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Messages - ccexplore

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1
Ok, with the pictures, I also see that your 30th lemming started building one pixel left of the correct location.  Below's what it looks like in Lemmix, with lines added to show lemming's location by lining up with the pattern of pixels in the ground below.  (Click on the picture below so it's zoomed in and you can better see the lines I added.)  If you compare that with your "picture 2", you will see that your picture 2 has that same builder one pixel more to the left compared to Lemmix.  This means in your "picture 2", that lemming should've walked 1 pixel more before being assigned builder to start building, in order to match Lemmix.

So try "picture 2" again but fix where your 30th lemming is building, leave the release rates changes the same (54 after 8th, 56 after 32nd).  See if that works.

2
Your videos are too blurry, I cannot really see the pixel-level details.  I actually can't really tell the difference between the first two videos for example (ie. the "locking..." and "one pixel later" videos), in terms of what the basher ends up making when you stopped him with assigning builder.  The blurriness might be youtube's fault though, I don't know.  You said your emulator uses AVI recorder, so usually that means it should preserve individual pixels and not blur anything out.

If you put the emulator AVI video files into ZIP files, maybe they are then small enough to attach here?  Maybe if I play the AVI video files directly on my computer instead of viewing them on youtube, I can then see the individual pixels without any blurriness.

Or you can make screenshots to show what the basher makes for each of your above 3 attempts, so I can compare with how it looks in the Lemmix replay.  Your previous screenshots (a few posts back) have no blurriness, they just didn't show the important things I wanted to look at.

3
In your second video (not the one you just posted, the second one of two in your earlier post), you stopped the basher one frame too soon.  As I explained, you need to stop it one frame later so that the dent created is 2 pixels tall rather than just 1 pixel.  Everything else in that video looks good I think.

It makes a lot more sense had there not been annoying exposed graphics from the hangman trap obscuring the actual land pixels near that area.  The land shape is wrong if you stopped the basher one frame too early, you'll see a dent but it is not coming off of a tall enough step.  On the next frame the dent will become 2 pixels tall, and more importantly will have a tall enough step leading up to it.

[edit: just to be crystal clear, this is the video I'm talking about https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dtaGC2GTSsc)

4
Okay this digger picture actually show you dig 2 pixel behind than lemmix.

If that's what it looks like for you, I wonder if maybe you are not looking at the correct level or replay in Lemmix.  You need to be looking at the 0304.lvl level, which amongst other things has an animated waving flag object added to the right of the level (to help distinguish from the original), and you also need to use the replay whose filename has "SNESTest" in it, instead of the original one I posted for the 13-skill DOS record.  You must use F4 in the main menu to go to the settings menu that allows you to toggle "look for LVL files", in order to make Lemmix load the level from that file instead of using the original official version from DOS.

If you don't see the added waving flag object in the level, then you are using the wrong level to play back the replay with.  I wouldn't expect the solution to play out correctly in that case though, so I don't know what to say.  Did you actually verify that the replay successfully saved everyone?  You can press Spacebar key a few times in Lemmix to skip forward to the end and see how many % saved.  If it doesn't say 100%, then your setup in Lemmix is incorrect.

Make sure you performed the two release rate changes:  from 50 to 54 after 8th lemming comes out, and from 54 to 56 after 32nd lemming comes out (which is also around the time you assign builder to 30th lemming).

If you end up with 1 lemming stuck into metal, that means lemming arrived too soon.  If that lemming is the 34th lemming out, maybe you can try and see what happens if you skip the 54->56 release rate change, which would put him 1 step behind.

Hope you can fix the problem with video recording soon.

5
The video confirms that you started bashing too far to the right.  I kind of hate that you are making me do all this, but attached here is picture of where you should start digging on SNES.  It is one pixel more to the left compared to the Lemmix replay, to compensate for basher difference.  I also attached a picture of what the dent made by basher (that the 30th lemming's building eventually seals up to trigger sliding) should look like on SNES, the dent circled in light blue.  Those two things are different in your video.

Where you start bashing matters because while it doesn't require pixel-perfect timing, the solution is still relying on the basher being very close to the 30th lemming when 30th lemming starts to build.  So there is a timing relation between the basher and the 30th lemming, and changing where you started bashing will affect that.

6
It looks to me like you started your basher much too far to the right in that video.  The dent he creates goes way past the leftmost vertical column of metal block.  The dent cannot be that far right, otherwise when builder tries to build to seal up the dent (which is 2 pixels in height, and thus needs 2 build bricks to seal up), builder will stop building after laying down brick that fills just 1 of the 2 pixels, due to the check for ceiling.  If you see the Lemmix replay, the dent created is barely visible, lines up perfectly with leftmost column of metal block,  and is gray in color (the latter due to some non-land pixels from the graphics of the hangman trap).

