Author Topic: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings  (Read 59766 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« on: October 19, 2009, 03:25:18 AM »
Hi folks,

L++ Lix is a game similar to Lemmings that features networked multiplayer games. I've deleoped it during the past years in my free time, and did a lot of bugfixing for it in the past weeks. It is free software and cross-platform.

Download for Windows
Source on github (should build on Windows, Linux, Mac, others)

I'm eager to play it with you here. :-D I believe it's most fun with four players at once.

To play a multiplayer game, try to connect to the central game server via the top button in the multiplayer menu.

Contact/IRC: irc.quakenet.org #lix, chat in your browser. Or post on this board. Or send email to eiderdaus at the gmail.com.

-- Simon
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 07:22:06 AM by Simon »

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #1 on: October 19, 2009, 08:06:20 AM »
I've played around a bit with your level editor -- I slightly prefer Lemmix so far, but the ability to make and play new multiplayer levels is an exciting new feature. I've designed a pretty bare-bones 2 player level, and if time allows I'm going to try making some 4 player levels.

Playing 4 players is so much fun -- there's so much to keep track of and you really have to have a plan to prevent everyone else from reaching the exit.

Overall this is probably the best multi-player Lemmings app out there, zero lag + some of the "new" features (a few Lemmings 2 skills, and a few interesting mechanics -- such as bombers sending all Lemmings in a certain radius -- including blockers -- flying) makes this an incredibly fun experience. Geoo and I got 2 player working with Hamachi.
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #2 on: October 19, 2009, 08:18:45 PM »
Well, I have downloaded the game and got everything sorted out, but the problem is I can't find anyone online. Maybe we should just keep sending private messages to everyone saying "do you want to play online with me at some point?".

Because there aren't so many users around I need to think of a specific time of the day when we can play online lemmings. I can't wait for the excitement to happen!
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #3 on: October 19, 2009, 08:53:30 PM »
Try again looking for me now.

I live in Germany and the university semester has started, so I'd propose something that is in the later evening for me. That should fit for Americans as well. 22:00 UTC maybe, this is 00:00 local time and 23:00 local time after daylight savings are over.

I can host a game then, so there aren't any problems with closed ports. My IP address usually changes once a day. Try to connect with L++ to 79.200.183.66 at exactly 22:00 UTC today, i.e. in under half an hour. :-)

If nobody comes, I will open again at 22:30 and 23:00 UTC. After that I will probably go to bed and we'll try tomorrow.

-- Simon

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #4 on: October 19, 2009, 09:48:30 PM »
Try again looking for me now.
79.200.183.66 at exactly 22:00 UTC today, i.e. in under half an hour. :-)

22:00 UTC, which is where I live at the moment, should be 23:00 (But the clocks are going back soon...)

I'm sorry Simon, but that is a little too late for me, as I may be sleeping at this time. I would like to play 2 hours earlier than that. We will try again tomorrow.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #5 on: October 19, 2009, 10:18:24 PM »
I'd like to give this a try sometime - possibly right now. I've never played an online game before, except for a couple of minutes on Burnout Paradise (which hardly counts), so this is going to be a completely new experience for me.

I've downloaded the game and got it to run. Now what?

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #6 on: October 20, 2009, 12:44:06 AM »
Insane Steve:
Thanks for the accolade. :-D If you use Lemmix, you just have to make sure that the entrance hatch order in the LVL file is the same as the order of the corresponding exits.

minimac:
Yep, 20:00 UTC should work. If I've got time then, I'll post the IP.

Clam Spammer:
If you use either Jabber or ICQ, just write me anytime and we'll set up a game.

Otherwise, we could agree upon a time via forum posts here or PM. Tomorrow (October 20th) at 20:00 UTC is a time that would fit minimac as well, would that work?

L++ networking mode goes like this: One player is the server (or host), he clicks on "start server" in the L++ networking menu and then waits for other players. Everybody else is a client who is going to connect to the server, these players enter the server's IP address in the networking menu and hit "connect to".

Most computers are behind a NAT router when they access the internet, so they cannot be a server unless the router is configured to forward L++'s traffic to them. I have done this on my router, so I can be the server in a game between us. If you're a client, you do not have to change anything on your router.

-- Simon

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2009, 01:40:08 AM »
Clam Spammer:
If you use either Jabber or ICQ
Nope and nope.  ;) I do have Messenger though.


I think the time you suggested (20:00)  is a bit too early for me, although I'm not sure exactly what time that corresponds to here in New Zealand (I checked a couple of world time websites before, and they didn't seem to match up with what you said). Anyway, I think that's 7am here.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2009, 02:29:07 AM »
Heh, 7 a.m. isn't the best option either. I'll drop you a PM so we can find out a nice time.

-- Simon

Offline DragonsLover

  • Posts: 1234
  • Do you want fire?
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #9 on: October 20, 2009, 06:31:04 AM »
Wow! That' really cool! 8)

I'm living in Quebec, so it's UTC -4 for me (6 PM if it's 10 PM for you). But I'm wondering if I'll have to set an IP address or something... How should I configure L++? :-[

Also, I was thinking if Co-op games could be available too. FFA is nice, but I guess it could also be interesting to be working in teams as well, like 2 vs 2 or 3 vs 3 and have maps specially for that. Some other mods would be nice as well like CTF, racing, tagging or whatever...
I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #10 on: October 20, 2009, 06:33:16 AM »
I notice this game supports cylindrical and toroidal world wrapping. This could make for some awesome custom levels (bottomless pits, anyone? :D)

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #11 on: October 20, 2009, 06:35:06 AM »
I notice this game supports cylindrical and toroidal world wrapping. This could make for some awesome custom levels (bottomless pits, anyone? :D)

Yes I have noticed that too, similar to Lemmings Revolution, and for lemmings who love to take an infinity fall as well, and they'll probably splat when they hit something. :(
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #12 on: October 20, 2009, 07:20:09 AM »
I'm up for anyone who wants to play.

I made a 2p custom with both wrappings. It's so simple but so complex at the same time  ;P
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #13 on: October 20, 2009, 09:14:54 AM »
bump

geoo and I tested our 2p customs playing against each other. Combined we managed to make 5 levels which I feel are much better than anything in the "official" games.

Geoo's levels were very tactical. There was one which is basically a 2 player version of Fun 3, which while it sounds simple is really not at all. The other is an exercise in skill conservation, something the original levels didn't do at all really. Both of these were quite different than any 2p levels we played so far, and thus an incredibly fun experience.

My levels were a lot more "brute-force" style. One in particular required you to think about both a upper and a lower route at once; if you just ignore the upper route as "impossible" you may find your opponent saving a lot mroe lemmings than you'd like! Another is basically a solid wall with both wrapping enabled -- I might try and replicate this on 4p because it's so hectic to figure out. The other is basically "get down as fast as possible without floaters" -- still solid but the weakest of my levels in my opinion.

Custom 2p mode is ridiculously fun. I highly suggest, after you play some multiplayer stages, that you think about making your own levels. Both geoo's and my initial attempts were incredibly fun to play.
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1417
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2009, 04:42:09 PM »
I kinda have problems with the game and sprites
But can you please show us more videos

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #15 on: October 20, 2009, 05:29:40 PM »
All:
I will host today on 20:00 UTC, i.e. in just under 3,5 hours, and everybody's invited. My IP is currently (Edit: not longer the same). I will edit the post if it changes (unlikely). Around that time, open L++, click Network Game, and enter said IP address next to "Connect to".

The toroidal wraparound feature is fun, it integrates so nicely with the game flow and allows very balanced multiplayer maps. I just had to implement this, I study mathematics and specialize in Topology. ;-)

DragonsLover:
Team play is something I've also thought about, as it makes a lot of sense for this game. I will look into a new feature like this when I have a day of free time, and when I'm done fixing some very small things in the current version.

Giga:
A possible cause is to not unpack the files with their directory sructure. Everything but one-two files should be in the subdirectories bitmap/, data/, levels/ and replay/.

I'm thinking about recording the session tonight with Livestream. Edit: I have done that. See my next post for the links to the videos.

-- Simon

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #16 on: October 20, 2009, 08:23:34 PM »
Heh, the wrapping is almost essential to make balanced levels with more than 2 player, especially if the number is odd. I went with analysis this semester though, though going by the exam result perhaps I should indeed have chosen algebra instead...

Having played quite a lot of games by now, I think I should finally drop a note here.

I have to admit, the purist as I am when it comes to physics, that I was initially somewhat sceptical; however the physics just feel right, and playing with other players isn't about executing obscure glitches after all... Playing is so exciting that I didn't notice the different style of the skillbar etc. at all; and objectively, it actually looks pretty nice!

While the games I had with Steve on the Amiga were already very good, the better control due to the lack of lag and the possibility to play custom levels made this even better. Tendency seems to be that Steve is winning an increasing percentage of games against me though. ><img src=" title="Angry" class="smiley" /> ;P It's amazing how there's like a sheer endless number of possible strategies to each level, and again each of our custom levels had us play out new strategies... The potential of Steve's two route level surprised both of us.
I guess we could upload our levels so that they are available to anyone.
In regards to custom levels, I made another 2P one, extends the Fun 3 style one to 3P and 4P and created an additional 3P level.

As for coordinating 'meetings', I guess setting a date & time like Simon just did is the best way through the forum (in that regard, I'll be there at 20:00 today :)). For more spontaneous occasions though perhaps we could share IM details, or even get an IRC channel allowing to talk at more than two.
Watching the video Simon recorded with Peter, another possible idea might be talking through Skype while playing, as it's nigh impossible to type being that busy with the game. Don't know how heavy it is on the connection due to the voice data to be transferred though.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #17 on: October 21, 2009, 01:14:33 AM »
Four chaotic hours of fun with geoo, Clam Spammer, minimac, Peter and Insane Steve. :-)

Video, first part

Video, second part

-- Simon

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #18 on: October 21, 2009, 02:19:18 AM »
There's no way my internet connection can handle that much video. Fortunately I saved some replays for myself :)

(wait a second - Insane Steve wasn't there, was he?)



Well... my first true multiplayer gaming experience. What can I say but... epic. Just epic. :thumbsup:


A few things I noticed while I was playing, some good and some bad:

  • Having different game mechanics to the original version really levels the playing field, by taking away a whole host of glitches that you could exploit on the Amiga version.
  • Now that I've seen them in action, I can verify that knockback exploders are the way to go. Having a couple of non-Classic skills (Walker especially) is nice.
  • World wrapping is rather confusing. On balance, it's probably for the best though. It helps to keep the game going for longer, instead of all the lemmings disappearing off the screen if you can't get them straight to the exit. And let's face it - with 3 guys wrecking your path, there's no way you're going to get straight to the exit. Also (as previously mentioned) good for balance.
  • The pic of your lemming over the exit is much more useful than a flag. Good call on that one.
  • The way the lemmings stand still for a moment when they hit the ground means you don't have to time your clicks perfectly on some moves (like placing a blocker that your lemmings walk past when they fall onto it). This is good.


And slightly less good...
  • Some of the hotkeys for Classic skills are inconsistent. A couple of times, I hit F7 expecting a builder, and I got a blocker instead. I think Classic skills, where they are present, should always have the same hotkey and position on the toolbar.
  • Apparently the splat height is the same as in the original game. However, with the size of the levels, this seems out of proportion. Especially when you consider that Lemmings 2 (from which some game mechanics are borrowed) has a huge safe fall distance. The "stunned" phase between safe and unsafe would be nice too.
  • I thought the "overtime" was a little short on some levels. Personally, I think 1 minute should be a minimum across the board.
  • Sometimes your lemmings go left from the start, and you don't know about it until the level starts. May I suggest putting arrows over the trapdoors to tell us which way the lemmings go?
  • Would it be possible to add some more colours? I know you don't need more than 8, but it couldn't hurt to have more. (Plus grey and black look very similar.)

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #19 on: October 21, 2009, 02:27:35 AM »
I played 1 game today, and I really wasn't there at all when I was playing it hahaha  :P
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2009, 02:30:51 AM »
Heh, I just watched the replay of that one game... Sorry, I didn't notice at the time :(

Just thought of something else - queueing builders is nice, but it would be nicer if we could un-queue them too (sometimes giving them a different skill isn't an option...)

Offline weirdybeardy

  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2009, 08:56:22 PM »
 :( I'm having trouble getting the game to work. I've downloaded it and extracted it, but when I load it straight from the .exe, I just get a black, unresponsive screen, which I can only exit by ctrl+alt+del... Do I need to reorganise the directories? Is it because of a resource the application can't access...?
My projects:

Lemmings in Weirdyland (NeoLemmix):
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6135.0

My levels for Lemmings 2 The Tribes can be found here:
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=990.0

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2009, 09:24:47 PM »
Clam Spammer:
Thanks for the detailed review, I will probably come back to that soon!

weirdybeardy:
Try to run the game with the -w command line switch. This starts the game in windowed mode. (How to set a switch: Make a link to lpp.exe, right-click the link, select properties, and append " -w" (without quotes) after the target. Then use the link to run L++.)

If that works, go to the options and enter your desired fullscreen resolution in the corresponding two fields. Then run the game without the -w switch again. If fullscreen doesn't work at all, there's also an option to run the game always in windowed mode, even when not using -w.

