It's worth noting that July 22nd + 29th have train strikes.  (I think there will be some trains still running but most likely on main lines - there'd better be anyway, as I'm running the Yorkshire tough mudder on the 29th/30th...)

How's the project coming along btw?

I'd be interested.
I live in Derby, so can get anywhere really. (Leeds is quite easy on a train, and I have another friend there)
July/August would be best (except Jul 1-2, Jul 29-30, Aug 25-27), as June is fully booked.

I've recently been recording some of the video playthroughs, and having fun in the process. Been making a bunch of changes along the way, and will put up a release candidate when I'm done.

I've also discovered the existence of DOSBox-X, which has savestates built-in by default. (I used it to run Win 98 so I could play Swiv 3D using savestates)
Link added to the main page.

I believe it came with the Amiga version, and I do recall reading this when my cousin got the game back in the day. I remember each chapter (after the intro) being about a different tribe (clockwise from Highland), and that is why I've always seen that as the natural order of the tribes. But I don't really remember much else about it, and the wiki has no mention of it...can anyone else remember it?

And another one, with more random things...but with a major focus on tieing down the number of various skills used (to prevent backroutes by being able to save a skill or two). I also found myself fixing stuff simply by removing skills and/or time. (so there are a few levels where the time limit is an indicator of the wrong solution)

====================
Version 13.11 has been released
====================

Highland 2 (Pillars of Hebrides) - raised the height of the pillars and exit. (I still managed to backroute it)
Highland 3 (McLem's Drunken Dream) - extended the first cloud you land on (to make it easier) and added some skills just in case.
Highland 4 (Lemfidditch Distillery) - raised the bottom of the water pit. (for easier twistering)
Highland 6 (The Iron-Rich Mountain) - +5 twisters (it is upwards after all) and -1 roper, which now forces a choice between an easier start and an easier end.

Circus 3 (Jack in t'Box) - -4 laser blasters, as it was possible to bypass the cannon. (unfortunately making it a little harder)
Circus 4 (Don't Capture the Flag) - reworked the trapdoor areas and some of the skillset. (which finally fixes the backroute, along with now requiring only 1 lemming from each side to travel round)
Circus 5 (Across the Abyss) - lowered the trapdoor (as a hint) and -2 mins. (I can't force either solution without being too nasty, but I can make the alternative solution a little harder.  I have cleared it in just over 3 mins with multi-tasking, though)
Circus 6 (The Weighting Room) - -2 mins, to force the original solution. (it's nice that time limits can be used in this way)
Circus 9 (Roadblock) - slight change to the terrain on the red/yellow side.

Medieval 2 (Cave of Knaves) - slight tweak to the roof of the SW cave (more headroom) and replaced 2 builders with 3 archers. (they weren't really involved much in the construction)
Medieval 3 (Hack & Slash) - removed some skills and 2 mins. (to force a harder version of the solution, and also to introduce a certain trick a few levels earlier)
Medieval 6 (White Cliffs of Dunder) - slight tweaks to the skillset.
Medieval 7 (Dungeon & Dragon) - slight tweaks to the skillset.
Medieval 8 (Siege Engine Graveyard) - added a metal strip (to prevent an alternative way to the middle trapdoor) and tweaked the skillset.

Egyptian 2 (Stomp Like an Egyptian) - altered the terrain under the trapdoor (it was still possible to save a stomper here)
Egyptian 3 (Night Boat to Duat) - added metal all the way along between the 2 paths (backroute fix), -2 fillers. (not needed)
Egyptian 7 (Sidestepping Evolution) - +1 shimmier, to make the final action a bit easier.
Egyptian 10 (Mandatory Pyramid Level) - +2 bashers, in case the stomper on the right side gets out of place.

Outdoor 3 (Under the Growth) - removed a few skills, as it was still possible to bypass the flicker snail.
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - shortened the wooden ledge at the top. (for easier ballooning)
Outdoor 5 (Treetop Village) - +2 ballooners. (for cancelling skills)
Outdoor 6 (Not Mushroom Out There) - added some skills in case things go wrong early on. (or if a 2nd worker is wanted)
Outdoor 8 (Sinkhole Rescue Team) - reverted the scoopers/bombers to 2 each. (quicker and easier for the right-side tunnelling)
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - added a vine to help the top-left trapdoor, and a few more skills to ease the pressure a bit.

