General Loap progress discussion topic

[namida]

Note: This topic originally began as the Loap announcement topic on the "Other Projects" board, before Loap got its own board.

Early days yet. No promises this will eventuate - many of my projects do not, as you all would know by now.

But I figured - I'm wanting to learn some 3D graphics / coding anyway, and need to do something as a practice / learning project. The ideas that came to mind were either this, or a 3D remake of my RPG. The latter would require far more modelling / etc work than I feel confident taking on at this stage, so the L3D clone was the way to go. It started as "display some blocks, make lemmings walk around", but the more I did on it, the more I felt that I wanted to make it playable, too.

So, yeah! I figured this is far enough along now to at least make a topic. It's still in early stages yet; currently, it can display blocks, which lemmings can walk around on. Said lemmings can exhibit exactly three behaviors at this time - walker, faller, and splatter. They respond correctly to the level layout (eg. things they can ascend / can't, or deflector blocks) - there is one intentional difference from L3D's behavior here, not just a pre-set path or similar.

Hopefully, at some point, this will become a fully playable L3D clone, easy to use on modern PCs (and unlike NeoLemmix, it's being made using a cross-platform framework so Linux and Mac builds are a very realistic possibility), with better camera controls. I should stress that this is not going to be a Lemmix-style clone, in other words, it will NOT replicate L3D's physics exactly; it'll be more like somewhere between Lemmini-style and NeoLemmix-style, a bit closer to the Lemmini side.

(And if you were wondering about the name? It comes from "Lemmings on a Plane". You know, because a plane is a 3D surface, but also a subtle reference to "Snakes on a Plane"... also the only other names I could think of either weren't that great or were too close to "Lemmix".)

Here's a few videos showing what I've achieved so far. Be warned that I decided to have a bit of fun with the textures and video names/descriptions in a few cases. These links are in order from oldest to newest, and there are no new ones that I haven't shown off on Discord for those who were following there. More videos are posted throughout the topic.

https://youtu.be/t_QOBhVdqzM
https://youtu.be/FX8bKtbAuaI
https://youtu.be/4wlU9nYyl3k
https://youtu.be/DhTJhBc2cV4
https://youtu.be/MaNz7OD_0n8
https://youtu.be/kBX-FvxV6xg
https://youtu.be/misH9oaJjxU

---

There is no release build available (even of an experimental / demo nature) yet, however the source code is available here: https://bitbucket.org/namida42/loap/

[namida]

And another video, this one showing an L3D level (semi) successfully being imported.

https://youtu.be/a45_qEf29F8

[Simon]

Looks promising, with a considerable part of the work already in place: You can import the terrain from L3D and have similar lemmings physics on it.

Good luck with the many details that will now follow!

Loap is a nice name, wise and short because one will type this often, and no danger of audible confusion (Lemmings, Lemmins, Lemmix, ...).

lemmings
walker, faller, and splatter
one intentional difference from L3D's behavior

What is the difference? I'd guess that you want to make falling (after walking off a cliff) straight vertical, with no lateral velocity, and have them land at the exact same lateral coordinates regardless of how far they fell.

Max ascension for walkers is 1/4 of a square block, I imagine you want to keep that. (Do we have a name for that 1/4 of a square block? One slab? Or would that term already denote a builder slab...)

-- Simon

[namida]

What is the difference? I'd guess that you want to make falling (after walking off a cliff) straight vertical, with no lateral velocity, and have them land at the exact same lateral coordinates regardless of how far they fell.

There is a pyramid block shape with a 1x or 1y : 2z slope (Z is up). Despite that a slab (essentially a 1:16 slope) is walker-friendly, this pyramid shape is not. I have decided to allow walking on this shape, provided all other usual conditions of being able to move are met (ie: not stepping up more than one slab to get onto it).

As far as Loap is concerned, one "slab" is in fact just a block. Editor would need to abstract this away, but under-the-hood, a block is simply 4 times as wide/deep as it is tall. The various L3D block shapes (as well as three additional ones I have added - two that feel like they were missing in L3D but were prohibited by technical limitations of its engine, one of these being the vertically-inverted version of the other; and a narrower regular block intended for use in many of the cases where the aforementioned pyramid's non-walker-friendliness was important to physics).