-- Simon

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2009, 10:14:16 PM »
I just noticed one of the replays I saved yesterday is corrupted. It was a 4-player level, but in the replay there are only three trapdoors and exits, and three players. And, if I recall the game correctly, it's my team that's gone missing (which means the colours are wrong as well). The other players' moves are messed up too... I've attached the replay file so you can see for yourself.


By the way, I have some custom levels under construction.

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2009, 10:26:35 PM »
I may as well post my first three levels here. I have a 4th but it's not tested yet. All are 2 player levels.
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #25 on: October 22, 2009, 02:40:42 AM »
Some issues with the editor now:

  • How do you make a trapdoor drop lemmings to the left?
  • Sometimes it asks me to save the level before exiting, even though I've just saved it. Then when I hit "no" and go back to the menu, the level is blank. I think this happened when I saved it in a lvl file (copied over from Lemmix) instead of a new txt file.
  • Sometimes the terrain pieces seem to "group" together - when I click on a particular one, it selects a whole lot of others as well.
  • Selection boxes mess up when I drag over a large area on a level with wrapping. They flip over when you get halfway around the level, and cover the other half instead.
  • For consistency with Lemmix, I think it would be better for map sizes and terrain grids to be multiples of 8 (or 16 since everything is doubled here) instead of 10.

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #26 on: October 22, 2009, 07:44:37 AM »
  • How do you make a trapdoor drop lemmings to the left?

Maybe hide some terrain beneath it? I have two levels from lm_set13.dat which have left fallers. I'd be interested if you have a go at them, especially Level 5.

Edit: they only work on Lemmini. How sad. :( ;P
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #27 on: October 22, 2009, 08:04:46 AM »
Quote from: Clam Spammer
How do you make a trapdoor drop lemmings to the left?

Lemmings will walk to the left iff all of these apply:
- The level is played in multiplayer,
- there is no horizontal wraparound and
- the trapdoor's lemming entry point is on the right half of the level.

I haven't made a custom directory selector for the hatches, as I've thought that the current system would work. It's not documented yet, however.

Quote from: Clam Spammer
Sometimes it asks me to save the level before exiting, even though I've just saved it. Then when I hit "no" and go back to the menu, the level is blank. I think this happened when I saved it in a lvl file (copied over from Lemmix) instead of a new txt file.

The things are probably still written in the .LVL file, but in L++ format. If you rename the file to .TXT, it will be openend properly again, as the program uses the extension to determine the data format.

I should do something about this, as it is very irritating. Either implement saving LVLs natively, but this will be a problem in case they're played in Lemmix, as I neither read, use nor save steel areas. Or always make sure that trying to overwrite a LVL file always generates a new TXT file. Not relying on the extension is also good, but managing the file folders might become more uncertain for the user who uses Lemmix with the same files.

Quote from: Clam Spammer
Sometimes the terrain pieces seem to "group" together - when I click on a particular one, it selects a whole lot of others as well.

If you're not using the frame-dragging button or its hotkey Shift, then it's a bug, although I haven't seen it before.

Quote from: Clam Spammer
Selection boxes mess up when I drag over a large area on a level with wrapping. They flip over when you get halfway around the level, and cover the other half instead.

I still wonder what the best method is for determining what way the user wants to select things. Do they also wrap around when they fit on a single screen? In that case, it should always go with the rectangle that doesn't go offscreen.

Quote from: Clam Spammer
For consistency with Lemmix, I think it would be better for map sizes and terrain grids to be multiples of 8 (or 16 since everything is doubled here) instead of 10.

Very good thing, I will swap the 5 for the 16. I need the 10 in some cases for my self-drawn objects.

---

Steve:
Thanks, I will add those levels into the next version, so everybody can select them from their folder.

geoo:
Not copying the physics from L1/ONML/... exactly was actually my biggest fear when I thought about presenting my game on these forums in the past. If they're playable and fun, and even feel nice for regulars here - then that's really good. :-)

-- Simon

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #28 on: October 22, 2009, 09:00:05 AM »
Not copying the physics from L1/ONML/... exactly was actually my biggest fear when I thought about presenting my game on these forums in the past. If they're playable and fun, and even feel nice for regulars here - then that's really good. :-)

L1/ONML mechanics is overrated.  Just ask CustLemm level makers the bane of steel destruction glitches. :P Or the mystery of exits not working, levels crashing due to steel areas sticking outside the level boundaries, etc., before the days of Lemmix's level validator.  And don't forget that there's Cheapo, which has been pretty popular for a while on the old old forums.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #29 on: October 22, 2009, 09:36:17 AM »
 :agree:

Although, unfortunately, it does make some existing custom levels unplayable. For example, I just found that "Bumpy Ride" is impossible due to the different slope-walking mechanics. Also, the screen start positions are messed up.


Lemmings will walk to the left iff all of these apply:
- The level is played in multiplayer,
- there is no horizontal wraparound and
- the trapdoor's lemming entry point is on the right half of the level.

Did you mean iff, of just if? ;)

Anyway, I can see a situation where it would be better to let the level designer choose, rather than trying to guess their intentions. If you want to make a 2-player level (or perhaps 2v2) with wrapping, for example, it might be better to make the two teams run into each other at the start rather than chasing each other around the map.


Quote
The things are probably still written in the .LVL file, but in L++ format. If you rename the file to .TXT, it will be openend properly again, as the program uses the extension to determine the data format.

Oh... well, it's a bit late now, but that works.

Quote
If you're not using the frame-dragging button or its hotkey Shift, then it's a bug, although I haven't seen it before.

Well, to be fair, it only happened once. But it did make things rather difficult when it happened. Whenever I clicked on this one bit of terrain (I didn't use Shift), it selected a bunch of nearby terrain pieces. Even when dragging a selection box including a couple of other pieces, selecting this one triggered the glitch.


Quote
I still wonder what the best method is for determining what way the user wants to select things. Do they also wrap around when they fit on a single screen? In that case, it should always go with the rectangle that doesn't go offscreen.

They wrap around when I scroll across while dragging. Interestingly, it seems to behave differently depending on which direction I drag it - if I drag to the right, when it switches over I can then drag it to the left edge of the screen and select a whole "band" of terrain. This doesn't appear to work in any other direction.

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #30 on: October 22, 2009, 04:53:28 PM »
I will host today on 20:00 UTC, i.e. in just under 3,5 hours, and everybody's invited. My IP is currently (Edit: not longer the same). I will edit the post if it changes (unlikely).

Well, could someone explain to me how these IP addresses work? I don't understand what they do.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #31 on: October 22, 2009, 08:02:35 PM »
I haven't tried L++ yet so I can't give you specific instructions, but IP addresses are simply how individual computers connected to the Internet are identified, roughly speaking.  Since Simon is currently using his computer as server for hosting the multiplayer games, the players need to tell L++ which server to connect to, and the IP address is how you would tell L++ to connect to Simon's computer for the server.  For a real life analogy, imagine that this is an actual house party and Simon's hosting it in his house.  If you want to attend the party, you'd need Simon to give you the address to his house, right?  Same deal here with the IP address.

Simon should have instructions on setting up multiplayer games somewhere in this thread.  I'll bet that somewhere in the instructions is a step where you have to enter the IP address of the server.  That's where you'd enter whatever Simon posts up here for his IP address.

Offline DragonsLover

  • Posts: 1234
  • Do you want fire?
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #32 on: October 23, 2009, 09:11:11 PM »
Mine is : 75.154.174.81
If someone's interested for another game, just let me know here.
I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #33 on: October 23, 2009, 09:27:37 PM »
I haven't tried L++ yet so I can't give you specific instructions, but IP addresses are simply how individual computers connected to the Internet are identified, roughly speaking. [...]

I think minimac might have been wondering why Simon's IP address keeps changing (and I've never heard of this either...)


Now a few thoughts from my 2P games with geoo yesterday.

Blockers seem to be too powerful, even with knockback exploders to dislodge them. A few reasons for this:
  • Removing an enemy blocker costs you a lemming without your opponent losing one.
  • A dislodged blocker can just block again when it gets up, and since your lemmings get caught in the explosion too your lemmings can't overtake the enemy in the meantime.
  • Blockers placed on key bridges are very powerful since you can't build over them (at least not without using a blocker yourself), and by removing the blocker you make a hole in your bridge.


Diggers are also very powerful. If your lemmings get caught in an enemy digger's pit, the only feasible way to save the situation is an exploder, or a whole lot of climbers - bashers and miners are completely useless in this situation. Using a few diggers (thus stopping the enemy digger by removing the ground under it) could work too, but it costs you far more than it does your opponent.

Climbers don't appear to be very useful. They're just too easy to stop. I don't know if there's anything that can be done about this.

Steel under entrances and exits is absolutely vital for gameplay. While neither of us resorted to actually digging out the ground directly beneath an exit, I knew (and I suspect geoo did too) that the possibility exists, and we both came very close to doing this at times. I've noticed that on level 13 of the original 2P Lemmings (which we played yesterday), you could make the opponent's exit completely inaccessible by digging/bombing the terrain around it.

Levels with few skills, while an interesting concept, don't allow for much creativity and (IMHO) aren't much fun. The same goes for the number of lemmings (and the number of players, for that matter ;)). It seems to me a case of "more is more", and not less.

Overall... well, first impressions of the 2P game aren't great, to be honest. Quite a comedown after the "party" games earlier in the week.


It would be nice to be able to see the level stats before the game starts, by the way.


EDIT: I should mention, I'm still up for a game if anyone wants to play ;)

Offline Adam

  • Posts: 424
  • Just one more level....
    • View Profile
    • Lemmings Forums
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #34 on: October 23, 2009, 11:18:04 PM »
I'm interested in trying this out! If anyone's up for a 2p game, just gimme a shout.

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2009, 07:07:41 PM »
Maybe next time we play multiplayer, I would be interested to see "Pillars of Hercules". I know about the fact that there are limited skills but still, if I get to play it (or watch it), I would be so excited!
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #36 on: October 24, 2009, 09:23:27 PM »
Perhaps we could set a date for another meeting with many players?
Tomorrow is still weekend, so I'd suggest that day; I'm personally pretty flexible in regards to the time, so I suggest someone else could set a time.

I definately have to agree on the blockers, the issue with them is that they block the way instantly, and with many blockers available, things get easily pretty messy when trying to remove them.
There's also a tendency that most action seems to take place near the exits, and blockers serve as an easy last resort there.
The only good option I see is cutting down the number of blockers. While there also good instances for using blockers (e.g. separating one's own lemmings from the other ones), the ones I can think of right now can also be achieved otherwise, even though not getting the effect instantly might be a slight disadvantage.

I also agree on the diggers, though I found their power especially prevalent in the previous games we had with more than 2 players. It seems that with the L++ physics it's very difficult to release diggers using diggers of ones own. It's impossible to overtake a digger, as miners are slower vertically as well, and using builders to close the gap will for one rarely keep all lemmings up, and can also easily be destroyed again. So a digger is pretty much in control of the crowd around him. It seems again that cutting down their number is the only decent option for that. Or introduction of the Bomber skill from Lemmings 2 (though you'd still get down with enough of them).
Another advantage of the digger over the miner is that if there's terrain over the digger's pit, you cannot easily close the gap using builders (though with the platformer this can be prevented).

Whether climbers are useful greatly depends on the level though I think. Especially if it's difficult to access the exit by some other means, like in ONML 1, ONML 5 or Orig 3. In that case, the strategy would be to merely save the climbers, and ensure that the opponent won't get a different path to the exit. Of course it has to be ensured that the climbers' path won't be destroyed by the oppoent's lemmings too early, an ensuring this is an interesting task in itself. Also climbers can get out of deadly digger pits.

I find steel under the entrance/exit is not that vital, as building into the exit and hitting the trigger area is not as much of a hassle as it is in the DOS physics. It's comparable to fixing a bridge the opponent destroyed, from the builder requirement. Still it's not that nice having too much action near the exits.

One thing I noticed in the original levels, levels with paths where builders are potentially important (e.g. deadly bottom of level, or simply having to get upwards), some levels are pretty unbalanced between terrain removal skills and terrain creating skills, like having 20 of each which means 60 terrain removal skills and only 20 builders.

Yeah, the experimental levels with very limited skills were less interesting than I hoped them to be. I guess limiting/removing certain types of skills is more the way to go. Like ClamSpammer's miner- and digger-less level, which I liked very much with its multiple possible paths and the limitation of horizontal terrain removal. The blockers I used to delay my defeat could be reduced though.

Can't agree on 'the more players the better' though, I find 2P and more players have somewhat different type of gameplay, both of which I like. More than 2P sure has more action element, however maintaining some more control in 2P allows for more time to think about strategies.
I like however that more than 2P still allows for a balanced gameplay due to that aim of the game: In games where the only aim is to survive against the others, having more than 2 players frequently leads to inbalance, while in the lemmings games we had I haven't seen anyone team up against a certain player; only caring about one's own Lemmings and preventing any lemmings to enter a different exit.

L1/ONML mechanics is overrated.  Just ask CustLemm level makers the bane of steel destruction glitches. :P Or the mystery of exits not working, levels crashing due to steel areas sticking outside the level boundaries, etc., before the days of Lemmix's level validator.  And don't forget that there's Cheapo, which has been pretty popular for a while on the old old forums.
I guess some of us have grown fond of these peculiarities :P, but yeah, they aren't useful for that kind of gameplay. I especially like the way steel is handled in L++.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2009, 01:40:02 AM »
ClamSpammer's miner- and digger-less level, which I liked very much with its multiple possible paths and the limitation of horizontal terrain removal. The blockers I used to delay my defeat could be reduced though.