Beach 3 (Fall & Rise of Reg Lemmy) - added some gliders and removed some platformers.
Beach 4 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - made the sandy cliff slope downward a little in front of the exit. (it was possible to backroute by having it flat with sand piles on)
Beach 6 (Little Fluffy Clouds) - replaced the floating island with a cloud and the sand pourer with a flamethrower. (it is now a completely sandless Beach level)
Beach 7 (Beach Hut BBQ) - added 1 more bit of metal to prevent gliding from the exit platform.
Beach 8 (Sandy Cove) - enlarged the island slightly. (so no need to pour sand on a pointy bit)

Sports 6 (A Mountain to Climb) - lowered the shuttlecocks to ensure that the crowd has to pass through them (important to know for L10). Also -2 archers and -2 platformers. (not needed)

Shadow 3 (Filling Station) - added a bit of metal around the sewers. (bazookas are surprisingly good at backrouting)
Shadow 6 (Scraping the Sky) - added more metal around the cannon room. (I backrouted it myself)
Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassable) - altered the terrain and the skillset, to finally kill the alternative route.

Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) - reworked the water and the dino section (finally fixing the backroute) and added another puzzle for good measure. Also +1 spearer, -1 builder.
Cavelem 8 (Up in the Jungle) - removed a few skills to prevent an alternative route that bypassed the main puzzle.
Cavelem 9 (Devolution of Lemmings) - slight rework of mid-level terrain, to tie down the number of builders used (there was a couple of spots where you might use 1 or 2, and the level will break if there are 3 spares). +2 builders as a result.

Space 6 (JMC Mining Complex) - slight tweak to the left cave, to ensure safe magno-booting.
Space 7 (Laser Quest) - removed some skills and the end off the starting ledges, as the level was taking a bit too long to complete.

Polar 4 (It's All Downhill!) - lowered the entire level slightly. (so it doesn't appear to be quite such a big drop into the exit cave)
Polar 8 (The Crevasse) - added more metal to the previously-added metal.

Time for a new build, with various random things:

====================
Version 13.10 has been released
====================

Highland 10 (Ten Brown Barrels) - shortened all the ledges down the centre, to prevent ropes from reaching across to any of them above the exit ledge.

Circus 10 (Deca-Dance) - moved some terrain up/down and added some metal, in order to add a 2nd twister.

Classic 3 (A Race of Halves) - extended the metal block near the exit downwards, to fix a backroute.

Medieval 3 (Hack & Slash) - removed an erronious trapdoor. (ugh)
Medieval 9 (Tower of Maidens) - removed a fencer and 2 rollers.
Medieval 10 (The Siege of Lemcastle) - reduced platformers & stackers to 3 each. Added 4 miners, 5 archers and some wooden blocks, as a result. (unfortunately this makes the level even harder, but it was the only way to prevent bridging all the way across to the castle)

Egyptian 6 (Tomb of Ikea) - added metal to the ledges in the puzzle area. (it was possible to backroute after the stomper was added)
Egyptian 9 (The Plunger's Tomb) - added metal to fix a very clever backroute. (that I found myself)

Outdoor 2 (Race for Life) - added more metal above the exit.
Outdoor 6 (Not Mushroom Out There) - changed the face plant at the bottom, so it can't be blown up anymore.

Beach 3 (Fall & Rise of Reg Lemmy) - moved the small clam ledge up a bit. (possible glider backroute)
Beach 4 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - reverted the previous change to the sand pile at the foot of the cliff.
Beach 6 (Little Fluffy Clouds) - removed a couple of skills, to tighten the management even more.
Beach 7 (Beach Hut BBQ) - extended the metal on the slope all the way down to the water. (to fix a backroute that starts by the exit)
Beach 8 (Sandy Cove) - removed an erronious test trapdoor. (ugh)

Sports 3 (Letting Off Steam) - lowered part of the bottom section, as the fencer could get up unaided before.
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - added a metal block to prevent the miner from finishing up too high.
Sports 9 (Remote Control) - altered the top section and -1 rock climber, to make the runner mandatory.

Shadow 6 (Scraping the Sky) - added a small block to the upward indoor section. (it was still possible to backroute)
Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - moved the top right trapdoor back to it's proper location. (ugh)

Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - removed 2 builders, after discovering they weren't needed to go over the purple teleporter.

Polar 8 (The Crevasse) - added metal to the thinnest section (another self-discovered backroute fix) and a new puzzle to the bottom section. (the level wasn't really hard enough)

Spoiler

Sports 8 - I knew there'd still be a way to break it...in this case by mining high enough to hit the wall and turn him round (the idea was to prevent the climber rescuing his own trapdoor, by making it so that the runner from the other trapdoor has to come down and do it). That can be sorted with a metal block, albeit at the cost of making that miner fairly precise. (it is a miner though, and the terrain tells you where to place it)

Sports 9 - The place you failed at was the runner and the loop...he doesn't need to do either. Once he's gone inside and turned the 2nd valve off/on again, he can stay there until the climber from below has gone back up to turn the 1st valve on again. Then he mines out and goes over to turn off the 1st valve one last time.

