Author Topic: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?  (Read 3465 times)

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Offline Minim

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Hello everyone.

I know one game in the Lemmings series that contains all the levels in a single graphic set, and that is the Amiga version of Holiday Lemmings '94. All the levels are known to be possible (Well, why would you release a game if one of the levels are impossible?).

The big question is, can we make this situation possible on other games, such as Original and OhNo?

We have quite a few users on the forum that can design graphic sets (Gronkling, GigaLem, namida and now me too) so I thought why not create a challenge involving this concept?

This is a very unusual type of challenge. Not many challenges so far have been related to terrain. The only one I can remember was "Undamaged levels" back in 2012. This challenge not only tests your level and skills knowledge but how well your solutions are able to adapt with a change of graphics. Naturally, all levels are probably going to look messy, the rules can be a little bit complicated and this challenge may take a very long time to complete because of having to solve each level over again for every terrain change, but if this idea proves popular with other members, and if this theoretical graphic set idea works then the end result could be very rewarding.

Here are some rules to keep in mind when designing graphics:
* You can add or erase any part of the terrain you like.
* Object 0 must be an exit only, and the trigger area size must be 4x4. It can be in any position you like.
* Object 1 must be an entrance only and must be the same size.
* Because the objects of 2-15 vary, we can leave those out as blank "no effect" objects.
* Each terrain piece has an index number in a graphic set. Each index number in the unified set shows the width and height of the longest and tallest pieces. You are not allowed to exceed the size of any of the indices.

The rules to solve levels are just as normal: Save the required number of lemmings within the time limit using the given skillset.

I'm going to start off with Original Lemmings. Of course, at some point I will be encountering special graphic levels such as menacing. To avoid complications I'm going to leave those out, making a total of 116 levels. I may also leave out the earlier copied levels as most of them have tend to have more skills than the harder versions.

If anyone's interested in participating I won't hesitate to upload two attachments: One with the graphic set (Terrain pieces done, objects still to do) and the 116 levels (Work-in progress). Any queries I'm happy to answer.

Thanks!
« Last Edit: July 30, 2016, 04:51:57 am by Minim »
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline Proxima

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2016, 03:33:33 pm »
I've moved this to Level Design as it's a challenge for making levels, not for solving the existing levels.

Offline Wafflem

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2016, 05:59:30 pm »
This looks interesting. I just need to clarify - so you're making a completely new graphic set and recreating the Orig/Oh No levels with this graphic set? And if I join, does it mean I have to make my own graphics to add to the graphic set? I myself don't have the skill to make graphic sets, but the solving part of the level is something I'd be very happy to try out.
YouTube: www.tinyurl.com/YTWafflem
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Have level designer's block right now? Have some of my incomplete levels for LOTS of ideas!

Offline Minim

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2016, 08:17:13 pm »
This looks interesting. I just need to clarify - so you're making a completely new graphic set and recreating the Orig/Oh No levels with this graphic set?

Well, just the Original levels is what I'm thinking but that's exactly the point. If this idea proves to be popular then we could try OhNo separately.

And if I join, does it mean I have to make my own graphics to add to the graphic set? I myself don't have the skill to make graphic sets, but the solving part of the level is something I'd be very happy to try out.

Well, if you don't have the ability to make graphic sets that's fine. I don't mind if you just want to do some level solving. At the moment I've recreated all the levels in the set. Just need to bundle them together. I'm also just optimising a few more terrain pieces; so when I'm ready I'll release the pack!
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline Gronkling

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2016, 09:32:44 pm »
I think I misunderstood the post and thought it meant designing a tileset where any original level can have its tileset changed to it with no other modification and still be solvable. This is an interesting sounding challenge so I'm going to do that :P
LEMMINGS EVOLUTION completed levels: 100!!!
sorry for being gone so long D:

Offline Minim

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2016, 07:02:50 am »
OK, then. Looks like we have someone willing to play and someone willing to design, So let's go!