Funny you should mention that, since that's exactly what I did after the game. :D

I should be able to play tomorrow, though I can't guarantee it at this point. I think the same time as the last meeting (2000 - 0000 UTC) would be fine. Maybe even earlier if I can drag myself out of bed :P

If we do agree on tommorow, then I'll make an effort to get my levels ready tonight.

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2009, 07:45:23 AM »
Who will be the host for this game, and what would the address be now that Simon has changed it?
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2009, 08:22:17 AM »
Yep, I can host at 20:00 UTC today, Sunday, October 25th. My IP address today is (edit: expired), and everyone's invited.

However, I probably won't be up longer than 21:30, as I have university on the morning after. If someone else wishes to host instead, he's welcome. :-) (Host should have an open port 22934 for UDP.)

A problem with the current version is that the L++ host must attain all the games and cannot leave early. I have begun writing a dedicated server today, i.e. a server program that runs separately from L++, and the players will connect to that program. The goal is that this can be run around the clock on a computer that is always connected to the net, unlike mine. I will not have it done until tonight, though, as it requires some restructuring of the game as well.

-- Simon

PS. I will certainly consider altering the L++ physics if you all see fit. Stopping a digger by digging yourself sounds really good, and it even makes sense because you steal the other digger's earth. There are a lot of similar things in this thread that I still want to comment on.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2009, 09:09:11 AM »
Yep, I can host at 20:00 UTC today, Sunday, October 25th. I will edit this post and insert my IP address here before that time.

Awesome. :)

By the way, I noticed that even though the time limits on your MP levels are just "overtime" and are really short, some can still be solved (with 100% even) in single player mode. Like:

- The Party Tree (100%)
- Pyramid with a Platform (maybe 100%, haven't tried this yet)
- Go up one floor (100%)
- Ripe enough for the Island

And I also managed to save a lemming on "Precise fastclick solves".



Here are the levels I've been working on. The attached zip contains six levels, but really only two. One is for 2 or 4 players, and the other is for anything from 2 to 5 players. I recommend looking over these now, so you know how they work before the game starts ;)

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2009, 03:55:52 PM »
I'll sure be in. :)

I (and Simon) got to take note that in our time zone it's one hour earlier than last time due to the DST adjustment.
Got to get up the next moring for university as well.

Attached the levels I made up to now (I amended the few-skill levels to have more again); the reason I have so many Pillar/Classic style levels is mostly the grid size of 10, and the blocks are 20 low-res pixels high. Perhaps it'd be best if the possiblity to set an arbitrary grid size was implemented, as for e.g. this style 8/16 pixels wouldn't work that well, and brick/hell styles have many multiples of 12 yet again. Also the distance a copied piece will be offset should be affected by this grid then.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2009, 06:43:37 AM »
Another great session this morning (/ last night), although a lot shorter than the previous one unfortunately.


The blocker issue was highlighted again sadly. However, a solution was mooted that I think could work quite nicely: add the Bomber skill from Lemmings 2. Two big advantages here - no 5 second timer to deal with, and no need to sacrifice a lemming. This will make blocker removal much easier, and I don't think it would make blockers too weak as a result.

I've noticed that in replays, the black team (if there is one) shows up in the regular blue and green instead of black. Why is this? It makes things hard to follow when there are blue and green teams as well...

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2009, 07:18:57 AM »
Just to let you know that I'm on a half term break, so I get no school for a week plus an INSET day, so I'll be back on the 3rd of November.

I'm thinking of a time to play at the moment at around the morning. I do prefer one-on-one action. I will probably need to send a private message or an e-mail in order to get this "2 players only" lemmings working.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2009, 07:50:28 AM »
One other idea I had. In addition to having pictures of the lemmings over the exit, you could put them on the trapdoors too. Plus you could make them face in the direction that the lemmings walk when they enter the level.

Offline DragonsLover

  • Posts: 1234
  • Do you want fire?
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2009, 06:38:56 PM »
It was indeed a great session. :thumbsup:

About the "Blocker" issue, I was thinking about another skill from Lemmings 2 : the Stacker. I guess it could be interesting to create walls and at the same time, would become easier to remove. Climbers could be used more often too. I mean, we already have the Builder for diagonal construction and Platformer for horizontal construction. Why not vertical as well? What do you think?
I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #46 on: October 29, 2009, 07:07:30 AM »
I'm not sure about using stackers instead of blockers. Sometimes you need to turn around a whole lot of guys at once (like when they're about to fall down a deep pit), and you don't have time to wait for a stacker. Then again, one could argue that's punishment for bunching up all your lemmings in one place, but that wouldn't be fun.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #47 on: October 31, 2009, 07:06:21 PM »
Hi,

I will upload a new testing version tomorrow evening.

Read the changelist

Most important things from that list: Dedicated server application, revamped digger physics, entrance hatch direction selection, and something nice for any singleplayer connoisseur - VGASPEC support thanks to Mindless!

The Stacker and the Bombers are both very nice ideas. Making a skill from scratch takes some time, though. I was planning to implement the Roper some time ago, and I'm done drawing it, however, its physics will be not as simple.

We can already agree upon a time to test the new version if you like. :-) This time should be within the upcoming week.

-- Simon

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #48 on: November 01, 2009, 06:34:25 AM »
About the "Blocker" issue, I was thinking about another skill from Lemmings 2 : the Stacker. I guess it could be interesting to create walls and at the same time, would become easier to remove. Climbers could be used more often too. I mean, we already have the Builder for diagonal construction and Platformer for horizontal construction. Why not vertical as well? What do you think?

I think it's great to have a stacker. I also want a magnobooter as well like in Sports 7.

The Stacker and the Bombers are both very nice ideas. Making a skill from scratch takes some time, though. I was planning to implement the Roper some time ago, and I'm done drawing it, however, its physics will be not as simple.

Roper? Are you crazy? ??? I wouldn't agree there unless someone gives a reason why Ropers are good in multiplayer.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #49 on: November 01, 2009, 02:41:18 PM »
Ah, these sound like quite some useful additions. That'd mean that there's no need for Hamachi if someone with the right port settings provides a server even when not playing himself. Also kudos to Mindless, especially as it seems that this is not the first contribution to the project.
Just out of interest, are replays compatible across versions, or do they screw up when the physics are altered? I see there's a version parameter in the files, so I suppose they'd just be unplayable with different version.
I think I should be available in the evenings the entire week, though I'd prefer the date not to be Tuesday.

btw, a bit belated, but I must say I found the latest mutiplayer session even better than the previous one we had!

Good thing about the stacker is that it is pretty useless for last-ditch efforts near an exit, yet useful for containing your own crowd (unless you have a lemming of a different team in it, but that might be considered a reward for the opponent). Unless you have all of your lemmings densely crammed, the stacker should be fast enough to have only few lemmings pass by. I guess it depends on the level design whether stackers can replace blockers.

I'm totally in favour of the roper, because it's very flexible and finally gives a chance for the terrain creating skills to stand a chance against the terrain removal ones. They allow for quickly crossing gaps or fixing destroyed passways, might get messy for certain types of levels though.
Yeah, in Lemmings 2 the roper seems to behave a little erratic as well. I'd have assumed it to move on a parabolic path leaving a trail (rope) behind, and if the length is too long or the arc is not straight enough, the the trail is removed. But in Lemmings 2 the path doesn't even really look like a parabole.

Haha, with so many skills borrowed from Lemmings 2, you could almost introduce the Lemmings 2 styles. :P

Offline Isu

  • Posts: 693
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #50 on: November 01, 2009, 06:06:56 PM »
I had a go at this the other day and I kind of like it. I much prefer this editor over Lemmix - It seems very similar to lemedit, and the single player side is generally very good (I've already completed all of Simons "Test" levels, haha). I noticed however that there were no one way arrows; I made a level but it is pretty broken without them. If the community would get behind L++ and make some more single player levels, it could easily succeed cheapo.

Not had a chance to try out any 2 Player games yet - mainly because I don't post much but yeah.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #51 on: November 01, 2009, 10:54:49 PM »
Hi,

version 2009-11-01 is up:
Download page

Mindless has set up an L++ server. To connect, enter flux.camanis.net in the IP/hostname box and hit "connect to". We should try out this server in our next session. If it works nicely, I will add a button that always connects to there. :-D

Maybe Wednesday, November 4th at 20:00 UTC is an okay time for the next playtest?

(Note that at this time, the server has just the same functionality as a regular hosting L++ player. There is always a single game open to join, and everyone who's connected must hit "ready" to begin. Things like opening separate rooms sound like very nice additions, but require further restructuring of the netcode.)

minimac:
Yeah, I'm not sure which new skill would tackle the current problems best. Stacker, bomber and roper are all highly situational. The best thing might be to implement several and let the level designer choose, I'll see what I have time for.

geoo:
About L2 styles in L++... this might be something for the next semester break if there is good documentation available, heh.

We could try a skype conference during a networking session if everybody has it available. You said you do, I also do; we could ask around who else does. The best part will be hearing other people rant and shout. :-D

Isu:
Thanks for the great review. Especially that you find the editor usable is awesome to hear. Follow the topic and just drop in when we agree upon a date/time for the next netgame. :-)

-- Simon

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #52 on: November 02, 2009, 07:13:39 AM »
I've already completed all of Simons "Test" levels, haha

Me too. :D "Up, up, up and all away!" is a very nice puzzle btw.

Re. ropers: I say they're worth including, primarily for the reason geoo mentioned (instant bridge to counteract diggers). It does concern me a bit though that some of the new skills will put more emphasis on micromanaging individual lemmings rather than the wider group (walker and jumper do this too). At the end of the day it's up to the level designer though.


As I mentioned in another thread, I'm busy for the next week, so I won't be at the next game. Assuming there will be one this week :P

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #53 on: November 02, 2009, 11:30:49 PM »
geoo:
About L2 styles in L++... this might be something for the next semester break if there is good documentation available, heh.

We could try a skype conference during a networking session if everybody has it available. You said you do, I also do; we could ask around who else does. The best part will be hearing other people rant and shout. :-D
That comment wasn't actually meant really seriously, but if you're interested, Mindless wrote an open-source (de)compressor, and the format is also documented: http://camanis.net/lemmings/tools.php
I'd only need to find out about how the trigger areas are defined. I don't know about the format L++ uses for the style data internally, perhaps the code I wrote for PCL2ED could be adapted.

I'm perfectly fine with the date, I hope we won't be the only ones on then. ;) I'd also be up on Skype.
And again, thanks to Mindless for setting up a server. :thumbsup:

Offline Isu

  • Posts: 693
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #54 on: November 03, 2009, 03:16:51 AM »
Maybe Wednesday, November 4th at 20:00 UTC is an okay time for the next playtest?

I'm okay with that. Will probably join if I'm not sleeping.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #55 on: November 03, 2009, 09:22:03 AM »
I'd only need to find out about how the trigger areas are defined.

I've been looking at the data in the L2OB section of all 12 styles when I wanted to learn more about the file formats.  I still can't fully explain all the data in there (especially since I haven't even tried messing around with the values and see what happens yet), but I think I've already gained a little more insight beyond what you have documented, though still not a lot when it comes to trigger areas.  Perhaps you can PM me with what is still confusing you, and I can either answer it with what I know, or figure out a good way to experiment and find out the answer.

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #56 on: November 04, 2009, 09:06:43 PM »
Had a good hour on L++ multiplayer. Mostly One-on-one action with geoo.

There was a problem I encountered during the multiplayer game: When a platformer to the wall is complete the lemming would turn around before the next skill would be assigned at the end of the platform. Any possibility that the problem could be fixed?

(I don't think what I said is very clear, I'm not good at English. :()
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #57 on: November 04, 2009, 09:16:58 PM »
I think I know what you mean. Builders (and platformers as well it seems) turn around as soon as they reach the wall, instead of building a couple of bricks into the wall and then turning like they do in the original game. This makes it very difficult to build into the wall and then bash - you have to time the builder perfectly so that it just reaches the wall with the 12th brick. I could see that being annoying...

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #58 on: November 04, 2009, 11:23:51 PM »
I was at university before I joined over an hour late <_<; But I got to play some great games as well. Mindless' server does a very fine job. :-)

I've altered builder/platformer logic slightly because I didn't want them to build through some very thin walls. Assigning a skill safely after building/platforming to a wall is more important, however; I will certainly look into this.

Other current bugs are: Space toggles the ready button even when the chat textbox is active, and the server doesn't send the active map to a newly connected client.

-- Simon

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #59 on: November 06, 2009, 07:41:01 PM »
I was thinking of a new multiplayer lemmings level, called "Hell in a cell" but I'm not very good at designing levels from the L++ editor, so I'll have to let someone else do this. :(

So I decided to use MS paint to come up with a level plan (I'm a good pixel artist, count on me ;). The border would look like a cell made of terrain, and the exit is above a steel block. For multiplayer purposes each team can have a different cell to start with, and then an exit (Same or different) on top. We could even try wrapping around the map horizontally and/or vertically.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #60 on: November 06, 2009, 11:27:38 PM »
If it's not too big, you could build it in Lemmix and copy the file over to L++.

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #61 on: November 07, 2009, 06:21:54 AM »
If it's not too big, you could build it in Lemmix and copy the file over to L++.

Good idea! :thumbsup: I'll do that right now.