The runner is actually redundant atm (he's meant to be used for the platforms), so I think I'll alter the top section to make him needed (removing the 3rd climber too). Either that or remove the runner altogether, which I'm a bit reluctant to do. (as it only appears in this tribe)

Sports 10 - given it's one of "those" levels, I will offer a little advice when you play it...once the bottom is safe, sort the exit out first. (it'll take a few goes to learn it)

Quote from: Simon on June 29, 2022, 11:38:43 PM

Loap and L2Player, these projects must grow. Custom L2 packs are nice alrelady in DOS L2, but Kieran and Ste had to hold back on puzzle difficulty lest they introduced accidental execution difficulty. I deem level design more an art than a science. Let's not curb the designers' creativity, let's offer them the best tooling we can.

Agreed. ToS would benefit so much more from L2Player, especially on the last level of each tribe - those are a crazy concept that probably does need a bit more in the player-aid department. (though savestate DOSBox is adequate to some degree, like it was with L3)

Spoiler

Sports 6 - I think that's my fault for not making it obvious that the pole vault is done at the start...although that cheesy backroute is still there too. I think I can sort it though.
Sports 7 - There appears to be several solutions for each puzzle in there...some I can block, others I can't. (at least I can preserve the main puzzle, ie. the pole vault)

And now onto the next build:

====================
Version 13.9 has been released
====================

Sports 5 (Dynamic Duo) - lengthened the runner pit near the end and added a block to ensure that the climber has to go through first. Also -3 shimmiers, to prevent both lemmings from jumping there & back across the water. (these measures should make it a bit tighter)
Sports 6 (A Mountain to Climb) - reworked the top area, to make the opening puzzle more obvious. Also added metal down the shaft to fix a backroute.
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - slight changes to the first 2 areas, to disable and re-enable certain solutions.

Shadow 10 (Pockets of Resistance) - slightly enlarged the central building and lined it with metal, to fix a very clever backroute. Also shortened the hanging building and moved the clouds to maintain the gap.

Cavelem 2 (Land vs. Sea vs. Air) - added metal to the top ledge, put a hole in the basin, changed a few skills to prevent backroutes.
Cavelem 4 (Ruined Temple) - removed some rock at the temple exit, -2 builders, +1 stacker.  (this increases the difficulty slightly)
Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) - more changes to prevent shortcutting.

Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - removed the airlock by the trapdoor, -2 builders, +1 glue pourer. (this makes it more difficult and more appropriate for it's slot)
Space 9 (Space Glue Factory) - minor terrain changes for easier execution.

Polar 2 (Piste Off) - added metal underneath the top area and reworked the bottom to fix backroutes.
Polar 3 (Icy Races) - replaced the leftmost water with a pit and slope, +1 flamethrower, -1 stacker. (changing the solution slightly)

Nice vids, relatively little to fix with some of these:

Spoiler

Shadow 10 - Somehow I had a feeling you'd find an alternative way down the central shaft...hence why I didn't think about bazookas being fired at animated windows. Thumbs up for finding it though, very clever. Trouble is, the only way I can fix it is to put metal around the edge of the building...which looks ugly as hell.

Sports 3 - I didn't check that you could fence up through the first wall without jumping on an arrow first...that can be sorted. The spare fencer is to make a bigger tunnel for the shimmier at the top. (so he has room to jump)
Sports 4 - There's enough time to release the 4th trapdoor after the other 3 have gone through, so there's no need to scroll & fiddle.  The original solution for the middle (under the chain swinger) was to stick an arrow in the ceiling and bridge into it, as at the time I didn't think of firing an arrow straight down. Because it's an obscure trick, I left the platformer in.
Sports 5 - Sometimes the level name is a clue, in this case there was meant to be 2 workers (and to enforce it I had to limit the skills to only 1 attempt at releasing the crowd). That was one of my best ideas for a level (re-using the trampoline-over-a-pit trick from Circus 9), glad to hear you liked it.

Regarding the rock climber turning round at the arrow, the level was originally designed to introduce that little quirk, so it was familiar when it was part of a puzzle in a later level...but later removed it from said puzzle. (it's so counter-intuitive)

There'll be another build soon (with a couple of Polar fixes and the rest of the metal trick that you noted), but I'll probably wait to see if anything else needs fixing in there.