[WillLem]

Looks great so far!

[namida]

One thing I want to make clear - except for those in my pack (because it's my pack ), I will not be adding support for importing custom L3D resources. I will add support for importing custom L3D levels, but anything else custom - including levels that *use* custom assets - would need to be done manually.

In other words - if you're making custom content in anticipation of this (and I don't advise that in general), make sure it's only levels, using only the official resources (texture files, etc). To avoid any doubt, Winterland resources are fine; and custom metablocks are fine as long as they only use official textures.

Also, it will not be possible to export Loap levels back to L3D - conversion will, much like with NeoLemmix, be a one-way thing.

[Ryemanni]

Aah, this is looking great. Lemmings 3D is my all time favourite lemmings game so seeing this project (even tho it's still in it's early phases) is such a joy. Best of luck with it, and I will be sure to support it all the way.

Back in the day I also dreamt of making a Lemmings 3d "remake" or something similar, but that never happened due to life and other game projects. I still do wanna tackle that idea at some point tho, but it wouldn't be a Lemmings game anymore but something original instead.

You mentioned you're using a cross-platform framework for this. Which one is it, if you don't mind me asking?

[namida]

You mentioned you're using a cross-platform framework for this. Which one is it, if you don't mind me asking?

MonoGame.

Screenshots unrelated but show some progress.

[namida]

Lots of splatting!

https://youtu.be/j5ICH7thByY

[NieSch]

Wow, this is awesome. Good luck with it.

[namida]

Hidden face culling.

https://youtu.be/R1OMgICzBC8

It was pointed out to me that it would probably be more efficient with modern GPUs, to not cull the hidden faces. However - aside from that doing this eliminates some rendering artifacts, too - this claim relies on the assumption that overlap data is calculated every frame. In fact, even the overall block mesh is not calculated every frame - both the overlap data and block mesh are calculated only once at the start of the level (in the future, this will extend to "recalculated every time a destructive skill changes the terrain", but this is still far from "every frame").

[namida]

Sky graphics are working!

First, the normal type - where a sky meets the sea. Does this one look the best when pitching vertically? No. Does it at least work and not have an abrupt cutoff into empty space? Hell yeah it does.
https://youtu.be/iaKiTw9fSK8

And then the full-height type, found in levels that are "in space". This one was much easier to do.
https://youtu.be/ZFe-oTgwHt8

[namida]

And one last thing for today.

https://youtu.be/p2UZSeVu-Mg

[Ron_Stard]

Amazing! I've never played L3D because of the chaos of the camera views, the controls, and also because of the blocky graphics. But this clone seems to be very smooth and enjoyable!

[namida]

I added another skill.

https://youtu.be/s0P2D3SnKn8

(No way to actually assign them yet; it's just debug code that automatically makes every 2nd lemming a floater and every 3rd lemming a climber. I have some ideas for how to address the graphical glitches.)

[Ryemanni]

This is looking great!

For some reason I'm getting a bit motion sick from the way the full-height type background moves though, and I don't remember this happening to me in the original game. Other than that, things are looking good so far.

Do you have any plans for the camera movement? Will you try to replicate the keyboard movement from the original game, or come up with something a bit more modern/intuitive? Personally I always imagined Lemmings 3d would be great with modern fps game controls; you move with WASD, raise and lower with space and lctrl, point at things with your cursor and just click and assign skills to lemmings. Think minecraft creative mode controls.

[WillLem]

And one last thing for today.

https://youtu.be/p2UZSeVu-Mg

This one looks really good

With the "in space" one, the stars seemed to remain stationary so that it was the level itself that was rotating rather than the camera... is this intended? The "blue sky" ones move around as the camera moves instead.

[namida]

This is looking great!

For some reason I'm getting a bit motion sick from the way the full-height type background moves though, and I don't remember this happening to me in the original game. Other than that, things are looking good so far.

Do you have any plans for the camera movement? Will you try to replicate the keyboard movement from the original game, or come up with something a bit more modern/intuitive? Personally I always imagined Lemmings 3d would be great with modern fps game controls; you move with WASD, raise and lower with space and lctrl, point at things with your cursor and just click and assign skills to lemmings. Think minecraft creative mode controls.

The original game doesn't allow you to pitch the camera upwards. But you're not the only person who doesn't like my workaround, so I guess I need to come up with another approach...