Edit: This is not how I wanted this level to turn out at the moment: The L++ editor's level measure in pixels is not exact, which calls for problematic wrapping. The slow level size button counts in 10 pixels, not 1 or 2. I wish that at least one of the following would happen:

* Get Simon to fix the level measure set: Either by letting us fill boxes or by fixing the slow buttons.

* I could get a text document of the level by converting it from .lvl to .txt

The second bullet point makes me ask a question: How can you convert a .lvl file in a .txt document?

Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #62 on: November 07, 2009, 07:34:24 AM »
Quote
The L++ editor's level measure in pixels is not exact, which calls for problematic wrapping. The slow level size button counts in 10 pixels, not 1 or 2.

I though I mentioned this to Simon already. :-\


Quote
How can you convert a .lvl file in a .txt document?

Use "save as" in the L++ editor.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #63 on: November 07, 2009, 09:28:59 AM »
Yeah, both points hamper the usability. The ways to save a level are very unclear about the file extension and file content that you receive. This is a relict from when L++ could only open its own format. At this time, use Save As, yep.

The buttons that don't allow smaller adjustments than 10 are a case of "program wants to be smarter than the user" again, which is bad. :-D Will fix.

And I want to go through the whole topic sometime again. I know of at least one post by Clam Spammer that I didn't answer properly to...

-- Simon

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #64 on: November 07, 2009, 10:13:24 AM »
Quote from: Clam Spammer on 2009-11-07 01:34:24
Quote
Quote from: minimac
Quote
The L++ editor's level measure in pixels is not exact, which calls for problematic wrapping. The slow level size button counts in 10 pixels, not 1 or 2.
I though I mentioned this to Simon already.
Well, I didn't see that, but when you think about it, sometimes it's good for other people to realise just by looking at the problem in the editor.

Quote from: Clam Spammer on 2009-11-07 01:34:24
Quote
Quote from: minimac
Quote
How can you convert a .lvl file in a .txt document?
Use "save as" in the L++ editor.
I did get the level saved, and I've somehow made a .txt.txt file! See below for the download. It's a 2-player version ofthe level.

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:21:26 PM by Prob Lem »
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline weirdybeardy

  • Posts: 153
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #65 on: November 07, 2009, 01:10:49 PM »
I still haven't managed to get my copy of L++ to work...  :( I guess while I'm not able to play, I can maintain my delusions of being able to thrash you all!  :P I might try to install it again soon. In the meantime, Lemmings 2 custom level building has got its hooks in me...
My projects:

Lemmings in Weirdyland (NeoLemmix):
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=6135.0

My levels for Lemmings 2 The Tribes can be found here:
https://www.lemmingsforums.net/index.php?topic=990.0

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #66 on: November 07, 2009, 07:11:52 PM »
Who's hosting the next one, and when?  I'd like to try a multiplayer game sometime, so if anyone can open up tonight, do something such as post here or send a PM.  It's currently 13:11 where I live.
(most people around here use AM/PM, but I prefer 24 hour for some reason, in AM/PM it's 1:11 PM)

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #67 on: November 08, 2009, 05:36:13 AM »
Sunday night is MY party night. I hope you downloaded the 1/11 edition of L++. I was thinking about playing a game today at around 18:00 UTC. Would you agree? (Apologies to Clam and ISteve, they'll be sleeping at this time but I like early games, rather than later. That way, I can play for longer! :P) I predict that we can get 6 players to tag along here.

Note: Remember to type: flux.camanis.net in the IP server box to get yourself in.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #68 on: November 08, 2009, 01:39:35 PM »
18:00 UTC today (Sunday) sounds nice. Will drop by for some games!

I fixed some bugs of the -11-01 version today, and the newest version is -11-08 (L++ download link as usual).

The new version is still compatible with the former version, so people using any will be able to play on the server toether. Mindless does not have to upgrade his server, as no changes have been made to the server application.

Changelist:
- [Space] key doesn't toggle "ready" while typing,
- a new button that always connects to Mindless' server (flux.camanis.net),
- the editor always saves levels as .TXT files.

-- Simon

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2009, 02:11:36 PM »
Good job putting up your 50th post Simon!

Just to let you know I keep typing flux.camanis.net into my address bar. It comes up with this message:

Quote from: flux.camanis.net
GREETINGS PROFESSOR FALKEN.

SHALL WE PLAY A GAME?

 08:03:23 up 10 days,  6:23,  0 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00

I thought the "connect to" button was there with it. :XD:

And also, I remember the only banned user (so far) from the Lemmings forum ADmiral. He made some decent test levels on the L++ program I've just noticed. Not only his language is quite bad, but his levels are quite good.

I am currently a WWE fan, which is why I put "Hell in a Cell" up. I may put steel cage up as well.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2009, 11:05:05 PM »
Is anyone here available within the next five hours?

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2009, 11:35:26 PM »
Sure, I'm up for a game. I'll download the new version now.

(edit: got it.)

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #72 on: November 09, 2009, 01:22:33 AM »
In the ONML multiplayer level, "I want it all" the lemmings from both trapdoors start going right.  The lemmings on the right should default to heading left, so this needs fixed.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #73 on: November 09, 2009, 03:22:25 AM »
I got a bunch of replays from tonight's epic game!  It was really fun!

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #74 on: November 09, 2009, 03:41:33 AM »
Yeah, so we ran out of fun 3p maps and started messing around on single-player levels, plus the odd 2p map as well. It's quite tricky when all the teams are going for the same exit :D

Like Dullstar mentioned, the trapdoors send you the wrong way at times, including on the original 2p levels. Which is a tad annoying :(

Other things I noticed while playing today:
  • When you enter the network, the currently selected level should be displayed. Currently, someone has to select a map after a player enters the room before a game can start.
  • The "repeat" maps from Lemmings are missing. Some of the "20 of each" levels might be fun for SP. Also, exploders could switch to knockback mode when you choose one of these levels in MP.
  • Placing blockers close together sometimes makes lemmings pass through all of them. This makes crowd control difficult at times.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #75 on: November 09, 2009, 04:08:52 AM »
Also, what about a little music?  Put in the .mod files from the original game, and when you start a level, it will randomly pick a song, except in the case of levels that specifically specify one.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #76 on: November 09, 2009, 06:06:22 AM »
My replays from today are all broken. They're missing level data. :(


EDIT: okay, got some of them back now. I had to copy/paste in the level data.

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #77 on: November 09, 2009, 06:31:16 AM »
3p maps are really hard to make, just because it's hard to make a map fair with three people; keeping symmetry and all that. The wrapping does really help with that, though.

I tried my hand at one, I think it turned out alright but it needs testing of course.
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #78 on: November 09, 2009, 06:03:06 PM »
I've made a list of how many users have played L++:

Simon
geoo
Dullstar
Clam Spammer
minimac (Signs up as "Liam" on the game screen)
Isu (Signs up as "Iain" on the game screen)
Insane Steve
Adam

Well, we have 8 at the moment which is great, and my WWE pack introduces the first ever 8-player (and 7-player, why is that file not there?) level created. Maybe on Saturday night. If everyone comes in at 8:30PM UTC on 14th November, we could have our first ever 8-player game of lemmings!
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #79 on: November 09, 2009, 08:19:55 PM »
There's also Dragonslover (signs in as "Dragon") and Peter.


I wonder if it would be possible to add support for "x-player" levels, where you build one segment of the map, and any number of players can use the map with one segment per player, and world wrapping as appropriate. I don't know how you'd work out who gets which exit, but maybe you could default to the farthest from the entrance for each player, and perhaps even choose which one (in terms of the number of segments between entrance and exit) in the game room before playing.

Maybe sometime in the future we could add some more customisable options, like the ability to choose a tileset (including L2 tribes) for your entrances and exits in MP, or even make your own.


A couple more thoughts:
  • Could you add room for slightly longer names? Currently I show up as "Clam Spamm".
  • It might be a good idea to stop blockers from turning jumpers. At present, you need to time the jumper very well, and in some cases you can't jump out at all. In L3 it's very easy to jump a blocker.
  • Maybe ad support for multiple entrances per player. At the moment, it gives each player one trapdoor and removes the others. Ideally the game would be able to handle any number of players with any number of entrances and exits.
  • Add the option to "kick" a player if they aren't responding and everyone else is ready to start.


And remember, now that we have a server, you can connect at any time and see if anyone is on. You'll find me there if you connect right now ;)

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #80 on: November 09, 2009, 10:50:03 PM »
We've got a nice little session going now, if anyone's interested.  ;)

(edit: it's over now :()


The new server system is great. If you're at all in the mood for a game, be sure to jump on the server and see if anyone's online. You never know who might show up...

And on that note, another suggestion: some sort of alert when a player comes online and you're working in another window. In Windows XP (at least on mine), the taskbar button flashes orange on some programs when something requires your attention. I have no idea what you call that, (edit: OK, it's called "taskbar button flashing". Seems logical enough) but it would be nice :)

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #81 on: November 10, 2009, 02:45:48 AM »
How about a Firefox plugin that plays a noise every time someone goes online?

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #82 on: November 10, 2009, 03:11:34 AM »
Is anyone available at the moment?  If so, I am waiting for opponents on the main server.

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #83 on: November 10, 2009, 04:20:58 AM »
We have 3 now, but there's a lot better choice in 4p maps -- if anyone's on and wants to play, that'd be awesome
 :)
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #84 on: November 10, 2009, 04:51:28 AM »
Tommorow at 17, maybe (locally)?  Can anyone do that?

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #85 on: November 10, 2009, 04:53:22 AM »
Tommorow at 17, maybe (locally)?  Can anyone do that?

We're still on if you still want to play  :P
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #86 on: November 10, 2009, 10:03:29 AM »
How about a Firefox plugin that plays a noise every time someone goes online?

That gives me another idea. You could have a button in the MP room that plays the "Let's Go!" sound. That way, you can just leave the speakers on and go away from the computer while you're waiting.

By the way, I noticed the "flip" option in the editor isn't working correctly - it rotates the object instead. I thought it worked properly in the original version...

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #87 on: November 10, 2009, 10:08:09 AM »
If anyone wants to rack up some cheap wins against me I'm waiting in the L++ lobby

people who played me can vouch for me being a softer opponent than usual

weeeeeeeee
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #88 on: November 10, 2009, 10:33:50 PM »
Steve, you could join the game right now, I think we might be waiting for a fourth player!

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #89 on: November 11, 2009, 02:37:02 AM »
I've made a list of how many users have played L++:

Simon
geoo
Dullstar
Clam Spammer
minimac (Signs up as "Liam" on the game screen)
Isu (Signs up as "Iain" on the game screen)
Insane Steve
Adam

Well, we have 8 at the moment which is great, and my WWE pack introduces the first ever 8-player (and 7-player, why is that file not there?) level created. Maybe on Saturday night. If everyone comes in at 8:30PM UTC on 14th November, we could have our first ever 8-player game of lemmings!

Send me a PM, if I'm on the computer, I should get it fast with Firefox addons to notify me.
I'd love to participate, minimac

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #90 on: November 11, 2009, 03:02:06 AM »
Incredibly, it seems that the funnest level out there so far is "Experimental: Flinging", with 4 or more players on the 2P map. It's quick, mindless and spectacular. My goal is to make a level that's as fun as this one.



Found another problem today: the nuke. With knockback explosions (heck, even without them) this is extremely disruptive. One player can destroy the whole contest very easily. I suggest the nuke be disabled until one player has an unassailable lead. For situations where this results in an unresolvable stalemate (eg. only blockers left), let the players launch the nuke by all pressing the button at once.

And another random thought: how about hotkeys to move the view to your entrance or exit?

Offline Mindless

  • Posts: 719
  • Inactive - may respond to PM.
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #91 on: November 11, 2009, 03:40:24 AM »
And another random thought: how about hotkeys to move the view to your entrance or exit?

I second that suggestion.  I find myself losing my entrance and exit often. :(  I couldn't think of a good solution, but I think that would solve it. :D

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #92 on: November 11, 2009, 05:45:40 PM »
I've made a list of how many users have played L++:

Simon
geoo
Dullstar
Clam Spammer
minimac (Signs up as "Liam" on the game screen)
Isu (Signs up as "Iain" on the game screen)
Insane Steve
Adam

Well, we have 8 at the moment which is great, and my WWE pack introduces the first ever 8-player (and 7-player, why is that file not there?) level created. Maybe on Saturday night. If everyone comes in at 8:30PM UTC on 14th November, we could have our first ever 8-player game of lemmings!

Send me a PM, if I'm on the computer, I should get it fast with Firefox addons to notify me.
I'd love to participate, minimac

It's gonna be difficult playing against you on a weekday unfortunately, because you have school. What time do you come home?

Actually, I have an idea. We should view the stats of people's profile. Here's mine to give you an idea as to what I'm saying. I am on a school day between 8:35am and 3:20pm, although I am permitted to come home an hour earlier on Wednesdays and Thursdays.
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline DragonsLover

  • Posts: 1234
  • Do you want fire?
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #93 on: November 12, 2009, 12:38:40 AM »
Ow... it's so bad that my time doesn't suit with you. I'm generally available from 22:00 UTC to 7:00 UTC approximately. But I suppose you're sleeping during that time, aren't you? :-[
I like dragons! They're the center of my life! I'll never forget them...

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #94 on: November 12, 2009, 09:02:03 AM »
Those times suit me very nicely. But yeah, don't expect to see too many online then...