Another new build - after fixing a Shadow backroute, I decided to check over the last 3 tribes - just in case anything was wrong. And it was:

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Version 13.8 has been released
====================

Shadow 9 (Mission: Impassible) - replaced the gate with metal blocks, leaving only a thin shaft for the rock climber.

Cavelem 5 (Lem of the Dump) - some slight alterations to terrain and skill counts, to prevent a backroute and CC.
Cavelem 6 (Last Rule of Bash Club) - slightly reduced the skill counts.
Cavelem 7 (The Lemcave) - added some more metal across the top of the cave.

Space 3 (Magno Force) - swapped with L4, weird pit edges removed and renamed "Alien Hideout".
Space 4 (Orbital Bombardment) - swapped with L3.
Space 6 (Laser Quest) - complete redesign of the middle, it's now puzzly instead of pure execution. Skills altered a bit too, and swapped with L7 due to increased difficulty.
Space 7 (JMC Mining Complex) - swapped with L6, slight alteration to one cave.
Space 8 (Beam Me Somewhere Shotty) - blocked the wrong side of the white teleporter. (it was a possible shortcut)

Polar 5 (Eskimo Beat) - a few changes, mainly to make the 2 big drops skier-proof. (I forgot they increase the splat distance a little)
Polar 7 (Research Outpost) - a couple of slight terrain changes, to make the solution a little less counter-intuitive.

Didn't expect that:

Spoiler

Shadow 8 - one of my favourite puzzles. Slightly easier if you send 2 lemmings across the ceiling at the start, and use the 3rd rock climber to carry out the solution ahead of the crowd.
Shadow 9 - oops. I've fixed it and sent geoo a copy, as I doubt I'll get another release out before he plays it.
Shadow 10 - Never seen a crash there before (in fact the only one I've ever had was on Polar 10 when it had a cool skier trick in it). There are easier (and safer) ways to get the bottom corner trapdoors out, though. (the central shaft is another one of my favourite puzzles too)

Nice videos. Outdoor does seem broken in places, and Beach seems to be made of cheese rather than sand. I actually think Sports is one of the hardest tribes in the pack, so glad to hear you enjoyed it.

Spoiler

Outdoor 2 – That's a backroute, should be easy to sort.
Outdoor 3 – The bad thing about the flicker is that you can't walk onto it...unless you build a bridge first.
Outdoor 4 – There are a few vanilla L1/L2 references in the pack, that was the first one I thought of (also the very first level idea I had). The only issue appears to be CC at the top, a bit of metal under the trapdoor should solve that.
Outdoor 6 – at one point I thought you were going to bomb the mushroom next to the flicker (which would've been a backroute), but instead came up with a neat alternative use for the rope.
Outdoor 7 – ballooning directly out from under the tree wasn't intended (it's a bit tight), but I can fix that.
Outdoor 8 – looks like a redesign is needed here, I didn't think it could be done that easily.
Outdoor 9 – and here too, the solution wasn't the one I thought of. I do like it though, so I'll make it the new solution (albeit a little harder). And the intended solution is also used in Shadow, so it's still in the game.
Outdoor 10 – I have to admit that sometimes I worry about the execution requirement on these L10's...but I was trying to do something different, and provide an epic finale to each tribe.

Beach 2 – I was actually aware that this one was broken, but didn't fix it before this video went up. (btw, the flamethrowers are there to prevent the 50/50 scooper dilemma)
Beach 3 – Very nice...you even used the intended solution from the previous level. A single block of metal will fix it though.
Beach 4 – Oops, looks like I need to make that fall a splat distance.
Beach 6 – One little cloud broke the whole level. I'd not taken the cloud below the trapdoor into account either, so I'll alter the top half of the solution accordingly.
Beach7   - Nice move with the left trapdoor. This one might get re-designed anyway, but for now I'll add another set of beach huts to fix it.
Beach 8 – Nicely done, I didn't think of scooping directly onto the metal. The big sand pile was also a backroute as you suspected.
Beach 9 – There is a way to CC at the start, but tbh I don't like it's reliability (which is why there are so many divers). I've thought of a better (and thematic) way to do it though, so I'll add the extra skills.
Beach 10 – The same (unreliable CC) method was meant to be used in the bottom-right corner (to surf each lemming across), so I might set up the new method there, too.