If possible, please make the video start all the way from the beginning when the level just fades in.  Like in this video, I think your basher started wrong, but I can't confirm because assigning the basher is not included in the video.

7
In Development / Re: Lemmings, Drugs, and Rock 'n Roll
« on: January 16, 2020, 10:43:38 am »
Can you show what it looks like for the same level as in the first picture, if you swap it with the L3 Lab's water?

FWIW the shade of green in the first picture looks fine to me.  Using the L3 Lab water there may well be too green, for a tileset that seems to have relatively muted colors (it seems mostly gray and white).

8
Its time to analyze some more version difference between lemmix and SNES and its might explain why i cannot make slide glitch with lemmix setup.

I cannot figure out what you are trying to tell me with those pictures. ??? Maybe a video would explain things better?

The build bridge over the hangman trap (built by 2nd lemming out) is solely to keep any lemmings from getting killed by that trap, and serves no other purpose.  The exact position of that bridge doesn't need to be pixel-perfect to where you see in Lemmix, but the bridge should start more to the left (ie. don't start it too close to the trap), to avoid the 30th lemming out bumping his head on that bridge while he is trying to build his own bridge (the one that would eventually trigger sliding).

The build bridge by 30th lemming that eventually triggers sliding, is started at the bottom of the basher tunnel, so I'm not sure what you are doing with those pictures, I don't see the basher tunnel in them. ???

9
But i tested digger-basher difference. On SNES system you have to take this basher one pixel later than Lemmix. Otherwise this picture setup will hit with metal pillar of the middle level on SNES version.

If you are talking about the metal in the middle separating the left and right sides, I just tested on SNES emulator and bashing underneath that is working fine, basher does not get stopped by any metal.  Just like in Lemmix replay, you need to dig down 9 times (ie. the dig pit will be 9 pixels in height) before bashing.  But, as I also emphasized multiple times, on SNES you must start digging one pixel more to the left of where you see in Lemmix replay, which would mean the digger on SNES would actually take out a tiny bit of the metal left of him when he started digging.  If you don't start digging in the right place, the basher will not be creating the "dent" for sliding at the right place later.  The dent must line up exactly with the leftmost vertical column of pixels of metal (of the metal block to the right of the hangman trap).

I really don't see how your basher is getting stopped by the metal separating left and right sides, nor how that would even be affected merely by shifting the digging/bashing left or right.  Or maybe I just don't know what you are trying to tell me.  If you are still having the problem, please show me a video of the problem happening.

The basher's stroke takes out pixels of land over several frames.  The first frame that does that will create a 1-pixel dent, but that actually won't work for sliding here (the step leading up to the dent is too short in height).  The next frame of the basher will create a 2-pixel dent (they will appear gray in color, coming from the non-land pixels of the hangman trap) that does work for sliding here.  So make sure you assign builder to the basher at the correct time.

The 30th lemming out that will start building near where the basher is, don't line him up based on where basher is (since on SNES the basher will be 1 pixel more to the left compared to Lemmix), line him up using the pattern of pixels in the ground, and match the position exactly as in Lemmix for that builder assigned to 30th lemming.

10
Good job on Mayhem 10! :thumbsup: I may actually need to look at the level for DOS again, I know the variation you used to setup sliding is possible but have not yet explored it in detail for DOS, looks like it may also help improve the record for DOS, or at least provide improvements to one of the other DOS challenges for this level.

Taxing 4 might my next progress. I look those miners working very well and also goal bug so if we can perform slide glitch 13 skills might are very possible on SNES. Here is still much troubles, because lemmings coming very different vs DOS and SNES. I personally not managed that slide completely on SNES, but its might requires more looking.

I have attached a tweaked version of the level for Lemmix that works a little closer to SNES, and also a 13-skill solution replay for that version that incorporated the execution improvements mentioned in a previous post.  To view the replay using the tweaked version of level instead of DOS original, download the 0304.lvl file into same folder as the LemmixPlayer.exe, then in the main menu, press F4 and then use the "3" key on the keyboard to toggle the "look for LVL files" settings to ON (and then press ESC to go back to main menu).  This would tell LemmixPlayer to load 0304.lvl for Taxing 4 instead of the original version.  I've added an animated flag to the tweaked version of level, on the right outside of the main area of level; you can look for that flag to confirm it is the tweaked version of level that was loaded into Lemmix.

The main differences addressed by tweak version of level is to move the entrances slightly so the lemmings come out exactly same places as on SNES (otherwise they come out a pixel further right on SNES as compared to DOS), and also to fix the order in which lemmings come out so that it is SNES's left-right-left-right, instead of DOS's left-right-right-left.  It cannot account for the SNES basher reaching one pixel further, so on actual SNES you need to compensate for that, by making the lemming that digs and bashes start digging one pixel further left than depicted in Lemmix replay.