I just realised another thing that bugs me in this game. In DOS Lemmings, a basher on a builder's bridge would always break through it. In L++ as it is now, there's a spot at the back of each step where this doesn't work. And in the middle of a MP battle, you certainly don't have the time to be worrying about pixel-precision moves.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #95 on: November 14, 2009, 12:12:27 AM »
I've made a list of how many users have played L++:

Simon
geoo
Dullstar
Clam Spammer
minimac (Signs up as "Liam" on the game screen)
Isu (Signs up as "Iain" on the game screen)
Insane Steve
Adam

Well, we have 8 at the moment which is great, and my WWE pack introduces the first ever 8-player (and 7-player, why is that file not there?) level created. Maybe on Saturday night. If everyone comes in at 8:30PM UTC on 14th November, we could have our first ever 8-player game of lemmings!

Send me a PM, if I'm on the computer, I should get it fast with Firefox addons to notify me.
I'd love to participate, minimac

It's gonna be difficult playing against you on a weekday unfortunately, because you have school. What time do you come home?

Actually, I have an idea. We should view the stats of people's profile. Here's mine to give you an idea as to what I'm saying. I am on a school day between 8:35am and 3:20pm, although I am permitted to come home an hour earlier on Wednesdays and Thursdays.

Hey, I'm open now until Monday.  I will not do a game before school, just because I already have to get up too early as it is, but normally I'm home by 3:00 (15:00).

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #96 on: November 14, 2009, 04:57:17 PM »
I think we need another game mode.  I could imagine some pretty good ideas for co-op levels...  which could be done even better if each player was given a different skillset.  For example, a level where you have to have one lemming climb a wall, have a lemming from the other team bash so the climber can get where it needs to go, then mine down with the climber.  To do perfectly, it would be required to allow giving different players different skillsets, although a workaround could be created.

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #97 on: November 14, 2009, 06:22:11 PM »
I just realised another thing that bugs me in this game. In DOS Lemmings, a basher on a builder's bridge would always break through it. In L++ as it is now, there's a spot at the back of each step where this doesn't work. And in the middle of a MP battle, you certainly don't have the time to be worrying about pixel-precision moves.

Yea, this is huge and needs to be addressed -- I hate bashing through a bridge but not going through all the way.

Also my times are... really odd. In general you're much more likely to get a game with me on Monday-Wednesday than any other day, though.
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2009, 08:09:43 PM »
Now I can come on more - I grabbed the Linux version so now I can play regardless of which OS I'm booted into.

Anyways, waiting for opponents

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2009, 09:25:16 PM »
There's a session going on right now, in need of more players!

EDIT:  It's over now.
If you can get 3 or more players by adding me in, though, I'll join back in.  It gets boring with only two players.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2009, 11:33:02 PM »
It's funny... usually about now is the peak time for MP Lemmings. Yeah, 1v1 is a test of skill and all that, but having more players just adds so much... more action, more opportunities to steal lemmings, and more lag. :( Worth it though.


I just had another random thought - would it be possible to randomly generate a map from a set of rules, and end up with something that's playable at all? I think it would be awesome (especially for 1v1 games) to get a fresh map each time and have to invent strategies on the fly.

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1417
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #101 on: November 14, 2009, 11:38:21 PM »
i would like to see a 8 player game
ON VIDEO! :)

Offline GuyPerfect

  • Posts: 363
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #102 on: November 14, 2009, 11:39:09 PM »
I just had another random thought - would it be possible to randomly generate a map from a set of rules, and end up with something that's playable at all? I think it would be awesome (especially for 1v1 games) to get a fresh map each time and have to invent strategies on the fly.

That SO sounds like something I could do. We should look into this.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #103 on: November 15, 2009, 09:51:54 AM »
I just had another random thought - would it be possible to randomly generate a map from a set of rules, and end up with something that's playable at all? I think it would be awesome (especially for 1v1 games) to get a fresh map each time and have to invent strategies on the fly.

Could be interesting but might take a few iterations of refinement before we come up with a good system of doing so.  I don't know the implementation details of L++, but it would be easier and more flexible for this, if it can take arbitrary bitmaps for level terrain, instead of having to stick with it being constructed out of preset terrain pieces.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #104 on: November 15, 2009, 09:20:07 PM »
Quote
it can take arbitrary bitmaps for level terrain

Hey, I didn't even consider that when I posted earlier. :D In that case, you could have a Worms-style map generator and just make one big (symmetrical) terrain piece that covers the whole map, and maybe sprinkle on a few other pieces here and there.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #105 on: November 15, 2009, 10:54:12 PM »
i would like to see a 8 player game
ON VIDEO! :)

Giga, if you want this, just download L++ and use the connect to the server option in network games.  Then you can participate in them and save replays.

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #106 on: November 16, 2009, 06:20:45 AM »
Clam and I are on right now, if more people want to play that'd be awesome
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #107 on: November 16, 2009, 06:26:36 AM »
I noticed a problem with the editor just now. Sometimes when you edit a .LVL file, some terrain pieces appear as dark (erased), even though they aren't dark when you play the level. But if you then save it and play, the objects are dark. I noticed this problem in two of the original 2P levels, "Take what you can, when you can" and "Graffiti".



A very good suggestion came up during today's session, and that was to have an option to make all lemmings floaters automatically. This leads me to another idea - you could have a bunch of optional game modes, like:

  • All lemmings are climbers and/or floaters
  • No splats (lemmings can survive any fall) - this would mean you could have some epic levels with jumpers and toroidal wrap...
  • Hero - only one lemming per player can be assigned skills (if it dies, you can choose another one, or maybe it could "respawn" at your entrance)


Yep, I'm full of random ideas just lately :D

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1417
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #108 on: November 16, 2009, 02:32:01 PM »
But when i down load it dosen't have levels or sprits

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #109 on: November 16, 2009, 04:01:28 PM »
Giga, did you try what I suggested earlier about this problem?

-- Simon

Offline Yawg

  • Posts: 126
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #110 on: November 16, 2009, 11:55:29 PM »
I'd like to give this multi player stuff a try. Never had the chance with original lemmings when I was kid. Anyone want to play now?
Finally released my 6th level pack! Ten levels intended to push you quite a bit beyond the expectations of Mayhem/Havoc; check 'em out and let me know what you think!

http://camanis.net/lemmings/levelpacks.php?info&pack=174

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #111 on: November 17, 2009, 03:53:17 AM »
Yawg:  This Saturday, maybe?  Send me a PM with what times you can do it.  I can probably work out the time zones on my own.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #112 on: November 17, 2009, 03:54:04 AM »
But when i down load it dosen't have levels or sprits

Giga, did you extract it from the, uh, I forget if it was a .rar or a .zip.  Either way, did you extract it?

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #113 on: November 17, 2009, 06:25:00 AM »
you could have a bunch of optional game modes, like:

  • All lemmings are climbers and/or floaters
  • No splats (lemmings can survive any fall) - this would mean you could have some epic levels with jumpers and toroidal wrap...
  • Hero - only one lemming per player can be assigned skills (if it dies, you can choose another one, or maybe it could "respawn" at your entrance)
  • Antimatter Lemmings: When two lemmings from different teams touch, they both explode.



 :D

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #114 on: November 17, 2009, 07:56:23 AM »
I saved a replay today with an illegal character (colon) in the filename, and now I've got a blank file that I can't open or even delete :-\

By the way, I have fixed, text-file versions of the original 2P levels (except "Graffiti", which I couldn't fix for reasons mentioned earlier). If anyone's interested ;)

Offline Minim

  • Posts: 1724
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #115 on: November 17, 2009, 06:50:00 PM »
By the way, I have fixed, text-file versions of the original 2P levels (except "Graffiti", which I couldn't fix for reasons mentioned earlier). If anyone's interested ;)

Yeah, why not do that? I'm interested by it.

I noticed something cool. On a 2 lemming level when each one fall close enough so that one lemming is given the Exploder2 skill to send the other flying on an infinitely tall landscape, the other lemming will eventually fall upwards. Kinda reminds me of that clip I watched earlier which was all about upward lightning.

Edit: added that link
Level Solving Contest creator. Anybody bored and looking for a different challenge? Try these levels!

Neolemmix: #1 #4 #5 #6
Lix: #2  #7
Both Engines: #3

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #116 on: November 17, 2009, 08:11:56 PM »
By "fixed", I mean they are balanced in the sense that neither player gets an advantage from the entrance directions. For cooperation-style levels, I made both trapdoors send lemmings towards the exit rather than one each way. I don't know whether levels with one central trapdoor are supposed to send you towards your exit or your opponent's - either way it's fair, but one way or the other might make for a better contest.

I fixed "Graffiti" as well - turns out it wasn't that difficult after all.

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #117 on: November 18, 2009, 12:02:33 AM »
Losing by 70 about 10 times in a row (no exaggeration) on your own map is just not fun
 :-[

EDIT: I immediately win on said map after I post this

lol
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1417
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #118 on: November 18, 2009, 12:58:30 AM »
What do i do after extracing it

Offline Mindless

  • Posts: 719
  • Inactive - may respond to PM.
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #119 on: November 18, 2009, 01:40:38 AM »
Losing by 70 about 10 times in a row (no exaggeration) on your own map is just not fun
 :-[

Hmm.  I also don't enjoy losing as often as I tend to.  There ought to be some way to balance gameplay based on the differences in player skill a bit more -- perhaps a handicap of some sort.  I can't think of a good system off the top of my head though.  Ideas anybody?
(This would be low on the TODO list, which I really shouldn't add to without offering to help. :P)

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #120 on: November 18, 2009, 02:15:30 AM »
I lose a lot, but I don't complain about it.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #121 on: November 18, 2009, 02:20:09 AM »
How about just a percentage off each skill count? (Round up the total of course, so you don't end up with 0 of a crucial skill.)

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #122 on: November 18, 2009, 02:23:32 AM »
I lose a lot, but I don't complain about it.

no you just nuke your group and make strategy moot
 :P
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #123 on: November 18, 2009, 03:58:40 AM »
How about just a percentage off each skill count? (Round up the total of course, so you don't end up with 0 of a crucial skill.)

Perhaps it'd be better to do the reverse of giving the less proficient player more skills or something?  A reverse handicap giving the less proficient player a better change to win.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #124 on: November 18, 2009, 04:04:06 AM »
That would be better, I think. :)

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #125 on: November 24, 2009, 06:42:11 AM »
if anyone wants to have a game I'm online

also drunk so if you're less experienced then you probably have a solid chance against me

if you're Clam Spammer or geoo then you'll crush me anyways even without the drunk  :P
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline Mindless

  • Posts: 719
  • Inactive - may respond to PM.
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #126 on: November 25, 2009, 06:14:12 PM »
flux.camanis.net is down for a few days; the server was running smoothly for weeks, and then it died 12 hours after I left for Thanksgiving break. :(

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #127 on: November 25, 2009, 11:13:23 PM »
Odd.  How long was that on, anyway?

Offline Mindless

  • Posts: 719
  • Inactive - may respond to PM.
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #128 on: November 26, 2009, 07:35:31 AM »
It seems to have revived itself.  I guess its internet connection just took a short vacation?

Odd.  How long was that on, anyway?

Current uptime is 13 days, 46 min.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #129 on: November 30, 2009, 04:12:57 AM »
I know I said I'd stay away from this, but I'm really bored right now. So I built a couple of new levels - blockerless, of course. ;)

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #130 on: December 13, 2009, 07:00:58 PM »
I'm sorry I let this drift for some time now. I hope to have time available after christmas to fix bugs and make a new version. At this time, I'm compiling a list of bugs.

Thanks for the recently posted levels everyone - the game has become better quite a bit with all the user input. :-)

-- Simon

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #131 on: December 20, 2009, 08:25:13 PM »
It would be nice if there was a message when you log in to the server when a game is in progress. Currently it just looks like the other players are just doing nothing unless they send a chat message - which isn't always feasible during a busy game. We had an unfortunate moment yesterday when a new player came and left (and this person isn't on the forums AFAIK), possibly as a result of this.

Btw I just read your bug list Simon. That last one is awesome (jumpers can be used to escape a fire trap :D)

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #132 on: December 21, 2009, 05:50:52 PM »
I thought you were staying away from this.  Something I must is, can does a Mac version exist in some way?  Even if it would require compiling source, it would be quite nice to have.  I suppose, though, I could possibly run it in a virtual machine if needed; I already got one set up with Mr. K's help so I can play Star Wars Galactic Battlefield, so I would imagine L++ should work.  I'd have to test it, though.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #133 on: December 21, 2009, 06:07:24 PM »
I don't have access to a mac, but you should be able to compile from source. You need the L++ source archive, Allegro, and Enet. Install both libraries as described on their homepages. Then run the makefile in the L++ src/ folder.

-- Simon

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #134 on: December 21, 2009, 06:09:47 PM »
Are those all free, or am I best off just sticking with virtual machines?

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #135 on: December 21, 2009, 06:14:52 PM »
All of them are free software. Use a VM if you don't want to compile yourself, and if the Linux version won't run natively.

-- Simon

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #136 on: December 21, 2009, 10:18:37 PM »
A linux version *might* natively run?  Is that for real?

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #137 on: December 21, 2009, 10:44:00 PM »
Dullstar: I don't know. I've never used Macs, I merely know that Mac OSes are Unix variants. Maybe the 32-bit x86 Linux version from my website works, maybe not, try and see. If it doesn't work, compile the game yourself. The necessary libraries are available for your system. It'd also be a nice thing to know in general if L++ compiles with no problems on a Mac.