Sports 2 – Everyone seems to like the top route...think I can sort it though. Surprised that you said there were no jumpers...would've been much easier if you remembered the shimmiers.
Sports 3 – Same with this level. And if one fencer tunnel isn't high enough, there's always two.
Sports 4 – Damnit, I knew there'd still be a way to break it. Reducing skills should fix it though.
Sports 5 – Ditto. All I can do is remove a fencer, which leaves you needing to fence the right way. Pause always works though.
Sports 6 – Very clever backroute, but changing the solution can fix it. (no more mining down)
Sports 7 – Some lovely irony going on here. You used my original solution to the 1st room, in the 2nd room. (I removed it because it was relying on knowledge of that weird quirk that rock climbers have, by not going over vertical arrows). I can disable that solution in both rooms, though. (you were right about the pole vaulter, but you'd built the bridge too high in the video)
Sports 8 – Bit hacky but yes, another one that needed fixing to preserve the main concept.
Sports 9 – There is a much quicker way to finish it (sending the crowd up and using the runner to lay the bridges instead of sending the rock climber up on his own), but I've added some time anyway.  As for visual indicators...the darts near each valve are giving a clue, but tbh this tribe is quite poor for that sort of thing. (as are most of them)
Sports 10 – And again...you used my original solution to the top-left trapdoor (it was a narrower gap so you could fence a hole in the far side to climb into).  I am going to lower the exit a bit (you didn't need to fire from so far back btw) and add some miners, to prevent running out completely.

And this leads onto a new build with many changes:

====================
Version 13.7 has been released
====================

Outdoor 2 (Race for Life) - extended the metal above the exit. (to match the metal below)
Outdoor 3 (Under the Growth) - replaced the fence post by the flicker with a metal block.
Outdoor 4 (In Order: Down, Along, Up) - added some metal under the trapdoor area. (safer CC)
Outdoor 6 (Not Mushroom Out There) - replaced the mushroom by the flicker with a metal block.
Outdoor 7 (The Irrigation Pond) - lowered the tree down a touch. (to prevent ballooning directly out)
Outdoor 8 (Sinkhole Rescue Team) - redesigned the middle, removed the 2nd trapdoor, raised the exits, altered some skill amounts.
Outdoor 9 (Swamp Thing) - removed the long vine sticking out of the tree on the left side.
Outdoor 10 (The Plantshaft) - redesigned the buried trapdoor near the exit.

Beach 2 (The Sand Pit) - extended the pit to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 3 (Fall & Rise of Reg Lemmy) - added a metal block to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 4 (Everybody Do the Flop!) - raised a ledge up to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 6 (Little Fluffy Clouds) - removed a little cloud to prevent it being cheesed. Also extended the cloud below the trapdoor, -1 diver, +3 flamethrowers. (a little bit of skill management going in there)
Beach 7 (Beach Hut BBQ) - added another column of beach huts to the left trapdoor to prevent it being cheesed.
Beach 8 (Sandy Cove) - some alterations to the cave itself. Also +2 surfers.
Beach 9 (Dune Climbing Contest) - added some sand and 1 platformer, to make the CC easier.
Beach 10 (Artificial Resort) - added 1 platformer, to make the CC in that area easier. (there was enough sand already)

Sports 2 (The Stadium Underbelly) - slight rework of the trapdoor area (again), this time adding a wall and 2 rock climbers.
Sports 3 (Letting off Steam) - removed the scenery-only steam jets, and added a slight visual clue for the valve.
Sports 4 (Hold the Line) - reduced fencers and archers to 1, miners by 1, added a few shimmiers and tweaked a couple of areas.
Sports 5 (Dynamic Duo) - removed a fencer, as it was the only way to preserve the main concept. (unfortunately that means you now have to fence the right way, but pausing always seems to work)
Sports 6 (A Mountain to Climb) - carved a metal-floored path under the valves, added wedges to enable a rock climber to get up to the top area. (instead of mining down from the valves)
Sports 7 (The Gulf in Class) - altered the ceilings to prevent shimmiers from crossing. (so many great solutions in this tribe, that I have to remove one to protect another)
Sports 8 (Switcheroo) - many alterations to many parts of the level. (it was quite hard to fix this one)
Sports 9 (Remote Control) - +1 min.
Sports 10 (Mastered Doubles) - lowered the top of the pipe area (including the exit) down a touch, for easier execution. Also +5 miners for flexibility.

Really appreciate this guys, thanks a lot.

I was about to do another update with Outdoor/Beach fixes, now I shall hold off until I've seen the Sports video.

(btw, I checked the 13.6 zipfile and Beach 1 is fine...it must be because the editor uses that level slot and something got corrupted)