset in a level at least the majority of the time.

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Sorry, but I can think of two better answers than yours:
1) To push for a Splat Height Ruler as in the NeoLemmix player. That would directly solve the user's issue.

That's exactly what I said a lines below ;)

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Anyway having the splat ruler as a display option could be sweet and make the progress faster ;)

Still I think the piece sizes help!

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I am sorry, but I think you are just trying to mobilize some others to support the features you (but rather few others) love to see.

Of course I'm doing that! Why is that a surprise? Still in that case the number of users love to see this is huge instead of "a few": https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=3437.0
We've got Simon, Proxima, Arty, Flopsy and Giga in there, I would call that a lot of people for this forum!
I think they help a lot, a lot of people see that as well, therefore I keep on pushing - that shouldn't be a surprize.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [Feedback/Suggestions] Some general feedback from a new user
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2018, 08:40:18 pm »
Regarding the arrow issue:

<Raymanni>I also suggested the ability to scroll the piece selection with a mouse wheel
<Raymanni>I find the arrow buttons a bit clunky to use

This could also be a better way.

Offline namida

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Re: [Feedback/Suggestions] Some general feedback from a new user
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2018, 09:38:34 pm »
I would agree regarding displaying the piece sizes somehow. It doesn't necesserially need to be intrusive - maybe when you mouseover a piece in the selection, a popup tooltip displays the size (and perhaps other useful info, such as for objects the type of object, or for terrain whether it's steel or not). Whether or not this gets added, I still definitely see benefit in a fall distance ruler - and perhaps a few other (using Cheapo terminology) sketches here too, as a dedicated editor feature rather than the current workaround (if still in place) of having an nx_sketches graphic set. NeoLemmix itself would presumably safely ignore the information on them, and only the editor would actually pay attention to it. I feel that if such a feature is implemented, it would be VERY important to have a conveniently-accessible option (menu option with a hotkey is good enough IMO) to toggle whether or not they're visible.

I would neither object to (even if it results in a loss of looping), nor specifically request, a scroll bar in place of the arrows for piece selection. Mouse wheel scroll would be very nice to have though.

I don't like the idea of an "all pieces of certain type" option. General convention is (outside of levels emulating VGASPECs) to not mix-and-match styles in most cases, unless specifically trying to design a mixed-style level, or using a piece type not present in the primary style. If this changes, then an "all pieces of type" option should be reconsidered at that point.
« Last Edit: March 19, 2018, 11:07:37 pm by namida »

Offline Nepster

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Re: [Feedback/Suggestions] Some general feedback from a new user
« Reply #5 on: March 20, 2018, 05:01:50 pm »
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That's your wishful thinking here: Where did the new user state, that they prefer a scroll bar?
As I said of course I bring in my solutions as suggestions. He only critized the arrows but still: "I am convinced that the scroll bar implementation will have a better resonance from users than the arrows even if you don't see it."
Yes, I can certainly see the advantage of a pure scroll bar for "Mausschubser" (i.e. users who do everything with the mouse and don't use hotkeys), but for me, who always scrolls the piece selection with hotkeys, the circular arrangement is far superior.
However I can certainly add the mouse wheel support for moving the piece scroll bar. The only problem is to separate this from the zooming feature, which is currently put on the mouse wheel.

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I have a totally different suggestion, with which I already nagged Simon regarding Lix: The addition of categories "All Traps", "All Hatches", ... that display the objects of that type that occur in any of the graphic styles. That way the user would directly have a wide selection of possible objects with the desired function.
I think that would be way to much clutter. Having for example 100 hatches (and the numbers only increase) next to each other woud be chaos and it will be difficult to pick the right one as a bunch of them look similar. I think having only 1 tileset appearing is a huge advantage and most people use only 1 tileset in a level at least the majority of the time.
I fear you and namida are misunderstanding me at this point: The "All objects of the currently selected style" option will certainly stay. I just suggest adding a few more options in the dropdown menu, that order the objects in a different way.

I would agree regarding displaying the piece sizes somehow. It doesn't necesserially need to be intrusive - maybe when you mouseover a piece in the selection, a popup tooltip displays the size (and perhaps other useful info, such as for objects the type of object, or for terrain whether it's steel or not).
Actually there is already a tooltip that tells you whether the piece is steel or not (or what type of object you hover over). Putting the piece size there would be easy to implement. The only question is: Would IchoTolot (and others) be satisfied with such a solution?

Whether or not this gets added, I still definitely see benefit in a fall distance ruler - and perhaps a few other (using Cheapo terminology) sketches here too, as a dedicated editor feature rather than the current workaround (if still in place) of having an nx_sketches graphic set. NeoLemmix itself would presumably safely ignore the information on them, and only the editor would actually pay attention to it. I feel that if such a feature is implemented, it would be VERY important to have a conveniently-accessible option (menu option with a hotkey is good enough IMO) to toggle whether or not they're visible.
I prefer not to add an actual object, but to copy the behavior of the NeoLemmix player: As long as you press a certain hotkey, the fall height ruler appears.

Offline IchoTolot

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Re: [Feedback/Suggestions] Some general feedback from a new user
« Reply #6 on: March 20, 2018, 05:14:59 pm »
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Yes, I can certainly see the advantage of a pure scroll bar for "Mausschubser" (i.e. users who do everything with the mouse and don't use hotkeys), but for me, who always scrolls the piece selection with hotkeys, the circular arrangement is far superior.
However I can certainly add the mouse wheel support for moving the piece scroll bar. The only problem is to separate this from the zooming feature, which is currently put on the mouse wheel.

I think mousewheel support would already be a good advantage.

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I fear you and namida are misunderstanding me at this point: The "All objects of the currently selected style" option will certainly stay. I just suggest adding a few more options in the dropdown menu, that order the objects in a different way.

Ok, great. Having more display options could really be helpful in some cases.

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Actually there is already a tooltip that tells you whether the piece is steel or not (or what type of object you hover over). Putting the piece size there would be easy to implement. The only question is: Would IchoTolot (and others) be satisfied with such a solution?

Would need to see, but my intuition tells me that this would be enough. I do need the information at some occasions and not 100% of the time consistantly throughout the level designing process --> tooltip should be enough.

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I prefer not to add an actual object, but to copy the behavior of the NeoLemmix player: As long as you press a certain hotkey, the fall height ruler appears.

I'm totally in favor of this.

Offline nin10doadict

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Re: [Feedback/Suggestions] Some general feedback from a new user
« Reply #7 on: March 21, 2018, 06:22:05 pm »
I like the idea of making the splat ruler appear with a single button press in the editor. The old editor made you dig out the fall ruler object from the "sketches" tab and use that, which was tedious.
Using the scroll wheel to leaf through pieces would be good... Perhaps it could be contextual to differentiate it from zooming. If your cursor is over the field, then it zooms, but if the cursor is on the piece selection window, then it scrolls.
I don't use piece size often, but I certainly wouldn't mind if it appeared on a mouse-over tooltip.

Offline Nepster

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Re: [Feedback/Suggestions] Some general feedback from a new user
« Reply #8 on: March 22, 2018, 07:26:58 pm »
I started by coding the easy stuff. This means the following changes are implemented:
- Show piece names by default.
- Piece sizes displayed in the tooltips.
- Piece selection can be scrolled with the mouse wheel, when hovering over the lower part of the GUI. It still isn't as smooth as one could hope for, but at least it works...