Clam Spammer: The multiplayer management is still in a basic stage. The ideal thing would be all of the following - multiple games next to each other on the same server, the possibility to select observer mode instead of a participating color, and the ability to observe a game when you enter it late.

I hope to get some bugfixing done over the holidays, but I can't tell if I'll work on one of the things above right then. They're on the wishlist.

-- Simon

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #138 on: December 22, 2009, 08:00:12 AM »
I thought you were staying away from this.

umm... yeah.

 :-\



Quote
I already got one set up with Mr. K's help so I can play Star Wars Galactic Battlefield

Hey, I have that game :D (I presume you mean Galactic Battlegrounds)

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1417
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #139 on: December 22, 2009, 11:48:34 PM »
Can't you creat a instal file of an easyer way to set it up?
and heres a few sagestions

backround menu
customised hair and clothes
import grafics for tilesets
L++ menu logo
music of chioce for multiplayer

i'll put it on the wish list

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #140 on: December 23, 2009, 07:25:59 AM »

Hey, I have that game :D (I presume you mean Galactic Battlegrounds)

I always get it confused.  I'd like to see what the base game is like, but for whatever reason we only have the install CD for the base game, so I can only play the Clone Campaigns version (not as if that's a problem, but I'd like to see the original one in action sometime).  On topic, I will try that with the Linux version and/or source code sometime.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #141 on: December 23, 2009, 06:59:04 PM »
Can't you creat a instal file of an easyer way to set it up?

I prefer not having install files, and just downloading the file you use to run it.  Then you just download the program and run it. With installers, you download the installer, then you have to install it, and of course, the installer has to be different for every operating system.  It's really not difficult to set up.  Are you sere you're downloading the version for your operating system?  If that's your problem, I'm going to laugh.

Offline Mindless

  • Posts: 719
  • Inactive - may respond to PM.
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #142 on: December 24, 2009, 02:10:25 AM »
Server has gone missing again... always while I'm away from it ._.
Hopefully it'll be back in a couple of days. *crosses fingers*

Edit: fixed a couple days ago; sorry about the downtime.

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #143 on: January 02, 2010, 11:49:45 PM »
I will have to compile from source.  I'll get to that later.  Anyways, I have a suggestion, but I know that at the best it would be very hard to implement.  How about AI opponents?  If you do this, I know it will probably take a while.  With a game like Lemmings, I'd be curious to know if it would even work.

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #144 on: January 03, 2010, 04:31:18 AM »
What happened to this? Games don't run as often as they used to.
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #145 on: January 31, 2010, 07:03:00 PM »
Hi all, looking forward to doing some Multiplayer lemmings with you guys, but notice I cannot play the game right away.   Looking through the forum I see a guy named Giga saying something about 'not seeing sprites'
I think he should have went into more detail to explain his problem as this is probably what I am seeing also.

:-   The game does open, I get the screen asking for my name, then the menu for single / multi etc
Though next screen is the options to select a level.   Network/orig/test  are unclickable buttons, so I cannot select anything to play.  The only buttons you can click on this screen is the Edit button and the back button.

So , tried extracting again, same issues.
Tried on another computer.  Works great.

Issue appears to be unplayable on Win Vista
Other computer = WIN XP

Thanks.

(well done on pushing multiplayer lemmings to the limits here Simon, impressive!)

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #146 on: January 31, 2010, 08:55:38 PM »
Hi, thanks for the good description!

Vista, okay... unfortunately I don't have a machine with Vista to test it myself. From what I've read about it on the net, I believe the problem might come from the inaccessibility of certain directories under Vista.

L++ tries to access files inside its own subdirectories when it loads the sprites, levels or configuration files, or when it writes changes to them. network/, orig/ and test/ are subdirectories of (lpp's own folder)/levels/. This approach was clean under older versions of Windows -- one could uninstall the game by removing its directory, and everything was gone. It works under Unix variants as well, even if it's not the standard behavior there as far as I know.

I haven't read enough of how Vista handles these situations to give a good answer. I will think about a future-proof solution when this semester's exams are over in some weeks. Until then, maybe it works to put a copy of the L++ folder directly into the Vista virtual store?

-- Simon

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #147 on: January 31, 2010, 09:33:46 PM »
Ah , I partially see where you are going with that.   So yes, I have tried copying L++ into the virtual folder, and also tried all compatibility modes / making sure its ran on administrator etc, but to no avail yet.

  I'll keep messing with things incase I find a way to get it going on vista, but for now at least I can play it on my XP laptop.

Thanks :)

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #148 on: February 01, 2010, 02:52:08 AM »
Me and my brother will play quite often, hope to see you guys on!

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #149 on: February 01, 2010, 08:00:19 AM »
I'm definitely up for some games whenever people want to play  :thumbsup:
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #150 on: February 01, 2010, 12:52:27 PM »
Vista, okay... unfortunately I don't have a machine with Vista to test it myself. From what I've read about it on the net, I believe the problem might come from the inaccessibility of certain directories under Vista.

L++ tries to access files inside its own subdirectories when it loads the sprites, levels or configuration files, or when it writes changes to them. network/, orig/ and test/ are subdirectories of (lpp's own folder)/levels/.<snip>

I've run other games on Vista that reads/writes files under their own subdirectories and they work fine, so I'm a little skeptical that's the cause here.  Moreover, if it's indeed the cause, then wouldn't simply running the program elevated take care of it?  (To run a program elevated in Vista, right-click on the icon and select "Run As Administrator", then click OK on the UAC prompt that pops up.  I think there are also compatibility settings you can set to always run the program elevated.)

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #151 on: February 01, 2010, 01:18:47 PM »
Yes, after RubiX trying all these tips, it still did not work for him. Now I believe it's a bug of L++ itself, especially as you can run other such games.

-- Simon

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #152 on: February 01, 2010, 05:00:22 PM »
Yea, tried lots of different tests I could think of to get it running on vista.  I'm just sticking with playing it on my laptop for now, no big deal, it plays nice on it.

InsaneSteve, and anyone else up for it, I (and probably my brother) will be on at 9pm PST tonight (live near Vancouver BC Canada) If you are able to join at this time, would be great.

ICQ:       7174474
MSN:      rubix01 AT gmail.com (trying to save myself from the address being picked up by spambots)

Seeya

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #153 on: February 02, 2010, 02:11:56 AM »
Hi all, looking forward to doing some Multiplayer lemmings with you guys, but notice I cannot play the game right away.   Looking through the forum I see a guy named Giga saying something about 'not seeing sprites'
I think he should have went into more detail to explain his problem as this is probably what I am seeing also.

:-   The game does open, I get the screen asking for my name, then the menu for single / multi etc
Though next screen is the options to select a level.   Network/orig/test  are unclickable buttons, so I cannot select anything to play.  The only buttons you can click on this screen is the Edit button and the back button.

So , tried extracting again, same issues.
Tried on another computer.  Works great.

Issue appears to be unplayable on Win Vista
Other computer = WIN XP

Thanks.

Well, I've tried it on a Vista computer, extracting the contents of the zip file from http://ewigeliste.ew.funpic.de/lpp/download.php to c:\lpp.  It's working fine for me, I don't even need to elevate.  I've also tried to see what happens if I remove the subfolders under levels, or changing their access permissions (ie. deny write access or list directory access, etc.), and so forth.  None of them replicate a situation where the buttons show up but do not respond to clicking.  Either the buttons aren't there at all (eg. when I remove the folders, or deny "list directory" access to the levels folder), or clicking on them leads to an empty listing consistent with the restricted permissions.

I've even tried full-screen vs. windowed and encountered no differences.

I could try other things but at this point, I think you'll need Simon to add some additional debugging output in his code to get a better idea of where/how it's failing specifically on RubiX's Vista computer.  It may very well have nothing to do with Vista per se (though it's always a good idea to be suspicious of it :P).

Actually, one more idea: one thing that's worth checking on the bad computer is to see if you have a copy of alleg42.dll (or maybe just alleg<something>.dll) in c:\windows\system32 folder or the like.  The problem being that the copy in the windows system folders may be overriding the one in the lpp folder (well I'm not 100% sure to be honest, it may depend on exactly how the game loads the DLL), and if it's an older (or possibly newer, if they did a poor job keeping Allegro backward compatible with older versions) version it could cause things to not work in the game.

If you found no such file in the windows system folder, then it's probably something else.  If you do find one, don't delete it though since you may have some other programs that need it.  We can figure out what to do if that's in fact what's happening on that computer.

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #154 on: February 02, 2010, 04:17:08 AM »
Ah thanks for testing it on your own copy of vista , that really is interesting to hear it worked immediately.   Ive tried a lot of different things with no results on buttons being clickable on my desktop computer, and that's my gaming computer which I've never run into a compatibility issue until now, how odd.

I did look for anything in system32 starting with 'alle'  incase I can find that file you were mentioning, but nope, does not exist.

Thanks for your info , this has gone from what I believed was an obvious O/S compatibility issue, to likely something just on my side.  lol

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #155 on: February 02, 2010, 04:57:13 AM »
Ok, I'm on if you want to play some and it's working. I've not had problems getting it to work with Vista, but I'm not great with tech stuff so I can't give any better advice than ccexplore gave, sorry.
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #156 on: February 02, 2010, 05:37:59 PM »
Fun games last night, thanks for joining! 

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #157 on: February 03, 2010, 08:49:59 PM »
Just wondering, seeing as 2 of u guys just tried it on vista, are you running 32 or 64 bit vista O/S ?

Also, did you do more than just try run the game? The game does run for me, its changing directories to try choose a level, that is where this is not working on my vista64 desktop.

Im still fine with playing this on myXP  laptop, but would be nice to find what is going on with my main computer lol.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #158 on: February 03, 2010, 10:18:01 PM »
Also, did you do more than just try run the game? The game does run for me, its changing directories to try choose a level, that is where this is not working on my vista64 desktop.

It was pretty clear from my post that I specifically tried to repro your issue with changing directories to choose a level.  But now that you said it's Vista 64-bit, yeah, that's definitely a different platform than the 32-bit Vista that I tested on.

Unfortunately I don't think I have any 64-bit Vista computers I can access or borrow at the moment, though I might be able to try it on a 64-bit Win7 computer and see if anything bad happens.  It's still possible that something else other than the 64-bit Vista is causing your problems.

============

Incidentally, since now you mentioned it's 64-bit Vista, instead of looking in c:\windows\system32 for alleg*.dll, I need you to look in c:\windows\SysWOW64 instead.

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #159 on: February 03, 2010, 11:48:22 PM »
Ok thanks.

Yea I should have checked there myself actually, but nope, not there also.
Just did a full search through the HD for files starting with that, and it only came across an alleg file in the l++ dir.

Me and simon have been messaging each-other and we do find that its just something to do with a call to changing directories.
If I place level files into the root dir for l++  /levels/    I can see them and play them fine.

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #160 on: February 04, 2010, 12:43:01 AM »
Messing about more with some things in the /levels/ dir I have come across some very wierd things.

If I create my own folders/ subdirs such as /levels/test junk/testasdf/blah/blahblah/   
I can Put level files into that folder, run the game and click through those folders and play levels that I placed in that folder normally.

I can move up / down parent folders inside my own created folders.

So I thought, ok I'll just do a copy of all the real folders inside /levels/ and I should be able to navigate them, but nope, wouldnt let me click on them once they were put in my new folder.

 So I tried renaming the folders of /levels/orig    /levels/network   /levels/test   thinking thats got to do it, but nope, it sees the renames but I cannot click them lol.

So I did a new test, inside /levels/orig/   I made a new folder and subdirs here and placed some levels inside , nope wont go into the /levels/orig folder  as its part of the original directory structure, like it is untouchable.

So ONLY if you create your own folders coming from root /levels/    can you actually navigate anything.   Soon as you try copy file structures from the /levels//  dir into your new created folder will things not work. 

So I could make new names up for each dir and subdir and copy the level files into my own named folders and have it work my own way like this.   

 But nothing of the initial folder structure can be copied , it pretty much just locks my new folders out as soon as something is tried to be replicated into a new folder tree that Im making.

(so yea, it does appear this directory issue is only affecting Vista 64 bit, for anyone else wondering what I am doing here)

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #161 on: February 04, 2010, 03:35:09 AM »
I'm a little confused by your descriptions.  The ./levels/test/ folder for example only contains levels; there are no subfolders, so not much of a structure to speak of.  If you create a new folder under ./levels/ and then copy (don't just move, make a copy) the individual level files inside the ./levels/test/ folder into your newly created folder, can you navigate to the newly created folder or not?  What about copying just a single one of the ./levels/test/ level files into the new folder?

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #162 on: February 04, 2010, 03:46:53 AM »
Unfortunately I don't think I have any 64-bit Vista computers I can access or borrow at the moment, though I might be able to try it on a 64-bit Win7 computer and see if anything bad happens.

I did not have this problem on 64-bit Win7.  Unzipping everything into c:\lpp, I am able to navigate freely into all of the initial folder structure.

Incidentally, do you use Window to unzip or some other program?  (In all my tests I just unzipped with Windows.)