The release rate changes is to change to 54 after 8th lemming comes out, and then to 56 after 32nd lemming comes out.  (Around the time of 32nd lemming out is also when you soon needed to assign builder to 30th lemming, so you can use that as a reference for when to change to 56.)  The 30th lemming that comes out will end up doing the building that eventually triggers sliding glitch, and 34th lemming out will get slid up.  You must use that 30th lemming to ensure correct timing; track it by eye as soon as it comes out so you can tell it is that lemming (and not someone else) when it reaches the exact spot it needs to build from.  Almost all of the builders used in the solution must be placed pixel-perfect locations, including where you assign builder to 30th lemming (which may be a little hard to see in the replay since it's so close to the basher at that moment).

While this method avoids the problems with the hangman trap, there are still two small timing elements to be aware of:

1) On the left at the start where you turn the digger to a basher, you should assign the basher more on the late side, after lemming has dug down 9 times but before the 10th time.  This slight delay in making the assignment plays out later when you assign the 30th lemming out the builder, near where the basher also is at that time.  The goal is for the basher's stroke to take out parts of the bridge started by that 30th lemming, so that other lemmings will go under the bridge instead of on it.  That way they can actually reach the step that they can do sliding from.  If basher is assigned too early, not enough of the first brick of the bridge will be taken out, and other lemmings would just end up walking on top of the bridge, and cannot do sliding.

It is unfortunate this timing remains, but it should be slightly more forgiving compared to original DOS replay using the blocker, where the timing of the basher assignment also directly affects the timing of successfully sliding up 34th lemming out and would need to be frame-perfect.

2) Although you no longer have the danger of the hangman trap, near the end where you build up to the ceiling slope created by miner, if you have bad timing, some lemmings may get stuck at the moment the last build brick is laid down that touches the lower boundary of the ceiling there.  This is a much smaller time window of danger compared with building over the hangman trap like in the original DOS solution, but it means you still have to be a little careful in when you assign that builder, to avoid hitting the bad timing.

About mayhem 6 9 skills could be probably theory possible on SNES, but its fact you canĀ“t releaserated sharp like DOS. So this will be really hard progress.

BTW im also interested see just a minute levels replays. At least Just a minute part one. DOS 2 skills vs SNES 4 skills. I think 2 is definitely impossible on SNES, but how about 3 skills?

After some more analysis with Mayhem 6, my tentative conclusion is that the release rate changes in DOS solution are essential.  It is what creates enough distance between the digger and the crowd, so that the crowd doesn't overtake the digger before he has dug down far enough (and he has to do that digging further right than usual so that the steel [metal] can stop the digging).  Since those sharp release rate changes are not doable on SNES, you may instead be forced to leave the release rate pretty low throughout the solution, in which case you may end up running out of time (and then you may still have problem creating enough distance for the digger, now that you are much more restricted in what release rate values you could be using).  So at the moment I suspect it will be impossible to adapt DOS solution for Mayhem 6 to SNES.  If there is a 9-skill solution on SNES, it would likely look quite different from the current DOS one.

As for Just a Minute parts 1 and 2, looks like the Lemmix replay attachments were lost so I've added them here.  I'm pretty sure they cannot work on SNES.  The SNES timer runs down faster such that when on DOS/Lemmix it still says about 7 seconds left, on SNES you are already out of time.  The DOS solutions all have only maybe 1-3 seconds left on the timer if I recall correctly.  Also their sharp release rate changes are pretty essential I think.  I haven't analyzed thoroughly but I think those solutions implicitly rely on leaving the release rate mostly at 99, so that all the lemmings can come out well before the basher has gotten far enough to the right.  On SNES you can change release rate to 99 okay, but then you can't change it back down sharply to a lower number at those strategic times like you see in the DOS solutions, that are done specifically to avoid bad timings observed for specific lemmings.

11
Engine Bugs / Suggestions / Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« on: January 13, 2020, 06:49:32 pm »
I think what Strato meant was "if the platformer is more like Lix's or Lemming 2's", where the placement of the platform is always above the ground level.

12
As I said, I needed to take a break this weekend.  I'm back.

The method in your videos isn't fast enough compared to DOS, for two key reasons:

1) You let the 3rd lemming out float much longer than minimum.  Since you can't start the sliding until at least after he lands, the later he lands, the less time you've left to get the safe landing ready.  The 3rd lemming out should ideally be assigned floater at last second.