All levels attached in the zip file. The graphic set just needs exporting in order to edit it.
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline Minim

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2016, 06:04:21 pm »
* Object 0 must be an exit only, and the trigger area size must be 4x4. It can be any size you like.

I'm having a go at the Fun levels, and despite a lot of terrain modifying (Fun 6 has given me headaches already), I think we reached the end of the road already, unless we modify a restriction.

Fun 13 (Basically, all the We All Fall Down levels in general) is impossible without modifying the size of the trigger area. This is because the level uses the fire set, which has an exit noticeably bigger than the marble exit, the one I'm currently using. I wouldn't be surprised if Fun 18 (Another example of a non-builder fire level) happen to be impossible too. Looks like I need to make the restriction a bit more lenient and stretch the trigger area vertically, just to make sure that all floating exits are reachable.
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline Gronkling

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2016, 06:26:12 pm »
ive managed to get all the fun & tricky levels working with one tileset so far, but i havent been using the terrain size restriction.
LEMMINGS EVOLUTION completed levels: 100!!!
sorry for being gone so long D:

Offline Minim

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2016, 09:33:15 pm »
Wow! Good job completing all the tricky levels Gronkling! I was about to say that I got through most of Fun until I decided to take a break. Did you use one of the existing tilesets or did you compile your own?
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline Gronkling

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2016, 09:51:39 pm »
I started with every terrain tile as a 32x32 square and modified things as I went through each level to make it possible.
LEMMINGS EVOLUTION completed levels: 100!!!
sorry for being gone so long D:

Offline Minim

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2016, 10:30:43 am »
I think your idea of making each piece a 32x32 block to start off with is a very sensible one at that. May I have a look at that?

BTW with my stretched exit trigger area and terrain restriction, I've managed to get through all the Fun and Tricky levels. Fun 23 was one of the levels I struggled on the most because I had to build my way through volcanic ash like terrain; in other words, small fragments in variable sizes scattered everywhere. :sick: I don't think this will do me any favours by the time we get to the sequel.

Below is the update of my graphic set that helped me sail through the Fun and Tricky levels.

Now let's hope Taxing doesn't cause me too many problems...
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline Minim

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #11 on: July 31, 2016, 10:25:27 am »
And 24 hours later, I've completed all the Taxing levels! :)

BTW once I get through Mayhem (Only if I can), I will post a whole bundle of replays from the first level all the way to the last to prove that I've completed my quest, and of course, re-upload my graphic set for the final time. Some levels are literally walkovers, so for obvious reasons I won't submit replays for any of these levels that meet this criterion.

If anyone wants to see my updated graphic set please feel free to reply.
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline Gronkling

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #12 on: July 31, 2016, 01:05:47 pm »
This tileset should work with all levels :D Mayhem 1 is a bit messy though and might not be possible with non-solid sides. this was a really fun challenge!
LEMMINGS EVOLUTION completed levels: 100!!!
sorry for being gone so long D:

Offline Minim

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #13 on: July 31, 2016, 06:22:01 pm »
Looks very neat! :thumbsup: Can't wait to find out how useful some of the bigger terrain pieces can be. I'll give this set a try and see if I can beat all the levels...
The user formerly known as minimac

Offline Minim

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Re: NeoLemmix: Can you solve all levels with a unified graphic set?
« Reply #14 on: August 03, 2016, 07:41:51 pm »
And the answer is... - without the terrain size restriction - YES! Well done Gronkling! Have to praise your set particularly on Mayhem 19 and 26, especially with the exact positioning of some erased pieces, I thought that was very clever indeed. :thumbsup: The levels I found the most difficult were Taxing 12, Taxing 26 and Mayhem 18. Somehow, I didn't have too many problems on Mayhem 1.

Now here's a big bundle of replays to confirm. I renamed the graphic set to unifiedorig.dat, to make sure it works on the levels I saved them under. If the replays don't work it's likely because of this.

The user formerly known as minimac