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #163 on: February 04, 2010, 04:57:58 AM »
I'm a little confused by your descriptions.  The ./levels/test/ folder for example only contains levels; there are no subfolders, so not much of a structure to speak of.  If you create a new folder under ./levels/ and then copy (don't just move, make a copy) the individual level files inside the ./levels/test/ folder into your newly created folder, can you navigate to the newly created folder or not?  What about copying just a single one of the ./levels/test/ level files into the new folder?

Yea this is seriously confusing to explain it properly hehe. 

""If you create a new folder under ./levels/ and then copy (don't just move, make a copy) the individual level files inside the ./levels/test/ folder into your newly created folder, can you navigate to the newly created folder or not?""  <--- Yes to this.  I Can navigate to it and play these levels placed inside my newly created folder. 

But If I did just copy a folder and its subdirs such as    levels/network/2player/1. Lemmings/ into my new folder named /levels/test2/   This will now fail, nothing will be clickable, not even the folder named 'test2' anymore.

example: So if I made an empty folder named /levels/test2/    and run the game, i can navigate to this folder.
If I then copied the tree of /levels/test/   and  put it in my new folder so it looks like this now
/levels/test2/test/ ,and then ran the game,  I would then not even be able to click on anything to navigate it, like I could before doing a copy of that 'test' folder.     

Very strange.


Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #164 on: February 04, 2010, 05:00:59 AM »
Unfortunately I don't think I have any 64-bit Vista computers I can access or borrow at the moment, though I might be able to try it on a 64-bit Win7 computer and see if anything bad happens.

I did not have this problem on 64-bit Win7.  Unzipping everything into c:\lpp, I am able to navigate freely into all of the initial folder structure.

Incidentally, do you use Window to unzip or some other program?  (In all my tests I just unzipped with Windows.)

I use winrar actually for my compressed files.  Just incase this did have something to do with the extraction, i'll just try doing a test with windows itself also for unzipping.

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #165 on: February 04, 2010, 05:05:35 AM »
Oh my god, that frigging did it haha.
unzipping it with windows built in unzip program works.

You can probably imagine my shock right now when I clicked on a directory and it opened, I could hardly believe it worked.

Winrar extraction was the issue.

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction basically ^^ nice work!

Rubix.

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #166 on: February 04, 2010, 05:13:15 AM »
Anyone else for lemmings right now, me and Clam are on the server.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #167 on: February 06, 2010, 09:19:51 AM »
Anyone interested in playing this again? Me and Rubix have had a few good 1v1 sessions this week, and it would be great if we could get some more people on.

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #168 on: February 06, 2010, 10:58:20 AM »
Finally got some spare time again, and I'd sure be up for some games. I'm on right now, just in case; but I'll try to be online today (Saturday) at 21:00 GMT, and tomorrow at 19:00 GMT, or if anyone drop some other suggestions, I might be on then as well.

Hope to see some of you. :)

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #169 on: February 06, 2010, 02:43:16 PM »
Wah... I'd never have guessed that Winrar was the issue. Good to hear the game works for you now. :-D

I'll try to drop by for some games at the suggested times, probably not tonight, but on Sunday.

-- Simon

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #170 on: February 06, 2010, 04:54:58 PM »
I've become suddenly really busy with school recently, so I'm not sure if I'll be on too often

but I think I can play maybe one of today or tomorrow. Maybe both if I get lazy  :P
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #171 on: February 06, 2010, 05:06:15 PM »
Yea, winrar being the cause of my issue was pretty crazy, but at least we know the solution if someone else comes here with those same symptoms.

i'll try join at 21:00 gmt today, thats good for me as tonight (my time) i'll be out watching UFC fights.


Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #172 on: February 06, 2010, 08:57:46 PM »
Wow, good thing I didn't sleep in any longer than I did :D

I'm ready to go now.

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #173 on: February 06, 2010, 10:45:35 PM »
3 online now... anyone wants to join, that'd be great.

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #174 on: February 07, 2010, 01:40:14 AM »
Yea we did some 3 player just now, and if anyone else wants in, we are doing more at 19:00 GMT Sunday.

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #175 on: February 08, 2010, 12:25:20 AM »
good 4 player action today ggs

Offline Dullstar

  • Posts: 2092
    • View Profile
    • Leafwing Studios Website (EXTREMELY OUTDATED)
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #176 on: February 08, 2010, 01:59:25 AM »
I remember - and miss - this.  I should be able to get it back though.  I haven't completely gotten rid of Linux.  :)

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #177 on: February 08, 2010, 02:27:16 AM »
well my brother just msg me 10 mins after me and clam finished and NOW wants to play lol.  if anyone else sees this in time, join in!  He wants to see what 3+ ppl is like also.

Offline Mech

  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #178 on: February 08, 2010, 01:37:16 PM »
Playing L++ at the moment if anyone wants to join. :)

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #179 on: February 08, 2010, 10:04:17 PM »
Dam web irc is not a good idea, as it acts as clones with the same bloody IP

If you want to join the channel you will need a real IRC program downloaded unfortunately.


Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #180 on: February 09, 2010, 02:47:59 AM »
We need more multiplayer maps. I just threw together a 4p map but anyone wants to make more maps it'd be awesome  :thumbsup:

also if anyone wants to play now I'd be up for it, poker went really badly today so I need a break  :(
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #181 on: February 09, 2010, 09:18:52 AM »
Yea spent a good 4 hours of map making tonight

so what I have made today is

A remake of simons (going up 1 level map) with wrap.
Name = Stay Away  [2p,3p,4p,5p,6p,7p,8p]

1 multidirectional 3player map
Name = Manipulation Mayhem

A 4 player map with 2 versions.
Name = Pressures on
Name = Intense Pressure on

A 4p and 6p Map based on jumping
Name = SnowJumping.

A 7p and 8p Map that will make you wanna cry lol
Name = Tears from above. 
(prob will make smaller player versions too)

Hopefully there will be people on tomorow to test some of these, at least the 4players ones, after we find which are good etc, i'll post them for download.

Im gonna keep map making, so we have a lot of map choices available.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #182 on: February 09, 2010, 03:46:08 PM »
I made a 4p, 6p, 8p map today, Mining Village. It's a bit like Pave the Way, but you cross more routes of other people.

We have a lot to test. :)

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #183 on: February 09, 2010, 06:57:41 PM »
3 more 5player maps made this morning.

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1417
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #184 on: February 09, 2010, 11:54:12 PM »
Do you have a video for seting up L++?

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #185 on: February 10, 2010, 12:01:43 AM »
What is your issue exactly, cos for me,  I couldn't browse directories to choose a map to play when I first heard about l++.
 
After a lot of messing around, we found the issue was how it was extracted.  Using winrar does not work.
If you also unzipped the folder with winrar, use something else (like the one that comes with windows, or winzip)

Because there is nothing to install on this.  You unzip the game and double click lpp.exe to run it
thats all there is, no actual setup or install needed.

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1417
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #186 on: February 10, 2010, 12:16:03 AM »
Yeah but when i get on the sprites are missing

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #187 on: February 10, 2010, 01:03:42 AM »
so you are able to choose levels , and once u select one to play, all you see is a black screen or something like that?  Do you hear the hatch open when a level starts etc.

What is your operating system.
Have you tried changing display settings incase its just a graphic issue, but everything is really there , just not showing up.

I Think we need detail of everything you see from starting the game to where you dont see anything.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #188 on: February 10, 2010, 01:06:54 AM »
Yup, what's your operating system?

Inside the L++ folder, do you have the subdirectories bitmap/, levels/, data/ and replay/?

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1417
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #189 on: February 10, 2010, 02:48:36 PM »
WindowsXP
wish i had windows 7

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #190 on: February 10, 2010, 04:46:25 PM »
seriously we cannot help fix your issue if you don't get us some information weve been looking for , to try work out what the problem is.

check our previous questions , especially about the directories that simon was asking.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #191 on: February 10, 2010, 08:16:30 PM »
Hey Giga, I noticed you have a youtube channel, so it looks like you know how to set up your computer to record what's on the screen.  Maybe you should make a video of you trying to run L++ so we can all see exactly the problem that you're seeing.

Offline -H0ru5-

  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #192 on: February 11, 2010, 12:33:33 AM »
Not really about the multiplayer part of L++, but thats what i noticed so far:

I really like the idea of the short stop after the lemmings fall, and probably very useful in multiplayer... however on Genesis level "Jump down!" this makes it impossible to solve the puzzle. The first lemming have to start a stair after a 2 pixels fall, so next lemming reaches the end of the stairway before the first one would finish it - i have to compare it to the original in lemmix later but i think thats the reason why. suggest to let the stop after fall appear in the options as an alternative like the stacking builders checkbox.  ;)
Possibly there are other levels where this stopping can cause trouble ("poor wee creatures-like levels mostly).

On map "Keep all enemies out": the exit is not working - maybe the trigger zone has been altered...  ???

And one way arrows are only background, but i'm sure you know about that one... just noticed it because noone else wrote it down yet as far as i see.

Otherwise great work!  :thumbsup:

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #193 on: February 12, 2010, 11:52:41 AM »
Thanks!

Yes, the trigger areas for some exits are lowered. The crystal exit has an extremely high one regularily. It's much more difficult to build over it in multiplayer, and it looks weird -- Clam Spammer once said, "wtf they're jumping through the roof!" I'll think about whether just to change this level, or raise the area again for a bit.

For "Jump down", the delay before walking shouldn't be the cause. Every lem has the same delay, and the bridge is built even faster in L++. The problem stems from being able to build closer to the edge in the original mechanics. If facing right, you can build bridges that overlap just by 1 pixel. You always have 2 or more facing left. This probably depens on what pixel counts as the lemming's foot. It's balanced in L++, but not in the original. In case I change the level, I'd narrow the gap by 1.

The one-way arrows are tricky to draw both correctly and efficiently, so I've left their mechanics out for the moment. Must tackle this some day... ;-)

-- Simon

Offline -H0ru5-

  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #194 on: February 12, 2010, 08:48:12 PM »
I'm up for my first multiplayer lemmings duel, if anyone interested.  :)
From now i have 4 hours for it.

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #195 on: February 13, 2010, 03:00:07 AM »
You may need to download an irc program and join our lemmings chat channel to make it easier to get games started.   There is at times 5+ people in that channel, making it easy to start games when we are all ready, but im the only one who keeps it connected 24/7   i'll either be there or AFK heheh.

heres the info

www.mirc.com (probably the best client)

server: irc.enterthegame.com
channel: #lemmings

Offline -H0ru5-

  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #196 on: February 13, 2010, 04:54:54 PM »
I found some nasty glitches in L++ . Replays are below. It seems collision check became very submissive for workers... 

In "bugattic", a basher goes through a slope such way the mob is unable to follow him.
"uuuaaa" is even weirder. This time a builder goes through the 1 pixel width wall so i backrouted the testmap accidentally. 

While these glitches have little usability in multiplayer, it is our common interest to remove them before single players puzzles are made which use them...    


I'm on server the whole day... Anyone?

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:22:57 PM by Prob Lem »

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #197 on: February 15, 2010, 07:59:22 AM »
Good finds there H0ru5 

I just found a couple of bugs while testing my own levels. The attached replays show:

1) Lemmings refuse to climb over the mound for no apparent reason. Building up to the side of the mound allows then to get past where they turned back before.

2) Lemmings float on air in a 1-pixel-wide gap when the ground beneath them is removed. Assigning some skills causes them to fall.

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:24:19 PM by Prob Lem »

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #198 on: February 15, 2010, 08:35:34 AM »
Hey guys, decided to have a go at singleplayer map making tonight.   

So , anyone who likes really difficult puzzles, I made 2 versions of the same map.  These were made in L++, so completion should only be based on doing them in L++

Difficulties:
1 is mayhem
1 is Ludicrous (I always liked this word from 'spaceballs' so i'll use it for my hardest maps from now on)

They are definitely both completable, I have my replays saved, they surely work.  Goodluck.

Heres a link to the zip with both inside: http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?tdljnuot1d2

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #199 on: February 15, 2010, 04:18:10 PM »
Simon and Clam have the first one done, yes you may think you might be doing a back-route, but that's the correct way, I couldn't find any other way to do it after a lot of testing.   The hint was definitely something you see trying to throw you off as to why the first map is named "your thoughts are decieved"   

Who will first beat the 2nd version, it's a tough one.

EDIT:  Sounds like clam finished the 2nd one also, well done.

Offline -H0ru5-

  • Posts: 64
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #200 on: February 15, 2010, 09:19:49 PM »
Im here and online on the server, looking for game... unfortunately im in a netcafe right now and can't use mIRC  :(
Guess this will deserve a topic soon...

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #201 on: February 18, 2010, 10:24:36 PM »
Here's the two four player maps that the group played recently. I'll update this thread with maps and I recommend everyone post their maps so people can play them even when the designer is offline.



Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:25:11 PM by Prob Lem »
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #202 on: February 18, 2010, 11:53:43 PM »
Good idea, Mining village is attached.

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:25:51 PM by Prob Lem »

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #203 on: February 18, 2010, 11:55:59 PM »
Good point. Here's the set of maps I've made up to now, overall 39.
There are some not so good ones amongst them, I sorted out most of the utter crapshots though I think.

I also attached the modified (blockerless, and blocker+diggerless) versions of Insane Steve's awesome 'Diagonal (part 2)', hope you don't mind.

EDIT: Oh, and just in case: a 6P version of 'Downward Reduction'

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:26:49 PM by Prob Lem »

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #204 on: February 19, 2010, 01:18:50 AM »
Thanks, will make few more adjusts to some of mine for balance first, then upload a zip of mine. its about 40 maps now.