[namida]

The block structure is now rendered in full!

https://youtu.be/2GYQvbWrPKE

[namida]

I added a level select menu. A very, very hacky one for now, but it at least means I can jump between levels without having to restart and recompile Loap every time.

Also, while the menu itself is hacky and shitty, the underlying code (ie: the parts that would generalize to all menu screens) are not. I'm developing them based on a similar model to NeoLemmix's menu screens (on the technical side, I mean, not necesserially the visual side), as once the foundations were all in place that was really easy to work with and customize the menus, add elements, even integrate hotkeys.

https://youtu.be/8ZYZL6a0IGc

[namida]

Today's achievement is the preview screen.

https://youtu.be/4VmB3zOtsyo

I've unfortunately found some situations where the render ordering is giving some awkward results. I do have some ideas for how to improve the algorithm to deal with this, but the ones I've already tried have not had good results - some are minor improvements but not enough to justify the performance impact, others just failed altogether. I have just now thought of yet another one - while I can never be sure until I test it, I have high hopes for this one's visual results but strong concerns about what the performance impact might be.

There again, I've already spent a lot of time on this, and the current result isn't awful (just has some oddities in certain cases), so perhaps I'll spend more time working on other aspects. I feel like implementing exits is overdue...

[namida]

Rendering issues are still being a pain in the ass. I've got blocks pretty much perfect, but lemming sprites aren't working quite as well just yet.

This video shows both some examples of the issues lemming sprites are having, as well as the latest feature I've implemented - splitters.

https://youtu.be/CZgdWJRWLwo

[namida]

Exits are now working. Code is also in place to identify which lemming is being clicked on, which has made it possible to actually solve some levels now (specifically the Climber and Floater levels from the Practice rank) - with the caveat that the "assignment" isn't a true assignment, in particular it's not limited by the skillset, it's just "if you click a lemming, it becomes both a climber and a floater".

Still, this is probably the point at which I'd say this finally, to at least a slight extent, counts as playable.

https://youtu.be/w5rrsW9A0n0

[namida]

As I've mentioned on Discord, my current thought is that I will release the first test version when the following features are supported (on top of what's already supported):
- Enforcing the skillset
- The Blocker and Turner skills
- No-effect objects (ie: OBJ.xxx and ANIMOBJ.xxx)
- Postview screen

This should allow the following levels to be solvable:
- Practice levels for Blocker, Turner, Climber, Floater, Virtual Lemming and Splitter
- Official Fun 11 "It's A Classic"
- Official Tricky 33 "Shadow Maze"
- Official Mayhem 66 "Family Tree"
- LP3D Fun 6 "Indoor Maze"

(There are a few additional levels that provide, but don't require, Bombers on top of the above. These should also be solvable provided you don't make mistakes.)

Not much of course, but it's a start.

[namida]

Well, we can tick off one of those requirements now - the skillset is now enforced!

https://youtu.be/GVgrHwOFqgU

[namida]

Another goal down.

https://youtu.be/KZNIGyWs2cs

[namida]

And another! (There's also a couple of other new things that weren't preconditions for a test release in this vid, too.)

https://youtu.be/uDmc7tKyFPE

This just leaves...

Spoiler

the Turner and a postview screen

...before I can consider a test release.


Also, on further thought, I'm actually seeing no real reason why a postview screen is necessary for a test release, so let's strike that one off too. It's still of course a todo in general, but not a condition for a test release. The other remaining thing still needs to be done first, though.

[namida]

No new features, but a few levels I haven't shown off before.

https://youtu.be/Ylp_zfcvOzY

"Alilemms" from the official game, "Blazing The Trail" from LP3D, "Jelly Climber" from the official game, and "The Arena" also from the official game. The first and third aren't completely correct at this stage, the others are better.

[namida]

And we have turners now!

https://youtu.be/RmdB5pNLYGM

As mentioned, I will put together a demo release - and the key word really is "demo", as in "demonstration" (ie: don't expect to play many levels on it) - very soon. There's a couple of bugs I feel I may as well iron out first, and I also want to add a proper version number somewhere in-game just so that all release versions clearly indicate one. I'll likely work on this either later tonight or early tomorrow.