2) In your method, the 3rd lemming out ends up the one that would build to trigger sliding.  In contrast, the DOS solution has the 2nd lemming out wound up ahead of the 1st lemming out, while the 3rd lemming out, upon landing, merges with the 1st (and those two gets slide up).  The 2nd lemming does the building to trigger the glitch.  This ends up faster because by the time 3rd lemming lands, the 2nd lemming is already ahead of him, and therefore can get to the column and start building sooner.

I think you will need to find a way to set up sliding that follows the two points above, in order to maximize the amount of time you have to get the safe landing ready.

I did not have a chance yet to dig out old backups to try to find my notes on the SNES release rate/timing information.  Will see if maybe I can get to it later today.

13
Engine Bugs / Suggestions / Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« on: January 12, 2020, 02:47:51 pm »
2. I have had an instance in one of my recent levels where someone actually used the jumping up in the air and not grabbing a ceiling to initiate a glider earlier off an edge by using the shimmer near the edge.

You could probably prevent this by adding a hazard like fire or similar, that is high enough to not disturb walking lemmings but low enough to be hit by any lemming attempt to jump up.  Admittedly, it may look a little ugly, and in some cases may also not be possible to do if the placement interferes with other things in the level.

14
Engine Bugs / Suggestions / Re: [Suggestion] Shimmier usage limitations
« on: January 12, 2020, 02:35:56 pm »
I'm a little late to this, but it feels like the level needs to make its intended usage of shimmier more essential to the solution so that it cannot be so easily bypassed.  After all, we are not talking about a mere jump or turn around like a jumper or walker, we are talking about the ability to go along the ceiling to get past things like gaps and traps you would otherwise have to build/bash/disarm/etc. to get past.  How is that if a player used the shimmier elsewhere for a skill cancel, the part that actually requires the essential use of shimmier can then be so easily bypassed?

In other words, seems like generally speaking, the shimmier should be less backroute-proned compared to a skill like walker.  If the player "wasted" a shimmier for skill-canceling or delay purposes, the consequence of then not being able to actually shimmy across a ceiling somewhere as intended by the solution, should be severe enough to prevent the player from solving the level.  Whereas it seems a bit more difficult to have it like that for a walker.

It is completely unavoidable that if you allow lemmings to attempt to shimmy at basically any time, there will be many more opportunities for player to use the skill for skill-canceling or delay purposes compared to the showcase use, simply because the showcase use requires specific terrain setup in the level to make it useful (or in some cases, even possible at all) to shimmy across a ceiling.  Whereas skill canceling or delaying can pretty much be done anywhere.  So one could consider limiting ability to assign shimmier for the skill-canceling cases (or more accurately, for cases where ceiling is not reachable), although at this point, you will also likely end up breaking many other existing levels that do rely on this behavior.

15
Quote
Again, note that on SNES the start had to be handled slightly differently compared to DOS.  I'm still searching for my notes on that

What you mean about this when you talking about its will bit different on SNES than DOS. I'll definitely need more information with this if this level requires some version differences?

Specifically the following differences:

1) The SNES basher reaches one pixel farther, so in order to create the 1-pixel dent at the thin vertical column as seen in the DOS replay, on SNES you have to start the basher one pixel more to the left compared to DOS.  This in turn will cause the lemming to lay 3 bricks instead of 2 when you assign him builder after the dent is created.  As a result it throws off the timing of various things, and you need to adjust the release rate changes accordingly to compensate.

2) The DOS replay has a sharp release rate change from 3 to 47 after first lemming out, followed by 47 back down to 1 after second lemming out.  The first change is barely doable on SNES but the second change definitely is not doable on SNES (because the third lemming comes out much sooner after second lemming, due to the release rate having changed to 47).

When I tested on SNES years ago, I believe I ended up with a different method (for setting up sliding glitch) that wound up looking vaguely similar to this replay I just posted last night (an improvement to the former DOS record), although I don't think I used a digger on SNES (but I guess you could if you want), I seem to remember I still used basher for delay purpose.  The important thing is having more attainable release rate changes for SNES.

I too could use a break.  I'll continue try to finding you the correct numbers/timings to use on SNES, but maybe only after the weekend is over.

But its quickly look all easy levels is max pointed and only sliding glitch levels are remain.;) So i have to be ready consistent my skills with sliding glitch.

Mayhem 10 and Taxing 4 are the only two levels left where the current DOS record uses sliding glitch.  Sliding glitch had also been explored previously for Taxing 27 and Mayhem 26, but in both cases failed (so far) to produce a better record in terms of fewest total skills used to save most lemmings.  But there were also a few levels here and there where I still need to test out adopting parts of DOS solutions to SNES, I have to go back to the post I made for comparing SNES and DOS.  But it's fair to say there is likely nothing easy left at this point, sliding glitch or no.

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