Edit: Made the modifications needed now.   Here's my .zip
(still havent tested some of the 5p-8p maps I made, hopefully we can get on that soon)

http://www.mediafire.com/download.php?twlxnm4nzmm

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #205 on: February 20, 2010, 04:27:53 AM »
We've had some hilarious 3p games with geoo and Steve, we used voice chat via skype. Steve was drunk, "I've got the best strategy [for the all-floaters map], just nuke right away," and he was right. Geoo and me suffered from lack of sleep, "best thing to do at 5 a.m. in the morning -- blowing up lemmings."

We absolutely must do this again some time, maybe with even more people that use skype!

-- Simon

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #206 on: February 20, 2010, 04:34:14 AM »
We've had some hilarious 3p games with geoo and Steve, we used voice chat via skype. Steve was drunk, "I've got the best strategy [for the all-floaters map], just nuke right away," and he was right. Geoo and me suffered from lack of sleep, "best thing to do at 5 a.m. in the morning -- blowing up lemmings."

We absolutely must do this again some time, maybe with even more people that use skype!

-- Simon

So much this

this game is so much more fun when everyone in the game is actually talking to each other, get Skype, get a mic, and get on L++ it is amazing fun
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #207 on: February 20, 2010, 06:14:28 AM »
Nice :D
skype info: rubixthemagnificent
hehe

i'll join the fun when you next do it.

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #208 on: February 20, 2010, 11:40:49 AM »
This was an awesome night.

L++ is like twice the fun when you can talk and hear the other players' reactions instantaniously.

Even levels like 'yet another testing level' are fun then!


Btw, here's my latest creation, follow-up the 'The Rubbish Dump' and 'The Scrap Heap': 'The Trash Pile':

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:27:25 PM by Prob Lem »

Offline okmot

  • Posts: 66
    • View Profile
multiplayer lemmings
« Reply #209 on: February 21, 2010, 12:39:34 AM »
The participants of this thread appear to really enjoy the frenzy that is a multiplayer lemmings match.  Along those lines i thought i'd make you aware of this thread (http://www.lemmingsforums.com/index.php?topic=317.0) for those that might be interested.

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #210 on: February 21, 2010, 02:22:29 AM »
Ah yes ^ clones.
 I signed up a long time ago for this, its going to be a great game hehe.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #211 on: February 25, 2010, 02:27:32 PM »
I've been programming for the past days again, and I'm nearly done with a server that supports a lobby and multiple rooms. A new teamplay mode assigns a single common tribe to whoever selects the same color, and the skillset is shared. Some minor cosmetical issues are fixed at this time.

I'm going to collect multiplayer maps for inclusion in the next release. I will go through the attachments/links of this topic itself here and the one in Level Designing. If you've made some fine levels, post them in the next few days in case you haven't already.

-- Simon

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #212 on: February 26, 2010, 12:12:36 AM »
I made blockerless versions of "Pyramid Plunder" and "Perilous Descent", but they didn't play too well, so I'll leave those for now. Depending on what gets added to L++ in the next version, I might make some changes to these levels.

I changed the skillset for "Put it on the line", to make it much harder (but not impossible ) to make lemmings walk the other way. I will make versions for more than 2 players at some point, but for now here's the 2P version (attached).

Mod Edit: Restored attachments.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2014, 08:28:12 PM by Prob Lem »

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #213 on: February 27, 2010, 05:21:04 AM »
New version 2010-02-27 is out!

Download the newest version of L++.

You can play on the updated central server -- thanks go to Mindless for hosting it as before. Also thanks to Clam Spammer, geoo, Steve, Rubix, and minimac for all the great multiplayer levels!

We usually play after 00:00 UTC. A good idea is to join the IRC channel if you wish to participate, that makes it easier to find out the exact times.

-- Simon

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #214 on: February 27, 2010, 07:43:03 PM »
The new version is awesome.   The addition of teamplay is excellent.  Lemmings is taken to a whole new level with L++     :D

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1417
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #215 on: March 21, 2010, 05:56:56 PM »
wish i could join the fun but i can't get it working
but can you post a link on this fourm,an already working one
Please

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #216 on: March 21, 2010, 11:42:28 PM »
wish i could jion the fun but i can't get it working
but can you post a link on this fourm an allreedy working one
Please

Ok, this post is not meant to be mean to you, but you do need to see things from our eyes, so this is the last time I will respond to your posts unless you start taking more care with what you write, so everyone has a good understanding of what it is you are talking about.

You see..... to us, you never make anything clear.

Let's use your last post to show you why people are just 'lost' with what you are saying.


"but i can't get it working"   <---- CLEAR details about problem's always should follow.     
We really cannot even start to think of a solution with what you just told us in those few words.

"but can you post a link on this fourm"  <------ You haven't made it clear what sort of link do you want   ?   ?   ?   ?   ? This is soooo confusing .....   you want a link to the download page for l++?  Or a link to a troubleshooting page maybe ?   ?   ?    ?   

"an allreedy working one"    <------- I'm still totally confused about this part also.. I just don't have a clue what you are trying to say.      (if someone gives you a link to click, you want them to test that the link actually takes you somewhere and is not a broken-link?)



To sum this up.   I think you write something and then post it without reading what you have wrote.   You need to read what you have typed, then think about it from someone else reading it....  Think to yourself "Does it seem completely clear to a stranger?"

Please take this seriously, it's going to help a lot of people , as you appear to post quite often on the lemmings forums.

Thanks, seeya.






Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #217 on: March 22, 2010, 02:00:59 AM »
Simon, i've fixed things in the last 2 packs I put up here, so both those previous zips can be deleted, they are all in this updated pack now.

http://download57.mediafire.com/wf3yzecbrtmg/jnyfwmtzj4z/RubiXMaps_pack2_and3_fixed.zip

Run to the hills:  fixed steel with postbox exit triggers, and entrance steel added.

Removed the fling map, and pop your path maps, kept the full abilities versions only, with steel on bottoms.

Dolly dimple multi's: changed the flooring type to being flat.

Play hard:  Moved the exits a few pixels to the right to be more visible.

Thanks.



Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #218 on: April 23, 2010, 11:22:48 AM »
In the IRC we've planned a multiplayer session scheduled for tomorrow (Saturday), 5:00am UTC.
(We usually just play spontaneously, but this way those who don't frequent the IRC have a chance as well.)

Anyone is free to join; check to have the newest version (dated 10-03-11), if you don't, drop me or Simon a message, or simply get into the IRC, as it's currently not available on the site.

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #219 on: April 24, 2010, 07:56:10 AM »
We actually had 8 for a few games, which was awesome  :thumbsup:

We need to play more games more often
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline RubiX

  • Posts: 430
  • Amiga <3 The memories
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #220 on: April 24, 2010, 07:31:20 PM »
yea finally 8 player!  Great fun .

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #221 on: May 07, 2010, 09:26:22 PM »
We plan to have another session on Sunday, May 9th, 4:00am UTC.

As last time, everyone is invited, perhaps we can get 8 players again. :D

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #222 on: May 28, 2010, 08:19:51 PM »
Next big session is scheduled for tomorrow, Saturday May 29th, 19:00 UTC.

Online Simon

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 3878
    • View Profile
    • Lix
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #223 on: June 07, 2010, 04:18:23 AM »
A story about immediately going back to fanning

Yesterday in IRC, we talked about ccexplore's solution to L2 Space 6 5, the level that he wrote a whole text file about. You had to blow a balooner down a shaft while roping at the same time. Basic idea: Immediately go back to fanning (= direct quote from the file) after doing anything else even for a tiny slice of time.

Skip forward to a talk about how geoo makes an extra version of Downward Reduction, an L++ multiplayer level. "lemming potpourri" means that every entrance spawns lemmings of every player.

<geoo> made potpourrified versions of all of them now
<Simon> Then hatch bombing isn't that good of a strategy anymore, since you want to get lots of lems into your miner hole.
<geoo> Well, you bomb under the hatch that is located above your exit
<Simon> I will send back the usual platformer squad.
<geoo> But it sounds interesting, as you got your lemmings everywhere then
<geoo> haha
<geoo> then come the counter-miners
<Simon> I will send miners back to the left of the hatch and mine to the right, so the exploders won't get where they should in the first place.
<geoo> Then I just use your miner tunnel instead of the bomber hole
<Simon> Fine, I get lems from two hatches then.
<geoo> I just nuke and by coincidence it will blow a large hole directly above my exit
<Simon> Where everyone splats.
<geoo> Nuclear winter it is then
<Simon> Nah, some survive.
<geoo> And enter my exit?
<Simon> They get stuck in the walls of the hole, from where they can mine to other exits.
<geoo> Then I go immediately back to fanning and blow them into my exit
<Simon> :D
<Simon> I should make a level "immediately go back to fanning"
<geoo> do it!
(20 minutes later)
<Simon> Alright, I'm done.

See attached picture for the result.

Immediately go back to Fanning is a map for two players. The idea is that you're busy assigning floaters on both sides, and you must still be faster in the center than your opponent. The overtime is 6 seconds. If you don't assign floaters all the time, your opponent can just nuke if he's ahead by some number of lemmings. If you're slow in the middle, your opponent can nuke after he's done with the middle...

-- Simon

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #224 on: June 07, 2010, 04:51:16 PM »
To be fair, we weren't actually talking about the ccexplore's route to Space 5. (On that note, the skill reduction solutions for Egyptian 10 are epic as well!) The whole picture is that 'immediately go back to fanning' has turned into some kind of meme and a symbol for the passion ccexplore shares for lemmings :thumbsup::

Quote from: Mar. 13th
<Simon> Wah, in the zip archive of ccexplore's reply #2 to the topic, he's written a complete text file about a single solution.
<Simon> "quickly blow him as far down as you can.  This will be extremely tricky and will take many tries" -- "Immediately go back to fanning and navigating the ballooner further down" -- "Immediately prepare to go back to fanning"

Quote from: May 16th
<geoo> Like the roper's base I/T shape, getting down with the mortar 7/8 pixels
<Simon> Yeah, remember the roper difference.
<geoo> Not being able to assign a different lemming while roper/archer is aiming
<geoo> I'm not too familiar with the Amiga version, but these are a few differences I noticed when I had a try
<Simon> When I read "can't assign while aiming", I always have to think of "immediately go back to fanning"
<geoo> haha
<Simon> That and the fact that ccexplore wrote a whole text file just for a single level.
<Simon> Really shows his love for the games :)

Quote from: Jun. 7th, earlier this night
<Simon> I will probably not implement wind :)
<Matt_> well you wouldn't have to implement wind,
<geoo> haha yeah, the wind driven skills are kinda annoying
<geoo> definately not something for multiplayer
<Simon> Immediately go back to fanning.
<geoo> LOL
<geoo> (literally, for once)

And yes, we ended up playing "Immediately go back to fanning" until deep into the night.

Offline ccexplore

  • Posts: 5311
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #225 on: June 07, 2010, 06:30:49 PM »
 :o :D
lol Wow, what an interesting train of thought going from Space 5 to that L++ multiplayer level!

(Incidentally, I think I would've picked Space 8 [the level with the "Tarzan" solution] myself as the exemplary "immediately go back to fanning" level.  Though I guess my Space 5 solution was probably the first solution for which the meme applies.)

Offline geoo

  • Administrator
  • Posts: 1475
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #226 on: June 08, 2010, 01:06:30 AM »
I was actually all the time thinking of the Tarzan level and had even typed it in my post before I realized that the original quote stems from Space 5.
So your estimate for the exemplary "immediately go back to fanning" level applies at least to me. ;)

Offline GigaLem

  • The Dog That Brought Lemmings to Avalice
  • Posts: 1417
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #227 on: November 05, 2010, 10:24:57 PM »
hey i'm gonna play l++ since its finaly working anybody wanna jion

Offline l3mming

  • Posts: 1
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #228 on: November 08, 2010, 02:06:36 PM »
Hello,

this is my first post here. Looks like i missed the multiplayer game.

Was allways watching for a Multiplayer Version for me and me friend.

Looks like i missed the chance to Download L++.

Anyone here able to mail me it please.

Thanks in Advance.


Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #229 on: December 09, 2010, 02:56:21 AM »
We had a few good sessions recently, but it seems to have died again in the last couple of weeks. :(

I made some new levels for this, based on the levels in my ClamSpam05 levelpack. However, the only one that played even remotely well (IMO) was "Play Bridge". The others either ended up in boring exit wars, or were too easy to prevent other players from saving any lemmings due to having to build up to reach the exits. (The question remains: are the levels hard, or do we all just suck? ;P)

I've attached 2-4P versions of Play Bridge, as well as a mindless-clickfest level I threw together in a couple of minutes. :D

Offline chaos_defrost

  • Posts: 908
  • the artist formerly known as Insane Steve
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #230 on: December 09, 2010, 04:42:20 AM »
in a couple days I'll be done with statistics week from hell and I'll be able to play more games
"こんなげーむにまじになっちゃってどうするの"

~"Beat" Takeshi Kitano

Offline Clam

  • Posts: 2187
  • Smiley: :8():
    • View Profile
Re: L++: Networked multiplayer Lemmings
« Reply #231 on: December 09, 2010, 09:01:53 PM »
Oh, neat 8)

Maybe this would be an opportunity to organise another big session with as many players as possible?