However, I have decided that I will immediately move this to open-source. Currently there is no licence specified, but if this did matter to anyone, I intend to put it under the MIT licence. The source code can be found here: https://bitbucket.org/namida42/loap/

[namida]

Kaboom.

https://youtu.be/io5SG6jmJxA

[Silken Healer]

Nice, you now have the nuke

[namida]

And sound effects, too!

https://youtu.be/bsmoL4wA_fw

[607]

Nice project, and impressive progress!

[namida]

All nine skills are functional now (though bugs still exist with most of them).

Here's a couple of videos showing actual solutions to a couple of levels from my pack - be warned that these show the actual solutions, so don't watch them if you want to avoid spoilers.

Tricky 40 "Data Corruption" https://youtu.be/SiOSSfy6YAs
Taxing 53 "Complimentary Lemmings" https://youtu.be/yjJ6Hm2I8YE

Ice and interactive objects, and RR adjustment, remain unsupported at this stage, though the intent is to support all three.

[Simon]

Lovely progress!

Single-minded development over days and weeks, where you pour all free time into one complex project, is pure bliss. Enjoy it! It can take years to find such a project for oneself. And with DireKrow, you have a profound playtester and thorough bug hunter.

I'll skip these spoiler videos from real levels. I haven't looked into your 3D pack yet. And it's getting to look like Loap will soon be the better engine to play your pack.

-- Simon

[namida]

This video is a spoiler to an official level, specifically Fun 12. The level mostly revolves around bomber timing; the one non-bomber skill is extremely obvious where to place, so even if you haven't played the level this isn't really a huge loss.

https://youtu.be/XLsYN0tB3-0

[namida]

Another preview video. This one doesn't show off a successful solution to any level; it shows the first thing people generally try on Mayhem 77 "Critical Path" (official), which doesn't actually work.

https://youtu.be/dzESZNdGvMk

[WillLem]

I can't get this to work. I've updated .NET but the program just hangs for a few seconds and then fails to open. Not sure what's going wrong or how to troubleshoot it.

EDIT: Never mind, it was because I didn't have the music. It's working now

[namida]

Postview screen coming along nicely.

https://youtu.be/kUCyvmIVFiY

(Video spoils one possible solution for a very easy X-of-everything level from my pack.)

[namida]

Three of the traps - the bear trap, the squasher, and the trap from Taxing 55 / Taxing 58 / Mayhem 70 - are now implemented.

https://youtu.be/CgxF41CXwP0

The other two traps shouldn't be far behind.

[namida]

You've probably seen in the release builds by now that the rest of the traps, and the teleporter and rope slide, are working now.

I just added springs to that list too. That leaves trampolines as the only physics feature not yet implemented.

https://youtu.be/DntVYffR5-8

[namida]

Trampolines are now supported too. Not quite perfect to L3D, but then, few things in Loap are.

https://youtu.be/Tv7oIEUFqJc (Spoils the solution to an official Mayhem level; Mayhem 69 "Over The Top".)

At this point, at least in theory (more might arise due to minor differences / bugs with actual testing), there are only two publicly-released levels that Loap does not yet support, both of them from the official game - Fun 1 "Take A Dive" and Taxing 49 "Which Trampoline?", due to antisplat blocks not being implemented yet.

[namida]

Loap now has one of NeoLemmix's most well-known and useful features.

https://youtu.be/GGjKicvHpIQ

[namida]

Loap now has one of L3D's most iconic features.

https://youtu.be/_7KtvNQ-z8E

(Spoilers for Lemmings Plus 3D Fun 20 "Arctic Mission".)

[NieSch]

I just downloaded the latest test release. It's absolutely awesome!!

[namida]

Mostly thanks to DireKrow, it is now confirmed that all official levels are solvable in the latest build of Loap.

As for Lemmings Plus 3D, all Fun and Tricky levels are confirmed solvable except for Tricky 22 "Redirect Loop", which is unsolvable due to a physics bug. The Taxing and Mayhem levels remain mostly untested, although Mayhem 79 "Power Distribution" is also unsolvable, in this case due to an intentional physics difference (once I do a proper conversion of the pack, I will adjust this level as necessary to restore solvability).

The only levels I can think of off the top of my head that are explicitly confirmed solvable in LP3D Taxing and Mayhem are Taxing 45 "Deathspring Tunnel", Taxing 56 "Ultimate Lemja Warrior" and Mayhem 70 "Detour Shot". This does not mean the others aren't (except, as noted above, Mayhem 79 "Power Distribution"); just that they're not confirmed either way - it is very likely the vast majority of them are solvable. (EDIT: On further thought, Taxing 53 "Complimentary Lemmings", Mayhem 64 "Candy Corner" and Mayhem 71 "Kingdom Of Chaos" are also confirmed solvable.)

[NieSch]

I said it before but I'm loving this project! One thing I miss is the sound effect of happy and sad Lemmings after finishing a level: https://youtu.be/UqPKF9D993w?t=370

[namida]

As per some discussion on Discord, at this point I feel the important matters before I can declare Loap to officially have reached a stable ("1.0") version are:
- Options menu (including hotkeys)
- Fixing all known physics bugs
- Adjustable sensitivity for mouse camera movement
- "Trap mouse in window" option (and correspondingly, a key to release it)
- Mass replay checking
- In-game records display

Additionally, while I don't consider it a dealbreaker if I don't make any progress, I would like to at least try to improve on some of the rendering glitches.

In particular, I do not intend for a level editor to be a "1.0" feature; that will come later. In the meantime of course, L3DEdit can be used to create levels (albeit subject to the limitations of what DOS L3D supports, for the most part; as well as limited to official / LP3D graphics files and no support for tileset mixing).

[namida]

V0.0.22.0 implemented almost all of the above. The only things that remain:
- Hotkey configuration menu (the rest of the Options menu is done)
- Mass-replay checking
- In-game record display
- If possible, improvements on the visuals (I've made a couple of attempts at this, but so far no success)

[namida]

I've begun working on the mass replay check.

Unlike NeoLemmix, Loap is written from the start to completely seperate rendering from game logic. This should mean the mass replay checking is much faster in Loap than in NeoLemmix. This in turn may even allow for, in a situation where it is not clear which level a replay file is for, simply brute-forcing it to find out (ie: testing the replay against every level until one is found where it solves it - of course, this only works if the replay actually solves a level, but "does not solve any level" is still slightly more helpful than "can't find level").

It will be a bit simpler than NeoLemmix's replays in a couple of ways. In particular, it won't keep track of the user who made the replay (and by extension, won't use this to determine whether or not to update records). To allow the "mass replay check to restore progress" feature, Loap will instead provide a specific option to enable or disable record-overwriting during a mass replay test.

[namida]

Aside from a few minor tidyups (things like giving a visible clickable link to it from the level select menu, rather than it being hidden behind a hotkey), the mass replay check is now implemented, though not merged into the master branch yet (though as no changes have been made on the master branch since I started working on it, the chance of conflicts is 0%).

It works very nicely; as expected, faster than NL's check. The brute force identification (if a replay can't be matched to a specific level, just try it on every level until one is found that it solves) is practical but a bit slow - probably not great for entire collections of replays with wrong/no info to identify the level, but certianly good enough to sort out the occasional case of a broken reference - but an option is given to disable it.

[namida]

In light of this, the remaining things for a V1.0 milestone are - note that I've added some new ones:

- Hotkey configuration menu
- A few more tidyups / optimizations on mass replay checking
- In-game record display
- Select walker hotkey
- "Crack" graphics on blocks from destructive skills
- Support for custom assets via a "translation table" type setup
- If possible, improvements on the visuals

[namida]

I've completed the improvements on mass replay checking, and implemented the translation table type setup for custom assets. As a key difference from how NL's worked, the translation tables are part of packs. This is due to the reliance on index numbers in L3D, which might be a bit limiting (and annoying to avoid collisions) if multiple sets of custom assets were to pop up.

It would probably be quite tedious to put a custom translation table together by hand though, so I'll consider whether to make a tool for this (likely one that takes one or more Loap assets as input, and converts them to an L3D-format file that L3DEdit can use + a translation table to allow loading the created levels into Loap).

On a side note, it'd also be possible using these (together with the right OGG files) to create a patch to play the CD music tracks on L3D levels, while leaving other packs untouched. Of course, this will only work until the point at which Loap switches to custom formats (although the majority of L3D level files can be used direct from the official game if one wished to - only a very small number needed modifications, and those usually for cosmetic purposes).

[namida]

And, crack graphics from destructive skills are in! I attached a screenshot, or if you want to see it in video: https://youtu.be/tBIGOav9QFo

This now leaves (including one new one):

- Hotkey configuration menu
- In-game record display
- Select walker hotkey
- Spawn direction indicator for entrances
- If possible, improvements on the visuals

EDIT: And, select walker hotkey is done too. As well as its inverse, "force select non walker". Some things to note - I grouped Slider in with Walker here as a special case; while Shruggers are also a special case and can be selected regardless of which (if any) of these hotkeys is held. Yes, these go a bit against the literal definition, but I feel that in practice they'll be more useful this way.

[namida]

I implemented records display on the preview screen a while back, so that one's out of the way. Likewise for spawn direction indicator. That pretty much just leaves the hotkey config menu now, although I'd also like to do replay insert / suspend mode - and in fact those will probably come before the hotkey menu. I'll probably release V0.0.24.0 before doing the hotkey menu, as there's a few fixes I'd like to get out there (including a few physics fixes someone else contributed).

And of course, the ever-present dream of fixing or at least reducing the visual glitches, but I still don't have any useful ideas on how to do that while still running at an anywhere-near-respectable framerate (and even solutions I've tried that aren't great framerate-wise - some are on the order of 2 or 3 FPS - aren't all that huge of an improvement).

[namida]

So, the hotkey menu is finally implemented. That's everything checked off that I considered critical before releasing a stable version.

With that being said, aside from of course more testing, I do want to see if I can do anything about the rendering issues, as well as some of the minor performance issues that have been noticed. Definitely though, we're getting there! (I will note in particular that a dedicated editor is *not* on the list of things to do before releasing a stable version. If that happens, it will come later; use L3DEdit for now, it works.)

[namida]

I finally finished putting together a collection of replays for the L3D levels in Loap.

Note that two of these - "Five Towers" and "Castle Peralus" - at least, won't work on the current test build. They'll work on the next one, or if you build from the current source. This is due to a physics fix regarding climber-bombers.

[namida]

When the option to lock the mouse while panning / rotating the camera is enabled, the performance can be a bit awkward in 0.0.25.0 due to the new code for this functionality. Next update will have some significant improvements for this.

I've also found a bug where the camera can't be rotated while in virtual lemming mode using the mouse. I haven't figured out the cause (or even narrowed down if this is related to the new code) yet.

[namida]

I re-tested all replays, given that I'd implemented a few bugfixes while making them. Out of the 186 replays, only 7 failed:

(L3D Mayhem) Five Towers - Confirmed as due to adjusting the climber-bomber physics to match DOS L3D.
(L3D Mayhem) Final Maze - Confirmed as due to fixing a turner-bomber bug.
(LP3D Tricky) The Nightman Cometh - Confirmed as due to fixing the "builder stacking" bug.
(LP3D Taxing) The Ancient Lemming Curse - Confirmed as due to fixing a turner-bomber bug (not turner-on-bridge bug as initially suspected).
(LP3D Taxing) The Claw - Confirmed as due to the turner-on-builder-brick faller momentum bug being fixed.
(LP3D Mayhem) The Grand Arch - Confirmed as due to the turner-on-builder-brick faller momentum bug being fixed.
(LP3D Mayhem) Aerial Assault - Confirmed as due to the turner-on-builder-brick faller momentum bug being fixed.

Five Towers was the only one that needed an entirely new replay; the rest all just needed some tweaks.

[namida]

I just uploaded V0.0.26.0. The main thing holding me back from going RC at this point is the rewind bug of unknown cause - since I don't know exactly how to trigger it, it's very difficult to say if my attempted fix has worked or not, though for what it's worth I haven't encountered issues since making that fix.

The one other feature that might make it in before RC, is Clear Physics Mode. Depends how complex it turns out to be to implement - all I've done so far is create some graphics for it.

[Banner]

Just discovered this. It looks awesome! I'm having a bit of problem getting it to run at the moment though. It keeps saying it needs .net core. I've tried installing various versions and none seem to work at the moment. Is there a particular .Net version it needs?

[namida]

.Net 7.0 should be the one it needs.